Rights (un)Defined

It is nice to read something of this sort.
I really appreciate that.
The problem with our society we give our fuzool rasm-o-riwaj more importance then what our religion has told us.
Islam has given rights to both the genders, men is created to be lived as a men and women as women both have their rights, and if we follow those rights the life will be easy but here comes the culture, (what we have adopted from Hinduism where wife has to die if her man dies...It might be not practiced now but it was there.)

Other thing that is in our culture is too much is the EGO... in men and in women as well.
Women should be educated enough so that she can think of what is wrong and what is wrong, and to know things which will help her in growing her children.
for example: our mothers and fathers don’t know what’s on internet and how harmful it could be if not used correctly but they really don’t know and they don’t stop their children as they don’t know.

Zahar,

I know! This world is confusing. I go both ways and like it.

What do you think????

Pl. don`t dear me. I like informal relations.

So, are you ready to proceed??

Dear Hossp:

Before I proceed, I just want to confirm your gender. Your previous post was slightly confusing in that regard.

Thanks.

#44 by huma_mir

i dig down deep and present a totally new way of looking at things and you discard it as ridiculous with no counter? anyone can wear hijab; my view is that in the process they opt out of evolution, and perhaps this is a perfect example of god acting in mysterious ways...

Zahra Baj!!!!

a) They are overbearing and control freak.

Excellent observation... This does sound like my ex-wife but my current is not far behind. And when I tell her I am gonna have second wife she tells me She is my second wife...Now I can`t have second again!!! What a life.

b) Lacking in leadership and a strong back bone. Cannot stand up for their ownself...forget about being the protectors of anyone.

True too... thats me. I do need protection... from you know who...

c) All phoon phaan is supposedly in store for their better-halves.

Right on! Yeah! She Phoon-Phaans me everyday...

d) Misuse implementation of religion to manipulate women vs. using religion to become better human beings and contributing to their respective societies.

...All women manipulated men every day...Every married man knows that....

...But we were talking about Muslim men and their two seengs...weren`t we????

What is the other reason?????

Dear Hossp:

Thank you for your genuine inquiry.

I would love to walk you through the reasoning. Yes, the Muslim Guys have two seengs on their heads.

a) They are overbearing and control freak.
b) Lacking in leadership and a strong back bone. Cannot stand up for their ownself...forget about being the protectors of anyone.
c) All phoon phaan is supposedly in store for their better-halves.
d) Misuse implementation of religion to manipulate women vs. using religion to become better human beings and contributing to their respective societies.

The above are a few highlights of why they need assistance, in fact constant support. And, let me emphasize that support can come from all channels, but if it comes from the Muslim Women then it will be real sweet. For if the Muslim Women have to beat the crap out of the recalcitrant Muslim Men then they will have more patience to do so. There is another reason as well, but I will come back to it later.

Hope the above helps.

echoboom:

I guess lately I am causing way too many tears of joy...I guess I need to be careful.

Thank you for the reminder.

“The Muslim Women of today ought to be understanding and kind towards the Muslim Men of today. Simple!”- ZahraJ

Zahra Baji! Why can’t non-Muslim women be kind and understanding to Muslim men?? Or Muslim women be kind to non Muslim men? What makes Muslim men different than other men? Do Muslim men have “doo Seeng” instead of the one other regular men have?

#37 by inquilaabi

Initially, I did not realize that Hafsa is an O level student, otherwise I would not have come down on her this hard. I just hope that this will help her start reading some more books instead of just believing in the doctored religion that is being taught in Pakistan.

I never said that the Quran is an outdated book.
There is no book in world that is outdated except may be the phone book if that is a book at all.

What I think is that the Quran is a book of religion. It is not a book of Mathematics, Sociology, or psychology. It does not have solutions to all the problems that are out there. There is no point in bringing up the Quran when the issue has no religious connotations.
In Pakistan, mullah and their likes have been saying that the Islam is a complete code of conduct. When confronted with specific questions, and when they really have no answers, they start astaghfir ullahing you.

There really is no point in putting the Quran in everybody’s face when there is no need to do that. In this case, the Quran has nothing to do with women’s rights, as when Quran became the religious book, the women’s rights issues in the current form did not exist. So, how the Quran would have solutions for issues that were not even visualized some 1400 odd years ago????

#43 Jang - your posting are, frankly, rediculous. I mean, its really a waste of time for you and others to put so much focus on a piece of cloth. If someone believes that he/she has to always wear some bandana, or a piece of jewlery, or anything he/she feels like, let them. I do not wear hijab. But if i have many friends who out of their free will have chosen to do so. And I respect them for it, just like i respect those guys who show up in public wearing piercings all over their body.

Your stupid and illogical discussion about ``hijab`` plays with symatntecs, and really adds nothing to anyone`s intellect. Please move on to a topic you know something about.

regards

Internet is the best Hijab.. Mashallah! No one knows how you look.

On a more serious note, hijab is dangerous from evolutionary perspective. God has made us animals, and asked that we evolve over time. Sexuality is a really big part of it. Through evolution, we have lost our sense of smell, which we used in past to select our mates by sensing mysterious (offsourse god-ordained) signals. Now only thing that is left is looking. Taking it away is seriously tampering with the bussiness of evolution. For example, I have heard from previous generation women commenting on curvy-fuller form girls to be better as child-bearing bahus. These are important visual indicators, learned over time. Remove these, and we will evolve as blind.

ZahraJ:39
``The Muslim Women of today ought to be understanding and kind towards the Muslim Men of today. Simple! ``

---

Thank you ZahraJ (wiping tears of gratitude)

An off-line discussion between Hafsa and yourself would be quite beneficial. It is muslim women who should talk more to othe muslim women. Muslim men have been as much on the receiving end in a world torn apart by `` from hereon vices-are-virtues`` ``bad-is-good`` and ``peace-offensive`` type of techno-lingo-crap.

40:
Care to elaborate what is ``going to the other extreme in US``. by your own standards. How much did you consider deviancy from Qura`an enough?

& if you are not a muslim (names don`t mean much on net) why do this going extreme bother you anyway?

An observation not backed by stats.....

I have seen children of very rich and liberal going ``mulla`` in US.

And the children of highly religious in Pakistan going to the other extreme in US.

And I have witnessed some Pakistani women wearing full Niqab, ``gloves`` & socks at all times when out of home. And doing purdah from their husband`s friends and husband`s relatives.

Some socialogist can explain this phenomenon better - but it seems to have something to do with ``rebellion``, ``seeking attention``, ``seeking sympathy`` - or just gone wacky under the cultural isolation/pressures of the society.

Hafsa,

Who is your audience here?

[The truth is that our religion, Islam, gives her more rights and elevates her status to a much higher degree than any feminist movement can. ]

Irony is that many Muslim Women get carried away by the ``status elevation`` and feel quite happy in that make belief world. Real world demands women to come out and face and withstand all the challenges. It does not jeopardize their femininity. It prepares them for further growth and development which is not a current priority of many muslim women of today. Reality check is required here. Last but not least, the men of today are also not capable of handling the real world challenges by themselves and require women to pitch in all facets of life. So, kur bhala ho bhala. The Muslim Women of today ought to be understanding and kind towards the Muslim Men of today. Simple!

hafsa,

............ if you want to walk around in a death shroud and are willing to be accepted as half a person in a court of law or get half your brother`s inheritance or get beaten ``lightly`` every friday by your husband or share your husband`s bed with three other women, you are more than welcome to do so ............ i am sure you will find lots of men who are more than happy to go along with it .............. but please don`t promote this nonsense for other women - they deserve better; they deserve to be treated as human beings, not as chattel or pets ...........

Minhaj & the rest of the confused world,
Is the Quran really outdated? If you look at it, most religions could be considered outdated but how is it that some of us who consider ourselves to be of `the faith` can move forward even if we accept and follow the sacrality of the words in such `outdated` books.

Today I was thinking about how ideas progress with time, and how each `religion` progresses from a previous one when it appears. Thus Christianity, with Christ`s focus more on spirit and love than Law progresses a little further than its predecessor. One would think that Islam did that as well. One would think that Islam was more progressive than regressive ` Is this my maligned western education talking? Perhaps. But I remember Islamiyat classes as a child, and it makes me wonder and question those who are ready to dismiss Islam altogether because it has been misinterpreted and taken over by ignorant minds and hearts.

