Who is a Muslim?

Urstruly,

As I have pointed out several times … it is difficult to discuss religion with someone … who has assumed the role of its “thaekaedar” … and insists on killing a person for merely leaving it ...

So you now want to defend finality of prophethood with your life. Perhaps you should verify if this concept is even a valid one … before getting too excited. You also cannot explain what gives you the divine right to declare others non-Muslims …

It is this holier-than-thou attitude … that caused fanatics to nail Jesus to the cross … to chase Muhammad out of town … to feed early Christians to the lions. Forget the “finality” issue … first try to accept that you have no right to stone an adulteress woman to death … you have no right to kill a Hindu for preaching his religion … you have no right to kill people for blasphemy …

I am no longer joking … but raising some serious points. If you don’t even get this much … why bother at all?


tahmed,

…sahib … I don’t know where you are coming from … although I do think you have issues that you need to take care of … perhaps off-line, lying on a couch, talking to someone diligently taking notes …

urstruly, romair and sattar,

............. i know exactly how prophets are made - i saw one being created right in front of my eyes ............ i am serious, so please don`t blow this off ..........

............. i think all three of you guys are familiar with the city of rawalpindi ............you know where pindora is? ......on saidpur road, before you get to the road that goes from faizabad to pir widhai there used be be a little bazaar in the mid 70`s ... this little bazaar is now a big mess, but that is not relevant to this story about the prophet ............ anyway, in this little bazaar there used to be a schizophrenic faqir who would walk around butt naked - alif nanga - with little kids following him around throwing stones, shopkeepers taunting him and women averting their eyes ............ he was a filthy beggar who would have been locked up in a more civilized society ........... i watched this guy for years doing his thing - chanting allah hoo, abusing people who abused him or simply resting under a pipal tree watching the world with vacant eyes ...............

................ time passed, i moved to the land of opportuinity to pursue freedom, liberty and happiness and forgot all about this poor wretched soul ............. many many years later, i went back to pindora and was amazed to see a mazar (dargah) complete with temple priests, flags, mujaris and pujaris in the middle of the bazar .............. it seems that somewhere along the line the people of pindora had discovered that the naked faqir was actually a prophet and when he died they buried him under the pipal tree and set up a shop for god ................ a prophet was born

...... now, think about it - the people of pindora are probably intellectual giants compared to the superstitious bedouins who lived in the paper-less society of bethlehem and mecca hundreds of years ago ..............pindora had electricity, television and quite a few of its inhabitants had read a book or two ............ as a matter of fact they are probably a lot more sophisticated than the people of qadian a hundred years ago .................

sattar2 #142 you write to a female chowk poster (after having failed to start a gossip about her) `` I don’t think she was offended … right Zahra Jee…? ``

I think you are trying to pick up women on chowk while discussing religion. Ha! Ha!

PS: Better keep an eye open for begum sattar who may be standing behind you with a chhittar even as you read this.

Romair

I trust that the Pakistani nation, the Muslim ummah and you and your fellow beleagured countrymen have survived yet another difficult day of my presence on chowk? Koi Pakistani cheenti kahin na mar gayi ho.

The point is, before expecting S. Asian women to appreciate such jokes in the spirit of equality, guys need to first make sure the society in which they live also appreciates such jokes about women in the same spirit.

An airline passenger doesnot have the freedom to stand in an airport queue in the US and joke about being a terrorist as freely as he can stand at his office cooler and joke about being a terrorist. American society is as illogical as S. Asian society you see.

uhoh, that is a three-paragraph post from me. Yeh kya ho gaya! Better sound the air-raid warnings in Lahore and Riyadh, just in case.

Romair,

The big question is … how are contemporaries of a prophet supposed to know about his truthfulness. For Jesus, as an example, Quran now attests to his truthfulness. But what about then … when he appeared?

First thing worth mentioning is that … there are no, never were, any nature defying, smoking gun, miracles performed by any prophet. No prophet ever raised the dead, walked on water, flew to heavens accompanied by Gabriel. These notions are fairytales … and they mark the end of human intellect and beginning of superstition. Islam, in its true sense, appeals to one’s intellect, asks believers to ponder and reflect, and does not subscribe to superstition.

