Peaceful Strokes

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he he he,
some body told me the pakistanis did not mind losing becoz three members of the indian squad were ``their kind`.could u have worse losers in the world?unfortunately we have them as our neighbours!!!!

yogiraj # 194

Sorry for late response.

If you came to Karachi, you should have contacted me. Maybe we could have had a get togather of the local Chowkies. And then discussed all our eating habits in detail.

I agree. Feeding is important but not all too important. I enjoy discussions more. (but my wife is too feeding conscious. Actually she enjoys food and when visiting others, expects to be fed very well)

Ref 182 #

Amit,

A big correction in your post. Laxman is not a madrasi. He is a Gult and a Hyderabadi. Period.

-Avkrishna

#191 by nazarhayatkhan on March 25, 2004 10:12pm PT

Yogiraj # 189, Arjun_m # 188

Sirjee

You are honest. But.. But. Jay is more than honest. I think he shows his honest hatred. And rightfully

Three questions.

1. I ate with a family in Karachi. Do you eat together always that way? Not my style. I mean we sit together and eat but there is some.....
2. Why do you think feeding and feeding is only way host should satisfy a guest?
3. We do have differences. Why hide? Why not bring it open? At least it could be a good start.

I really enjoyed your style of hospitability. But you need to learn (from an idiot like me??). Gujjus are better. They know when to stop. Gracefully. Without putting the guest in a very awkward situation. You know (just fooling) we the orrible can`t eat anything without ing!!!.

Gosh. Karachi is just like Mumbai. Dirty. Overcrowded. But. But. Full of life. So much full of life.

Would have liked to meet that idiot YHL.

On the subject finally .. it was a good match though.

Yogiraj Patil

I was surprised to observe that the north-american audience was not as enthisiastic towards this series as the world-cup. This series was pretty much ignored by the women (this got to be lack of looks-talent in the Pakistani team). The world-cup saw enthusiastic parties with kids statiung up etc. Similarly, in India, during the world cup, many restaurants were sporting waiters/waitresses with blue teashirts. I wonder how things compared for this series relative to the recent world-cup in India. In Pakistan this series must have had more hoopla.

My final comment which was also my first.
The heads played bigger than the game.
Session closed

Yogiraj # 189, Arjun_m # 188

Let us get back to cricket. There are other boards for political discussions.

In the end, the India team played very well on the day and won. Congratulations. There are no excuses on this score.

Everyone enjoyed the series. Personally, I am a little surprised and happy the way Pakistanis took this defeat - in the most matter-of-fact manner. Unlike the last 20-30 years where they used to go into a despair or frustration in an emotional manner.

Maybe, finally, some maturity is coming.

Yogiraj #189,

What makes you so sure that Indians will not extend the same hospitality that Pakistanis did? Didn`t you hear Imran talk about how overwhelmed he was by the welcome shown by the crowds in India?

``#187 by nazarhayatkhan on March 24, 2004 9:38pm PT

Arjun_m # 183``

Bad news

It is not politics or military. It is mullas who ruled you, do and will. Go to Mecca and/or Madina and say this... I want my wife to have driver`s licen...

NHK. you may not want to hide this fact. But Romair and FV do know this and hide. And so does 123....And they will run away (or else Urs will... kick their..)

It is URS who rules. Accept it as a fact.

If Urs wants to kill non muslims... He will do it with pride. And he rules all over you with a book in his hand.

Some never liked Jay because he showed mirror ...every day. That Muslims in Pakistan have a problem...

You seem to be very decent person. But there is no where to hide.

FV will write on how Indoos are bad bad bad. Romair will run from USA to ...Canada, but never Saudi (because) Driver`s licen.. for a woman in Mecca or Medina... Can they? will your scriptures allow? 123? And for god`s sake if they will... will Urs allow it?

I hope you understand why BJP is there. It is because of asteen ki rudalee we rear. She blames us for all wrongs... and we pay her. More she wails, more we pay. More power to her. That is the going rate for rudalees.

Let her go and say how a woman enjoyed driving in Mecca all alone.. (I mean a muslim woman.. whatever the definition is). I bet Rudalee will duck like a ...And then host of commi indoos will defend her ``rights`` in Indoostan.

Well.. every one knows. Only Jay says it. May be Sameer or whatever the name is..

On a brighter side....