If we should be so inclined to promote the interests and the rights of women, should it not be because of what we believe? Does morality not play a role? In the end, is it only secularists, atheists, agnostics and the demoralized `commies` who have the right answers as to what the interests and rights of women are? Do any of us have the right answers? I think not.

When the Quran was written, and when most if not all of the holy books were written, they were written keeping in mind the culture they were in at the time. Those cultures may appear as barbaric to some, but those people lived through it, they managed somehow. That is not to say that we in the 21st century should return to those times.
I would question the fact that the Quran-e-Majid or the bible do not serve the needs of the modern woman. How much has `humanity` itself served the needs of many people in this world. And why do you think it is that in times of war and aggressive conflicts, riots and the like, one of the first glorious achievements of soldiers and men is to rape and murder women? How bloody barbaric is that?

Points to ponder? Hypocrisies to overcome? Miles to go before everyone sleeps? You decide. I think of revolutionaries like Dorothy Day, a former Marxist anarchist turned Catholic who even if she was problematical to the left in her wanting to `save` them, recognized and acknowledged their humanity. She recognized and applauded the left`s greater commitment to the needy and poor of a particular neighborhood, greater than those of her new faith. She was relentless in her outpouring to those who struggled for equal rights, fed the poor, spoke out against war, and all this was enhanced by her reading an `outdated` book. That holy book served her needs in the modern world. And if that could happen, then there might be, just might be hope for the Quran yet. And perhaps for people as well.

And the struggle continues!

Hafsa Ahsan,
The Quran is outdated. It does not serve the needs of the modern woman. You are more interested in promoting Islam than you are in promoting women. You are so charged up in your quest to promote your religon that you did not even bother to think about all the disturbing things you wrote. For example Lady Slave. What the hell is that? Do you know that this is the 21st Century? How can you be comfortable with an ideology that skirts around slavery? Islam gives no clear verdict on Slavery! And you are promoting this. WHy? Then you wrote some more on how Women can be hit if no marks are left behind. What in the name of Tariq Road are you talking about? Again any rationale person or psychologist will advise against physical violence. But all these things are okay with you. Because you cleverly juxtapose them against the very human and natural weaknesses of free socieites. Then you wrote some weird suggestion that girls should find online jobs so they can work from home! What you are trying to do is make girls feel guilty about the simple pleasures of life like going out, wearing what they want, persuing a career. You are working against women and for the promotion of Islamic ideology. Your middle classs Islam is dieing a slow death just like Sharukh Khan in that movie Kal Ho Na Ho. He died very slowly. And the audience was sick of him. Because you know the girl had found a better hero who was healthy, wealthy and possibly younger. But Sharukh Khan made everyone cry and he sniffed and he choked and he said his goodbyes. And my khala said to me: Yeh Jaldee Se Kyoo Nahee Mar Jata?

Minhaj Arifin

suzaine:
Check out this article on Hijab:

The Hijab
by Zeba Khan

Fundamental Islam is fundamentally flexible and quite easy to implement, while still allowing room for individualism and expression through dress. There are no prohibitions for women`s dress on color, cloth, or style so long as they fit basic requirements. Those requirements are:


That the body is covered in a cloth that isn`t see-through and won`t expose it when standing in the light.
That the clothes are not tight or figure-revealing.
That the clothes do not imitate the religious or national dress of people who aren`t Muslim. Islam is against wanna-be-ism in its followers.
That they aren`t a proud display of glamour or wealth.
That they cover the body even when the wearer is walking or bending over.
That the clothes cover everything but hands, face and feet. That includes the neck and ankles, and additionally the drawing of the scarf over the bust.
That they aren`t men`s clothes.
Personally, I`ve never met a Muslim woman who wrapped her scarf quite like anyone else did. There are always minor differences, individual touches applied in the folding, the draping, or the styling. It takes a trained eye to recognize and appreciate these touches, so don`t be surprised if you have no idea what I`m talking about.

I first took up Hijab in America of all places, a country not famous for highly civilized notions such as modesty and dignity. Being a student in a multi-ethnic school in Chicago, my wearing a scarf would not normally have attracted any attention. But, I was a novelty. For two years I was `normal` and most people had no idea I was Muslim, let alone half-Pakistani. My outward appearance gave no indication of my faith, I couldn`t be told apart from any of the hundreds of white American Christians I studied with. For all public appearances, I was a white American, and when I started practicing hijab and wearing a scarf, it was a shock to those around me. Teachers and peers who noticed my transition and who were well-enough acquainted with the `normal me` asked the `fundamentalist me` what was going on. Fundamentalist me didn`t quite know what was going on either, but I started looking for answers to why Islam was big on modesty. The more people asked me, the more I was forced to look. The more I looked, the more beauty and logic I found in Islam. How I dressed had a great impact on my faith, surprisingly not vice-versa.

Before I actually researched the Islamic mandate for Hijab, I was thoroughly brainwashed with the idea that modesty was oppression and man`s attempt to safe-guard his possessions, his women, from those who would seek to steal them. My idea was just slightly off, Hijab is woman`s attempt to safeguard her sexuality against those who would seek to exploit it, visually or physically, or to misuse its power. It`s not because woman is weak, it`s because society is weak. Think about it, everyone knows that sexuality has power, why else do you think sex-appeal is so successful in advertising? Sex appeal is frequently abused in all levels of society in much of `modern` civilization. Advertisers use a woman showering on TV to sell soap, to smile and wink and make us want to buy a certain brand of biscuit. In the US even advertising geared towards children is tainted with dancing girls and exposed skin, because the influential powers of sex appeal work on people of all ages.

One common misunderstanding that people have is that Scarfies are conceited and place excess worth on their looks. So much so that they cover it all up because no one is worthy of seeing it. In actuality, it`s Scarfies who are normal and non-Scarfies who lack self-esteem, who lack appreciation enough to guard their own beauty, to prevent it from being misused and overemphasized as their only quality that actually matters. It`s not that Scarfies are conceited, it`s just that everyone else has low self-worth.

Imagine being so scared of rejection that you refuse to show your real face in public, you cannot leave your house without painting on a fake one. Imagine being so scared of having your brain and personality being discovered as substandard that you squash yourself into bras that elevate your breasts and underwear that gives your butt extra oomph just so that the attention is painfully drawn away from your heart. Imagine feeling so worthless as a human that you have to try to sell yourself to the world, because unless you put on a show, they might not buy. I`m not saying that women who wear makeup and revealing clothes are substandard, I`m just saying that they think they are. A make-up wearing, push-up bra sporting woman who reads this will most likely be insulted that I tell her she has no self-worth, especially since she thinks she`s drop-dead gorgeous. The problem is, she only thinks she`s gorgeous when`s she`s made up, smashed in, or pushed out. Take it all away and this same woman refuses to leave the house. If that`s not low self-worth then I must not know what it is.

Now clear your mind, and imagine being so self-assured that you can wear a tent (a real two-poled, staked-out affair in olive drab) every day and know that people will look beyond the canvas and into your heart and mind to determine your worth. Imagine being so confident in who you are that you can come to work in a large barrel with eye-holes cut out, and your employers will still praise your work and men will still sheepishly ask for your hand in marriage with ever having seen into your barrel, without you ever putting on a show to sell yourself. The barrel and tent theory isn`t a joke, all you have to do is substitute the barrel and the tent for modest clothing and a scarf.

There are two ways a woman can deal with her appearance. The first is to let herself be ruled by it, and the second way it to let the woman rule it. In the first instance, where the woman is ruled by her appearance, she cuts her sleep short for more time in the morning to put her makeup on before she goes to work. She purposely turns her skin cells cancerous for a `healthy` looking tan, and lets her mental health be constantly under siege with questions about her self-worth and the stress of competing with other women. It`s no wonder that thousands of women in the US are bulimic or anorexic, or just obsessed about their looks. Does this make my butt look big? Oh no, my lips are too pale! Too pale for what? Allah makes no mistakes. I have to lose ten pounds, or else! Or else the men who stare recreationally at my butt will be grossed out and then no one will think I`m pretty! Then how will I get married? This business suit has to fit just right. Otherwise I won`t be in good standing at the office. Ugly employees might scare the customers away..)

