Making Waves in the Sky

re Field Marshal #42:

``Hmm...interesting argument. Your statistics about the auto and financial industry for programmers are wrong. I have worked in quite a few industries in IT, and the difference in business domain knowledge never results in such huge salary difference. It is the difference in technology that results in the salary differences.``

Your definition of `working` in an industry obviously involves a broom and a vacuum cleaner. Think abut this. A programmer in the midwest which is the hub of the auto industry either lives in an apartment or a house that is not worth more than $250,000. The same programmer on the East coast lives in a house worth at least $500,000. Why? Ask your south Indian colleague for an analysis.

``I didn`t say they deserve an identical salary. I said the complete package should be such that a person is not tempted to join PIA.``

Why? Why should an airforce compete with an airline?

``I thought you were in the finance field. Perhaps you missed out on the lectures on supply and demand. Don`t you think these two are related? Don`t organizations function efficiently, only if people of equal skills, performing equal tasks, are getting paid equal amounts (as a total package)?``

No they don`t. If you had ever worked for a half decent organization you would understand that pay packages are only one factor in the ``efficient`` functioning of an organization. People join and stay in organizations for a multitude of reasons. Organizations run on the basis of plug and play don`t stay competitive for too long.

``But anyways. Could you explain what is holding a Java programmer in the auto industry from joining the financial industry as a Java programmer. Is he an idiot?``

No his mental competence is not what we are debating here. Once you`ve built your competency in a certain industry, it is very tough to change tracks. If you have an experience in one industry, it is very tough to sell yourself to another industry. If a programmer`s first job is in the insurance industry, odds are that he or she will stay in that industry for the long haul.

``I think a person serving his country should be wealthier than someone who is just serving himself.``

Spoken like a true fauji.

I have only quoted selectively because the rest of your post is even more ludicrous. But true to your pithu parade training you won`t shut up till you are beaten to the ground ala kargil.


later
-sac

Romair #45 You do not get a pension from the army for a good reason: you are still in active service (mentally, not physically). Just kidding.

I must also apologize to hamzan who is in tears at having to read this stuff on army paygrades yet again. (I plead innocent since this is the first time I think I am taking you up on this issue, and solemnly promise to hamzan not to prolong this discussion beyond what is absolutely necessary to determine the appropriate pay grades so our boys can get paid (I understand the pakistani military payroll has been delayed pending outcome of these chowk deliberations you and I are having).

More seriously, you are not saying anything much different than I am. That is, you are saying: `` I would say perhaps 80% of the Army and maybe 60% the PAF does not have such qualifications. But for the remaining, it is an obvious phenomenon, based on market dynamics. And these remaining are the best and brightest. ``

Thus, it is only 40% in the PAF that we are talking about and 20% in the army. Hell: just get rid of this 40% and 60% then, and all Pakistan will offer namaz-i-shuqrana. Get rid of the rest of them, and Pakistanis will be dancing in the streets.

The need of the hour for Pakistan is good cricket players (bowlers, batsmen), not airforce pilots and what not, if you get my drift.

OK, serious now. You forgot to address the point I made that these individuals whose pain you feel were not press ganged into service. They VOLUNTARILY AND OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL signed up for the army or air force, along with the commitment to serve. Please address this point, then we can talk some more (if hamzan doesnt mind us prolonging this discussion just a teeny weeny bit more, that is) and settle this issue once and for all. Your loyalty to your colleagues is commendable, but misplaced.

Romair - Pl ref to your cost interact.

A wet lease of an aircraft is with full maintenance costs and with crew. (minus the fuel/oils)

A dry lease is with full maintenancece costs; and minus the crew, fuel & oils.

There are also lease-purchase agreements.

The hull insurance cover is by the Lessee & third part risk is by the lessor.

Leasing out from one state to another also requires a `Transfer Agreement` between the state of registry and the state of operator (CAAs of both states) to come to an agreement on the regulatory aspects.

Russian Types (100-150 passenger) are easily available on wet lease at about $ 700 per hour. Even less.

The military costing is far more complicated due to secrecy & weapon systems choices. And commissions & cuts. The figures can be totally topsy-turvey.

Jang #43

{{Anyone who has not seen a thunderbirds display by USAF, and gets a chance to do so, dont miss it. Its the best.}}

And if you’re really, really lucky you get to see junior birdman punching out of his Thunderbird 0.8 seconds before impact. (This happened in Idaho about six months ago: more here.)

Romair, baaz na aana … yar for God’s sake maan jao … we are dead tired of your salary bakwas. Enough is enough bass bee karro. We all have read it at least 1000 times. Zabani yaad ho gya hai. Abb to bleeding ho rahi ye parh parh kar.

The same very lousy arguments, yaar you must be one of the most boring and monotone person PAF (if not Pakistan or Indo-Pak subcontinent) have ever produced.

Ref sac on #39

[Looking at the world in black and white can easily explain ROmair`s all too frequent bouts of insanity.

Making an argument that a pilot in the PAF deserves the same salary as a pilot in PIA is dumb. A pilot in the USAF with 20 years of service makes about $80,000 a year. A pilot in American Airlines with 20 years of service makes twice as much. A programmer in the auto industry makes about $60,000 a year. The exact same programmer in the financial industry doubles his salary.

A pilot joining PAF for money is in it for the wrong reasons. And a cab driver of the skies is not serving his country.]

