Pakistan: Inside The Nuclear Closet

i aint read all ur article cuz it`s too long, but from what i av gathered, u`r full of bull. first of all, it`s every guy`z fantasy to be a porn star ennit? & u`r livin it? - lol!!! u`r (were) on drugs - how awful, u`r admittin 2ur problemz, hey u`r a step closer 2progress!! i gotta say, 4sumone on (was on) drugz, u hav gr8 skin, wot`s ur secret? pleeeeeeeeeease, i need to pee!!!!!!

u wannit 2knw about ur roots; it`s amazin how people like u dnt knw ur origins, even after livin in pakistan durin ur childhood? luk up about the taj mahal, they`re our ancestors, we originate from the moughals, who didn`t die but were over - ruled by the brits. the royal family hav our jewel - kohinoor - which was displayed on the queen mother`s coffin on the day of her funeral - it`s a beautiful stone & it`s ours. no matter wot the situation of our economy is, u shud neva be ashamed of ur roots, `cuz if u read up how the moughals originate from the ottoman empire, our utmost beginning, u`ll be proud of how our blood is a compound of warriors - & we don`t actually come from the indian nation, we only ruled it, most of our ancestors are mainly afghans but originally turks/greeks, travellin across the mid east, past iran (persians) & inheritin a few of their genes along too. we also hav heritage from genghis kahn`s reign sumwhere along the line too, his son became muslim. all this is why the muslims in india & pakistan look different in colour & features to hindus & sikhs, with the exception of reverts ofcourse. pakistanis shud be classin themselves as warriors for independancy, & their culture should be islamic as that is what `pak` (paak saaf) stands for. but we enjoy our cultures alongside such as our food, clothes, harvest festivals, folk music, & yes, all this is similar yet different to the indians because of our climate. i too am a pakistani from lahore, & i love my roots even though i have visited my land only twice in my whole life. i hav lived in the uk ever since i wasn born but i am still as patriotic towards my home as my father is. it`s our identity & we shouldn`t forget it, insh`Allah.

best wishes, fiz.

i aint read all ur article cuz it`s too long, but from what i av gathered, u`r full of bull. first of all, it`s every guy`z fantasy to be a porn star ennit? & u`r livin it? - lol!!! u`r (were) on drugs - how awful, u`r admittin 2ur problemz, hey u`r a step closer 2progress!! i gotta say, 4sumone on (was on) drugz, u hav gr8 skin, wot`s ur secret? pleeeeeeeeeease, i need to pee!!!!!!

u wannit 2knw about ur roots; it`s amazin how people like u dnt knw ur origins, even after livin in pakistan durin ur childhood? luk up about the taj mahal, they`re our ancestors, we originate from the moughals, who didn`t die but were over - ruled by the brits. the royal family hav our jewel - kohinoor - which was displayed on the queen mother`s coffin on the day of her funeral - it`s a beautiful stone & it`s ours. no matter wot the situation of our economy is, u shud neva be ashamed of ur roots, `cuz if u read up how the moughals originate from the ottoman empire, our utmost beginning, u`ll be proud of how our blood is a compound of warriors - & we don`t actually come from the indian nation, we only ruled it, most of our ancestors are mainly afghans but originally turks/greeks, travellin across the mid east, past iran (persians) & inheritin a few of their genes along too. we also hav heritage from genghis kahn`s reign sumwhere along the line too, his son became muslim. all this is why the muslims in india & pakistan look different in colour & features to hindus & sikhs, with the exception of reverts ofcourse. pakistanis shud be classin themselves as warriors for independancy, & their culture should be islamic as that is what `pak` (paak saaf) stands for. but we enjoy our cultures alongside such as our food, clothes, harvest festivals, folk music, & yes, all this is similar yet different to the indians because of our climate. i too am a pakistani from lahore, & i love my roots even though i have visited my land only twice in my whole life. i hav lived in the uk ever since i wasn born but i am still as patriotic towards my home as my father is. it`s our identity & we shouldn`t forget it, insh`Allah.

best wishes, fiz.

i aint read all ur article cuz it`s too long, but from what i av gathered, u`r full of bull. first of all, it`s every guy`z fantasy to be a porn star ennit? & u`r livin it? - lol!!! u`r (were) on drugs - how awful, u`r admittin 2ur problemz, hey u`r a step closer 2progress!! i gotta say, 4sumone on (was on) drugz, u hav gr8 skin, wot`s ur secret? pleeeeeeeeeease, i need to pee!!!!!!

u wannit 2knw about ur roots; it`s amazin how people like u dnt knw ur origins, even after livin in pakistan durin ur childhood? luk up about the taj mahal, they`re our ancestors, we originate from the moughals, who didn`t die but were over - ruled by the brits. the royal family hav our jewel - kohinoor - which was displayed on the queen mother`s coffin on the day of her funeral - it`s a beautiful stone & it`s ours. no matter wot the situation of our economy is, u shud neva be ashamed of ur roots, `cuz if u read up how the moughals originate from the ottoman empire, our utmost beginning, u`ll be proud of how our blood is a compound of warriors - & we don`t actually come from the indian nation, we only ruled it, most of our ancestors are mainly afghans but originally turks/greeks, travellin across the mid east, past iran (persians) & inheritin a few of their genes along too. we also hav heritage from genghis kahn`s reign sumwhere along the line too, his son became muslim. all this is why the muslims in india & pakistan look different in colour & features to hindus & sikhs, with the exception of reverts ofcourse. pakistanis shud be classin themselves as warriors for independancy, & their culture should be islamic as that is what `pak` (paak saaf) stands for. but we enjoy our cultures alongside such as our food, clothes, harvest festivals, folk music, & yes, all this is similar yet different to the indians because of our climate. i too am a pakistani from lahore, & i love my roots even though i have visited my land only twice in my whole life. i hav lived in the uk ever since i wasn born but i am still as patriotic towards my home as my father is. it`s our identity & we shouldn`t forget it, insh`Allah.

best wishes, fiz.

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Hi.

The Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission remained the overall incharge of the bomb programme under Chairman Munir Ahmad Khan (1972-91). They initiated the Kahuta project before A.Q.Khan came, and the plutonium programme. They built and exploded the bomb, and were responsible for all the 23 steps, before and after uranium enrichment. They also provided crucial technical input to A.Q.Khan, and uranium hexafloride, UF-6, which is a crucial ingredient for enriching uranium, without which the `gas` centrifuges cannot work, is produced by PAEC and handed over to KRL to be pumped into the centrifuges for enrichment. Uranium can only be enriched as UF-6 thru the gas centrifuge method. A.Q.Khan did not bring a magic wand with him from URENCO. He was one among other scientists of who were working in Europe on the same technology, and who came to Pakistan and established KRL under Bashiruddin Mahmud, before A.Q.Khan came and took over.

A.Q.Khan asked for and got the best PAEC scientists and engineers, and 75% of KRL staff initially came from PAEC. He had total financial and adminitrative autonomy in KRL, and where as PAEC remained under strict controls right up to the Chairman level, there were no checks on A.Q.Khan who used the massive funds at his disposal to cultivate the myth that he was the founder of the nuclear programme and the `father` of the bomb.

The Govt used him as a decoy to shield the PAEC/PINSTECH from unwanted attention, where the real work was being done. Without PAEC`s success in masterinf the `Nuclear Fuel Cycle, and the Centre for Nuclear Studies, which produced over 2000 highly trained nuclear scientists and engineers, which formed the back bone of the programme, A.Q.Khan could not have gone further than building a machine design shop, because centrifuges are essentially a mechanical device.

