Ashura: Atonement, Mourning and Return

re: 66 bhitai
interesting points - will get back to you in a couple of days - too much work these days - and dont mind naqshbandi - he`s lets just say a bit --challenged - you can fill in the blanks.

#86
tahmed sahib,

challenge accepted!

Haath kangan ko aarsi kiya hay:

``It was a power struggle for the throne. Nothing to do with religion. That is all there is to this shia-sunni nonsense.

But will the ummah get this simple point?

No.

Is the ummah stupid?

Yup. ``

I found these statements : offensive, arrogant, judgemental, incisive, and above all - uneducated!

Apparently you are `Aql-e-Kul and the rest are vegetables..

I guess according to you, 1400 years and many oppressive regimes (including saddam and hajjaj) later, the `stupid` ummah havent gotten a simple point: yazid and hussain were just two princes fighting for the `throne`! as simple as that!

I construe this comment as the ultimate slander against my imam - equating the oppressor and the oppressed, Qatil and maqtool, is like equating Moses and Pharoah as two equals who might have fought over some worldly gains!

And thanks for your supportiveness with regards to targetted killings of shias - but I guess if the literate people are as arrogant as you, we can very well imagine how uncontrollable will be the juhala - hence the killings!

anyway if you are willing to continue this diagloue, I won`t be around to respond..we can indeed carry this discussion offline..

christ had a political difference with the romans .............


.......... it really warms the cockles of my heart to see religious bigots like naqshbandi on one side and bhitai on the other claw at each other`s throats ............ and then you have smug ``non-sectarian`` muslims like tahmed who are trying to capture the moral high ground where there is none ............ there is no such thing as a non-sectarian religious person because, by definition, all religions are cults or sects - some small and some big ............. when tahmed said that mr hussain, mr ali`s son and mr muhammad`s grandson, was engaged in a ``political`` struggle against mr yazid he repeated the ultimate insult against the shias .............. it is like saying that mr jesus, son of ms. mary and mr god, had a political difference with the romans!.............. it is blasphemy !............ next thing you know people will be saying that mr muhammad was engaged in a power struggle for the control of the date palms of mecca ................was he?.......... god knows....... or does he?.......... i read somewhere that he died on the cross .............

RE: #78 by qambar
Qambar is correct. All Muslims, irregardless of their sect, should strongly condemn the massacre of Shias in Pakistan and Iraq. This was the most barbaric act in recent memory. I whehemently oppose such acts and feel that people behind such acts should get the harshest of penalties. In this spriit I would like to see other chowkies voice their sentiment loudly and clearly condemning these recent acts.

Bhitai #76 You accuse me of the following:

``1. belittle or dismiss azadari
2. belittle Al Hussain, knowing that he`s revered by millions as an `Imam`
3. label association with hussain or muharram rituals as sectarian institutions.. ``

I challenge you to substantiate your charges by cutting and pasting from my posts where I have said this.

I did point to what was clearly a self-contradictory statement in your post. The reason I said they are self-contradictory is because whereas I pointed to the fact that the divergence in islam between sunni and shiasm stems from a political event - a battle for the throne. This should be hardly news too you. You (without specifying) assured me that the differences were much more profound and referred me to study books. My brain tells me that by doing this you are promoting sectariansim.

You have failed to respond to this. Instead you have chosen to respond with accusations for things I never said. I hope you will do better than that if you chose to respond to this post. Thank you.


PS: And dont think I am not mad at sunnis who kill shias - I am appalled at the targetted murders of 70 shia doctors, and at the savage attacks on shia processions. These are animals we are dealing with. There should be no higher priority for the pakistan government than to track down these killers and charge and punish them as the murderers that they are.

So I hope we can keep this discussion a rational and friendly one, and if at the end we dont agree that is fine. Any offensive words from me would be my weakness, and if you point out anything I have said so far that is unreasonable or offensive I will acknowledge my mistake. But please dont accuse me of things I never said, as you did above.

#78 qambar
I`m outta here man..not worth my time!

if anyone wants to take this discussion offline, I can be reached at gentle_alien@techie.com

just a quick question to the sunnis out there

you accuse abdullah ibn saba of causing mischief because he was a ``jew`` before he became a muslim


does that lead us to presume that all converts are not to be trusted? were not all the sahaba`s kafirs before they converted?

Correction for #75
Incorrect statement: They fortified their temples and in the end the only way to rid them was to blow up the mosques...

It should read: They fortified their temples and in the end the only way to rid them was to blow up the sikh temple...

Sorry for my mistake, :-)

#73
Naqshbandi sahib,
i`d urge you to live up to the tradition of Awliya and avoid posting accusations against other groups. Remember, branding other kafirs is called Mullaiyat, and I really wished you understood that Naqshbandi and Sufi personalities have also remained on the receiving end of these `fatawa` !

Wasn`t Bayazid Bastami labeled a heretic?
Wasn`t Ibn-Arabi labeled Kaffir (and an undercover shii)?
Wasnt Hussain ibn Mansoor Al Hallaj murdered because of these fatawa of takfir?
Wasn`t Sarmad a victim of Takfir-mafia?