Character of prophet before he claimed prophethood

This is one of the criteria mentioned in Quran … when it states …“prophets have been raised from amongst you”. This suggests that if you have known a person to be truthful and honest, and he claims prophethood, this claim deserves earnest scrutiny. This is supported by the example of Prophet Muhammad as well.

When Prophet Muhammad started preaching openly, he gathered people and asked them if they think he is an honest man. When people replied in affirmative, he went on to give them the message of Allah. However, as Quran fully supports, it is after claims of prophethood that opposition starts to revile and abuse prophets, and starts circulating rumors about him.

This description fully fits Mirza Sahib’s example. People around him accepted his simplicity, honesty, and nobleness of his character. But when he claimed divine messengership, many later resorted to abusing and reviling him. What is the truth? It is up to each person to find out on his own.

Coming of prophets foretold earlier prophets

Hints of following prophets are often made by earlier prophets. We find evidence of this in the Torah, which mentioned “coming of glory” of God from specific geographical regions. In the Old Testament (OT), we find additional prophecies about coming of future prophets.

Later, as events unfolded, Jesus and Mohammad came from the very regions mentioned in OT. Other prophecies about prophets were fulfilled in the coming of John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya of Islam), as explained by Jesus himself.

Similarly, recorded ahadith of Prophet Muhammad mention coming of “Issa-ibne-Marriam” in later days of Islam. This is a metaphor … foretelling the appearance of a prophet in Islam, who will bear resemblance to Issa-ibne-Marriam. As recorded in the New Testament, Jesus also mentioned his second coming to the world in the later days.

Let’s go back to the Old Testament … to clarify something:

One of the books of OT mentions Prophet Elijah being lifted to the sky. Another book of the OT mentions that Elijah will reappear at the time of the Messiah. When Jesus claimed to be this Messiah, he was asked about descent of Elijah. Jesus responded that John the Baptist had come in the spirit of Elijah. In other words, Elijah has passed away like any other mortal soul, and cannot return. The prophecy was about the coming of a prophet who will bear spiritual resemblance to Elijah

Issa-ibne-Marriam did not bring a new law. He came 1400 years after Moses, and brought people back to the law of Moses. He came to a nation (Israelites) that had become corrupt and morally decayed, and was occupied by a foreign nation (the Romans). There is more … but that’ll do for now.

Similarly, the second coming of Issa-ibne-Marriam … is a prophet of Allah … who will appear 1400 years after Muhammad, when followers of Islam would have become corrupt and morally decayed, and they will be occupied by another nation (the British, as it turned out to be). He is not to bring a new law, but to bring the people back to the law of Muhammad.

Recorded ahadith of Prophet Muhammad also mention the “Hind” region for the appearance of this prophet. In one of the hadith, the town of “Qada” is mentioned (which was the original name of Qadian). Other recorded ahadith mention the timing of this appearance in the 14th century of Islam, and that his community will be singled out by the remaining 72 sects.

Ahmadi-Muslim view is that … this prophet was Mirza Sahib, who appeared in the 14th Islamic century, to reform Islam. Exactly as the hadith stated, his community was singled out and declared non-Muslim by the remaining 72 sects.

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I’ll post more later. But a note about hamidm … he is an a-ok dude. I don’t mind his bottle … it is between him and his gods … he nurses no anxieties about anyone’s moral index … and I think he is a better human being that almost all muslims I have come across. I personally think he is a sufi … but doesn’t really know that …

Hamidm sahib … if you ever claim prophethood, I’ll be the first to accept you. But I do have a little request … can you be a little lenient on the bottle and … and an occasional muttah …? Also, if you can reduce fasting to only one weekend a year … the one falling on fab. 29 …

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Hey … hey … hey … romair … I never read anything about ZahraJ’s significant other … or any such thing … my joke had nothing to do with any of this … it was only a light-hearted joke built on her jabs on eastern men … nothing more … nothing less … it seems to have gotten more attention than it deserved … I don’t think she was offended … right Zahra Jee…?

ZahraJ #various: ``Once upon a time, when I was critiquing the boorish behavior, a senior fellow commented, ``guys like to joke around.``

``In other words, they are jokers?`` I inquired.