In short, he stole the show from the PAEC and Munir Ahmad Khan, who chose to remain quite and not to advertise the Commission`s achievements. This enable A.Q.Khan to `hijack` all the credit, and he got away with the proliferation and got the pardon in return. No other scientist or institution indulged in such acts. AQK managed to proliferate only tech related to centrifuges, for which he was responsible, and that was all that he could sell. The UF-6 he sold was handed over to him by PAEC in the long chain of building the bomb, which he was supposed to use as Feed for KRL, after which KRL is handed over to PAEC ,which then converts in into metal and then a bomb.

Thus history is falsified, and the myth of AQK being the `father` of the bomb remains unshaken, even though he brought dishonor to Pakistan in the nuclear scandal, where as hundreds of other scientists, who were not mere metallurgist, but real nuclear experts, with international standing, and who worked silently for many decades with impeccable honesty and patriotism, remain unknown and unsung, chief among them Munir Ahmad Khan.

Regards.

I am saddened to read some of the remarks made about Dr. Hoodbhoy. He is a distinguished scholar and an intellectual of some renown, and his presence in Chowk is a major attraction for me. He has always been avowedly against nuclear weapons, particularly their possession by the United Nations P-5. If he speaks against A. Q. Khan, it is because the black market trade in nuclear weapons technology is much worse and more dangerous than nuclear weapons under close government control. He does not condone the ``legal`` existence of nuclear weapons, nor does he support the United States in this matter.

I believe that Dr Hoodbhoy`s visits to the United States are very much looked forward to, and if I had the financial means, I would travel to see him and hear him speak as well. It is one thing for people like me to live in the US and write scathing criticisms of India or Pakistan. That is easy. It is quite something else for people like Dr. Hoodbhoy to live in Pakistan and to criticize its actions. That requires courage and a belief in principles. The academic and scientific community claims Dr. Hoodbhoy as one of its own. We take pride and delight in that he is one of us. His deeply humane values are all too uncommon these days, and he is in the same mold as Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. Chowk and its readers should be proud that he is part of this growing and vibrant net community, and likewise, Pakistan should be proud of having a scientist of the highest rank as one of its own, living and working in Islamabad.

If he seems predisposed againt Khan, then that is his right. In humane terms, the scientific and intellectual contributions of a Dr Hoodbhoy or a Dr. Abdus Salaam rank head and shoulders over those of a Khan. Perhaps Chowk readers would do well to consider what this means.

It is deeply distressing that India chose to have nuclear weapons, and that Pakistan responded in kind. Khan`s sin in this respect is that he took it one step further and gave the secrets away to a bidder. The more terrible question is, was he alone? Dr. Hoodbhoy and many others are simply trying to raise the level of awareness so that people can ask these questions, demand answers, and set things right.

The Khan episode will not go away, although Musharaf probably thinks it has. Like the Taliban and Kashmir problem it will come back to haunt Pakistan. It is better to demand answers now, set up institutional mechanisms to prevent this happening in the future, and to fully practice nuclear responsibility. And it is best to do this as openly as is possible. The impression given today is that the Pakistan government and military (not just Khan) are completely irresponsible. Even if this is not true, the dubious confession and speedy pardon give the impression of irresponsibility. This frightens people in other parts of the world.

Instead of attacking Dr. Hoodbhoy for raising this, we may like to give what he is saying some serious thought.

Panini

Comments for # 75.
You seem to not like it when others judge you, but are you not doing the same??
I have known a few pakistanis that are ashamed of who they are and thus, find solace in degrading their own kind. Just as not all fingers are equal, neither are people from a particular caste or ethnic group. The major step in becoming a broadminded person is to respect cultural diversity including your own culture. What you think correct may not be appropriate for others and the least you could do is understand that nobody is perfect (that includes you).
While you find so many flaws in your own culture, perhaps you should try to seek some good as well. Sometimes things are not as bad as you see, just because you are looking through the veil of prejudice.
As for your comments on sexual lifestyle, I sense that you do not as yet understand the difference between real love/friendship and sexuality. Yes the hindu girls you mention may be more sexual (due to their cultural values), but are they really loving and sincere friends??? Are they friends enough with you to tell you your flaws? Anyone can praise you on your face, but its only family or friends that can tell you the truth as they see it. You figure out which is more valuable.
And please do not marry a traditional girl, it will be hell for her. You will be doing favor to some girl by not going back to your country. An Indian friend told me that they use ``paki`` as a derogatory term, I see that you are doing the same. Why do you at all want to associate with something you lookdown upon yourself??
Marry someone American and please do not tell anyone that you are from pakistan. I am sure they don`t need people like you over there.
ciao

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kas #75 Thanks for your post. Actually, I can be quite judgemental where I think that is called for. However, what you have written about yourself really isnt as egregious as you seem to think (although I must admit that part about starring in porno movies or something was a bit of a jolt - but you are an adult and as long as you are not injuring anyone mentally or physically then what you do with your life is your business). Some comments on a couple of things you write:

a. There are unfortunately people in Pakistan who look down upon hindus as being deceiptful etc. The fact that you obviously resent such prejudice means that you are not one of them, and so you really dont have a problem here.

b. On marrying a Pakistani girl: that would certainly crimp your life-style, so I hope you wont do it until you are ready to settle down. It is much better that way than to have a miserable marriage and thus mess up your own life as well as that of the girl they married (as I have seen some individuals do in real life). I will add that after more than two decades of marriage, and while we have had to work on it, I can honestly say that a good marriage is like good wine (it gets better and better with age). I think most men have messed around before they got married more than they care to admit, and most men dont mind noticing a good looking woman even after getting married. But that does not change the fact that they remain crazy for the girl they married even after decades of living together. But, as I said, it is much better to put off marriage until you are ready to commit yourself to one woman.

Enjoyed this discussion with you. You are a very intelligent and decent person, and I wish you all the best in your real life.

Some people I know once told me that they were once driving on the winding hilly roads in Nathiagalli or one of the other nothern hill stations. Dr Qadeer Khan`s daughter Dina was driving. During that drive she over ran and killed a young boy. When they were brought to the police station all she told them was that she was Dr AQ Khan`s daughter and they let them all go without any further questioning. So immune from the law was he!!

#75 by kas2004 on March 11, 2004 1:01pm PT
I agree , hindu girls are more fun!!

jang #76 You my friend are entitled at your views.

O Hoody-Hoodwinker. America`s kuttaa.
America Lovers: look this is what could happen to you too.
Excellent op-ed . Unfortunately the illiterates claiming to know only english (jee mujhhay urdu nahee aati. MaiN uss mein weak hooN kind of riff-raff in Pakistan) would not be able to learn from this.

Tahmed.. i suspect #75 is yanking your chain...its hilarious.

Hello Tahmed,
Thanks for your kindness and overlooking my lifestyle. I am trying to change my attitude and behaviour because I am not very pleased with it also. I feel comfortable to open up to you because of your accepting and non-judgemental ways.