In the second instance, where the woman rules her appearance, she puts her priorities in order and chooses much-needed sleep over the forty-five minutes it takes to get dolled-up in the morning. She decides not to put herself at risk for cancer by bleaching or tanning her skin, she doesn`t give herself anemia or anorexia trying to be visually pleasing to the thousands of men who see her every day and don`t give a damn (unless she happens to be bending over at time time to give them a good show...which she isn`t). She wakes up one hour before work, total, and washes her face, gets dressed, eats breakfast and leaves. She eats to maintain her well-being, and has a healthy attitude towards food and also towards herself as an intelligent human. She knows that she has a right to be thought of as wonderful no matter what she looks like on the outside, and she`s in conscious rebellion against the eye-candy culture of the US and other `modern` civilizations.

In a civilized culture such as Islam, the façade of unnatural beauty is seen as a lie, and natural beauty is seen as a private affair. Emphasis is placed, not on external beauty, but instead on internal beauty, of which all women have equal potential. (All men are created equal, why not, therefore, all women?) Where unnatural beauty is caked on, rubbed in, or drawn on, natural beauty is cultured by nobility of character, mercy, honesty, compassion, intelligence and other such Islamically recommended traits in Muslims of both genders.

Islam switches the gauge of woman`s worth from outer beauty to inner beauty and brains. How? Since sexuality is no longer a public affair, the yard stick has to be taped next to personality and intelligence instead. Anyone who doubts this has only to try and rate the anatomy of a bunch of Scarfies against each other on a scale of one to ten. It`s impossible. You can`t judge their physical attributes when you can`t even see them. A woman who wears a scarf allows herself to be judged only by who she is, what she says and does, how she interacts, and not on what was allotted to her physically.

On the other hand, women who let their beauty and anatomy hang in the breeze can be easily compared, scrutinized, dissected and categorized. A `beautiful` woman (with make-up, inadequate clothing, mental complexes involving her self-worth) is a good woman regardless of whether she is a malicious gossip or a tyrant in her own home. An `ugly` woman (with no makeup, modest clothing, realistic attitude about the impermanence and irrelevance of beauty) is a bad woman, no matter how kind, how intelligent, how compassionate she is.

In all this, a `beautiful` woman feels as though she somehow had a hand in her creation, is proud of her looks, acts as though her good features are the direct results of her hard work somehow, and not at all to a combination of genes completely outside of her sphere of influence. One wonders; what`s the point of turning yourself into a walking aphrodisiac to begin with? Why start the mower if you`re not going to cut the grass with every man on the street? It certainly doesn`t contribute to a woman`s dignity! If a woman wants her worth to be judged by internal merits, then she won`t over-shadow them with a display of flesh that historically, biologically, and inevitably arouses lust, and not respect.

Islam frees women from being every man`s eye-candy, and clearly states that her appearance and sexuality are not public domain. They are a privilege bestowed upon only those who were worthy, and worthiness is determined by whether or not one is fit to spend a life-time with you. (That means your soul mate-your husband) The only other people who can see it would be those who were unaffected by it, like your brothers, father, blood-uncles, grand-father, and other women, lesbians obviously not included.

Islam has shown itself to be absolutely the most uplifting religion for women, period. Given the right to vote, right to own, right to inherit, right to speak, right to be judged on internal factors, Islam rescues woman kind from being overshadowed by her sexuality and gives a woman back her humanity.


It will definitely clear things.

hossp:
=>Where did I say anything about degradation of women? Islam does not provide for Women’s right and that is the fact.

when you don`t recognize the rights of another person as a human, that`s as good as degrading the other person.


=> Primary Importance and Priorities are two different things.

Unfortunately you did not get the sense of my statement. Primary importance of a woman is given to her house and children, that was what I meant by the original statement.


=> Hazrat Khadija inherited some business from her late husband and employed a famous man to run that business. She never did it by herself. Anyway, what Islam has to do with her trade? It was there before Islam. After Islam I believe Prophet was running the business, if it was still in existence. There are a lot more questions about this story of the Prophet’s marriage to Hazrat Khadija then what you have read in your grade three books. I will be glad to bring that up in discussions if you so desire.

Hazrat Khadija was still the incharge. She employed people herself and if she did get people to go for her on trade, it was by her permission only. And she inherited it from her father, not husband.


=>Hazrat Aisha was 9 or 13 years old (depending on what you believe) when she married the Prophet. You need to show evidence that she had even read Quran what to talk about teaching others. If she was teaching the Quran to Sahaba, then she was defying the Islamic rules about “Mohrims”. I think you also need to point out the source of your claim.

Read the whole life history of Hazrat Ayesha (RA). Here is something reproduced from my O`Level Islamiat book:

``After the death of Prophet Muhammad, she spent 48 years of her life preaching and propagating the message of the Holy Quran``

A leading jurist, Imam Zuhri says, ``Hazrat Aisha was the most learned person among the people. Senior and learned Companions used to consult her.``

Abu Musa Ashari says, ``We never faced any difficulty, on which when we enquired from Aisha we did not get information relating to it.``

Umar bin Zubair (Companion) says, ``Aisha was the most scholarly person of her time in Quran, fundamentals of religion, fiqah, poetry, medicine, Arabian history, genealogy, and discrimination between lawful and unlawful things.``

Imam Zuhri further says, ``If the knowledge of all men, and the wives of the Prophet (SAW) were put together, the knowledge of Aisha would exceed it all.``

``She used to convery decisions on religious matters, even during the days of the first three Khalifas.``

Nabia Abbot, writer and teacher at the Univ. of Chicago: she stands shoulder to shoulder with the eminent jurists of that time.

And you say ``she had even read Quran?`` Astagfirullah!!!!!!!!!

She preached in full segregation. Exactly like the women who used to come and hear Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when he preached in the Mosque.


=>It was not Hazrat Safiya alone, who took part in wars. It was always a tradition to take women to war so they can cook food and do the laundry. I am sure with war all around Islam many women did that duty. That did not ensure any women`s rights.

Hazrat Safiya FOUGHT and even killed a soldier. Go and read Islamic history! I dont rem which battle it was, but I`ll look it up, and post it here, when I find it.


=>If you make a claim that he did house work you need to provide the reference to it. Offhanded comments and unsubstantiated arguments just bring the quality of a work down and that is what we have, an article that has no value and is full of unsubstantiated claims in other words lies.

Lies? Interesting! So the rights of women which are supported by Quran, lies....?

And as for references, check any book on Seerat-e-Tayyiba (The Sealed Nector etc.) and you`ll find them. I don`t have that book so I cant quote directly. But it`s there alright!


=> What my refuting of the Quran has to do with it? If the Quran condones beating then the Quran does not support women’s right and thus is not the source to claim that Islam provides for women’s rights.

From just one ayat (without reading the tafseer I am sure) you are generalizing that Islam does not provide for women`s rights! Don`t you think that`s more of a sweeping statement than all those put together in my article? (sic) And the Quran does NOT condone it; it only gives a conditional permission in ONE circumstance (ONE only - read the tafsir to find out which). And even in that, it is stated categorically: not on the face and not so any marks appear.


=>What the Quran has to say about the Women’s right of:

Choice - of having or not having children.

=> If having children endangers her life, she can choose not to have children. check out www.islam-qa.com - it has a more detailed fatwa on this.

Refusing to have sex with her husband against her will.

=> check out www.islam-qa.com - it has a more detailed fatwa on this.

How Hudood laws guarantee women’s rights?

I think i told you to get a copy of ``Reality of Objections on Hudood Ordinance`` (an urdu publication brought out by Women Aid Trust) if you are really interested in this, and not arguing just for the heck of it. That publication is too long for me to write it here and all of its parts are equally relevant.


With ref to your post #31: Are you saying the Quran is outdated? (Nauzubillah!)

......you can hire a maid for ten dollars an hour and a whore for another fifty!

......... this is a ridiculous argument ............the simple fact that islam allows polygamy and the marriage of a nine/twelve year old with a fifty year old man disqualifies it from being used as any kind of standard for women`s rights in today`s world ............ it might have been okay for unwashed bedouins sharing a tent with their six sheep and four wives, but it is downright insane to use it as a point of reference for the modern wolrd ................ and no, it is not the same as using the writings of aristotle and plato as tha basis of a democratic society - it is comparing apples to oranges ..............

............. talking about women`s rights granted by islam is kind of like talking about the rights of jews as defined by nazism or the rights of blacks and coloreds as defined under apartheid .......... it is based on the principle of inequality ............ and don`t give me this ``separate but equal`` crap !............. the jews who bought into it ended up in a furnace and the blacks and coloreds who saw nothing wrong with it ended up in soweto or swaziland !............ muslim women who buy into this nonsense deserve to be beaten like it says in 4:24 !