Air Marshal Hotair is aloft in his own balloon kept up in the air by his own rhetoric. The US Air Force trained a lot of pilots during the Viet Nam war and when they got demobbed, the joined the cicilian airlines. It resulted in a glut of pilots and lower salaries. Companies such as United and American are moving a lot of flights to their regional airlines for at least one reason: the pilot in a regional airline gets $30,000 as starting salary, no matter how much experience he has.

Oh, by the way, the US airlines have colluded to keep their employees in line. When a senior pilot at American decides to apply to Continental because he thinks American is not viable, if at all he gets a job, he loses all seniority and starts at the bottom of the payscale. So, it is in the interests of the employee to stick with one airline all his life.... except when PANAM, Eastern, Braniff, etc., went out of business. The pilots of 747s had to look for any job they could get at any salary. Some might be lucky enough to get into foreign airlines but not everybody does.

tahmad32: #44: ``So far, aside from your assurances of profound knowledge of military affairs of the US and Pakistan, I have not seen any evidence of it. No doubt it is there, I just havent seen it in your posts. I await to be enlightened (or alternatively hope you will be willing to concede that you do not have a monopoly on knowledge regarding military payscales and retentions and so forth). ``

Obviously, I have no monopoly on this subject. But I have been in it. That has to count for something. Even if a person closes his eyes, for twelve years, inthe military, he is bound to learn things about it. You have only seen it from the outside. Surely, you must agree there is a difference between the knowledge of a person who has been in an environment, and someone who has only seen it from a distance.

I think you keep thinking that I have some ulterior motive in presenting my points about the military. What could that be? I don`t even get a pension. I am just presenting information I know to be true.

There is a large retention problem, amongst areas of the military where people have technical qualifications. It is a fact. It is just like the brain drain from Pakistan to the USA. If one company pays many times more than the other, for the same job, people will leave. By, ``pays`` I mean the whole package (salary, job security, environment etc.). This will not exist for people in the military who do not have qualifications that are in demand in the civil sector. I would say perhaps 80% of the Army and maybe 60% the PAF does not have such qualifications. But for the remaining, it is an obvious phenomenon, based on market dynamics. And these remaining are the best and brightest.

Moreover it can be seen in the recruitement by the military. It is no longer amongst the top choice for careers in Pakistan. That is because, there are other jobs that provide a much higher standard of living. It is simple economics.

Hence it makes sense for the miltiary to try hard to keep any qualified officer it has, and is counterproductive to not keep him. And that can only be done, if his standard of living is brought inline with the market dynamics. This is true for any job in any country in the world, where a free market exists.

This is why I have a hard time understanding your claim that, ``if there was a retention problem in the airforce. And there is none. Period.``

If there wasn`t one, the military would not have had to put in draconian policies to keep people from leaving. It would have been like PIA or United Bank, i.e. if you want to leave, go ahead. And I assume you agree, that the govt. spends much much on training PIA pilots than PAF pilots. But it pays them enough to ensure they don`t one day get up and join some other organization, if a job opens up.

Anyone who has not seen a thunderbirds display by USAF, and gets a chance to do so, dont miss it. Its the best. I dont know how it compares to the Pakistani, or the Suryakiran team from indian air-force. Even the antics of lumbering A-10s are amazing.. it flies with wings at 90 degrees to the ground, at very slow speed, barely 100 meters above ground! The thunderbird displays also bring cock-pit mics on the PA. Its also fun to see the Sabre-Jet of 1971 war that we in India were scared of act as a clown aircraft. The grand-finale is when four F-15s come from no-where and almost ``meet`` in the middle.

In India as well as the US, large number of people want to become fighter (or any military) pilots. Very small percentage are chosen. Their is no shortage. The resons are simple..young folks get to train on latest stuff-free, and later after completion of their commision (which can be as short of 5 years), they can fly commercial, or get a more lucrative job outside as per the market forces. If they like the military as a career, sometimes out of sheer inertia, or regimentation, or patriotism, they hang on.

Romair #41: Rest assured I am not interested in arguments - only the truth.

With all due respect to your knowledge of military affairs (Pakistan, US and no doubt some others - enough to make you consultant to Jane`s), just your saying something about the military does not mean it is correct. Thus, just your saying that there is a retention problem does not mean there is one.

Let me tell you where I am coming from when I say that the military does not have a retention problem: I happen to know serving officers (including officers with highly skilled jobs) who have no plans to leave the armed forces. Why do they stay? Because they dont mind the army life. Those are the people I was thinking of them when I wrote that: I dont make up stuff, rest assured, nor do I have any axe to grind on this or any other issue on chowk.

Also, I happen to know people who left the armed forces and joined other air forces. And you couldnt have paid them enough to stay. E.g. I know one air force pilot who left for a foreign country (and for some time was the commander of chief of one air force in fact, only trouble was that that particular air force had only a couple of planes, but that is another story). And I know the reason he left had nothing to do with pay scales whatsoever. And I know ex-army officers in the US whom you couldnt have paid enough to stay in the armed forces. Aside from these cases I know individually, I have never heard of retention being a problem in the military. I have heard of other problems, but not this one. And I do happen to come from what I would call a well connected military family. And often got the chance to listen in on discussion involving individuals of all ranks, from c-in-c down to generals, brigadiers, colonels, majors, captains, non-coms, and fresh recruits. So, I am not as ignorant as you think I am.