I still have a hard time separating the primary and secondary aspects of Pakistani culture. In some ways I can accept your arguement but in other ways I cannot, just becaise we are different in so many aspects of our life. We are certainly not like americans in our attitude. I think I understand what you mean about the universality of human values. That is common to all good socities in the world. But we have out own ways and ``culture``. My parents still have a Paki mentality. That we are distinct and should marry in Pakistanis only. Otherwise we will dilute our selved and become lost in the american society. In many ways I agree with them. Look at me. I am american and have no Paki in me. But in my mind I grew up with Paki values that clash with my american-ness. For example I have been sexually over active since 15 yrs. and I think in Pakistan this would not be allowed. Because of my american upbringing I am very open about other people and attitude. My parents re not. They want me to go to Pakistan and marry a girl from there. But I have so many girls here that I dont want to loose my freedom. I like to enjoy pleasing women. So if I marry a Paki I might be doing a bertayal to them. I dont want to do that. But now I think that I should try to know and get back to my roots. This is why I am torn inside. Part of me wants to identify with the Pakis here and part of me thinks they are so backward. Also, I dont know enough urdu to communicate with them. I want to do this to feel like I belong some where. I am neither here or there. It is a terribel place to be. I wish I could start all over again. But I have no true Paki friends. They just make fun of me. In this regard, the Indians (Hindus) are more open minded. They tolorate me and frequently dont care if I am a muslim. I like this but it again clashes with my cultural beliefs that Hindus are inferior people and that we once ruled over them. But that was a long time ago. In my hearty of hearts i dont believe that. But I think it affects my behaviour some times. My garndmother used to tell me that if you meet a hindu on the street and a snake at the same time, it is best to kill the hindu, rather than the sanke because hindus are worse than snake. I know this was ment as a half joke but these ``pearls of wisdom`` chash in my mind. my parents are also quite intolorant. They want that I never have anything to do with Indians. They do not want me to marry a hindu for example. But I have had many relations withj hindu girls and i find them more friendly and loving than their paki counterpart. So I want to enhance my Paki-ness but not in the offensive ways of my Paki friends and family. This is what I admire in you. I like the way you have opened your mind to accepting everybody as equal. You are certainly strict and have fewquently shown your temper with creaps like gijubania and those who have preceeded him. You have shown an even handedness which I would like to imbibe in my behaviour.
But I cannot wholly reconcile the primary and secondary aspects of Paki culture. I think we have a distinct lifestyle, religion (which affects our outlook in life) and language. Should we consider ourself as Persians or Arabs decendents? and take up their cultural base as a starting point? My inclination is to carve a identy that is similar to the indians since I get along with them better. I like their openmindedness. I know not all indians are openminded. What I am saking is where should I start? I would like to read more about such things and see what people say about this dilema. On religion, I must admit that I am a ham eating muslim. I have not gone to a mosque in ages and only go there when I am forced to do it with my family. Other than on paper, I have no religion. I just believe in treating people fairly. I dont believe that I should convert to another religion too. I just want to belong somewhere, as it is a comforting feeling.
Anyway, we are leaving tomorrow and I will not be interacting too much. But I will log in whenever possible to take your advice on my situation.
Khuda hafiz, my friend, If I may call you that.

Mr. Gujjubania, #71,
I do not appreciate that remark. But I understand where you are comming from. So I will not take it to heart. Please control your self.
Thanks.

What does PUKESTAN stand to gain by having a bum.
A Bum which lays dismantled, by the orders of ``Dollar-Data-Bush``!

Instead:
The world should be scared of the ``tender loving care`` as dispensed by Pukistani Police force : Responsible for the death of 2 girls (8 & 5 years old), -Raped, Sodomized, Tortutred and finally killed for the pleasure of ``Madadgar``.

The world should be scared of the interpretation of Quran, whre a rape victim is expected to produce four good men as witness to the rape. Considering the statistics of convictions, it would either seem that Pukistani women are never subjected to rape, or that Pukistqan lacks four good men!.

The world should also be afraid of the debucherous and nefarious nature of Pukistani women, who are routinely beaten, maimed, disfigured, -before being brutally hacked down for bringing ``shame to the family``. JIYE! mere Pakistani Mard Bachche! for saving the world from the ``Beghairats``.

The world should be afraid of the ``Madrasah Graduate`` who is proficient in reciting Quran, Hating Jew, Christian and Hindoo, ready to mow down the enemy of Islam (which is always in danger!) with is AK47 (supplied by the Arab Patrons). He is also good at strapping C-14 to his body and detonating it, when ever he wants to hook up with seventy two virgins.

Do you want me to continue....

# 71

That`s a disgusting remark. You should realize that no one except you is getting devalued by saying that.

I may not agree with Dr. Hoodbhoy on the emotional level but one has to give

him credit for thinking logically when many others have been lost in sentiment.

We need more Pervez Hoodbhoy`s in Pakistan.

Ras

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kas #67 What you do in real life, sir, is your business (even if you were being serious in what you wrote). My concern is only with the interesting question you raised concerning what is Pakistani culture, and I am glad you found my views on it to be worth some further thought.

The next question you put (``But what makes us (Pakistanis) distinct?``) is an interesting one too. And I will venture to toss in my two cents worth here as well. I think the short answer is: Nothing. Differences between people (based on race, nationality, religion etc.) are vastly overplayed as a result of the undue emphasis on the ``secondary`` aspects I mentioned in my previous post. And no doubt with globalization differences based on nationality (along with stereotypes etc.) will dissolve as well. As a friend of mine in college said when we were discussing this question of identity that there are two kinds of people on earth: Men and Women. The only other distinction that makes sense I think is the one based on values we live by (i.e. honest vs. dishonest people; forgiving vs. hate-filled people; and so on).

You asked about reading material. I cant think of any from the top of my head. After all, on chowk we teach stuff they dont teach at Harvard (just kidding).

kas #67 And one more thing: I will indeed look forward to what you think of the idea that the only aspect of culture that is important is values, and all other aspects (customs, dress) are secondary albeit overrated. And thanks also for the courteous nature of your posts.

Tahmed sahib. Bahut shukriya.
You have given me a sinsible answere to my question. I need to digest your comments before I can respond to it. But, I still do not know what is pakistani Culture. I understand what you are saying but those things apply to all good societies of the world. Even to the Indians. I agree that we must all maintain certain basic, universally accepted values. But what makes us distinct? I have been reacting to the secondary cultural aspects but that is superfissial, I think and you correctly point out. What about philosophy? That should be a primary cultural quality that Pakistanis should be proud of. But what is our philosophy? Surely, it is not the propogation of carnage towards india, or else where in the world. I feel that I have no philisophy to hold on to. Can you recommend any recommended reading that will put me on a even keel. I feel that I am lost and totally useless sometimes. I work in the adult entertainment industry and participate in act that to some may lok immoral. Believe me although I enjoy it, I am doing it for the money only. I feel that once I become rich I can live a decent life somewhere else where no one knows me from Adam.
Right now I fel torn and often go through phases where i become pro Pakistan and then go the other way. I need some direction. So far on chowk I have found neither, except for some people, like you who have guided me a bit. I respect you sir for your advice. But I think I am a hopleless case who will just go down the toilet. The only thing i have going for me at this time is my health and good looks. That is why I am hired for the movies and also my part time work as an escort. My part time job as an escort is quite rewarding but it is not lasting. In the end I am paid for my sex and then away I go for the next trick. I want to become normal like you guys. But I am torn because of the good money I make. My family does not know this and I am ashamed to admit my failings to them. Please advise me. I will be gone for several weeks but will log in now and then to see your responses. I hope to be back on a regular basis in a few months, but I will be very busy with my next movie which will be shooting in Florida next weekend.
Sorry for using you as a sympathesized. You are a very kind hearted person. I hope I will meet you some day in person, but I am ashamed to do it now.

wajahat #59 On Japan and Germany my point was NOT what led to WWII (as you seem to think) but what happened AFTER the war ended: i.e. that 50 years after WWII ended, Japan and Germany still permit US forces in their country. Nor is there any public pressure against continued US military presence in these countries.

GIVEN the above, and given that the Japanese and Germans are by no means stupid, the obvious conclusion is that the Japanese and Germans consider US military presence to be benign - i.e. to their advantage. They do NOT equate US military presence with imperialism or anything like that.

My point is simply that we in the muslim world need to bring ourselves up-to-date (as the Japanese and Germans already are) and realize that the Colonial Era is over. It was over the day WWII ended. Thus, as I said earlier, if Iraqis were as knowledgable as the Japanese and Germans, they would see this as a golden opportunity to build a civilized society based on laws under the umbrella of the US military. They way the Japanese and Germans did after WWII.

