The Case for Sonia Gandhi!

hossp #61

This is getting tiresome. I’m not quite sure where you’re coming from. You seem to habitually make unwarranted inferences and interpolations from fragmentary evidence. You then fail to modify your initial assumptions even after being told that your original hypothesis was incorrect. There may also be recurring problems of reading comprehension. I’m not trying to be insulting here; I see these as genuine problems coming in the way of communication.

I don’t have the energy to clear up every single misconception or inappropriate inference in your post. I don’t want a boring tangential discussion to double in size with every iteration, so my response will be incomplete. Make of it what you will.

In #46 I gave you reasons for why I believe Sonia is political damaged goods – why (even if she had any brains) she doesn’t have the freedom of manoeuvre that another politician might have, and that a Prime Minister of India should have. As a generic error, you seem to have confused my assessment of what significant numbers of Indians think (and have written), with my own personal opinions and convictions. It’s not quite clear whether the confusion is in your comprehension or in your subsequent expression (or in both places).

{{Are you sure you support BJP here?}}

Whatever gives you the idea that I “support BJP” as such? I see you’ve made this mistake not just with me but with others as well. If you were to ask me, I’d tell you in detail what I think about them. I’m fundamentally not a supporter of any party line; it’s not my nature.

{{What is coming out here is that If you are not Hindu, you cannot be trusted, and your loyalty is questionable. If you and many others also subscribe to it then it is a serious problem in Indian body politics and it is almost as bad as being Taliban or may be just a shade below.}}

I need to repeat: So far to have no clue what my background is or what opinions I subscribe to. If you’d asked me specific questions before going out on a limb, I’d probably have told you.

It is an annoying waste of my energy to have to painfully correct you at length on every one of these stupid misconceptions and wild inferences. I’m not about to deny for your benefit imbecile opinions that I don’t subscribe to in the first place.

{{The issue then is not just “The way the world works” but is much larger.}}

What is larger than the world? Similar issues have repeatedly cropped up in democracies the world over, even fairly mature ones like the US. Electoral politics is a dirty game.

{{Guess! I caught you red-handed:) You provided proof in your post.}}

I need to repeat: You have no clue. Your naive over-confidence doesn’t help you either. Some of my strong opinions (‘prejudices’ if you will) are out in the open. The ones I’m embarrassed about are very well hidden. You have no idea what they are.

hossp #61

{{Do you realize how big a headache it is? I think you have not thought through this and you are making wrong assumptions by saying that BJP will question your loyalty to the country if you’re a Christian supporting Sonia.}}

I’ll try to be polite. I as an Indian will not attempt to sermonize to you, as a Pakistani Sindhi or Mohajir or Pathan (or whatever your background is) on what your personal equation with your country and its government should be; on how you should perceive your interests and those of your family; on how you think you can best protect those interests. I assume that you are paying close attention to what affects you directly; have many more sources of information than I do, have a good idea how to weigh them for accuracy and significance, so you are far better-qualified to judge than me – even if I occasionally read the Pakistani press.

I will at most attempt to show up patent falsehoods and absurdities if any (which some other Pakistanis definitely indulge in).

So far I see no sign that you have any detailed knowledge of what’s going on in India. Very few Pakistanis do in any case. I do see a great deal of unjustified overconfidence. Just where do you think you get off lecturing Indians on whether they’ve thought things through when it comes to their personal situations?

{{How much shallow can one get to bring this up? So the point again is Sonia is bad because she “MAY” practice “soft Hinduvta” or be forced into “soft Hinduvta”}}

“MAY” practice? Get a clue. For instance, read up on last year’s state elections to the Madhya Pradesh assembly. One of the Congress slogans began “Gai hamari mata hai, ..”. What was the second line?

{{Relying on Maneka, the airhead herself for testimony is not credible.}}

Maneka an airhead? She’s an advocate for the environment, animal rights, vegetarianism. Eccentric but quite articulate and definitely not stupid. You badly need to get a clue.

{{I am sure Sonia is probably as much of a space cadet as the pinhead we have in the WH.}}

You are wrong. For the last time, get a clue.

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hossp #63
Criticising Congress`s communal record is not equivalent to excusing BJP`s communal record or supporting the BJP.