For the US, admittedely my main source of knowledge is my doctor who was in the Navy and (who made my day by assuring me after my checkup that I was fit enough to go out to sea in a submarine), and a few odd ball geezers floating around (like the German immigrant who was in the US air force in WWII and told me the sadness he felt when he had to bomb his own ancestral town in Germany in WWII). But nevertheless: Lets not get carried away by our own rhetoric: what we are discussin here is not rocket science but simple facts that anybody who reads the newspaper knows. So far, aside from your assurances of profound knowledge of military affairs of the US and Pakistan, I have not seen any evidence of it. No doubt it is there, I just havent seen it in your posts. I await to be enlightened (or alternatively hope you will be willing to concede that you do not have a monopoly on knowledge regarding military payscales and retentions and so forth).

Now let me ask you: On what basis do you say that the armed forces have a retention problem?

sac #39: I thought you were in the finance field. Perhaps you missed out on the lectures on supply and demand. Don`t you think these two are related? Don`t organizations function efficiently, only if people of equal skills, performing equal tasks, are getting paid equal amounts (as a total package)?

In fact, the biggest cause of problems in third world countries is that people don`t get paid market salaries for the tasks they are doing. This is a huge problem in Pakistan. Isn`t this why so many people leave Pakistan. Why in the world are you sitting in the USA? Obviously, you felt you could make more money for your skills in the USA, then in Pakistan? Don`t you think all other human beings function on the same basis? Or are you the only one? If tomorrow, some other company offered you twice the salary to do the same job, wouldn`t you move?

This is how successful societies work. Your being in the USA, and not in Pakistan proves my point. Supply and demand in market economies are the main deciding forces on how much people are going to make.

``A pilot in the USAF with 20 years of service makes about $80,000 a year. A pilot in American Airlines with 20 years of service makes twice as much. A programmer in the auto industry makes about $60,000 a year. The exact same programmer in the financial industry doubles his salary.``

Hmm...interesting argument. Your statistics about the auto and financial industry for programmers are wrong. I have worked in quite a few industries in IT, and the difference in business domain knowledge never results in such huge salary difference. It is the difference in technology that results in the salary differences.

But anyways. Could you explain what is holding a Java programmer in the auto industry from joining the financial industry as a Java programmer. Is he an idiot? Does he not think like you (and like most human beings) and move on to more lucrative pastures? Why in the world would a guy flying a KC10-A in the USAF not move to an airline to fly a DC-10? Obviously, the USAF will have to offer him a package which will keep him in the USAF (assuming tahmad`s contract-slavery theory is wrong)? And obviously USAF is providing him with such a package.

``Making an argument that a pilot in the PAF deserves the same salary as a pilot in PIA is dumb.``

I didn`t say they deserve an identical salary. I said the complete package should be such that a person is not tempted to join PIA. For your information, for a long time (uptil around early 70s), that was actually the case. PAF package, as a whole, was better than PIA`s. During those days, PIA used to beg PAF for pilots, and no one with a successful career in PAF left to join PIA. Generally only those left, who did not have a future in PAF. Now it is the other way around.

Those days were also the time when the PAF was running at its highest efficiency. For the simple reason that it was ahead of the market forces, and was able to recruit the best people and, most importantly, was able to keep them.