I fear though that the Iraqis could easily miss this bus because their society is segmented along ethnic and religious lines, and abstract concepts like rule of law are not generally understood. As such, I will tend to agree with you that Iraq could easily collapse into a bloody (and ultimately pointless) civil war. That wont happen as long as the US military is present in Iraq. But if for some reason the US leaves before Iraq has had the chance to evolve democratic traditions, then it could happen.

Then there is this joker of a woman; Dr. Shireen Mazari``. Apparantly she heads some institute that looks after, and justifies the Pakistan Army/Rightwing agenda. She is shrill, vociferous, argumentative, and a liar; highly desirable traits, especially to prop up the present regime of Mr. Mush. She is expert in twisting the facts to please Musharraf (god knows where both of them would end-up after the Dems recover the Whitehouse?). In the article published in ``Nation``, she is lamenting the audacity of Nayyar report on the state of education (ha!) in Pakistan.

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/mar2004-daily/10-03-2004/oped/o3.htm

It seems that Prof Nayyar has stepped on her tail. she has been coming out and swinging like a ``Cheap Ladakoo Bazari Laundiya``. I doubt whether she reads the garbage that is being spewed out by her. She is definitely in need of a thorough colonoscopy to check her brain functions.
I have ``googled`` her name and have come across the the lies she is spreading, her hatered for democratic values, compassion toward humanity in general; and poor Pakistanis in particular. She wants to keep the madrassah curriculum intact -may be she is on the take of petrodollars, may be she is in cahoots with Usama, Al Qayda, and Taleban. What ever it is, she is bad for Pakistan.
Dont you all agree?

Well said

kas #63 you ask ``What is Pakistani culture anyway?``

Easy. :-) The short answer is: Whatever you want it to be.

More seriously, I would phrase this question differently as follows: What aspects of culture is worth preserving? I submit that the only aspect of culture that is important are values (honesty, hard-work, learning, and so on). Everything else - language, dress, customs - is superficial and unimportant and as such of only secondary importance.

One may thus accept or reject these secondary aspects as appropriate without feeling compelled to do so. One may thus appreciate and enjoy good music and good food from any and all cultures (hindu, muslim, arab, european, chinese, japanese, african, whatever). And one may appreciate human achievements in various fields in all cultures (and in this way claim inheritance to past human achievements, regardless of which part of the world they were made in). And conversely, one may ditch what doesnt make sense in any culture (e.g. the various way in which women are suppressed in virtually all traditional societies; or the accordance of ``respect`` based on wealth).

Given this distinction between values vs. secondary aspects of culture, I think one can live a very comfortable and unconfused life in any corner of the world. You dont need to flaunt your Pakistani culture to anyone, but you can maintain an interest in it for your own personal reasons (that is, because your parents are from Pakistan). The fact that Pakistan has been at the cross-roads of history and a mixing bowl of civilizations dating back to the dawn of civilization 4,000 years ago of course makes it a rich country in terms of customs, archaeology, battlefields, history and so on. The fact that it has a people who are poor but proud and decent and hardworking, makes it that much rewarding to stay in touch with Pakistan and do what you can to help out.

Thus, I dont see anything confusing or contradictory in the rich history of Pakistan. I think it is something to enjoy and appreciate, while keeping in mind that ultimately all that really matters is maintaining certain basic, universally accepted values. Hope you agree.

#60 by tahmed32

I am going to refrain from recommending ideal treatment for Jay at Chowk, if I did I could be up for a ban.

You know, your comment regarding recommended therapy reminded of this picture someone sent me sometime ago, where this guy`s sack was nailed to the board and the look on this guy`s face said it all.

This sounds good while he seeks professional help.

Tahmed,
What is Pakistani culture anyway? Is it muslim culture? or is it Indian (Hindu) culture, since there was no such thing as Pakistan about 50 years ago. Is it Persian culture or Arab culture? Since we are a mix of these groups of people. Does Pakistani culture have any distinct features unique to Pakistan. You seem to be quite well read about these issues. I once asked my Dad about this but he could not define it. He said that we are actually Indians (not Persian or Arabs) who have focused themselves on Muslim idealogy. If we are really indians then why are we fighting with our neighbors like they are our lifelong enemies. At this time (I do not know before) there are many in our country who are more worse enemies of Pakistan than Indians!! So, are we fighting about land (kashmir) or are we fighting about idealogy (Muslim vs Hindu)? Having lived outside pakistan for more that half my life I do not know what the real issues are any more. Maybe you and the other smarter people on this forum can satisfy my anxiety. Am I the only one confused or are you guys also confused.

ferozk #50 Agreed that ``Peaceful transfers of power, and not elections, are bedrock of democracy. `` Actually, the fact is that in Pakistan all three military coups have been basically bloodless (although ZAB was hanged, even here Zia had to go through the motions of a judicial process where ZAB was charged with specific murder). This puts Pakistan a bit ahead of other countries where changes in government are often accompanied by widespread riots. The average Pakistani is also much more tolerant than is generally realized I think - in 1971 I remember Bengalis were openly celebrating their liberation in Rawalpindi and Islamabad, and there were no mob attacks or anything like that. Add to this the growing middle class, and I think the writing is on the wall - Pakistan provides fertile soil for democracy, and very poor soil for extremism. This is counter to conventional wisdom, I realize, in light of the jehadi lashkars spawned by Zia and tolerated for too long by musharaff - but nevertheless it is a fact.

This is the basic decency of the Pakistani people and the Pakistani culture that gives one confidence in the future of Pakistan.

pardaisi #51 You may be right in what you say. What treatment do you suggest for tripolar then? Extra-Strength Lithium, perhaps, with two pills taken after each electric shock treatment perhaps. What say you, doctor??

#40 tahmed

I do not really understand the relevance of the German and Japanese examples in the respect to the Middle East. Two points on that ground.

No Arab country as such has declared or have taken an aggressive war to the the western states. Both Japan and Germany did so. Most arab states are a client of the US, the problem with Saddam was the case of a valuable American Asset/dictator who became too ambitious for his boots and whose removal was aptly required for the mobilisation of the Imperialist agenda in the Middle East and to provide the comfort factor to Israel.

There is already evidence that the US is going to plan a strike or an invasion in Syria, this will in time be justified by whatever media brainwashing that goes on in the west. I strongly believe that resistance in Iraq will gain force and will become as potent as was the case in Afghanistan against the russians. I dont think that this saga will end in the Iraqis walking away with democracy tatoed on their foreheads and the Americans walking away with the oil. Signs are that something really terrible will eventually come out of this, a violent civil war and the ultimate heaven for the terrorist organisations. I recommend that your read ``Discourse on Colonialism By Aime Cesaire`` which talks about the occupied nations and the development of the resistance. I know that as individuals peace is all we desire, but we forget the intricate complexities of this world. The complexities are currently in play in Iraq, the kurd, sunni arabs ad shias and the occupiers all pushing for their vested interests. The devil is in the detail.

On Swords

I visit the London Museam of History from time to time, which contains a sword that was supposedly captured from Tipu Sultan, (recently moved to Windsor), and on seeing it, the blood of the repressed freedom Fighter in me starts boiling. On various occasions I have had some interesting chats with the curator about that particular sword and its maintainence. And as Kas points out, it is oiled from time to time. But again you are right too, it is sharpened normally when it is intended to be used. Unfortunately our swords like our teeth, our dikhanay kay aur and khanay kay aur.

Thanks, Tahmed.
I will certainly check the information and links you provided.
I will also ask around and do some own homework in this regard.

kas #53 I can tell you of three organizations right off:

1. DIL website: http://www.4dil.org/DIL/
I have attended a couple of their fund raisers in the east coast of the US, and it was attended by well educated professional types. One of their office bearer`s is a Pakistani doctor`s wife in California who I know is very dedicated since I recall her father in Islamabad telling me when I was there how she left by car to visit the various DIL schools the day after she landed in Pakistan. You can sponsor individual students, or entire schools (and they will let you take ``ownership`` of the school by naming it). THey are quite large and well organized.