Afsoas Sud Afsoas... ``

Now that the religious debate is reaching a conclusion, a few comments on what you have stated.

You are correct in stating that men are jokers. It is an in-built mechanism that allows them to survive in the stressful societies, without taking each other too seriously. It is this aspect of the male psyche, and not their physical superiority, that has traditionally given men an edge over women, in the society. At least in my opinion.

It is because of this, that (speaking from personal opinion), ``damads`` get along so well with, ``susars,`` while, ``bahus`` and, ``saass`` are always at each others throats. And, brother-in-laws are out watching cricket and rugby together, as, ``saalis`` plan their next political attack against each other.

Even the most feminist of women, will agree upon the above definition of the above relationships to be true.

I can make a bet, that despite of our throwing abuse at each other, if hamidm, Urstruly, sattar2 and I were to meet in person, we would hit if off. Occasionally, Urstruly would declare sattar2 a non-Muslim, and sattar2 would declare him a fanatic mullah. I would declare hamidm an Uncle Tom and he would declare me thoughtless. We would punch each other in the nose, but then would go back to cracking jokes. And would part as friends.

Why? Because men have learnt to be jokers. They never try to be artificially politically correct. If hamidm or Urstruly or sattar2 called me thoughtless, at most, I would take a swing at them, with my fist. However, if they ever tried to be politically correct and nice, and called me, ``sweet,`` I would hit them with a baseball bat.

This, in my opinion, is something women need to pick up on, if they want to walk, ``shana ba-shana`` with men, and want to demand equal rights. One cannot have equal rights, and still expect unequal politically correct respect. One has to become a joker, and not take one`s self too seriously. Otherwise, those women who are trying to beat the men at their own game, will always remain in a state of depression, due to their sensitivity.

Now to the remarks about you:

Obviously, they were not due to ill-will. They were inquisitive. You could consider them offensive. Or you can consider them a joke. Or a question. Or an honor, that, due to your achievements, men have accepted you as an, ``equal,`` and are willing to joke with you (within limits, of course) in the same manner as they would with their close friends, i.e. they have welcomed you into the club, which they gaurd so dearly.

In my case, I read sattar2`s comments, that you have a white boyfriend. Obviously, that is news (for this site, since it is rare). First I thought, it was a joke. They I remembered that on another thread, you had mentioned that I had forgotten to list, ``significant other,`` in my list of Valentines. Then I remembered your various interacts, where your views indicated that you had a low opinion of Pakistani men (or certain Pakistani men). I put two and two together, and concluded that maybe you had a non-Pakistani significant other. I didn`t pass a value judgement on it. Just asked a question, in a somewhat joking manner.

Now, if you were a man, I would never apologize to you, for such an innocent comment. Nor would you ask for an apology. You would just laugh it off (and probably consider it a compliment). If you were a feminist American women, you would have simply answered, in a Yes or No, and would laugh it off also. And would probably crack a joke about me. If you were a conservative Pakistani women, you would be greatly offended, hence I would never have made such a comment. But you are an independent Pakistani women in America. I guess, the boundary for comments/jokes for this category has yet to be defined.

So, I can apologize to you. But in that case, please keep in mind, that I will expect an apology from you, everytime you make a derogatory comment about Pakistani males. I will not just laugh it off, and encourage you to make more comments, like I currently do.

Or, you could consider it an innocent, well-meaning inquiry/joke, from a friend, and laugh it off. And realize that men only make such conversation with women, whom they accept as equals, in all aspects.

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Hamidm #128: sir ji, indeed, you are a very thoughtful person ............``I consider Muhammad to be a prophet because the Quran says he is. Otherwise I wouldn`t consider him one. I obviously never met him. Had the Quran stated that Abu-Bakr was a prophet, I would have considered him one. ``

You are the master of quoting things out of context. Before declaring your prophethood, could I ask you to first read the fully reply, before making statements. If you don`t then people will not take you seriously. I stated the following:

``I consider Muhammad to be a prophet because the Quran says he is. Otherwise I wouldn`t consider him one. I obviously never met him. Had the Quran stated that Abu-Bakr was a prophet, I would have considered him one.