Opponents of the BJP (including myself) wish the Congress to be strong enough to challenge the BJP, as DIDNOT happen in the Gujarat Assembly elections, because Congress`s record in Gujarat was so bad.

Did such a situation arise because the Congress`s traditional supporters and fellow-secularists didnot hold Congress accountable for its bad record earlier? People who oppose BJP may not be willing to take that chance again.

``I guess BJP is accepting responsibility for its “horrible” communal record and it sounds “credible.”

I have not heard or seen BJP taking responsibility for its horrible communal record. A speech here or there by Advani or Vajpayee doesnot constitute BJP taking responsibility.

hossp 363,

Unfortunately, such is the power of perception in an immature democracy such as
ours. The BJP is unabashedly communal, and feels no need to modify their stand -
it is a part of their manifesto. It is at its core a fascist outfit, trying to become a
more mainstream conservative political outfit. I would have to say that with people
like Vajpayee, it has achieved this goal.

The Congress on the other hand mouths secular niceties, but in real terms has an
equally disastrous communal record. The brutality of the Delhi riots was in no way
less than Gujarat. Thus, to gain any amount of credibility, the Congress has to explicitly
apologise and make amends for Delhi 84 and the numerous other riots it had
engineered. With the recent attempts to co-opt soft hindutva, the party`s secular
credentials ring particularly hollow. In electoral terms, they really need to re-define
the debate and not offer themselves up as BJP-lite on all issues.

I personally don`t see Sonia as having the intellectual or political wherewithal to
pull this off or even remotely shape the nature of political debate. She is seen
merely as a weak extension of the dynasty; more as an object of curiosity than
a serious political opponent.

#52 by Faruk
``The problem is that Indian Muslims have not used that education as well as their Hindu counterparts.``

I kind of agree with this and I believe that the Gulf Gold rush has some contribution to this. I dont have any statistics but an anecdotal example. I grew-up near two families, living in opposite apartments, one hindu, and one muslim. The aprtments were in a govt. colony and the fathers were from the similar area in kokan, and did similar clerical jobs.
The kids both finished 10-th grade around when the gulf rush was really on. The muslim guy used to regale us with stories of how he would go to the gulf, where he had easy jobs available etc. We loved his sabri bros quwali collection. Hind guy really wanted to go to gulf too, but he decided to finish his dipl. in engg after 10-th grade and then try his luck. Mr. Sheikh was off to the ptro$ land after 10-th grade, and came back after many years and odd jobs, some money, and a more conservative outlook. Once back, the money was not sufficient for ever, enough to start a small retail bussiness. His kids were exposed to so called ``lower-middle`` class env hoping to join dad in not-so growing bussiness. Other guy, did his 4-yr diploma, (none of the IIT stuff here) took some courses in german (in place of arabic) and joined mahindra for years. He had a simpler lifestyle initially, but his education and german got him on a good enough technical path, and he is now a hot property in global auto-hub india, with his kids growing in a firm middle-class env and are definatley looking upwardly.

So, lacking the easier gulf money, kids of both generation would have had a chance to enjoy similar equal opportunities available in the current rising tide...may be the will still have! Who knows?

Sadna #56

“The point is, providing a genuinely better alternative to the BJP`s horrible communal record appears to a simple matter. However, Sonia Gandhi and other Congress leaders need to accept responsibility for their party`s own problematic communal record if they want to sound credible.”

BJP’s communal record is “horrible” and congress’s communal record is “problematic”.

So, the Congress have to accept responsibility for its “Problematic” record and sound “credible” before it can challenge the party with “horrible” record.

If congress fails to accept responsibility for its “problematic” record we will vote for the party with “horrible” communal record.

I guess BJP is accepting responsibility for its “horrible” communal record and it sounds “credible.”

This is bizarre!!!!!

May be arjun can provide a link to the story where BJP has accepted responsibility for its “Horrible” communal record.

I will take lesser evil of the two!!!!!!

Puhleeeese!!! Don’t go overboard with your support of BJP. It is sounds “horrible” and NOT “credible” at all.


#57 by arjun_m on March 9, 2004 1:12pm PT
{{{This is the kind of idiocy encouraged by the congress...sing vande materam, get expelled...

54 Muslims expelled for singing ‘Vande Mataram’ praises }}}}

So now this is encouraged by Congress. Find some other dirt Arjun man.