Much, much more important. Lots of Indoos know pakistan is not the snake`s teeth filled with poison. I was simply amazed by the decency, hospitability and love pakistan showed. I do not think Indoos won. (Not even cricket). I think the common woman/man on street in Pakistan won. Hands down. What a awesome hospitabilty.. gosh.. I promise you, you will never get same splendid treatment in India. Simply not possible. Do not even dream about it.

It wont last long any way. Give Urs a day and all the ( he / she) dogs will let their tails... May be timetable is wrong. Give Urs a month.

Must admit, as of now you have won so far.

Yogiraj Patil

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Arjun_m # 183

(It`s logical to the extent that if you really really must have Kashmir and you are the country trying to change the status quo, you won`t do anything that you think would maintain it....)

Let the politicians fight & go crazy. Who cares. A common man is fed up of being dictated by them. When they want, they make nice on-the-house trips to other country. Only a common man can not. It is not fair. With a soft border concept, Kashmir will lose its sting as a problem. Incidently, there are a number of solutions which are a win-win for everyone.

nazar...tourism in india is very hot right now. middle-class folks are taking 2 vacations a year and willing to pay approx Indian Rs 1000 ppdo. If tours in pakistan can compete for these rates..surely this can easily be done. Heavy demand exists. Here is an example of a tour operator almost exclusively catering to middle-class.

http://www.kesaritours.com/Kerala_BackwaterCS.htm#dtpr

Everything went according to plan. Pak won the toss and, just to be sure they`d lose, chose to field and chase a big score. For a while it seemed as thogh Moin Khan & Shoaib Malik had either not seen the script or were getting carried away playing a normal game. Fortunately, the game concluded as it had been meant to.
Does anyone want to take a guess on who`s supposed to win the test matches?

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I like Inzi the aaloo.. he sould be on the indian team being a veg and all. Other than that, everything else went according to the plan, including inzi looking like a deer in headlights when he won the toss...definately a bania conspiracy to lose the toss. The game was lost by Pakistani team because the Indians methodically exploited the weak spots. Pakistan had the killer chucking at its disposal, but the Indians had designed answers for the specific eventualities.. they knew that Soahib after 4 overs is a dud. Now to the long test-series.. the good news, is Ganguly may not play. Strangely, a moth-eaten end to the series.

Now I dont want to gloat or anything but did I not say it was a huge mistake to bad mouth Pathan and Laxman?

See what happens??

Congrats to the Indian team for a tremendous victory. I wonder how hamidm is feeling today seeing madrasis (laxman, balaji) team up with a pathan to deliver this result !!
Congrats to the Pak team as well for an excellent series and particularly, congrats to the Pakistani people for being such gracious hosts.

The humanising factor
By: Amit Varma
March 24, 2004

Is it sport or is it war? Whenever India and Pakistan play each other in cricket, the media talks of the game as a metaphor for war – and perversely, with a sense of glee and anticipation. (A random example: MJ Akbar, writing in Time magazine, described this India-Pakistan series as ``a war guaranteed to drive millions of people delirious``. War and delirious?) Leave aside the moralistic angle of how we trivialise something as serious as war by comparing it with a mere sport; the fact is, the feelings that India-Pakistan cricket inspires are extreme, and sentiments like pride and honour are affected by victory or defeat, much as they would be in a war.
Sport between these two countries has always been played with nationalistic fervour – and even fear. Many of the early Tests between India and Pakistan were drawn, with both teams showing an excess of caution, petrified of losing to their neighbour. A loss against any other team didn`t matter – both teams were habitual losers until the seventies – but a defeat to their neighbour rankled deeply. Abbas Ali Baig`s promising career is said to have been derailed because of an average run of scores against Pakistan, when a similar streak against any other side would not have mattered. Javed Miandad`s last-ball six off Chetan Sharma still rankles in the Indian psyche as a low point for the nation. World Cup after World Cup, Indians treated their game against Pakistan with as much importance as the tournament itself, not caring if they lost the Cup, as long as they beat Pakistan. When Pakistan lost the 1996 World Cup match in Bangalore, the house of their great hero, Wasim Akram, was stoned.
Sport has always been described it terms of war. Games are often described as ``battles``, and teams are often said to have been ``routed``, ``slaughtered``, ``demolished``, in a vocabulary of alpha-male aggression. ``Sport is an unfailing cause of ill-will,`` George Orwell once said. In an essay written in 1945, at the tail end of a real war, he elaborated:

``I am always amazed when I hear people saying that sport creates goodwill between the nations, and that if only the common peoples of the world could meet one another at football or cricket, they would have no inclination to meet on the battlefield. Even if one didn`t know from concrete examples (the 1936 Olympic Games, for instance) that international sporting contests lead to orgies of hatred, one could deduce it from general principles.``

The point Orwell went on to make was that all sport was competitive, and involved winning or losing, and thus pride. A sport between nations, thus, took on bigger proportions, as it involved national pride – much as war would. He called it ``mimic warfare``. But having said that, while many other bi-national rivalries exist in sport – the Ashes in cricket, Brazil-Argentina in soccer et al – none are quite so fierce and filled with ``ill-will`` as that between India and Pakistan.
So should India play Pakistan in cricket as long as emotions in the countries run so high? Much of the recent impasses between the two countries have been due to political posturing. If we leave politics aside for a moment, and I accept that we can never entirely do that, there are still good reasons for and against India-Pakistan cricket. I am agnostic on that issue: I have an argument on each side of the subject, and I am undecided which has more merit. Let me lay them both out here.

Zero-sum game in a non-zero-sum world:
Orwell`s case that sport between nations is like war has backing in terms of both evolutionary psychology and game theory, fields which had yet to take off in his lifetime. Sport and war are both, as the terminology goes, zero-sum games. If two parties are involved, then for one to gain something, the other must lose. Both cannot gain from the encounter, just as both India and Pakistan cannot win the same match. To gain something, one must defeat – and thus, humiliate, as national pride is involved – the other.
But the military and sporting paradigms do not reflect how civilisation, and societies, evolve. Economic and social progress, to use the phrase coined by Robert Wright, are a ``non-zero-sum game``. If two parties interact, both stand to benefit if they co-operate with each other, and it is, in fact, for our own benefit that we should help the other. (As Adam Smith famously put it, ``It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their self-interest.``) The basis of modern capitalism – and its success, compared to socialist and communitarian systems – lies is recognising the non-zero-sumness of progress.
Sport and war, thus, function on a different paradigm than society does. India and Pakistan, in virtually every sphere – economic, social, cultural – stand to gain from interaction and co-operation with each other. But sport emphasises zero-sumness – that one can gain only at the expense of the other, which is a regressive notion.
More than just mimic warfare
If the twentieth century was one in which international sport flourished, it was also one in which, sadly, war took on new proportions. Warfare has been a recurring feature in human history, but in the twentieth century it was played out on an astonishingly large scale. Vast amounts of cruelty – from the gulags to the Final Solution to the atrocities in China and Cambodia and Yugoslavia and Rwanda, among countless others, including what continues today in West Africa – were accompanied by vast amounts of indifference, as masses of people stood by and did nothing to protest against the most inhuman behaviour. Why were they so silent?
Jonathan Glover, a philosopher, raised just this question in his book, Humanity: A Moral History of the 20th Century. Glover postulated that the cause of the indifference was the ``degradation`` of the victims: their status or cleanliness, or both, was taken away, and they were thus stripped of their personhood. In Nazi Germany, herding the Jews into ghettoes, and making them wear the Star of David for identification, was just such a method of dehumanising them. Making racial jokes, dressing up a group of people in humiliating outfits – like prison garb – serves the same purpose. And so did ancient India`s caste system, where the Sudra caste was effectively reduced to the status of non-human by virtue of being treated as dirty and untouchable.
For Indians and Pakistanis, the people of the other nationality have been dehumanised thus, through decades of mutual distrust and nationalistic propaganda. (Some of it has come from popular cinema; witness the mindless stereotyping of Pakistanis done in the monster hit, Gadar, and a legion of similar films.) But the switch from ``person`` to ``non-person`` can be thrown both ways, as in that famous example of a soldier who sees a fleeing opponent holding up his trousers while running, a sign of humanity that flips the mental switch from ``fascist`` to ``person``. This is why intellectuals in both India and Pakistan stress the importance of people-to-people contact, so that the other can be seen as human again, and one can feel empathy with them.
Sport can play a part in this process. The more we see of our opponents, the more we are exposed to their humanness, and the less the mythic differences seem. The cricketing skills on display, the emotions on the field, all draw us towards the other side – and the appreciation can sometimes go beyond national pride. The spontaneous applause that the Pakistan team got from the Chennai crowds after they won the enthralling Test there in 1999 is a great example of that.
Exposure to cricketers and ex-cricketers from the other country also helps us feel warmer towards them. Witness Sunil Gavaskar`s popularity in Pakistan, which goes beyond his 1992 prediction that Pakistan would win the World Cup that year. Imran Khan and Zaheer Abbas have enjoyed similar popularity in India, and Wasim Akram and Ravi Shastri, in `The Shaz and Waz Show`, the popular TV program that ran during the India-Australia series, are a perfect example of a Pakistani and an Indian working together to mutual benefit, in a non-zero-sum interaction. If cricket can be played between the two countries regularly, then perhaps it can move from being a metaphor for war to a vehicle of peace.