``A pilot joining PAF for money is in it for the wrong reasons.``

Everyone joins a profession for a certain level of living standard. This is human nature. And the point I was highlighting was that lack of equivlance of salaries. Not why someone is joining the PAF. That is there own choice, but market forces still apply.

````And a cab driver of the skies is not serving his country.``

So a person serving his country must be poor. Amazing!! I think a person serving his country should be wealthier than someone who is just serving himself. But the issue here was not serving countries, it was running efficient organizations, by keeping good employees, with marketable skills, for the long term.

If a guy has 2.5 million dollars of experience. It makes sense to keep him, from leaving the organization. Doesn`t matter if the organization is PAF, USAF, Microsoft, PIA, or the Mafia, or Chase Manhattan. Successful organizations cater for that. This is Management 101.

Perhaps when you move into a management position, you will undestand these issues better.

tahmad #40: In your previous reply, you stated, ``The only way your argument would make sense is if there was a retention problem in the airforce. And there is none. Period.``

This was obviously false, as I pointed out. Since this argument did not hold water, you have switched the argument to, ``After all, they know the terms of the contract when they sign up for service....In the US, the military pays to educate people in all kinds of skills (doctors, pilots, radar, systems, and so on and on) who are then obliged to put in service in the military even though they could make a lot more outside.``

I have a very good idea of how the US military pays its employees. Obviously, you don`t. There is no organization in the world, that can function efficiently, if it doesn`t take into account and cater for market forces. Unless you have some new economic theories. The only organization I know of, which works on the principle you are presenting is called, ``Slavery.`` To the best of my knowledge, the US military is not slavery. It works within the market economy, in which it exists. It has to.

The US military goes out of its way to adjust salaries based on market forces. It does so more than probably any military in the world. It has large bonuses that kick in, after certain years of service. And it keeps revising them, along with the annual salary of its employee. The last thing the US military wants is a large group of disgruntled soldiers, who are being forced to work, over their whole lifetime, against their will (based on your contract theory). No organization can survive like that.

The equipment used by the US military is so complex, that it has to attract from amongst the best and brightest in the USA. How in the world will it do so, if it does not offer them market salaries, and re-adjust them as the market changes? Is it going to blindfold them and make them sign a contract below market rates, and then put a gun to their head, and make them work.

In fact, there is a crisis at the moment brewing, since there is a fear that, a large group of people in the US military will resign, due to the Iraq war. Congress is debating hard on how to keep them in the military. And it is not debating putting them all in jail, through your slavery model. It is going to adjust their salaries and benefits.

Even if we assume your contract-based, slavery-theory to be true, how in the world does the US military attract new candidates, if it does not adjust its salaries, according to market forces? Could you explain? Even if it can keep an already-employed Captain in slave mode, threatening to jail him, if he wants a raise, how will it get new employees to join the military, if they know that they will under some sort of a lifetime contract, which will never be adjusted?

Would anyone ever join any organization, knowing fully well that the organzition has full control over all salary issues, and will not adjust them? Obviously not. Would you ever join such an organization?

But before we debate this furthur, could I ask you whether you actually know what you are talking about. Or whether you are just trying to put up an argument for the sake of argument. If it is the later, then we are wasting each other`s time.

Romair : In the US, the military pays to educate people in all kinds of skills (doctors, pilots, radar, systems, and so on and on) who are then obliged to put in service in the military even though they could make a lot more outside. Why should Pakistani pilots and other technically trained individuals have it otherwise?

After all, they know the terms of the contract when they sign up for service. Why do they want the contract changed to their benefit once society has paid to give them marketable skills?

I am touched by your concern for the feelings of these poor army officers, and I was weeping by the time I came to the part where you reminded me that ``Soldiers are human beings with families, and want the same standards of living that you want. `` I even played the violin to provide the appropriate mournful music and then cried in tune to that music while reading your post. But then I said to myself: ``How many Pakistanis can only dream of the life these army officers lead in Pakistan?`` I took a poll, and the number came to 134,456,351. That made me feel better, and I stopped feeling sorry for these poor army officers, and stopped playing the violin and stopped weeping. (I got mad instead at the way the military people in Pakistan think the country is their private jageer, and started playing one of Tchaikovsky`s battle tunes instead to reflect my mood).

#27

Yes, GIS means Geographical Information Systems.

re Field Marshal`s usual meanderings:

Looking at the world in black and white can easily explain ROmair`s all too frequent bouts of insanity.

Making an argument that a pilot in the PAF deserves the same salary as a pilot in PIA is dumb. A pilot in the USAF with 20 years of service makes about $80,000 a year. A pilot in American Airlines with 20 years of service makes twice as much. A programmer in the auto industry makes about $60,000 a year. The exact same programmer in the financial industry doubles his salary.

A pilot joining PAF for money is in it for the wrong reasons. And a cab driver of the skies is not serving his country.

later
-sac

NazarHayatKhan #33: ``But I know that small Aitlines like Shaheen or Aero Asia which wet lease aircraft, which includes all costs including pilots except the fuel, come for about $ 700 per hour. The Russian type 100-150 passenger aircraft.``

I do not know much about commercial airliners. You would, obviously, be more qualified, than I, to comment on that. I always thought their costs were much much higher, than military aircraft. From the friends I have, who are pilots in PIA and in a few international airlines, I have heard that the costs of flying are so high, that nearly all the training for commercial pilots is done on simulators. And even the costs on that can run into the thousands, per hour.