Did not see any Congress leader in your post supporting the Mufti.

#16 Romair

+++++
Have the Bengalis recovered from a genaration of discrimination? Maybe that is why they are still poor(er).
+++++

Bangladesh has not only caught up with Pakistan but it can be argued that it is doing better.

Bangladesh isn`t infested with Talibans or Al Qaeda operators.
Bangladeshi women are better educated than their Pakistani sisters.
Bangladeshi military, unlike the Pak military, is no longer into dictating.

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/pdf/presskit/HDR03_PKE_HDI.pdf

Rankings In 2003 UNDP Human Development Report:

Norway 1
United States 7
Maldives 86
Sri Lanka 99
China 104
India 127
Bhutan 136
Bangladesh 139
Nepal 143
Pakistan 144
Sierra Leone 175

#19 mohar 11

+++++
Those small % of pakistanis that did well in west pakistan would have done so even if they stayed back in India.
+++++


Daily Times, Pakistan
Tuesday, November 04, 2003

Pakistan and South Asian Muslims
By Ishtiaq Ahmed

[The author is an associate professor of Political Science at
Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address
is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se]

..... Apart from East Punjab where ethnic cleansing was almost complete, several of the staunchest protagonists of the Pakistan demand, among them Raja Sahib Mahmudabad, Hasrat Mohani, Begum Aizaz Rasul, Nawab Mohammad Ismail Khan, Raja of Pirpur (author of the Pirpur Report of 1937) and Mohammad Asadullah of Assam, chose to stay in India. Some left for Pakistan later but others who had gone to Pakistan returned to India. Why? I don`t know, but it is something on which more research needs to be done. On the whole it was primarily the upper middle-class and the salariat that immigrated to Pakistan.

Pakistan came into being in those areas where Muslims were in a majority. Such areas did not need as much protection from Hindu Raj as those in which Muslims were in a minority. Most of them were converts from Dalit and other depressed sections of society. They needed more help than anyone else in coming to Pakistan, but they were advised to become good and loyal Indians. I am sure the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh also come from the poorest sections of society and therefore they too have no takers in Pakistan.

#19 mohar11

+++++
Those small % of pakistanis that did well in west pakistan would have done so even if they stayed back in India.
+++++

Well some of them defnitely did well to move to Pakistan and grow rich on the booty left behind by the non-Muslims:

Professor Gul Agha, an eminent Pakistani-American scientist at the University of Illinois wrote:

``The reality is that over 1200 Sindhi Hindus were systematically massacred by incoming refugees from India in just 2 days -- Jan. 6-8, 1948. The property of tens of thousands was looted and they were made destitute with the connivance of the Pakistani government. When the Sindh government demanded a return of looted property, it was dismissed by the Pakistani goverment. The Hindu exodus from Sindh`s cities was the result of such crimes against humanity.``

I understand that Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan played a crucial role in the above tragedy. He had been a legislator in UP in pre-partition days. After partition, he had to get himself into Pakistan`s Constituent Assembly as a legislator from East Pakistan! Faced with the need of creating a constituency for himself in West Pakistan, Liaqat Ali Khan planned, aided and abetted the events in Professor Gul Agha`s post.

Come to think of it, the half million Hindu Sindhis who were driven into exile at India`s partition have a far stronger cause for grievance than the half million Palestinians who went into exile at Palestine`s partition. The Palestinians can easily choose to be be at home in any of the 22 Arab countries who speak the same language as them. Such is not the case with the Hindu Sindhis who were forced into the Diaspora in 1947 and who must live in lands where the Sindhi language can at best try to survive unobtrusively in a non-Sindhi land.

AlephNull 41& 46

(Hint: my background, and my prejudices, subliminal or otherwise, are not what you most likely guessed at first.)
Guess! I caught you red-handed:) You provided proof in your post. I will just highlight that for you.
(Sonia Gandhi’s commitment to India has been questioned…….….Rajiv sought refuge in the Italian embassy immediately after the 1977 Lok Sabha election results…. The foreigner issue just won’t go away. )
Rajiv sought refuge in Italian Embassy and that was never held against him but lets pull this one over Sonia because She was born Italian and was probably doing the best Indian tradition of wife following the stupid husband no matter what. I really did not expect this to appear in your argument. How about her catching fancy to become Indian citizen or the PM? Your argument does not fly. Did Indra Gandhi “catch fancy” to be born to Nehru because she wanted to be PM of India? You can’t hold circumstances against her. If wishes were horses, we all would have liked to know the future.