You like to open a takfir shop here, be our guest. We won`t inshallah stoop that low. This forum has witnessed some careless accusation hurled against Imam Al husain (that you refer to as Alahis salam), yet you didn`t register any protest. All your energy has been devoted to cutting and pasting anti-shii material..I find it pretty strange!

Correction for #75
Incorrect statement: They fortified their temples and in the end the only way to rid them was to blow up the mosques...

It should read: They fortified their temples and in the end the only way to rid them was to blow up the sikh temple...

Sorry for my mistake, :-)

How does one know if one is a shia or sunni, or ahmediya, or sufi, or what ever sect of Islam? Can one tell just by one`s name? I would be interested to know.

Too bad so much violence has been part of life in South Asia. It would be great if we had a constitution like the US. Then we could only have to worry about whether to vote for a democrat or republican (or independent).

Any comments on the future of Bush in 2004? He is good for Pakistan reform process to progress, I think. But Kerry will be too neutral and will focus on domestic problems here.

bhitai sahib

---

indeed the lines of poetry by imam shafi`i are beautiful and any real sunni will have no problem with that. You talk of unity but the problem is not with us bro it is with YOU (shias). See, excluding a tiny minority of extremist wahabis like azam tariq and sipah e sahaba, no sunni supports yazid. at best our ulama consider him fasiq and fajir. we love imam husayn alayhisalam and the ahlul bayt. sunnis also commemorate imam e aali maqaam`s martyrdom. in our own house we did a khatm o ashura for the martyrs of the ahlul bayt. some of the bet marsiya have been written by sunnis: read ``zikr e shahadat`` by mawlana hassan raza khan rahmatullah alayhi! one of the verses is:

ahle e bayt e paak se gustaakhiyaan , bay-baakiyaaN!
la`anatullah alaykum ay dushmanaan e ahle bayt!

so you cannot accuse us of not loving the ahlul bayt! See, we love everyone: we love Allah, we love Huzoor Paak, we love all the Sahaba, we love the Ahlul Bayt, we love the Imams, we love all of the wives of the Prophet, we love Sayyidina Abu Bakr, we love Sayyidina Umar, we love Sayyidina Uthman and we love Sayyidina Ali! Wallahi we love Imam Ali MORE than you love Ali! (ridwan Allah alayhi ajma`in). Now look at you: apart from a few Sahaba you accuse most of them of being murtads and munafiqs! You hate Sayyidina Abu Bakr and Sayyidina Umar and Sayyidina Uthman! You abuse them! Your books are full of the most disgusting attacks on their character written by your ulama and mullahs! See, when we don`t attack the centre of your love (Imam Ali) why do you attack the centre of our love (Sayyidina Abu Bakr and the other 3 khulafa e Rashidin) ? This all shows that the Shia call for unity whilst abusing the Sahaba and the centres of our love is just a stunt and a sham. Never will you find in any Sunni book any abuse of the Ahlul Bayt! Indeed we`d consider such a person a kafir if he abused the ahlul bayt!!

Khawaja Muinuddin was a Sunni Hanafi saint yet he loved the ahlul bayt:
shah ast Hussain, badshah ast Hussain, deen ast, deen panah ast Hussain
Sar daad, na daad dast dar dast i Yazid, Haqqah ke bina e La ilaha ast Hussain!

these immortal lines are written by a Sunni not a Shia!!

So stop blaming us when the fault lies within yourselves.

To Naqshbandi: Wow, you really do have a monopoly on the truth. You accuse Shias of selective interpretation and using lies to forward their claims. A look at your most recent post #73 displays the irony of your statements. Don`t you think you are being selective in your analysis by making Khomeini the sole representative of Shias. He was political leader who is dead. Just like if Shias started looking at Sunnis being solely representated by Azam Tariq and Maulana Ashraf Thanvi. As for your constant refrain of Shias being deserters/rafizis, accursed and liars; well they are more revelatory of your motivations, than the entire casus belli that you have pieced together as your vitriolic against the Shias. If Shias try to counter anti-Shia propaganda, its selective quotation and lies. However, when they are abused and condemned through these very means, its analysis. Wow, you give new meaning to a Catch 22 situation.

People like Bhittai and myself were touched that Kyla empathized with the massacre of Shias in Pakistan and Iraq. We made our point of view. However, judging by comments made by you and tahmed32, I think its like talking to a brick wall. I repeat what I said earlier; why waste everybody`s time by targeting minority sects and in turn waste their time by constantly having to defend their beliefs. Why not utilize that time to really see why it is that you are so insecure about your own beliefs that any mention of Shias (excluding the Zaydi sect) triggers such a pathological response. I have no doubt that you will come up with an even more sophisticated response to this post. But you are missing the point.
Your attitude of condemnation against the Shias (excluding Zaydis) makes one despondent of further constructive dialogue.

To tahmed32: Since you mention the Quran, I don`t remember EVER having posited the references pertaining to my ``favourite`` sect as being mutually exclusive from the Quran.
My references were simply provided to enhance the understanding of Shiite beliefs; beliefs which are based on the Quran. In post #76, Bhittai has continued with his concilatory, tolerant and inclusive approach. However, since you and Naqshbandi have set yourselves up as supreme judges to condemn those who don`t agree with you, I really cannot see how you all can look beyond yourselves.