Does the wet lease, cover all costs? Does it include maintenance costs? And how much is the cost of the fuel? Isn`t that the major cost for airliners, along with maintenace of parts? I would assume just the combined salaries of the pilot/copilot and cabin crew and maintenance crew, would be in the hundreds of dollars/hour.

Nazar

I agree partially - but as the father of modern politics Machiavelli, advised, the Generals would also want to share the booty and keep the low rankers happy as well. It is only possible when they have their own government. Civilians are nuisance and demand a cut too. So as military takes over, the majors and colonals, who under civilian rule keep busy saluting anything that moves and whitewashing anything that is stationary, become ``administrators`` running anything from a whole district to any corporation in Pakistan. A new plot mafia and qabza group emerges and prices of land and property skyrocket. This beast has tasted the blood now; there is no way it will stay in the cage now. As the persian proverb goes - a wolf, as long as he has teeth, cannot become a gentleman. I see no hope for a deliverance from this evil except someone from outside like India or America attacks us and dismantels this mother of all evils. Those two we can fight, as it is evident in Iraq, but this cancer has spread in every organ of our bodies. There is no hope.

Urstruly # 34

In the beginning, it is just a job - even some excitement. Then it is drudgery - a victim of social insecurity and hanging with the job.

After one Star, suddenly the booty starts coming - in millions of rupees. By the third Star, a killing is made roughly equal to a middle sized businessman who has rubbed his ass all his life. Partriotism & motivation is in direct relation to the bank balance.

The only price to be paid is a bit of selling of the soul, working under the military Act and treating the dumb seniors as Gods.

After retirement, everyone becomes a Democrat and a great lover of the Constitution.

It seems from the interacts below that the military people have a life of as the Punjabi proverb goes - sau jutiaN sau piyaz. I don`t understand why then they break the constitution of the country whenever they feel like it. If they are as miserable under civilian rule as they are under miltary rule then what is the benefit in this exercise as the saying goes - gunaah-e-bay- laz`zat.

Romair # 30

You could be right. I have a complete disconnect with the past.

But I know that small Aitlines like Shaheen or Aero Asia which wet lease aircraft, which includes all costs including pilots except the fuel, come for about $ 700 per hour. The Russian type 100-150 passenger aircraft.

So I guestimated a rough general figure for smaller aircraft.

tahmad #31: ``The only way your argument would make sense is if there was a retention problem in the airforce. And there is none. Period.``

There is a huge retention problem in the PAF, and amongst the more technical branches of other other forces. Why do you think no one on Chowk is in the military, if it is such a lucrative profession? The military, specially PAF, is having great problems now, recruiting people with the qualified skills to look after its technical equipment (which is amongst the most complex anywhere in Pakistan; nothing in Silicon Valley was as complex as the aircraft systems I worked on in Pakistan). And even bigger problems in keeping them from leaving.

It is simple market forces. The only time when market forces don`t apply, is during a war. That is when soldiers forget about money and even their own life, and fight, as they are ordered to do. Other than that, military is a job, just like all other jobs, and it is affected by market dynamics, like all other professions. That is why the Congress keeps giving huge bonuses to all its soldiers, in the USA.

I am speaking from personal experience. How could there not be simple market dynamics? Soldiers are human beings with families, and want the same standards of living that you want. A Ph.D Major teaching in NUST, makes Rs. 15,000/month. He can drive down GT road, and go to LUMS and make at least 1.5 lakh per month, with much better benefits. And he will live in Defense, Lahore his whole life. Even though NUST is ranked higher than LUMS, as an institute.

A pilot flying a fighter, makes Rs 15,000/month. He can make five to ten times more, in total benefits, if he joins an airline, like PIA. Or by going to Dubai and becoming a simple flying instructor. Or by becoming a pilot for a Shiekh in Saudi Arabia. An Electrical engineer can leave and make three to four times as much working for a private company in Pakistan. Obviously, each and every one of them will not have these opportunities, but a huge group do have them. This is all, within Pakistan. If you talk about migrating to USA, the stakes are even higher.

The situation has reached such phenomenal proportions that the military, specially PAF, has introduced draconian laws to keep people in the military. Only a microscopic minority, can now, seemlessly transition into another govt. profession, like NazarHayatKhan was able to do.

If you even suggest you are going to leave, you get posted to Timbuktu. If you apply to leave, you get taken off your professional duties. You cannot leave for ten years, and even then, only if the top management agrees. Some branches, in most cases, does not even let people go for higher studies (like MBA at LUMS) on their own personal expenses. It even restricts people in going for higher studies on scholarships. Because, it knows they will leave.

And even if somehow or the other you leave, you cannot work for any govt. job unless the military gives you an No Objection Certificate.

I now make close to more money than my whole unit combined. Even in Pakistan, I can now make ten to fifteen times, what my batchmates with equal qualification in the military, are making. As can most expat IT people with some experience. I can make 2+ lakh/month in Pakistan, in direct salary. They are making Rs 15,000/month in the military. Including people who graduated with better grades than me, and the few who got Ph.Ds.

This is why I always find all the comments from expatriate ``experts`` on the miltiary, who have never spent a day in it, to be interesting. They keep talking about high living standards in the military, and why there aren`t more refuseniks, while they themselves sit comfortably making a small fortune, in the USA.

I have seen both sides - the military life and the civilian life. There is no contest. It is like comparing a rickshaw to a new sedan. You haven`t seen both sides. You should, perhaps, try to appreciate the comments of those, who have seen both sides.

Romair #30 So you say that the country isnt already being sucked dry by the armed forces, and think air force pilots should be paid more. The only way your argument would make sense is if there was a retention problem in the airforce. And there is none. Period.

The market speaks louder than any numbers you can toss into your calculator. (and even your math is wrong - you are looking at sunk costs when what is relevant is the opportunity costs available to the pilot).