The foreign issue won’t go away because BJP is sticking it to her repeatedly. It is becoming like Vietnam! You are damned either way. I doubt that it is a make or break issue at all. No doubt it is an issue if you have friendly press. Political posturing aside, this issue can only exist in fragile middleclass minds as Sonia had won elections in spite of it.

You claim that She has at least two major handicaps. 1) She is an Italian born and 2) She is a Christian. If BJP is playing this game in India as you say it is, then Muslims, Christians, and other minorities don’t have much to look for in India. Are you sure you support BJP here? What is coming out here is that If you are not Hindu, you cannot be trusted, and your loyalty is questionable. If you and many others also subscribe to it then it is a serious problem in Indian body politics and it is almost as bad as being Taliban or may be just a shade below.
The issue then is not just “The way the world works” but is much larger.

{This is an unwanted headache for 25 million Indians of Christian background, who suddenly find their loyalties called into by question}

Do you realize how big a headache it is? I think you have not thought through this and you are making wrong assumptions by saying that BJP will question your loyalty to the country if you’re a Christian supporting Sonia. Then you also say that Fernandes Indianness is beyond question but what if Fernandes decides to support Sonia, does his Indianness becomes questionable then?

{ I disagree. I don’t think the BJP is reactive or on the back foot here; it has been systematically looking to expand its base, eating away at groups that used to be reliable Congress ‘vote-banks.}

Now here you say that BJP is courting groups so it can expand its base especially where congress has some influence. A political party cannot expand its base in a community whom the party finds not loyal because of the religion, or by antagonising the community first. I doubt that Indian Muslims or Christians can’t see this game if in deed this is what BJP is doing.

I still think that congress and the nature of Indian politics has forced the BJP to put a more benign face on or it will find itself moving away from the mainstream. I think BJP is also using better relations with Pakistan to woo Muslim votes.

{{Because of her vulnerability on these ‘identity’ issues, Sonia, or any party or government headed by her, will lack the flexibility to do the right thing whenever any contentious or divisive issue crops up…. So the best than one could expect from a Sonia dispensation is a ‘soft Hindutva’ on the part of the government together with a succession of controversies custom-engineered by the opposition. }}}

How much shallow can one get to bring this up? So the point again is Sonia is bad because she “MAY” practice “soft Hinduvta” or be forced into “soft Hinduvta” therefore we support the party that will practice “hard Hinduvta”. I believe you are also suggesting that if Sonia is in power, opposition can or will use “custom engineered controversies``. Therefore, it is best to let BJP in control, then the question of “custom Engineered controversies” would not arise.

I think we may need to think through this careful. Does this mean that BJP has blackmailed Indian into supporting it or BJP will custom engineer controversies if it is not in power?

{{{But over and above these factors, it is completely unclear what Sonia Gandhi stands for, what her real opinions are on issues, whether she even has a mind of her own. Her estranged sister-in-law (Maneka Gandhi) made a catty remark some years back on the lines of “There’s nothing upstairs except cooking.” }}}

I think that is the real point: how much do we know of where the congress and Sonia stand on issues. Did BJP has shown its hand on issues?

Better still, what are those issues that we are talking about? That’s what I am trying to figure out. What are the issues in Indian elections and where both or all major parties stand on them. Wouldn’t it be better if we see a list of issues that matter and then compare notes on parties?

I think clearly one major issue that is shaping up is secularism vs the communalism. I think BJP is trying to shed stigma of being a communal party and congress is pointing to the deception of BJP when BJP claims that Sonia cannot be PM because she is not born Indian and she is a Christian. I think as elections progress the BJP will be increasingly defending its record on communal politics and would attempt to ally itself with the middle of the road secular thinking.

Relying on Maneka, the airhead herself for testimony is not credible. I am sure Sonia is probably as much of a space cadet as the pinhead we have in the WH.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=42655
Fighting communalism is nothing but fighting the selfishness of a group


This guy seems to make sense.

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