2. MMBMT: I know the founder (a retired Colonel who lives in Islamabad), and he has dedicated himself to this despite his age. He is always eager to take Pakistani-Americans to visit his girls school, and has lots of stories to tell.

3. SOS Villages: This is the oldest organization I think (it is actually an international organization based in Europe), and I have known them since the late 1970`s. They specialize in orphanages.

4. Blindness: I forget the name (if you are interested I can find it), but this is a large organization focussed on blindness among the poor. They were started using inheritance left behind by a British gentleman (Costain, partner in the construction firm MLC) who had worked in Pakistan.

Yes, I have contributed to the above, and attended their functions and/or known the founders, as have my other brothers and sisters and most Pakistanis I know in our area. And there are many more in Pakistan (including the one started by the white American I mentioned in my previous post).

I fully agree with you on the need to see for yourself what work is being done. You will find the visit to be not only assuring, but also uplifting: I remember my visit to an SOS village near Rawalpindi, and was pleasantly surprised at how well organized and well maintained it was - with women acting as mothers for 7-8 orphans each. You will find such a visit to be very rewarding, I can assure you.

kas #53 and one more thing - dont go by the news. Only ``newsworthy`` items make it to the news (``dog wags tail`` is not news, ``man bites dog for wagging tail`` is news). Visit Pakistan (or any other place on earth) for yourself and your faith in humanity is restored. When in Pakistan, visit various places, do volunteer work if you can (my nephew volunteered for the ILO last year, and spent an entire summer visiting various ``sweatshops`` and convincing the business owners to finance part time schooling for teenagers working for them - and found that much more rewarding than doing compulsory one year duty with the German military which was his other option). You wont be sorry, and you will have a completely different picture of Pakistan than if you watched cnn or read Dawn online.

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pardaisi #51
I donot have to be in Zia`s govt to provide quotes of Zia, I just have to read Benazir Bhutto interviewed by rediff.com. If you have a problem, take it up with BB, not me. I personally think she is falsely painting herself as opposing Zia`s `legacy` policies, instead of admitting that she too supported them while she was in office.

RE: #49 by tahmed32

You sound like my Dad, Tahmed. I agree with you and I was just expressing my frustrations. I was very young when I left Karachi, Pakistan, where I was born. But I have visited there from time to time. I still do on business. The visits were not always memorable but I enjoyed my outings with relatives and family friends.
I realize that I should be proud of Pakistan but what I see and hear in the news is opppsite to what you are saying. Everyday there are jihadi events happening which is giving our country a bad name. This is why I am sometimes ashamed to be called a Paki.
Also, can you give me the website for DIL, MBBMT and those organization that should be supported. I never heard of them before. I hear you, sir, but I am afraid that they are either madrassas in disguise or are run by people who just want to pocket the money for personal gain. I would rather visit these groups on my next vist to Pakistan and see for my self what is happenin there.
I know I have not been truly patriotic but these might be good organization to support. btw, do you support any of these organizations? Have you seen their work. I do not want to support courupt organizations or people.
I also need to get out of my current profession. I am torn by the pros and cons of it. Although I do enjoy the perks, it is not something to be proud of. My Mom woild just about die if she knew what I did for a living. But it brings me good money.

About the sword, I do know a bit about them. My uncle has two swords that he brought back from Pakistan. He says they are from the Mogul Period and were owned by some general (some Jahangir guy). Anyway he oils them lightly for storage purposes. He said that they are like guns and need frequent oilings.

the largest ARSENEL of Nuclear Weapon is In USA..

GW Bush`s Family has been and IS involved in OIL and Milatary Hardware trade..


USA is the Only Country who has actually Used these Nuclear WMD on human beings


I Fail to Understad....why isn`t IAEA allowed to Inspect their nuclear Programs

or for that matter Israel`s Or British.

yet create a Lot of HOOO HAA on the nuclear capabilities of Other Countries.


............I am not arguing Nuclear capability is Good Or Bad.... just this double standard

is beyond my comprehension.

#48 by tahmed32

Actually, Jay is on experimental drugs not lithium...because lithium is for bipolars, he is manic depressive with obsessive compulsive behaviour towards Pakistan (one of a kind tripolar, is the term exist).

#45 by sadna

Sadna ho(please do not read between the lines...... I mean to say dont be sad Sadna), what position you held in Pakistan govt. when Zia was in power ?

re: tahmed32

I also hope that it is not a flash in the pan.

I realize that political reality in Pakistan is deeply flawed and we have a system of government, which is far from perfect. I realize that there is a sense of disagreement on the course we have embarked upon for ourselves and I know there are voices, who are highly critical of what has happened in Pakistan in name of democracy and parliamentary goverance.

Despite all the faults of the present political system in Pakistan; despite the fact that it can be considered as the handmaiden of the military and despite the fact, that its creation was a disappointment to all those who have yearned for freedom of a democracy in Pakistan, I hope that it will live to see the fulfillment of its term of office. Right now, in Pakistan, the question is not to debate the worth of a military involved in politics or to decry the corrupt nature of the politicans, but to determine that elections will be held, once again, in 2007. No matter how ill advised this system/parliament is, it should be allowed to run its course and if takes a series of compromises with the devil to keep this parliament in office, then each such Faustian bargain must be made.

Democracy thrives when it is not engineered and democracy is the evolution of a political process and not imposition of a political ideal. This time in Pakistan, democracy must be allowed to evolve and as I have said in the past; democracy is the right to make the wrong choice, but having the choice to correct a past wrong. Even if this parliament does nothing for Pakistan and is thought of as a waste, it should not be disbanded. Pakistan needs the process of democracy to evolve naturally and this evolution must be according to the needs of Pakistan itself and not according to the whim of pre-set notions of democracy - domestic or foreign. Westminister system of parliamentary democracy or the presidential system of democracy is not as important as establishing a process of democracy in Pakistan, which ensures a peaceful transition of power in Pakistani politics. Peaceful transfers of power, and not elections, are bedrock of democracy.

Ciao

P.S.: Thanks for the concern, and I return the question to you, hoping for a similar answer.

kas #41 While not an expert on swords, I am an expert on chopping vegetables with a kitchen knife. And I would rather have a sharp knife than an oily one. :-)

Incidentally, I agree with your post #37. You will be surprised at how eager people are for educating their children even in the remotest regions of Pakistan. While I agree that having been born (?) and certainly raised in the US, you should identify yourself as an American first - this being based on the principle that one should first identify with the community one lives in first. However, I hope you will never forget the less fortunate millions in Pakistan. One important way in which you can contribute is to institutions like Development in Literacy (DIL) that run village schools for the poor in Pakistan. While madrassahs are much in the news, the fact is that there are far more schools for the poor that are run by dedicated people in Pakistan. In addition to DIL, there is MBBMT which has opened over 60 schools for girls only in the remotest parts of Mianwali. There are also a large number of schools run in the northern areas, one of them by an (Anglo-Saxon) American gentleman which has been reported upon twice in the US on Parade magazine. An old lady in the US was so touched by that article that on her deathbed she left all her estate (several hundred thousand dollars) for that NGO along with a message for the ``dear girls, study hard and make something of yourself``.