I was just daydreaming and I just got curious to know whether there a Shia and Sunni distiction among the Americal Black Muslims? I do not know any Nation of Islam followers but if anybody knows I would be very interested to know. Also, is there a Shia & Sunni distinction among Kurds. By the way what are Kurds? Are ther like Gypsys? I read somewhere that Gypsys are originally from India. My only experience with a Gypsy was the one that I once banged in France but she did not know what the hell she was. But she was one of the most beautiful girls I ever banged. On a scale of 1-10 she was a 15. Something like Nicole Kiddman but a bit darker and with green eyes and rust color hair. Her body was very very nice. But back to the topic, please let me know about the Shia - Sunni distinction among Americans. I could use this info in my interactions with people.

#74:
Correction: when did any shia thrust his idealogy in your throat. I was inviting you for a `critical study`? I just don`t know why you feel threatened at the sight of any hint of a educated and polite (i guess it would mean avoid using derogatory words!!) discussion!!


As for sectarianism: I will say `nice try` but I ain`t falling into this trap. Here is how I see your approach:
1. belittle or dismiss azadari
2. belittle Al Hussain, knowing that he`s revered by millions as an `Imam`
3. label association with hussain or muharram rituals as sectarian institutions..
AND
4. if someone tries to resist your offensive comments (e.g. calling Al Husain power hungry),
label his remarks SECTARIAN!

wah ji wah..chit bhee apni putt bhee apni!!

Yes Quran is against sectarianism, but quran is also against injustice and distortion of the truth. If you label our Imam and Ulil Amr AlHusain as power hungry: don`t expect that we`ll not take offense and engage you in a dialogue(provided you`ve done your homework of course, an offer you declined, this time politely for a change!)

As opposed to your 4-point agenda, I have my own that reconciles shii-sunni with Quranic injunction against sectarianism. They keyword here is : ACCEPTANCE, which apparently is pretty scarce on this forum. anyway here`s the agenda:

1. start with commonalities. Muharram is one such occassion. Consider the fact: noone wants to celebrate the victory of Yazid anyway, so why not commemorate Imam`s death and share the sorrow with your brethren (again if you consider them your brethren!).
2. if you can`t do that, atleast be TOLERANT toward these rituals, and avoid inciting emotions!
3. accept the fact that multiple INTERPRETATIONS of Quran and sunna exist, and this is a sad fact of history which can`t be undone. This means avoiding imposing one version of islam on others (that`s the Saudi way, rather unpopular these days)..
4. promote love and peace, esp. the message of Awliya Allah, the sufi saints, Khwaja Chishti, Shah Bhitai and Nizamuddin Awliya. These saints would welcome anyone under their banner. Since they aren`t a BIT controversial, they make a good rallying point for all!

my response to sajanjua falls under #3, all I did was react to what I found offensive, by offering an alternate version of events.. Call it treason, call it sectarianism, or whatever - may be I`ll let Imam Shafii(do you know him?) respond :

He who asks blessing for the one sent from the Tribe of Hashim (Rasoulullah saw),
But attacks his sons; truly, that is strange!
And if my sin is love of the Family of Muhammad:
Then that is a sin which I do not repent

..taken from Imam Shafii`s marsiya(nasqshbandi sahib, sher mualhiza ho!)

RE: jang #71.
The prize was the leadership of a emerging society that would have the power to control the people (i.e., its followers). Think of ot as a bunch of guys that can control everyone because they have the sanction by God. They would have absolute power (through Fatwas and the like). These people would have so much control that they would become like God. This is my intrepretation. I know I will get a lot of brick bats for my views but this is what I truly believe.

Also, in response to Tahmed32 (RE: #72 & 74).
I agree with him that sipah sahab and all these lashkars are purely criminal organizations set up to control the people (through terror [as in India] and also through intimidation [as in Pakistan]). These ``students`` of the Qu`ran never try to understand the meaning and spirit behind the written word. They take obscure passeges out of context and twist them to suite their needs. That is what controlling the society is all about. They run these madrassas and just make the people memorize and recite the Qu`ran. Many of these so called students end up becoming thugs which the mullas use as henchmen to intimidate and terrorize the population. They make armories out of Mosques, much in the same way the Khalistanis in India did in the Punjab. They fortified their temples and in the end the only way to rid them was to blow up the mosques, like it was done in Amritsar. I have many sikh and hindu friends and they now see all that was happening for so many years. It is sad to say that the same situation in our homeland with these Mullas and madrassa types. It is time to blow up these mosques and hopefully our (i.e., US) troops who are stationed there will do exactly that. Anyway, I am an American now so I do not have to deal with all the crap going on in Pakistan.

All these islamic types on this board are so full of crap it is rediculous. They want to bring in a system that is so behind our time that it is no longer valid. They feel the barbaric way is the way that the world can be ruled. They have no decency at all. If they like it so much whay dont they go back where they came from?