............ and oh, by the way, anyone who says, ``the primary importance of a woman is in taking good care of the house and its inhabitants`` deserves to be used as a door mat ............ i hope to al-lah my daughters have higher aspirations than becoming a ten dollar an hour maid and a prostitute who turns the same trick night after night for food and shelter!........... we invented washing machines, dish washers, built in vacum systems, maid services and take-out chinese so that women could do something more meaningful with their lives ............

#32 by malik99


``why intellect deprived people like you pick on Islam, and not on other ``old`` teachings?``
``Quran as irrelevant because its 1400 years old ! ``


I say funky twist!!!!

#31 by hossp - You wrote ``What we have here is that Hafsa is attempting to define those rights from the religious teachings and books that are 1400 years old.``

Listen man, when was the last time you denounced democracy because it is derived from the books written during greek civilization of 2500 years ago?

Teachings of Socratese and Aristotle are a required reading in the progressive and vibrant western societies of today. Teachings of Confuscious which are 3000 years old are an integral part of the up and coming chinese civilization of today. 2000 year old teachings of Buddha move the hearts of millions of east asians in technological advanced societies like Korea, Japan etc. Yet, your enslaved and intellectually feeble mind singles out Quran as irrelevant because its 1400 years old !

The real question is this: why intellect deprived people like you pick on Islam, and not on other ``old`` teachings? The easy answer is because it is fashionable and ``in`` thing to do; because your western masters condone this practice; because critical thinking is not your forte.

Hafsah - In my quest to respond to the western slaves, bigots, and self-hating muslims on this board, I forgot to commend you for doing a fine job in penning this article. It is enlightened women like you who are taking the lead in reforming our corrupt and stale societies, and in re-invigorating the spirit of learning and research in our homes and cities.

I may or may not agree with you on all of your points, but i appreciate the genuine effort you put into writing a constructive article that spawns a constructive line of thinking in readers.

#29 by malik99

“The best advice I can give you is to do a comparative societal analysis of the societies that existed at that time.”

Well! Malik99 it seems that you are missing the context altogether! The issue here is women’s right. Moreover, the context is Women’s right today.
What we have here is that Hafsa is attempting to define those rights from the religious teachings and books that are 1400 years old.

All I am pointing out that the women’s rights have nothing to do with any religion and as you said there is no comparison between the two societies at all.
The women’s rights and the society 1400 years ago were different and there is no point in even claiming that the rules that applied 1400 years ago would apply today too.

So drop the claim that Islam provides for women’s right today, as it does not!!!!

Diatribe or not, the truth often bites.

#27 Inquilaabi - you parrotted exactly my point. That is, it serves no purpose to degrade any religion, be it Christianity, Judaism, voodooism, or Islam. Infact, Koran specifically prohibits muslims from degrading other religions. If it serves any purpose, then perhaps the debate should be between those who believe in organized religion vs those who do not believe in any religion. I have found such debates to be more intelligent than those between, say, Christians and Muslims on which religion is truth.

#28 Hossp - I began to respond to your posting. But then I realized it would be a monumental undertaking. Your posting is indicative of the fact that you are missing the hostorical and social context of the arabia of 600 AD. The best advice I can give you is to do a comparative societal analysis of the societies that existed at that time. It would be worthwhile before you launch into another out of context diatribe.

#21 by hafsa_ahsan

“I agree that most religions degrade women, but definitely not Islam”

All I said was: “Islam and for that matter no religion provides for women’s right”
Where did I say anything about degradation of women? Islam does not provide for Women’s right and that is the fact.

“Primary importance...ask any mother of two small kids what her priorities are!”

Primary Importance and Priorities are two different things.

”Work during Holy Prophet`s time: Hazrat Khadija was involved in trade; Hazrat Ayesha preached the Quran to Sahaba, Hazrat Safiya took part in Jihad...if you haven`t read Islamic History, please don`t make assumptions otherwise.”

Hazrat Khadija inherited some business from her late husband and employed a famous man to run that business. She never did it by herself. Anyway, what Islam has to do with her trade? It was there before Islam. After Islam I believe Prophet was running the business, if it was still in existence. There are a lot more questions about this story of the Prophet’s marriage to Hazrat Khadija then what you have read in your grade three books. I will be glad to bring that up in discussions if you so desire.

Hazrat Aisha was 9 or 13 years old (depending on what you believe) when she married the Prophet. You need to show evidence that she had even read Quran what to talk about teaching others. If she was teaching the Quran to Sahaba, then she was defying the Islamic rules about “Mohrims”. I think you also need to point out the source of your claim.

It was not Hazrat Safiya alone, who took part in wars. It was always a tradition to take women to war so they can cook food and do the laundry. I am sure with war all around Islam many women did that duty. That did not ensure any women`s rights.

``Holy Prophet doing the housework: there are numerous examples from history. Again, if you haven`t studied in depth, don`t assume a thing you don`t know about doesn`t exist.``

If you make a claim that he did house work you need to provide the reference to it. Offhanded comments and unsubstantiated arguments just bring the quality of a work down and that is what we have, an article that has no value and is full of unsubstantiated claims in other words lies.

”Wife beating is NOT allowed in Islam! I never condone it. But one Quranic ayat clearly says that there is only ONE instance when it is allowed. Are you refuting the Quran?”

What my refuting of the Quran has to do with it? If the Quran condones beating then the Quran does not support women’s right and thus is not the source to claim that Islam provides for women’s rights.

What the Quran has to say about the Women’s right of:

Choice - of having or not having children.
Refusing to have sex with her husband against her will.

How Hudood laws guarantee women’s rights?

Inqalabi !
don’t worry about echobum. He suffers from apoplexy. He was taught in a special madarssah and he failed to graduate from there too. He works in some restaurant in Jackson Heights.

malik99
Granted you think the Christian religion is all myth and story, but if you expect your own to show some respect for your own deen, the least you could do is not ridicule others for theirs. You probably weren`t educated at a `western` Catholic school like some of us were, otherwise perhaps you`d know the regard that Mary Magdalene is held in. And that all Christians are `brides of Christ.`

(shudders)

Echoboom. . .
No one is elevating the Pakis to the blacks in the US. Ram Ram. Those Pakis who think that African-Americans and Africans are the lowest of the low? Have no fear, such elevation will not be happening. That revolution will definitely not be televised.

And why the hell should commie-atheists as you say be hounded for their anti-Muslim talk? You aren`t just hounding commie-atheists, you are hounding anyone who doesn`t fit into your worldview. Pakis are yearning for their masters to return? Oye they had to have let their masters go in the first place in order for them to yearn for their return. And you`re going to sit on your high perch, speaking of totaamynahs and tell me that you`ve let your master go? That sounds rather hypocritical coming from someone who is benefitting from the West even as I write this, just as I am.

And no discussion! Wah! You can certainly dish it out but you can`t take it can you? And there is a difference between commies and liberals, as they`ll be so quick to point out themselves. Never ever should the two words be joined together. As for bristling, I can bristle if I damn well please. Is there some kind of `thaikha` one has here at Chowk as to who can react and who can`t? There, I`ve reacted, and I`ve bristled. And no discussion!
Have a nice day.

#10 hamdim2 and #13 teshah #17 rafa_alam-

Your glee at attacking any / all tenants of a religion practiced by more than a billion people wordwide only shows the extent of your western slavery. It is fashionable these days to put the entire religion of Islam under the kind of scrutiny that no other religion has ever been put on an international level. Yet, Islam has continued to withstand these malicious attacks, whose purpose is not progress, but malicisouness on the behest of western owners.

Your slavish minds aside, this notion that one additional piece of cloth on head represses a woman is as bogus as that a mini skirt liberates a woman. Tell a barbie-wanna-be teenage girl in the west suffering from bulemia and anorexia how liberated she is. Tell this to teenage girls who enslaved by the desirable looks criteria make rounds of plastic surgeons to nip and tuck their nose, lips, ears, breasts. Tell those girls who are coping with depression by popping prozaic how lucky they are.