So, Pakistan is by the Grace of God in good hands, and it has no shortage of well-wishers around the world. Do not lose heart because of the mess created by the military and maulvis, and be proud of the fine people of Pakistan and the great heritage that you bring with you to the US. And do what you can to help the poor people of Pakistan join the ranks of the prosperous people of the world.

jay #47 This is your pyschiatrist. It is time to get a refill on your lithium. If you do not re-start taking your medicine, we will be forced to send men in white coats after you.

why the fuss,

The world is so excited about khan and the islamic bomb. One khan selling the secrets is only a symptom of a deeper reality of pakistan as a failed state. The ISI is running their own operations. The feudal lords have their own armies, their own prisons and their own justice. The NWFP is beyond the reach of islamabad. The tahmeds assert that the tribal kill their women and no one can stop it.
Pakistan was a failed state, now it is an unviable state

Interview with benazir,

There is an interview with benazir where she asserts that it was the grand plan of zia to make the islamic bomb and give it to all the muslim countries to defeat america and bring about the glory of islam through a kalifayet.
So the khans actions are part of the creation of pakistan to defeat the other for once and for all so that TNT is no more valid, there is no other nation.

sadna #17
``professedly the grandiose national vision``

OK, apparently the vision was even more grandiose :

http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/08inter.htm

`` What is now known is that after defeating the Soviet Union, Zia wanted to defeat America. Everyone in Pakistan used to say, `Amrika nay ek kutta pala, Zia-ul Haq uska nala.` They used to say this and what people don`t realise is that in Pakistan at the mass level Zia was so abused that it was all for the nuclear programme, this was because he was an American dog. They used to call him `Amrika ka kutta`, they never called him by his actual name.

He tried to tell everybody that he was not doing it for America, but for Islam and after defeating the Soviet Union he was going to defeat America and make Islam the greatest power in the world.

So somewhere after 1987, according to press reports, he offered this to Iran...``

Naqshbandi, 14

re: shias stabbing sunnis in back:

When Mongols were running amok in Persia, Sunnis didn`t lift a finger to help Shias. Short time later, Sunnis were dealt mortal blow by same hordes. So it works both ways. Grow up, and learn from history.

Also keep in mind, we Sunnis have control over all oil even though a lot of oil is in lands that are majority Shia.

I personally would sooner `convert` and become a Shia (an unusual one, mind you, who respects all Companions) than side with outsiders against them. Perhaps Ayatollah has something up his sleve, perhaps Shias in general understand that there is EASY way to get what they want rather than tackle US head-on. We sunnis have failed miserably, and if Shias can prosper where we fail, it`s best to make up with them and help.

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Naqshbandi (and Urstruly)#14: ``throughout history shias (iran) have stabbed sunnis in the back when it has suited them ...
the only country we should exchange such weapons with is the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries... ``

This is an interesting comment.

Iran has definitely stabbed Pakistan in the back, in the nuclear scandal. But is it really because Iran is a Shia country? I have always had difficulty understanding such arguments. The same Shia Iran has traditionally been one of the few countries that stood my Pakistan, during wars. And Pakistanis get better treatement in Shia Iran than in Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries (whose people treat Pakistanis like filth).

But let me try to argue it, within the boundaries of your frame of reference.

Both you and Urstruly have indicated that you would prefer Pakistan to be under Shariah of some sort. While I don`t doubt both of yours` patriotism and genuine dedication to Islam, I do think both of you are misguided and misinformed on Islam - specifically on this issue of Shariah. May Allah Subhan Ta`ala, someday, show the correct path to you in Islam. And take you off your current misguided path. Amen (I say this with all sincerity, since I have a fear, that on your current one-sided track, one day, a switch will flip and you will go to the other extreme and start hating Islam - much like SameerJB and hamidm).

Shariah is an absolutist form of law. It only allows for interpretation, but not for amendments. I personally oppose Shariah, since I don`t think any two Muslims can agree on any one interpretation of Shariah. Hence it is a recipe for disaster, even in its best of forms.

According to your interpretation of Shariah, what is the status of Shias? From your comment above, it seems like you consider them backstabbers. Not for any practical reason, but just for being Shia. Where exactly does that place the 15-30% of the population of Pakistan that is Shia? What about the various war heroes and shaheeds of Pakistan who were Shia? What about one of the most popular political leaders the country has ever had (Z. Bhutto), who was a Shia? And what about the founder of the country itself, Jinnah, who was a Shia? What are their statuses, under Shariah, in your opinion?

But, an even deeper debate emerges: Both you and Urstruly are like-minded on the status of Ahmedis, i.e. until they declare themselves to be non-Muslims, you don`t want them to have any anything to do with the govt. of Pakistan. But what about Shias, again. Urstruly seems to see them as an inherent part of Pakistan`s Shariah system, and wants them and Sunnis to join together, while keeping their own sects (if I understand him correctly). You consider them to be backstabbers. He is pro-Shia, while you are anti-Shia.

If both you and Urstruly had your wishes granted, and ended up on the Shariah council of Pakistan, we can see what you would do to Ahmedis. But what in the world would you do to Shias? How would both of you agree on the same Shariah for Shias? And if you couldn`t agree, then how can we say, there exists one interpretation of the Shariah?

Janab Tahmed32,
It just so happens that Swords can be oiled lightly. I was told that many swords in the museum are lightly oiled to prevent rusting. Of course it is best to keep the sword in its scabbard.

wajahat (to continue where I left off on my post #36): On the areas where we differ, I had said one was different perceptions of US presence in Iraq.

The reason I believe that the US presence in Iraq is benign (and arguably the best thing that has happened in the middle east since God invented falafil) is already before us: It has moved that society a step towards democracy. That step has already happened. If the Iraqis were smart like the Japanese and the Germans they would do what the Japanese and the Germans did after WWII: welcome US presence there (a half century later, US troops are still based in Japan and Germany, and (being smart) no one is complaining in Japan or Germany. The US (being smart) sees this to fit well with its strategic interests as well, and so everybody is happy. (``mian beewee razi, kya karay ga qazi``)

If the Iraqis lose this great opportunity to join the ranks of the world`s developed countries, they will have only the primitive nature of their own society to blame. It is this primitive nature where family and tribal ties are more important than abstract concepts upon which civilized societies are based, like the concept of the rule of law.


PS: By the way, you dont oil your sword - you sharpen it. And as such, and knowing your style of writing, I expect a sharp (but honest) response from you, not an slick and oily one as is the case with some posters on chowk. :-)

ferozk #33 I fully agree with you that the MMA compromise with Musharraf was indeed in the spirit of democracy. This was truly a step in the right direction for Pakistan politics. What would be interesting to see is whether it was a flash in the pan or something more lasting.

Good to hear from you, and hope you are keeping well.

Pakistan, does not need a neculear revolution. It needs a revolution of education and humanity. If we put all the effort that we have so far put terrorrism, and divert that to education and improving our economics we would be a gulistan that may of us have dreamed off in our reverrie. This is what pisses me off about our rulers. They live in the the 17th century. Janab, there is no point reliving old glories. We have to make new glories through educational and economic development. We should not be prown of copying 25 year old neuclear technology. We need to be proud of our youth and encourage them to attain more noble goals. This jihadi culture is killing our country and shooing away any of us who would ever want to go back to Pakistan. Face it... we pakis have become the laughing stock of the world. We always like to compare ourselves to india, but we never make a serious attempt to do so. All we do is do terrorrism and make our never ending claim on Kashmir. As far as I am concerned, the hell with Kashmir!! What has fighting over kashmir got us. It has drained us of our reason because it has filled us with hatered towards indians. This is why I am critical towards those Pakis who never cesase to beat the neuclear drum.
For me, I`d rather try to develop solar and wind energies. Anyway, I get frustrated everytime I read about the muslim bomb. This is all BS and I pary that it will end soon.