NazarHayatKhan/Ferozek: The estimates of 300/hr are probably way off. Though I am not quite sure by how much. But I am quite sure they are way off. My guess is between $1000 - $2500 per hour for F-16s, counting all the maintenance costs. Accoriding to the USA govts`. report`:

In 1997, the baseline cost for depot repairable parts for one hour of F-15E flying was $2667. The baseline cost for one whole flying hour, as adjusted by USAF, for F15E was $3,195. (www.gao.gov).

F-15E is the most sophisticated fighter in the world, at the moment (other than the YF22, which is still being worked on) . It has two F-100/F404 engines. F-16s have one of this exact engine. At the same time, Pakistan gets its F-16 parts as imports, so they are probably costlier than the price paid by the USAF. However, labor costs in Pakistan are lower.

The average pilot on an F-16 is around 32 years old. The average pilot on a F-6/F-7 is in his mid to late 20s. My batchmates flying F-16s, right now, have around 2500+ fighter/trainer cumulative flying hours, with around 400+ or so on F-16s (a tiny few have over 1000 on F-16s). They fly around 12-18 hours a month.

So you can do the math of how much they are worth, at the moment. Lets assume the average cost of their flying is $1000. So 1000 x 2,500 = 2,500,000. 2500000 x Rs 57 = 142,500,000. One hundred and forty five million Ruppees, at least, just in flying experience. This is true for all Air Forces, including Indian Air Force (which flys more expensive Mirage-2000s).

A peson worth 2.5 million dollars, and that too in Pakistan, should get a pretty high salary, if you ask me. A receptionist in Citibank in Pakistan makes the same salary as an F-16 pilot. The biggest wastage, in my opinion, in the military, is its inability to hold onto people who are worth a lot, due to low salaries and living standards. The military should pay all these guys market salaries. It should not offer them plots at senior ranks. It should not give them positions in PIA when they retire. It should not give them positions in Civil Service when the retire. It should just pay them a salary that is proportional to their batchmates in PIA.

This would solve a lot of problems. It would get the military out of civlian businesses, like PIA, Fauji Food etc. It would get the military out of the real-estate business. It would maintain a healthy distance between the military and the civil sector. And it would be cost-effective for the military, since its qualified officers would not leave, for lucrative private enterprises.

re: Nazar H. Khan

Thanks for the estimates.

re: Romair

Agreed, that the government needs to pay market salaries to PAF pilots. A trained pilot is more valuable than the aircraft he flies; experience cannot be replicated at any price.

Ciao

re: Nazar H. Khan

Thanks for the estimates.

re: Romair

Agreed, that the government needs to pay market salaries to PAF pilots. A trained pilot is more valuable than the aircraft he flies; experience cannot be replicated at any price.

Ciao

Ahmed-Iftikhar

Your Info:

Does GIS mean geographical information systems? I think after BS in GIS, you should get a job with Government immediately.

The present Government does have an ambitious Plan to implement the GIS in the country.

ahmed-iftikhar # 23

I will some time. Thanks.

Ferozk # 21

A very rough estimate. Please don`t quote me.

$ 300 per hour. Roughly 2 Hours per sortie. So $600 per flight.

100 aircraft. So $ 60,000 for flypast.

Three rehearsals. So $ 180,000.

Exchange rate Rs 57. So total expense Rs 10,260000.

Seems to be the cost of a very well furnished primary school at Wana.

dost-mittar #18: ``I wonder why every country continues with such shows that puts the lives of pilots in needless jeopardy.``

My guess is that it is done for recruitement purposes. Kids are excited by it, and join the military. In wealthier countries like USA and Canada, there seems to be a shortage of people wanting to join the military - specially in the enlisted ranks. In the USA, I read that it is dropping drastically, after the Iraq war.

So the shows act as advertising vehicles.

The flying in these parades is probably less dangerous than than normal fighter flying. And less stressful on the airplanes. And I think the hours go into the logs of the pilots as normal hours, i.e. they would have used those hours to do some other sort of flying, anyways.

Other than that, I am not sure what the purpose of these shows is. I think the population of most countries actually wants some of this pomp and paegentry, specially the wealthier countries. So probably national pride is another factor. If that wasn`t the case than elected leaders, like Vajpayee and Clinton wouldn`t make it a point to attend veteran`s parades and national day miiltary parades.

Ferozek:

The cost of one hour of flying any military jet aircraft is extremely high. Definitely in the thousand(s) of dollars. The PAF gets about 1/3rd of the total military budget, even though it is 1/10 the size of the Army in total personal. At any one time, there are only around 300 to 400 fighter pilots, actively flying and protecting the whole airspace of Pakistan. Most of them are in their 20s or early 30s. By the time a young pilot is fully trained on an F-16, he is worth crore(s) of ruppees to the country. That is why I have always argued, that is ridiculous to pay a person, worth crores of ruppees, flying a $10 million dollar machine, 15,000 ruppees per month as a total salary. If he leaves the military, due to low salary, the govt. loses crores of ruppees. Not to mention an extremely highly technically qualified employee. His salary should be at least half of that of a PIA pilot.

The govt. needs to let market forces apply to the military also.

Nazar Sahib, I have read your story when you were flying over Karakoram Mountains and your brand new fighter aircraft ran out of fuel because of a massive leakage. That was a close miss. A pilot’s life involves so many risks. You should post that story on Chowk too.

Urstruly #20 This has to be the most confused, self-contradictory rant I have seen.
You need to go to the Advanced School of Ranting (now available online on chowk. Instructor: visiting Professor Tahmed). For your learning convenience, I have provided some free introductory lessons below:

Lesson 1: Be consistent. You start by saying you hate the military, and you end by complaining that there have been no march 23 parades for the past few years while we used to have them before. That will never do!! You will confuse the rantees (i.e. those who actually read your rants). First decide whether or not you like military parades/

Lesson 2: Base your rant on facts, not hot air. You lose all credibility when you talk about the military massacring its own women and children. Only a fool (or someone turned into a fool as a result of trying to fool the world) will believe that the military is in FATA to attack women and children. While an unfortunate accident did happen, it is because these chechen-types decided to hide in their midst. It is only these al qaeda types and mullah types who are your heroes who have a policy of targetting innocent people, as they did on 9/11 and as they have been doing in Pakistan. The fact that you dont care that hundreds of innocent shia worshippers have been killed in mosques by these devil`s dogs, the fact that innocent nuns in churches in Pakistan were attacked by these animals and that doesnt matter to you, the fact that innocent pakistanis who had the bad luck of passing by bombs planted on pakistani streets does not mean anything - all this does not mean that it never happened. So, stick to facts.