If you two slaves were to have had the permission from West to attack Judaism and Christianity, you would know that the level of bigotry and gender bias far exceeds that of Islam. Consider this:

- For those who spew their dislike of women`s rights in Islam, the Jewish book Kabbalah does not even accord HUMAN rights (to non-jews of course). If a jewish man kills a non-jew, the punishment is monetary fine. If a non-jewish man kills a jew, death is his punishment. While the rest of the human community thinks of animals and plants as a creation of God to serve humanity, the Kabbalah teaches that the non-jews are a creation of God to serve the Chosen People (jews).

- Mary Magdalene, the only woman who Jesus loved and was possibly married to and considered closest to him, is branded as prostitute. Why? Because, her presence and the possible marriage to Jesus, threatened the aura of divinity that the early christians wanted to create around Jesus. Contrast this with the respect accorded to wives of Prophet Muhammad. His wives are called ``mothers of muslims``.

Dear chowkies, as an elightened and intelligent people, we must know this by now that every single religion of this world can be torn apart by bringing it under scrutiny. But that is not to say that there are no problems within `muslim` societies. Indeed a major reformation of Islamic societies needs to take place. But who should undertake this? The west? or the muslims themselves? When the Western christianity underwent a major transformation in the medievel times (inquisition and all) did the christians undertake that task, or was it Muslims or Budhists?

There is indeed a need for intense debate among muslims to reform our societies. The last thing however we need is to cloud this debate with hate mongers and those on the leash from west.

Oye inquilaba:23
You are supposed to re-act this way. You are ful-filling the purpose. Commie-atheists type ARE the ones who will be hounded if they talk anti-Islam and anti-muslim talk. Once that stops only then the scum will be ``tolerated``.

Never ever should the anglo-enamoured Pakis elevate themselves to the blacks in U.S. Some gall! The ones who were chained could never be enslaved but the Paki scum is yearning ang hankering for the masters to return. Dammit they are willing to pay to become the totaa mynahs through the burger education system ( jee-mujhhay-Islamiyaat aur-urdu-mushkil-lagtee-hai types).

If you are that type you should really bristle. That IS the idea.

and no discussion! This is for your info. only. You can bristle again, though. if you are commie-atheist-liberal type caliming to be a MUSLIM. It does not apply to non-muslims, so no need to bristle.

Echoboom, you do an absolutely pitiful job of trying to save the world. When someone, was it Annie Lennox, sang `Don`t mess with a missionary man` I think she was probably singing about you.
By the way, how did you get to speak such perfect English?
Why is it that you are on this monotonous repetitive bent of telling western-educated pakis or whoever what scum they are? Our African brethren who were slaves talk about using our westernised educations to subvert the west. I guess that kind of talk interests you not in the least. Once a slave, always a slave? When was the last time you looked in the mirror ghulaam sahib?
Next time you want to go on your diatribe of slavishness to the West, please make sure you are standing in front of a mirror. And not with your ass facing it as it is right now. Maybe then some of us will listen to you.

Regards

harimau :
We all know the editorial policy of NYT - hence I never see any of its Op-eds as anything more than propaganda.

hamidm2 :
Women rights are barbaric ideologies? Interesting!

hossp:
I agree that most religions degrade women, but definitely not Islam. Unfortunately I cannot take your word for it otherwise! Have you done something in comparitive religion or Islamic studies?

Primary importance...ask any mother of two small kids what her priorities are!

Work during Holy Prophet`s time: Hazrat Khadija was involved in trade; Hazrat Ayesha preached the

Quran to Sahaba, Hazrat Safiya took part in Jihad...if you haven`t read Islamic History, please don`t make assumptions otherwise.

I never said a woman cannot share financial responsibility (which is a burden most women would rather avoid anyway)! If she wants to, she can. If she doesn`t want to, no one can force her. Men donthave a choice here. Whether they want to earn or not, they have to support the family. And they have to spend on their families. No such obligations on women: they earn and keep whatever they earn. That`s their own, and they dont have to spend it on anyone if they dont want it.

Holy Prophet doing the housework: there are numerous examples from history. Again, if you haven`t studied in depth, don`t assume a thing you don`t know about doesn`t exist.

Wife beating is NOT allowed in Islam! I never condone it. But one Quranic ayat clearly says that there is only ONE instance when it is allowed. Are you refuting the Quran?

What society are YOU talking about? I have first hand experience of slum areas as well as the maidservants who routinely come with marks on their faces etc. Just b/c it doesn`t happen in your area, doesn`t mean it doesn`t exist at all.


Rights of inheritance may not be equal, but at least they are there. And think about it: out of
the inheritance a man gets, he has to spend it on his family. A woman`s share is entirely her
own. And besides, in this country, equal or unequal, women do not even get what`s rightfully
theirs.

If a widow does not want to work, she doesn`t have to. But in our society she has no choice. No one supports her so she has to work. But it is her right of course, and if she is working, no one has any right to tell her otherwise.

I clearly refuted the servant/slave thing in the last paragraph when I talked about democracy. Read it again!

There are numerous ahadis supporting the Sahih Bukhari Hadis 9.100

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: An orphan virgin girl should be consulted about herself; if she says nothing that indicates her permission, but if she refuses, the authority of the guardian cannot be exercised against her will. Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2088

A virgin came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed her to exercise her choice.Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2091 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas

Of course if you don`t believe in ahadis at all in the first place, that`s a different matter totally.


teshah:

Prophet Adam and Eve BOTH took the forbidden fruit and it wasn`t the fault of Eve. Anything
otherwise is a purely Christian theory of the Original Sin.

And please read the tafseer of an ayat before drawing generalizing conclusions about ``Islam and rights of women`` from just one ayat.

Minhaj :

And women are ``expected`` to ``tolerate`` all this feeling all this while, that yes it is their

fault and they should have done better.

The TV Trolley thing was a very sarcastic comment. I don`t know what you took it as.

inquilaabi :
Rememmber silence amounts to consent LOL

vertex:
Well, my basic intention was to speak up against the curbing of rights of women in our society (with some sarcastic references); looks like it started a totally different debate altogether.

``Right to Marry of their Own Choice:``

How about making it compulsory for women to go out, find, woo, and bring in their future husbands. My guess is this will make most of the sub-continentals run for cover. All they want is to get abbu or someone bring in nice boys with good (family) incomes as husbands, and they then can choose without pressure. This is unfair. Like western women, they must get out there and hustle to rope-in their mates and be willing to deal with the trials and tribulations along with the joys of having to put-out in vain. Now we are talking real choice, which, naturally, comes with responsibilties. Only then can true emancipation can take place, else its just entitlement.

Ms. Ahsan

Nice article. I suggest a book by Dr. Parveen Shaukat`s Human Rights in Islam that covers pretty much all aspects of human rights including that of women`s rights in detail. Dr. Shaukat is an Indian and the book is avilable through an Delhi publishing house.

Hafsa Ahsan:

Very good. The very fact that this article is here is itself good. The westernised Paki mind really needs such articles repetetively and relentlessly. CHOWK is the place. The proud and impudent anti-muslims under the guise of muslim names crawl here.

Chowk has changed tremendously and the secularist/atheist kind of scum is not so blatant anymore but such kind still need internet-lashings so that they never ever rear their ugly heads anywhere anytime. For proud and practicing muslims the world-over these are the terrorists and fundamentalists among kuffaars. They need top get-over this illusion about themselves that simply because they had westernish `learning`, they know more than a lowly village-mullah. Remove the connection between job, title or position and then see what has been tgis `education` worth.

---

And now here comes the MADRESSA educated one:

Harun Yahya is a Turk. Lives in Turkey . You just cannot but be impressed by what he has accomplished at this young age. Fast becoming an authoritative voice among the scientific and philosophical communities of the world.

Another Iqbal in the making to rejuvenate the muslim mind?

Do not miss to go to www.harunyahya.com

Especially valuable for muslims suffering from the maladies of liberalisis and secularisis.

Even deviant muslims who ape the west are welcome( the illiterate and ignorant ones who proudly announce that they cannot read and write urdu but of-course do drink-fcuk-fun--as proof of their `education`--the jahil-uniformed scum).

---

The Eminence Islam Attaches To Women

HARUN YAHYA

The position of women in Islam has recently been an issue of debate. Some misconceptions arise, either from traditional practices which are thought to be ``Islamic,`` but are not, or else from prejudices. However, the real issue is how women are regarded in the Islamic faith, and when we look at this, we see that Islam gives women great social value, freedom and comfort.