This article does Xerox Khan a terrible injustice, due no doubt to petty personal jealousy. There is no good reason why possession of the Ultimate Weapon should be solely reserved for the Masters of the Universe, for the Great and the Good, or for large stable democracies. Thanks to Xerox’s heroic efforts, your average bemedalled tinpot military dictator or petro-dollar funded jihadic crazy can wield his own bums for a very nominal sum of money. Taken to its logical conclusion, bums and the technical infrastructure for making them will become commodities like pork bellies and DRAM, subject to market forces, futures trading, etc.; and like stereo equipment, sports cars and AK-47s they will be backed by a thriving industry at every scale specializing in customization, modification, hot-rodding, fusion-boosting, cobalt-salting and the like, to suit the end-user’s particular need or fancy. A bum in every garage can only bode well for the destiny of mankind.

Xerox Khan is the Linus Torvalds of the world of nuclear proliferation. That is to say, his true genius is not technical but organizational; it lay in setting up a far-flung decentralized international network for the production of the components of a nuclear weapons program. Thus for instance low-tech Pakistan’s inability to machine centrifuge components to the required tolerances proved no obstacle when Malaysians could readily step into the breach.

A prophet is rarely honoured in his own time. Like that other wronged Pakistani genius Agha Hassan Abedi of BCCI, the radical novelty of Xerox Khan’s approach has not yet been adequately recognized. It may remain for an impartial future history of our times to evaluate the true significance of his Xerox Khan’s achievements in the commoditization of nuclear weapons infrastructure.

And finally, Pakistanis have little reason to fear any retribution for Xerox’s endeavours. If the sheriff of the global village shows up on your doorstep with his posse, you can invoke your Fifth Amendment Rights against self-incrimination, and your Second Amendment Right to Keep and Bear Arms. As a last resort, you can always claim that India made you do it. That should work like a charm.

wajahat #35 ``So Sir, oil up that sword, we might be crossing iron again. ``

Shamsheer tyar hai! Even better, the keyboard is ready The keyboard being mightier than the sword. ;-)

Actually, I think we do agree that Iraq is better off today then it was an year ago under Saddam. And I think we both agree (as indeed do all well-meaning individuals) on the need for peace in Iraq.

Where we seem to have different perceptions is the future and different levels of comfort with US presence in Iraq. So, en garde sir, and be prepared for a response on these issues to which I shall return in due course. (I must hastily leave now to meet someone),

#30 tahmed

I am forever humbled by the expression of optimism that you portray through your posts and give you due credit for it. You spoke about the signing of the iraqi constitution, a milestone indeed. It happened at the most senior levels and partly would appear to pave the way of Iraqi self Determination albiet the 500 washington policy makers who will ``help`` iraq run its govt and the ``100000`` US soldiers for any contingency.

Now this was the Imperialist plan and is working out as they say in the South of US ``Mighty Fine`` for the Occupiers. However something really scary happened which is totally missing from your post, the horrific suicide bombings in Kerbala. Will the (Terrorists, Al Qaeda, Foreign Remananats, Dead Enders) as the rumsfieldian vocabulary will put it, go to such a bloody extent to ensue a Civil War. Already there is huge problems in the fact that Kurds want Tikrit, which is been a Sunni Stronghold and Shias are in the process of determining sides (read the daily Anti-American Rhetoric by the ``Supreme`` Shia leaders). In Kerbala after the suicide bombing the crowds would attack american convoys and western journalists.

My Point dear sir, is that there is a fundamental problem with this picture which no matter how unclear it might appear from a Western Media Perspective, the People if Iraq are going through. From my point of view all I wish to see in Iraq today is peace, and enough blood has been shed for my type of semi-fundoos to except the occupation as the final will of god, yet the people in Iraq might just have different Ideas and all the evidence suggests so. So Sir, oil up that sword, we might be crossing iron again.

Kind Regards

Syed Wajahat Ali

It is as if we live in a world were the punishment for the crime of theft is death for the perpetrator, and his whole family. There is a thief in Pakistan`s midst, and in a fit of self-righteousness Mr. Hoodboy is crying fowl and raising a ruckus - regardless of the consequences for him or his family.

That Mr. Hoodboy is doing the `right` or `moral` thing should be weighed against the possible backlash from his `testimony` from powers who don`t recognize justice, but only their own interests. Sometimes, staying silent is the right thing to do...

re: tahmed32

I agree with you that political compromise is the heart of a democratic tradition and more so, a sign of political tolerance.

Just one point of clarification to your post. Iraq was not the first nation to achieve this feat. Pakistan accomplished this in December 2003, when the government and MMA agreed to a compromise on the LFO. Just like the Iraqis, the government in Pakistan was not elected and the members of the parliament, were not voted to office but appointed. It is not the means, but the end which matters in the final analysis.

What do you do, when the devil tempts you to do good?

Ciao

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wajahat #28 I think time has shown that what I predicted (on which we once crossed swords) is coming true: I had supported the Iraq war since, regardless of everything else, I had said it would result in the removal of an evil dictator (Saddam), and (given the past record of the US in introducing democracies in places it occupied - Japan, Germany) it most likely would introduce democracy for the first time ever in Iraq as well.

So, Saddam has been removed (and is going to be brought to trial for his cruel deeds in due course), and today the Iraqis did something unheard of in that country - they achieved a political compromise and signed their new constitution into law.

Of course they hypocrites of the muslim world will detract from this great step forward from their animal pat for the Iraqis by claiming that the signers were not elected via one man one vote. The truth nevertheless is that the signers represent the broad segments of Iraqi society - and the concept of political compromise (an alien concept to the cretins of the muslim world, but which lies at the heart of a democratic society) has been implemented in Iraq.

As for those nukes - only the cretins of the muslim world and of India think that copying 60 year old technology is a great achievement.

Here starteth the Prophecy

On the Second Day, there was the Pressed Conference, wherein spoke the King. The tasks of aggrandisement were completed, the great foresight of the ruler explained, the Heroic Father of the Bomb diminished forever, the nation asked to forgive and forget, and forgiveth and forgeth, the nation did, simply because there was no other choice.

On the third day, the people forgot, bigger problems appeared on our horizon, it appeared that the Chicken population had a flu, could it be a cover up, all those chicken tikkas and Chicken Biryanis stopped. The nation could not forgive and Forget. But it had no choice, and cows could be seen all over the country crying thick tears as the nearby chicken were seen chuckling to their end.

On the Fourth Day, the nation sleeps. The Bombs are locked up, the King Moves to Isloo. And the Imperialist forces too busy (Iraq, Afghanistan(for those afghanis who still havent got a Pakistani passport), Haiti etc) to worry about the small problem of Nuclear Proliferation by a client state that fullfill its current needs.

Therein lives the ghost of the Nuclear Future. In time the Neo Cons will find time to disarm the only Muslim Nation with a Full on Nuclear Program(read kerry on Pakistan). There will be debate, harsh words and then Preemption.

Here endeth the prophecy

Naqsh #22 Ha! Ha! The ManWorshipper dares to speak!!

From Dawn (Karachi) Monday March 8, 2004


Proliferation in perspective

By Mansoor Alam


The strong reaction caused in Pakistan to the news that Dr Qadeer and some other of our nuclear scientists were under investigation on suspicion of exporting nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea for personal gains was natural.

After all Pakistan`s nuclear programme unlike those of India and Israel was not for hegemonic purposes but to protect its territorial integrity and national independence against a powerful enemy.

The ``peaceful nuclear explosion`` conducted by India in 1974 had happened too soon after its military intervention in East Pakistan and was seen by the Pakistanis as a message either to submit to its domination or face the consequences.

It was, therefore, not surprising that the entire Pakistani nation stood solidly behind Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto`s declaration that we would have the bomb even if it meant eating grass.

Consequently, when Dr Qadeer succeeded in making the bomb in 1984, he became a hero for Pakistanis. Giving Pakistan nuclear capability in the teeth of international opposition led by the US was no less than a miracle and in doing so he had provided to the nation a sense of security and national pride that it had lost in 1971. This made him a figure larger than life. The people and the government put him on a high pedestal next only to the Quaid-i-Azam.