You must pass the first two lessons above before being eligible to register for further lessons. So, make an effort and start focussing on facts. No number of chowk posts written by you will change one single fact in real life, nor fool one single person other than yourself (and possibly Romair... just kidding Romair).

re: Nazar H. Khan

I will settle for a rough estimate.

Ciao

Murghi Chor aur Mirasi

NazarHayatKhan


I apologize for not addressing the content in your article. Sometimes it is hard to tell from my writings that I don`t particularly like faujis, therefore, let me explicitly say that I don`t like them, especially those of dictator variety. March 23 used to be purely a peoples occasion. It reminds us of the day when our collective conscience, as a people, declared in no uncertain terms that we are against all forms of oppression and injustice. That was an expression for our love for the freedom that we had long desired and died for fighting the tyranny of Hindu-British nexus of evil.

I resent the fact, and as it is a tradition in our country; this very important milestone of our national history was also hijacked by the faujis. The dictator of that time had to come up with something to match up with the Hindu`s Republic Day of January 26. What faujis had to offer? Nothing. They were busy oppressing the people who just freed themselves from the tyranny of 200 years. So faujis hijacked what was rightfully ours, our pride, and turned it into a pomp and show of their own. Since then 23 March has become a military show; with military very cleverly sidelining all democratic voices so that they could not claim this day as a rallying point for the cause of democracy and republic.

And then came the fauji creed of ``Pakistan First – pehle Pakistan`` to hide their own inherent cowardice and blatant lawlessness behind it. ``Pakistan First`` – that reminds me of that `murghi chaur` (chicken thief) who steals a plump chicken from somewhere and then suffers pangs of conscience. On one hand he has a plump chicken, which is making him salivate and on the other hand he has his conscience that is tormenting him. So he decides to discuss his dilemma with his wife about the chicken he had `found`. His wife advises him that he should climb up the roof and yell ``whose chicken is this?`` for three times and if no one comes to claim it after that then he should make a soup out of it with clear conscience.

So the chicken thief climbs up the roof and screams at the top of his lung ``Whose..`` and then in almost a whispering voice he says ``..chicken is this``. He does it three times and then…..

Similarly, these murghi chors i.e. faujis invented the creed of ``Pehle Paksitan`` at the nod of their foreign masters. Now at the top of their lungs they scream ``Pehle Pakistan`` and then in almost a whispering voice they say ``Khattam`` then they look for approval from their masters and yell again. So what faujis did is first they stole/hijacked/kidnapped our beloved 23 March from us, and then they killed it and made a soup out of it and consumed it without a burp. For the past three years now March 23 is not celebrated in Pakistan. The public occasion has been cancelled. Holiday is not mandatory anymore. And there has been no parade since then. At the time we were fighting against the Godless Empire of a superpower there were parades every year – never cancelled. But now masters have told their minions to steal the least bit of pride from the people. Can a Hindu imagine a Republic Day in India without holiday and a parade? We can.

And look at the faujis when they severed the delicate thread that joined them with people – what has happened to them? They have turned into that village mirasi who tells jokes to chaudry to please him. Cahudry has a peculiar habit of appreciating the jokes (or showing displeasure if he doesn`t like his jokes) that mirasi is telling. He hits mirasi on his head with his slipper (chittar). And mirasi just says ``bhaag lage rehn`` whenever he gets hit on his head. Look at these mirasis, I mean faujis, they are massacring their own women and children, old and sick by bombing them and their master Khalilzad hits them with his chittar on their heads. Sometimes when chaudry hits mirasi with a chitter the chitter slips out of his hand. The mirasi then holds the chittar in his both hands and presents the chittar back to chaudry with due respect saying ``tohaadi jutti sada sir – bhaag lage rehn``

tahmad

uh..okay.. as long as you are for the defense spending you are just fine. I hate the pomp and show too.

Awesome, thrilling read! It seems that the performance is every bit as dangerous as it seems from the ground. I wonder why every country continues with such shows that puts the lives of pilots in needless jeopardy. In Canada, a few snow birds have been lost in such shows and they haven`t yet stopped these shows.

hamidm #16 Urstruly and Romair merely misread what I wrote. You, my friend, took your precious time off on another board to actually edit what I wrote to make it appear absurd, and then proceeded to criticize that absurd version. Thereby proving that while you were mad at being proven full of sh!it, you could not find anything logically or factually wrong in what I wrote.

I told you to stop licking Jay`s boots, but you didnt listen!! Now look what has become of you!! tsk! tsk!

poor tahmed !......... everyone is always misreading, misquoting or misunderstanding him ............ reminds me of the precious book he is always trying to push ........

......... as for urstruly, i think he should stop paying his federal tax as a protest against military spending ......... better yet, he could run away to saudi arabia or afghanistan to live with his brethren in caves and spider holes - not that flint michigan is any better!

............ but as a child i did enjoy those military parades, specially those ten clowns on one motorcyle and the alsatian from the army kennels chasing some poor army jawan dressed as a thief ............ now all the clowns in uniform have become thieves and bought off the civilian dogs ............

urstruly #10 No need to get sarcastic, my friend. I know truth hurts, and I must administer that upon you once in a while.

And the truth this time is that you didnt read what I wrote, and will have to go back and read it again. When you have finally understood what I wrote, you will write that it is not defense expenditures I am ranting about, but about these military parades. And the truth is that in the US they dont celebrate Independence Day by showing off their missiles and tanks and planes as many other countries do.

So, once again, I have to apply the truth namely, that you dont know what you are talking about. But, in all fairness, you should understand that the fault is yours (because you didnt take the trouble of first understanding what I wrote) and not mine. So, dont get sarcastic with me.