Women in the Qur`an

God`s commandments about the status of women and the relations between men and women, which have been revealed to us through the Qur`an, consist of full justice. In this regard, Islam suggests equality of rights, responsibilities and duties between the two genders. Islam is based on sympathy, tolerance and respect for human beings, and does not discriminate against women in this matter.

The examples of good morals communicated to us in the Qur`an are universally compatible with human nature, and are valid for all stages of history.

Respect for women and women`s rights fall within this. In the Qur`an God insists that the tasks and responsibilities of women are the same as those of men. Furthermore, while performing these tasks and responsibilities men and women must help and support each other:

The men and women of the believers are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong, and establish prayer and pay alms, and obey Allah and His Messenger. They are the people on whom Allah will have mercy. Allah is Almighty, All Wise. (Qur`an, 9:71)

God emphasizes that believers will be rewarded in the same manner according to their deeds, regardless of their gender.

Their Lord responds to them: `I will not let the deeds of any doer among you go to waste, male or female - you are both the same in that respect... (Qur`an, 3:195)

Anyone who acts rightly, male or female, being a believer, We will give them a good life and We will recompense them according to the best of what they did. (Qur`an, 16:97)

In another verse, Muslim men and women are considered together, and it is stressed that both have the same responsibility and status in God`s sight:

Men and women who are Muslims, men and women who are believers, men and women who are obedient, men and women who are truthful, men and women who are steadfast, men and women who are humble, men and women who give alms, men and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember Allah much: Allah has prepared forgiveness for them and an immense reward. (Qur`an, 33:35)

In the Qur`an there are many more verses stating that men and women are exactly equal in terms of their tasks and responsibilities and their rewards or punishments in return. There are a few differences in social issues, but these are for the comfort and protection of women. The commands of the Qur`an regard the congenital differences between the two genders resulting from their creation, and suggest a system maintaining equal justice for men and women in this light.

Islam does not see women as objects. Therefore, it is not seen appropriate that a woman of good morals should marry a man of bad morals. In the same way, it is not permitted for a woman of bad morals to marry a man of good morals:

Corrupt women are for corrupt men and corrupt men are for corrupt women, Good women are for good men and good men are for good women. The latter are innocent of what they say. They will have forgiveness and generous provision. (Qur`an, 24:26)

Also as regards marriage, the duties and responsibilities of couples towards each other require equality. God demands that both spouses be protective of and supervise each other. This duty is expressed in the Qur`an in the following words.

They are covers for you and you for them... (Qur`an, 2:187)

Many rules and commandments exist in the Qur`an regarding the protection of women`s rights on marriage. Marriage is based on the free will of both parties; the husband has to provide economic support for his wife (4:4); the husband has to look after his ex-wife after divorce (65:6).



The Islamic Emancipation of Women

As the verses make clear, Islam brings justice to male-female relations and puts an end to harmful practices resulting from customs and traditions of pre-Islamic societies. One example is the situation of women in pre-Islamic Arab society. The pagan Arabs regarded women as inferior, and having a daughter was something to be ashamed of. Fathers of daughters sometimes preferred to bury them alive rather than announce their birth. By means of the Qur`an, Allah prohibited this evil tradition and warned that on the Judgment Day such people will definitely have to account for their actions.

In fact, Islam brought with it a great emancipation for women, who were severely persecuted in the pagan era. Prof. Bernard Lewis, known as one of the greatest Western experts on the history of Islam and the Middle East, makes the following comment:

In general, the advent of Islam brought an enormous improvement in the position of women in ancient Arabia, endowing them with property and some other rights, and giving them a measure of protection against ill treatment by their husbands or owners. The killing of female infants, sanctioned by custom in Pagan Arabia, was outlawed by Islam. But the position of women remained poor, and worsened when, in this as in so many other respects, the original message of Islam lost its impetus and was modified under the influence of pre-existing attitudes and customs. 1

Karen Armstrong, another Western expert on Islam, makes the following comment:

We must remember what life had been like for women in the pre-Islamic period when female infanticide was the norm and when women had no rights at all. Like slaves, women were treated as an inferior species, who had no legal existence. In such a primitive world, what Muhammad achieved for women was extraordinary. The very idea that a woman could be witness or could inherit anything at all in her own right was astonishing. 2

In fact, during the many centuries that followed Prophet Muhammad, women of the Islamic societies had a much higher social position than the women of Christendom. Karen Armstrong emphasizes that, during the Middle Ages;

... the Muslims were horrified to see the way Western Christians treated their women in the Crusader states, and Christian scholars denounced Islam for giving too much power to menials like slaves and women. 3

Anna King, a modern Muslim woman and a convert - or, better to say, a revert - to Islam, explains the Islamic emancipation of women as follows:

Islam first gave women their rights in a time when women were nothing but the property of men. Islam gave women the right to buy and sell on their own, own businesses and express her views politically. These were all basic rights which the American woman was not granted until relatively recently! It also encouraged women to study and learn Islamic knowledge, breaking a ban which several religions had stipulated, which forbid women to acquire any religious knowledge or touch religious texts... It also abolished the practice of marrying a woman without her consent. Thus, one would have to be very stubborn indeed to refuse such obvious facts and proofs that Islam was women`s first liberator.

The tendencies to see women as ``an inferior species`` who has no right for education and that must be totally secluded from the society arose much later in the Islamic world, as a result of deviations from the right Qur`anic path.



Conclusion

Thus we can say that the mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens is a wicked pagan attitude which has no place in Islam.

In fact, devout women are depicted as good examples for mankind in the Qur`an. One is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. Another is the wife of the Egyptian Pharaoh who, despite her husband`s wickedness, is also described as an ideal Muslim. (see, 66:11-12) The Qur`an also describes very gentle conversations between the Prophet Solomon and the Queen of Sheba (27:42-44), and between Moses and two young ladies (28:23-26), which symbolize the civilized social relationship between the two genders.

Therefore, it is impossible for a Muslim to have a bigoted approach to women. In a society where true Islamic morals are practiced, immense respect and sympathy will be shown to women, and it will be ensured that they can live in freedom and comfort.

The fundamental rule in Qur`anic exegesis is ensuring that the derived meaning is in conformity with the integrity of the Qur`an. When this is considered, it is seen that all the rules mentioned to us by Allah regarding women form a social structure allowing them to live in the most comfortable and happiest way. In a society where all the moral values mentioned by Islam are practiced comprehensively, the social position of women becomes even more exalted than in societies that we today regard as modern.

---

(1) Bernard Lewis, The Middle East, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London, 1995, p. 210
(2) Karen Armstrong, Muhammad A Biography of The Prophet, Harper Collins Publisher, USA, 1992, p.191
(3) Karen Armstrong, Muhammad A Biography of The Prophet, Harper Collins Publisher, USA, 1992, p.199

Hi Hafsa,I just joined chowk and yours was the first post I read.Must say,you cleared a lot of my doubts about Islam vis a vis womens rights.In India too,most women simply aren`t aware of their rights.Religion is used as a convinient weapon by patriarchal fundamentalists to suppress women,be they Muslims,Christians,Hindus or Buddhists.Secular laws seem to offer the only respite.
I just wanted to ask a question,why does Islam ask women to cover their heads(hijab)?After all,one`s modesty is to be judged by a head covering.I think it can be linked to the unforgiving sun that shines over Arabia,where a head covering would serve as aprotection against the heat.But it isn`t suited to tropical areas.

Hafsa,
Love the article and what must be your excellent sense of humour. In the hilarious paragraph on the right to work, you say that ``Islam in no way restricts the women in any way.`` And you start the paragraph by saying ``Yes, the primary importance of a woman is in taking good care of the house and its inhabitants.`` Good execution on that punchline. I always thought a woman`s purpose was to make babaies and clean dishes. Obviously, you have put alot of work into discovering other areas where women can be helpful to men. Keep up the good work, and keep the jokes rolling in.

Rafay Alam

Hafsa,

Question: I like this article...but who`s your audience? The commies and westernites here are not impressed...should the rest of us really care? They`re the trees in the forest that fell and made a huge noise...but we`re not in the forest to hear it. Why are you taking us there? The intended audience is among us, in the streets...far away from the petrified forest of sardonic pines and twit oaks, and certainly not among the chowk bushes (some of which are of the g.w. kind, actually).