It was in this backdrop that the media broke the news that Dr Qadeer and some of our nuclear scientists and engineers were being interrogated on suspicion of having supplied nuclear technology to Iran, Libya and even North Korea. Pakistanis` first reaction was to reject it as false and US instigated with the ulterior motive to dismantle our nuclear programme, an old US objective.

Dr Kissinger had warned Mr. Bhutto that the US would make a horrible example of Pakistan if it tried to acquire the nuclear weapons. Subsequently, when Pakistan acquired the nuclear capability, the US Congress passed Pakistan specific Symington and Pressler laws for immediate application of sanctions in case Pakistan made the bomb.

During the war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan the US looked the other way and refrained from applying these laws, but President Bush senior did so as soon as the Soviet troops had left Afghanistan. Once again, as in 1965, the Pakistanis thought that the US was a selfish and unreliable ally.

Not only that, the US had also created a general impression among the Muslims all over the world that besides its perennial anti-Palestinian attitude and lack of sympathy for other issues of concern to the Muslims such as Kashmir, it did not want any Islamic country to acquire nuclear capability, the so-called ``Islamic Bomb``.

On the other hand, it had helped Israel in making the bomb and supported Israel`s blatant attack on the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, which was then given highly adulatory coverage by the US media.

Most Muslims saw these as another evidence of US double standard and hostility towards Islam itself. The US attack on Iraq on ``sexed up`` WMD charges transformed their belief into conviction that the US agenda was to subjugate the Muslim world, appropriate its natural resources and perpetuate the Israeli hegemony in the region.

The revelation about Dr Qadeer, therefore, created strong suspicion among the Pakistanis that it was a US engineered plot to finish the Pakistani bomb. President Musharraf`s political opponents, particularly the supporters of the Taliban, for political reasons or out of respect for Dr Qadeer, spread the feeling that he had succumbed to American pressure.

The nation itself could not believe that Dr Qadeer had proliferated without the knowledge and approval of the generals who seem to have been in full control over KRL. Their natural conclusion was that President Musharraf was trying to protect his fellow generals.

Public support for Dr Qadeer was so strong that even when he admitted his guilt on the TV, Pakistanis thought that he had done so under duress or as an act of supreme sacrifice to save the country.

It never occurred to them that Dr Qadeer was human and could have used the same secret network he had established for Pakistan to supply the technology to others for personal gains. And even if Pakistan was involved, they should have kept quite out of respect for Dr Qadeer rather than place the country in a difficult situation.

It also did not occur to them that Dr Qadeer was a greater hero to the armed forces of Pakistan than ordinary Pakistanis because he had given to them a capability that had neutralized the Indian military superiority over them.

Therefore, President Musharraf could not have touched Dr Qadeer without the risk of a mutiny if there was not enough proof against him.

Nevertheless, a strong belief persists both at home and abroad that he could not have proliferated without the knowledge, if not the approval, of the generals. The allegations made against an ex-army chief in this respect by former US officials and a former member of Mr. Nawaz Sharif`s kitchen cabinet has only strengthened the suspicion against them despite the denial by the COAS concerned.

Under the circumstances it would have been better for the country and the army if President Musharraf had constituted an independent rather than an in-house enquiry, albeit in camera, led by a senior judge to remove all doubts about the involvement of armed forces personnel and to fix the responsibility for such a major security lapse.

It is still not too late to do that to clear the clouds of suspicion hanging over the generals and the president himself that he was protecting them. All democratic countries follow this course in matters of grave national concern as manifested by the Hutton enquiry in the death of Dr Kelly in the UK and the congressional enquiry now instituted by President Bush on the failure of the US intelligence in regard to the presence of the WMDs in Iraq.

Internationally serious questions are being raised about our ability to check proliferation. The American media thinks that the saga of Dr Qadeer is nothing but an attempt to cover up and proves ``Washington`s worst nightmare of nuclear weapons passing to the rogue states`` through Pakistan.

Many well-informed Pakistani columnists believe that it would be naive on our part to think that by putting all the blame on Dr Qadeer we could escape the day of reckoning.

We had handed over a ``loaded revolver to Washington which can be used against us at any time of their choosing``. We could now be declared an international pariah and might soon have to face the choice of either opening our nuclear facilities to intrusive inspection or face Iraq-like sanctions.

Although the US has been most vocal on the issue of proliferation the fact is that all other major powers, including China, share this concern. As stated by the French Foreign Minister during his recent visit to Islamabad, France and its partners want Pakistan to strengthen its nuclear export control, observe greater transparency of nuclear activities in close cooperation with the IAEA and participate in global non-proliferation within the framework of the UNSC resolution now being prepared.

All this indicates that Pakistan will have to create a watertight system of control over its nuclear facility or face the collective wrath of the international community. However the present lapse resulting from Dr Qadeer`s actions does not pose an unmanageable threat, as some analyst seem to think.

Firstly, the government has taken the right decision to question Dr Qadeer and others and admit that they had indulged in unauthorized proliferation. The Americans and the IAEA had too much proof obtained from Libya, Iran and other sources against them for a credible denial by us.

Secondly, it did the right thing in actively cooperating with the effort to dismantle the network within and outside Pakistan and assure the world that it had established a foolproof system of control.

Thirdly, individuals and enterprises mostly in the West were also involved and knew fully well what they were doing. However, governments of these countries are not being held responsible for their misdeeds.

Fourthly, since President Bush and Secretary Colin Powell have not accused Pakistan of proliferating officially and issued the requisite certification for the proposed grant of $700 million to Pakistan by Congress they cannot use the present episode to bring a charge later.

Nevertheless, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the Americans if it suits their interest in future may demand the dismantling of Pakistan`s nuclear capability, but they will have to use the doctrine of pre-emption and unilateral action rather than the present case of proliferation.

In that event our only protection will lie in the deterrence that Dr Qadeer has provided to the country. That is why Pakistanis regard him as a hero. Only if he had not done what he did, he would have not become a fallen hero, which is our deepest regret.

The writer is a former Ambassador.

E-mail: manalam@hotmail.com.

tahmed

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better a monkey or gorilla with honour, ghayrat and IMAN then a heretic like you...

#21 by hamidm2
//.......... i think gorillas with razors are more dangerous than monkeys ........... //

Of Course :) But then, who will tell the Gorilla?

According to reports - US was supposed to have traded uranium-related stuff to some 40+ other countries. And it was China who was the original proliferator - transferred some old nuke tech to Pakis back in 60`s or something. But nobody is pointing fingers at them. That`s the advantage of being a Gorilla, I guess.

So - if you are small guy then you shouldn`t play the big guys` game. If you do - you should know your place and step gingerly. If you found a razor - then keep it sheathed. You don`t go around flaunting it ..... you don`t threaten everybody around or pass copies of it to other lunatics. If you do - well, we now know what happens. You loose.

Pakistan lost the nukes. Good riddance.

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Prof. Hoodbhoy: Please stop writing articles on chowk. You are giving diarrhea to our local population of monkeys and gorillas. Poor Naqshbandi hasnt eaten in two days, he is so upset. And wait till our African howling monkey to show up...

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mohar,

.......... i think gorillas with razors are more dangerous than monkeys ...........

In fact, this is a well put together article.

But there are many take home questions at the end...
- Is there any character of the nation?
- Is it an occasional oversight or prevalent tradition to make heroes out of ordinary men in the one go and then declare them evil genius in the next one ?
- How are heroes even decalared heroes ?
- The last guy that I have heard of as an evil genuis was Bhutto. I still have not comprehended why was he both an evil as well as a genuis.
- I do not think that we should have any universities teaching sciences or technology to anyone. We should convert them into learning institutes, assisting the nation top down and bottom up, in building some character. That`s the need of the