This brings us to the question on whether the Quran is a genuine word of God or not. If it is man-made, i.e. made by a man named Muhammad, then the whole religion of Islam goes out the door, since Quran is its foundation. So there should be a lot of research done on the genuineness and authenticity of the Quran, itself. That could be done by trying to find, in the Quran, thoughts, science, history, etc., which would have been impossible to have been known to man at the point, when it was written. Hence proving it is not a work of man, but of a superior entity.

Similarly, research should be carried out to prove that the Quran has not been changed, since being written, even it is proven to be the work of God i.e. people have not added stories to it to benefit themselves. For example, Abu-Bakr`s name has not been replaced with Muhammad`s etc. This could be done through carbon-dating, excavation finds etc.``

You, for some strange reason that only you can explain, took the first para, and ignored the rest. As you can tell, I was actually pointing out the fact that to accept Muhammad as a genuine prophet, we must establish the genuineness of the Quran. And if it is proven to be non-genuine, then, as I stated, ``the whole religion of Islam goes out the door, since Quran is its foundation.``

Which part of this did you not comprehend?

Just out of curiousity, could I ask you why you quoted out of context? Was it a desire to bring Winnie the Pooh into the discussion? Or was it a desire to find some comment, under which you could highlight your superiority, and paint all others as fools? I hope it had more to do with the former than the later.

Sattar

If not me try to understand the sense that hamidm and Romair are trying to hammer into you, in their own ways. Hamidm has actually hit the nail on the head by making the point how any tut poonjiya (asswipe?) can claim prophethood if unchecked. Going by the current rate if we Muslim start subscribing Quadianiat there will be at least three dozen prophets every year claiming as such. And in next 50 years Islam in this part of world, as Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) conveyed to us, will remain no more. As a matter of Islam will be wiped off the face of earth. Don`t you now understand why colonial british, evangilists, missionaries and templars planted this malignant tumor in us which eats us inside out. That is the reason we Muslim protect this concept of the Finality of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) with such vigor and aggressiveness and if need be with our lives.

Logically, speaking if we as Muslim deliver you what you want, it can be in two forms:

1. We let Quadianis be, claiming that to each his own.

2. We start subscribing Quadiani doctrine.

In case of case 1, our loss will be as explained above and in addition in Quadiani eyes we the Muslims, all 1.2 Billion of us will still be Kafirs, bound for hell because we do not subscribe to Quadiani doctrine.

In case of case 2 we face a predicament that hamidm has brought into the fore.

Hence, the only position of Muslims viz a viz Quadianis is an uncompromising position.

Personally, according to my knowledge and according to the Islamic principles of governance I would go as far as them having a separate legislature and their own law in Islamic Republic of Pakistan, since Islamic law in principle do not apply to non-Muslim.

I would even favor to allow them to proselytize their religion to non-Muslim subjects of Islamic republic.

This fair deal is only possible in an Islamic state. If you remember in recent past in Soviet Empire claiming yourself something other than commie used to cost you a very long trip to Siberia and now in Western democracies claiming yourself Muslim costs you a trip to Guantanamo Bay. So which one is fair? your call.

Escapist:

Once someone asked the same question to a Pathan and Pathan said: Kho cha haN aik hazrat Adam tha, aur woh pathan tha,

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122 by Romair on March 4, 2004 5:44pm PT

Now you are biting more than you can chew. Do not get carried away by your own discourse ...the concept of prophethood is too serious a topic to be discussed in a frivilous manner.

HamidM Various Posts

AuroN jaise lakho haiN, hamidm jaisa koi nahi !

Regards and carry on your battles with ignorants.

Hamidm ji

I volunteered to be your disciple if you include elephant headed God as one form of otherwise formless God.

Regards

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Hamidm:

Since you are the most chivalrous creature on Chowk, it`s expected of you to serve tea to all the women on board. I only take either white or green tea with no sugar or salt.

Please make sure that it`s well brewed. I am very particular about my tea.

You are more than welcome to consult others on their preference.

Thanks for reminding the women on board that chivalrous creatures are still alive and aren`t buried under some rocks and mountains for later discovery.

Best Wishes!