#14, #12, #10

And i was trying to be nice for once. (laughing)

Friedman is too often deluded by the way. That qualifies him to write an op-ed for one of the top papers in the US, if not the world. Try not to take everything he writes as the almighty word. Just my opinion.

My girlfriend who is cleaning the TV trolley as I type this agrees with me.

Hossp,
I don`t know if all women on Chowk have consented in silence to the content of this article. I think many women on Chowk are ignoring this as yet another justification/excuse/call it what you want to for what a woman`s place is in the land of the puree`d. Some of them just don`t care, and some of them are too engrossed in school and finals to give this the attention it deserves. You call it consent. I call it `Frankly my dear I don`t give a damn`. And who knows, it might be the same thing afterall.
Tomorrow is yet another day.

At the ned of a long day, most women hear such things from their fathers or brothers or husbands as: You don`t really do anyting, You enjoy yourself at home while I am out doing the real work, What is all this dust on on the TV Trolley? Can`t you do such a little thing? And women are expected to tolerate all this feeling all this while, that yes it is their fault and they should have done better.

I think the TV Trolley needs to be cleaned every day. Wether a lady slave does it or a virgin whose permission needs to be obtained whoever is in the house, a cordinated effort is needed to make sure that the TV Trolley does not have dust. This is a must. Together the virgin and the female slave must lift the TV while a third female who has an online job must take a quick break and wipe the Trolley surface with a wet cloth. If women cant do this after I come back from a long day of work I will lose it.

.......... folks like ms. hafsa are much more dangerous than the bearded mullahs and wild-eyed jihadis because they are continually try to put a human face on a barbaric ideology instead of recognizing it for what it is and moving on to something better .................

..............to add to what tom friedman had to say, here is bbc today :

``Worlds apart

Wagah is the only road border crossing between the two countries .The differences between India and Pakistan are plain to see.

On one side men and women are segregated. On the other, families sit together. In India the watching crowd is a riot of colour. Across the border, white robes dominate. The strains of the azan, the call to prayer, compete with Bhangra beats. ``

..........hopefully, bhangra will win in the end .............

Obviously Mr. Freedman hasn`t heard of TRG and Zia Chishti... quoted as one of the 30 most eligible bachelors by the Peoples` Magazine some time ago, Mr. Chishti is founder of one of the most successful call centers in the world, right here in Lahore, Pakistan.

Islam and for that matter no religion provides for women’s right. It is unfortunate that we see this article on International Women’s week celebrated all over the world. It is also amazing that all women on chowk have “consented in silence” on the content of this demeaning article about women’s rights.

Here are a few observations:
The writer states:
1. “Right to Work: Yes, the primary importance of a woman is in taking good care of the house and its inhabitants.”

Primary Importance???

2. “We have numerous examples from history, where women at the time of the Holy Prophet used to run their businesses, keep their own shops and preach the Holy Quran.”

This is a lie! There is no such example in Islamic history at least during the time of the Prophet. Not even man preached the Quran during the prophet’s time. Actually the author is preaching women to work from home.

3. “Financial responsibilities are solely the domain of men.”

4. “We have a role model in our Prophet, who used to do his own work in the house (how many men regard this as a challenge to their manhood?)

Yet another lie! There is no evidence that the prophet routinely used to do house work for what it was worth.

5. “If hitting has to be resorted to, and that is also allowed in one circumstance only, it must not be on the face and not so that any marks appear on any part of the body.”

The author is clearly condoning women beating and quoting the Quran to support her argument.

6. “In our society, somebody who doesn’t lash out on the women, whether it be wives or sisters is actually looked down upon by others,”

Which society is the writer talking about? Lashing may be norm in her family but most of the educated middle class families in the subcontinent abhor this very idea.

7. “Right to Inheritance: …It goes on to define the different shares women have in the inheritance”

Right of inheritance is not equal in Islam and the writer does not admit that.

8. “In our society, we have widows working nine to five to support themselves and their children, which is quite contradictory to the above ayat.”

The writer is quoting Quran to say that “the “mahrims” of the widow have full responsibility to provide for her.” And the widow is not supposed to work to support her family.

9. “the husband can only expect obedience from his wife as long as his wishes are in accordance with the commands of Allah”

So if men’s’ wishes are in accordance with Islam, women is supposed to be obedient??????? Obedient as in a servant or a slave????


There is a history of women rights struggle in different parts of the world. There is still a lot to be done in that area but saying that Islam provides for women rights is a blatant lie.
Islam does no such thing. Religions in history have been used to deny women their rights and Islam is no different.

The writer quotes Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadis 9.100 as Narrated by Abu Huraira. This is a lie too. It is not a confirmed Hadith.

History does not provide for existence of any “Abu Huraira” during the prophet’s time. The Sahabis in the prophet’s close circle are well known to historian and all Muslims. There is never a mention of any body named “Abu Huraira” except in some hadith. I question the validity of this Hadith as I think it was made up by al-Bukhari almost 200 years after the Prophet’s death.

Finally, I seriously doubt that the writer is a woman as the name implies. There is somebody else in this “Purdeh-e- Zernigari”. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference.

Islam says the woman is `half-wit`. Any discourse she makes proves this. God created Adam, the Human, to be His `Khaleefa` (Deputy) on earth. Eve, the woman, was created only to fullfil his desire for having a company. But this sub-human thing proved to be anti-human and resulted in disgraceful expulsion of Adam, the human, from the heaven. While turning them out of heaven God had said ``Get out from here and you will be enemies of each other``. But we go on repeating this mistake as we are afraid of loneliness like our Father, Adam. So we have women as wives, loundies, daashtas, etc., etc. These are the basic relations of the humans with the woman; all other relations like mother, sister, daughter, etc., being merely accidental decorative by-products. The Quran describes comprehensively the status of the woman , viz-a-viz, man, in its Sura Nissa, verse 34, which the writer, for good reasons, ignores altogether. I reproduce it here :-
``SURAH IV, verse 34. Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. ( Translation by Pickthall )

My apologies for borrowing your board


DIL FUNDRAISER IN SAN FRANCISCO SET FOR MARCH 27


What could possibly be THE gathering of the year for the Pakistani community in Northern California is scheduled for March 27, 2004 when Developments In Literacy (affectionately known as The DIL Organization) brings its caravan of hope to the Argent Hotel in San Francisco at 50 Third Street with a reception slated for 6:30 pm followed by dinner and entertainment beginning at 7:30.
Headed locally by Sara Abbasi and her team of dedicated ladies who do our country of origin proud, it is organizations like DIL which have spearheaded the cause of fighting illiteracy in Pakistan with resources gathered from the overseas Pakistani community and their friends. And it is for this reason that this coming event should once again bring together the “Who’s who” from within Pakistanis and Pakistani-Americans. Illiteracy and ignorance is a sure path to a life of poverty in Pakistan or for that matter anywhere. The Abbasis (Sohaib and Sara) have already done more than their share towards spreading the spread of knowledge about Islam here in the US by recently funding/initiating an Islamic Studies Chair at Stanford University. Now Sara and her group of friends are back to helping people in Pakistan.
In 2001 Sara Abbasi had this to say about her first effort; “Just as importantly, DIL is working to break the ingrained social taboos that discourage female literacy. This indeed is the noblest of causes. In the words of Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him),
“the mother’s lap is the first school”. Only through such efforts will the next generation of Pakistanis improve, not just their own lives but the entire community around them”, said Mrs. Abbasi.
During the 2002 program it was mentioned that DIL is currently operating in Orangi (outside Karachi), Khairpur (Sindh), Dir (NWFP) and Mianwali (Punjab). There is also the hope that a new project in Baluchistan will be in full operation soon. Currently 200 schools are being operated by DIL with over 8000 children enrolled. What DIL is trying to do is change despair to hope and to bring a confident smile to the faces of young children and wipe away their tears that the embarrassment of illiteracy brings to their lives.
Tickets to the event are not cheap ($100 to $150) but the cause is more than worthy. So if you would like to attend or assist in any way please call (650) 323-6080 or (510) 651-3088. Please do not miss this opportunity to help some very poor in Pakistan get access to education. Corporate Sponsorship is available for $2000 & Patron Tables for $1500 (call for additional details). Please send your checks to 38 Monte Vista Avenue Atherton CA 94027.

You can also contact DIL San Francisco via email at dil_sf@yahoo.com

Hafsa,
If you are trying to convince someone that there is no compulsion in Islam then this article is not all that convincing, unfortunately. I have to agree with baaghiraja when he says that although your effort may have been noble, it just leads to more confusion.