Romair #8 You didnt get sarcastic like brother urstruly, but you didnt read what I wrote either. I ALREADY NOTED that the US has a superpower`s armed forces and Pakistan has a puny one, relatively speaking. My point is that they dont flaunt it on Independence Day the way we do in Pakistan, and Independence Day in the US focuses on ordinary people and schoolchildren, not on bemedalled Field Marshalls and other Bigshots.

So, please try to be fair.

Personally, I have seen for decades of this knee-jerk anti-US sentiments: and time has proved them to be hollow. In the 1960`s no ``intellectual`` in the world (and certainly in Pakistan) would be caught dead saying that the US had the right idea and the commies were exactly what the US said they were. Time proved the US right, and now the children of the commies are running to make up for lost time and do exactly what the US had been saying they should do if they wanted to build a better life for their people. Now the story is being repeated: there is this knee jerk anti-americanism that blinds people to simple, easily verifiable facts. As you and urstruly just demonstrated.

#12
which other types have you flown in the PAF?

Farzana # 3

The travel related Airline flying, is quite fascinating - if you are an extrovert type. You get all the variety in life that one can hope for.

Whereas the Air Force type flying is more youthful & is more satisfying to the boy`s urges & instincts.

I try to keep the text simple and not too technical. But in every flying related article, I do release some interesting information on one or two aspects. I think it is better this way. And easy to digest.

Ferozk # 6

I will not be able to give you accurate figures.

Tehmed32 # 7

I agree with you. We need to get out of this superfluous waste of money. This 23 March, there was no parade.

Boondongs # 9

The aircraft were Mig-19s (F-6s) - Nato Code name Farmer - Chinese built.

tahmad # 7

What about your mai baap; their defense budget is way more than the combined defense budget of the whole world - should they be ashamed of themselves too or is it just the rest of the world except the mai baap who should be ashamed.

nazar saheb, which migs were you flying J-6 or J-7`s?

tahmad #7: The USA, with a military budget, crossing over $400 billion (more than the next 30 countries combined) has a virtual Army of people, for just displaying its equipment. It spends far more on displays than any country in the world.

There are whole units that do nothing excpet displays, the whole year around. Each displays is supported by a massive amount of equipment for the local bases. The display units of the USA, by themselves, are probably the size of most Air Forces. Amongst these units are:

- Thunderbirds display team (a whole squadron of display F-16s of USAF)
- Blue Angles display team (a whole squadron of display F-18s of the Navy)
- Wings of Blue (USAF display parachute unit)
- Golden Knights (US Army display team)

to name a few.

You cannot compare a $400 billion military-industrial complex of the USA, with a $2.8 billion dollar mliitary-industrial complex of Pakistan, or even with a $15 billion dollar military-complex of India.

Interesting to read how things looked like from ``up there`` (having seen these flypasts on March 23 from ``down here`` at the Rawalpindi race course grounds). However, I liked the footnote best: ``Footnote: We need to think whether it is worthwhile for the impovershed countries to have such wasteful display of war toys.``

Yes indeed! I always find it fascinating that in the US (with the armed forces of a superpower compared to which our fleet of planes and tanks is nothing), Independence Day in Washington DC is marked by a parade that has.....lots and lots of school bands, folk dancing (US style, with cowboy and indian types) in the street, some ethnic flavor tossed in, a few soldiers dressed in revolutionary era uniforms. But there is not a warplane in sight, no ugly missiles being hauled down the streets. The main spectators are ordinary people, and the President and VIPs are nowhere to be seen. This speaks volumes about the kind of country the US is, and the kinds of values they maintain.

The rest of the world (not just Pakistan, but other third world countries and even France and China) could learn a lot and be ashamed of the stupid display of military power they put up. The clowns dressed in military uniforms (starting from Ayub Khan down) and the various VIPs who use the occassion to appear god-like, saluting at their passing minions are the center of attraction, and the ordinary people are merely in the background. Some independence day!!

Independence day parades in Pakistan (and other third world countries) are a mockery of independence. They should be renamed ``Slavery of the People to the Elite Scum and Rabid Militarists of the Third World Day``

re: Nazar Khan

A beautifully worded article. It was really interesting to ``see`` the parade from a pilot`s perpective.

As to your footnote-comment, I think such parades are a waste of money. For the sake of argument, can you tell me what is the cost of each sortie in the parade? You mentioned that the Mirages and F-16s flew a distence of 400 miles and your MiGs flew 200 miles. A round trip would 800 miles for the F-16s and the Mirages and 400 miles for your group. At 500 miles an hour, that is nearly two hours of flying time, am I right?

How much does it cost to keep an F-16 or a Mirage or a MiG flying for two hours in terms of say, fuel costs? Some one told me that it costs $ 4000 for one hour`s fly time by an F-16.

Ciao

Nazar, that good description. I have read all your articles on your website. When does the leaking MIG 21 come?
Keep it up, though you already are.
Cheerios

Nazar, that a good description. I have read all your articles on your website. When does the leaking MIG 21 come?
Keep it up, though you already are.
Cheerios

Nazar Khan:

Reminded me of the air parades we used to watch as kids, thinking of it all as just a load of fun, never imagining the training that went into it and not once thinking that such pyrotechnics could be used to lethal effect. Therefore, your sensitivity is appereciated. I would have liked it better had you added a few more of the thoughts that crossed your mind...

I have travelled twice in the cockpit of a commercial aircraft - did not know just smiling at the Capt can work wonders:) - and after the take-off there was such a feeling of `nothingness` that enveloped me. And the pilot and engineer were most nonchalant. Does becoming so good at one`s job take away the wonderment one feels?

Nice article.

As for the question: ``We need to think whether it is worthwhile for the impovershed countries to have such wasteful display of war toys.``

Personally speaking, yes, if it can be counted as part of the normal training. No, if it cannot. Also, if a majority of Pakistanis want the parades to occur, then Yes. Otherwise No. I think many Pakistanis consider the parades to be more than a wasteful display. Though I cannot say it with certainity.....

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