Read this NY Times Op=Ed piece carefully, in particular those words about women`s education and empowerment. Don`t ignore it as just another article on India`s IT boom.

Then ask yourself: Are the comparisons drawn in the article fair?

Origin of Species
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: March 14, 2004

Nandan Nilekani, C.E.O. of the Indian software giant Infosys, gave me a tour the other day of his company`s wood-paneled global conference room in Bangalore. It looks a lot like a beautiful tiered classroom, with a massive wall-size screen at one end and cameras in the ceiling so that Infosys can hold a simultaneous global teleconference with its U.S. innovators, its Indian software designers and its Asian manufacturers. ``We can have our whole global supply chain on the screen at the same time,`` holding a virtual meeting, explained Mr. Nilekani. The room`s eight clocks tell the story: U.S. West, U.S. East, G.M.T., India, Singapore, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia.

As I looked at this, a thought popped into my head: Who else has such a global supply chain today? Of course: Al Qaeda. Indeed, these are the two basic responses to globalization: Infosys and Al Qaeda.

Infosys said all the walls have been blown away in the world, so now we, an Indian software company, can use the Internet, fiber optic telecommunications and e-mail to get superempowered and compete anywhere that our smarts and energy can take us. And we can be part of a global supply chain that produces profit for Indians, Americans and Asians.

Al Qaeda said all the walls have been blown away in the world, thereby threatening our Islamic culture and religious norms and humiliating some of our people, who feel left behind. But we can use the Internet, fiber optic telecommunications and e-mail to develop a global supply chain of angry people that will superempower us and allow us to hit back at the Western civilization that`s now right in our face.

``From the primordial swamps of globalization have emerged two genetic variants,`` said Mr. Nilekani. ``Our focus therefore has to be how we can encourage more of the good mutations and keep out the bad.``

Indeed, it is worth asking what are the spawning grounds for each. Infosys was spawned in India, a country with few natural resources and a terrible climate. But India has a free market, a flawed but functioning democracy and a culture that prizes education, science and rationality, where women are empowered. The Indian spawning ground rewards anyone with a good idea, which is why the richest man in India is a Muslim software innovator, Azim Premji, the thoughtful chairman of Wipro.

Al Qaeda was spawned in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Afghanistan, societies where there was no democracy and where fundamentalists have often suffocated women and intellectuals who crave science, free thinking and rationality. Indeed, all three countries produced strains of Al Qaeda, despite Pakistan`s having received billions in U.S. aid and Saudi Arabia`s having earned billions from oil. But without a context encouraging freedom of thought, women`s empowerment and innovation, neither society can tap and nurture its people`s creative potential — so their biggest emotional export today is anger.

India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan each spontaneously generated centers for their young people`s energies. In India they`re called ``call centers,`` where young men and women get their first jobs and technical skills servicing the global economy and calling the world. In Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia they`re called ``madrassas,`` where young men, and only young men, spend their days memorizing the Koran and calling only God. Ironically, U.S. consumers help to finance both. We finance the madrassas by driving big cars and sending the money to Saudi Arabia, which uses it to build the madrassas that are central to Al Qaeda`s global supply chain. And we finance the call centers by consuming modern technologies that need backup support, which is the role Infosys plays in the global supply chain.

Both Infosys and Al Qaeda challenge America: Infosys by competing for U.S. jobs through outsourcing, and Al Qaeda by threatening U.S. lives through terrorism. As Michael Mandelbaum, the Johns Hopkins foreign policy professor, put it: ``Our next election will be about these two challenges — with the Republicans focused on how we respond to Al Qaeda, and the losers from globalization, and the Democrats focused on how we respond to Infosys, and the winners from globalization.``

Every once in a while the technology and terrorist supply chains intersect — like last week. Reuters quoted a Spanish official as saying after the Madrid train bombings: ``The hardest thing [for the rescue workers] was hearing mobile phones ringing in the pockets of the bodies. They couldn`t get that out of their heads.``

with friends like hafsa, muslim women don`t need any enemies .........

..........according to her, and other apologists for islam, the following hadith is an example of women`s rights as guaranteed by al-lah and his apostle:

Narrated by Abu Huraira, Allah`s Apostle said, ``A lady slave should not be given in marriage until she is consulted, and a virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission is granted.`` The people said, ``How will she express her permission?`` The Prophet said, ``By keeping silent (when asked her consent).”


.............so we are being told that silence is consent and slavery is okay as long as a lady slave is ``asked`` before she is trundled off to somone`s bed............ and only virgins can be given in marriage?......... what about non-virgins?............ are they to be stoned? ..........subhanallah!.... mashallah!............. as long as we keep on drawing inspiration from the bufoonery of seventh century bedouins, our poor women will remain third class citizens ..............


``The truth is that our religion, Islam, gives her more rights and elevates her status to a much higher degree than any feminist movement can``.............. oh, really?.......... then how come that the first thing you notice when you land in an islamic country is the absence of women?.......... i guess they are all at home burning their bras and enjoying their rights !!!! ............ it took them fourteen hundred years to get to this point !

Ms. Hafsa,
Don`t mind me saying this, but your piece read like a liberal`s version of Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi`s ``Bahishty Zewar.`` But I`m sure your convictions regarding the issue were noble. But usually liberalism and being noble are not always a good mixture, especially when liberals set themselves the task to offer the ``true interpretations of the Koran & Sunnah.`` All they end up producing are little, middle-class Juniad Jamsheds suddenly deciding to ditch their guitars and heading off to Riwind. Or worse, little bourgoise Imran Khan`s ditching denims (albiet only in Pakistan), replacing it with a shalwaar-kameez and accompanying assholes like JJ, Hamid Gul and Ijaz-ul-Haq to Riwind for a summer break.
Only confusion results. And of course, some good old fashioned hypocrisy.

rgds,
Nadeem F. Paracha

inquilabi:
Islam is all for freedom and NO compulsion whatsoever in religion. If a Muslim woman does not want to wear Hijab, that`s between her and Allah (SWT). No third person has any right to tell her otherwise.

The crimes against women which go on is this country are definitely not sanctified by Islam. Those who say so otherwise do so out of ignorance. Islam has outlined very strict punishments for the crimes you mentioned. Unfortunately, our justice system does not work according to the Islamic principles most of the times.

For a very detailed and objective analysis of the Hudood Ordinance I suggest you get a copy of ``The Reality of Objections on Hudood Ordinance`` brought by Women Aid Trust. Hopefully it will make things more clear.


Mantolives: what conference and was it this article of mine? Can you let me know more about this? Jazakallah

Hafsa

I am with your cause.

But if Islam has not been able to get the Muslim women their due riights in the last 1400 years - there is something to think about.

Let us first get the Muslim women rights what the rest of the world has given - after that we can move on to the more Rights of Islam.

I was fortunate to get a copy of this at the `SAARC` writers conference held at AlHamra Lahore.

Hafsa,
If you are indeed trying to show that Islam gives a woman more rights and elevates her to a status to a much higher degree than any feminist movement can, then I have to wonder about a few things.

You speak of a woman`s right to wear a hijab, but what of a woman`s right not to wear one? Is a woman any less of a Muslim if her spirit and actions show her to be a woman of faith but she does not wear the hijab? Does or does not a woman have the right not to wear one?

You say: ``The fact that women have a lesser share of inheritance or that two women have to give a testimony for it to be accepted is never indicative that women and their duties are inferior and should be treated as such.``

Interesting. Women are definitely not inferior, but I question the fact that it is never indicative. Where are the rights of women when it comes to them being assaulted or raped? There are those who have spoken out in favor of the Hudood here. Is the Hudood not indicative that women and their duties are inferior? If a woman clearly cannot bear witness, or other women on behalf of her that she has been sexually assaulted than it raises serious questions as to the indicativeness of the inferiority of women.

As for the principles of feminism, there are those feminists who take their faith as a starting point in terms of treating all human beings ``equally`` and with ``respect``. For whom Islam and feminism, or Christianity and feminism intermingle. I have to wonder with what is ``allowed`` and ``not allowed``. With what some want to say is the Law, or with following the spirit of such words. I wonder if I am less of a person of faith because in spite of my belief and my practice of faith, I choose not to cover my head.

You do make a good point about democracy though. Charity begins at home as well.