Bad Wednessday

Hazy. Moths. And the Indians taking good catches - congrats.

Only silver lining is making some money out of the Indian tourists - the only tourists willing to come - need to promote this ``nostalgia tourism``.

Similarly, India needs to open up its Visas to Pakistanis - costs much little to be a tourist in India. And no language, food problems.

Unfortunately Pakistan lost. Not a good result.

Congradulations India!

Re:#176
Ijaz, the comon man in Pakistan wants good relations with India. This is quite evident from the crowd behavior in Karachi, Rawalpindi, Peshawar and Lahore. Nobody asked all these people to be nice to Indians. It is coming from their heart. The brutality of partition happened because regular people did not want to live together. Today we are becoming friends because regular people want to be friends. The Pakistani elite and their corresponding counterparts in India are being dragged to the realization that the common man is fed up with confrontation and wants good, friendly relations. The negative elements will try their best to ruin this beautiful turn of events, but God willing, it will never go back to the way it was. As the saying goes - Muddai lakh bura chahey to kya hota hai, wohi hota hai jo manzoor-e-khuda hota hai

Tust to remind, here is my analysis again.

#11 by ijaz_gul on March 12, 2004 9:04am PT
I feel the major difference will be in the attitudes of the key players and foolhardy attitude of showmanship performers like Afridi, Shoaib and Nazir. These players will have to keep their heads smaller than the game to produce consistent performances.

The corridor of uncertainity will remain a real test with India using three left arm seamers. Just recollect how Nehra teased the Pakistani players in the World Cup.

Despite boasting slow wickets, our performance against spinners of late has been pathetic. Even a mediocre like Stuart McGill, knocked the hell out of us. At Karachi, our players made a demon out of Giles. Right now we boast no world class spin bowler. Saqlain is not in the right frame.

Shuffling before the wicket and moving on the backfoot to low balls will produce many a LBW decisions and the coach ought to be worried about it. Both Inzi and Yousaf will be vulnerable to both factors early in the innings.

Saqlain somehow has lost his rhythm. Bowling with success to mediocre county batsmen in England on a different line and lenght has reduced his effectiveness. He had perhaps needed dedicated coaching to unlearn the county cricket and rediscover his old form, but alas!.

Though Shoaib will remain lethal in patches and Sami comme ci comme ca, the most teasing ones will be Shabbir and Umer Gul. On home wickets, Razzaqs over pitched ball hit for a six in Australia can become deadly.

It is most dangerous that India has gone through the dip in the very first match. They will need seaming wickets to go down again. Ours are equally bad on that. So where are our strenghts? I am sure someone must have thought of it. I am not so sure.

bongdong, thats it!
Sponsors and friends` friends
By MA Niazi
Well, as I suspected, this One-Day Peace series between India and Pakistan is poised at 2-2. It had to. Apart from the fact that the teams seems quite evenly matched, it`s in the sponsors` interest. Look at it this way. If Pakistan had won this match, it would have won the series, and the final match would be what they`ve started calling a `dead match,` with no effect on the series, and with only pride at stake. So viewers wouldn`t have been attracted to the television, and advertisers would not be able to convince them to buy their stuff.
This series isn`t about cricket, or even diplomacy and politics. It`s about advertising. That`s why a South Korean company competed so hard with a Japanese to be sponsors. I mean, they don`t know anything at all about cricket in South Korea or Japan. They know football and hockey better. But catch them sponsoring either of those two much neglected games. Clearly, there`s no love of the game involved, just cold calculated greed.
So Pakistan lost the first match at the Gaddafi Stadium, not because the bookies had it fixed, but because the sponsors wanted it that way. Going by that, the last match should be an Indian win, because the sponsors are out there selling to the Indian middle class, which is about twice the size of Pakistan`s total population, and Pakistan`s middle class, in the national interest, which has been defined by the IMF and the World Bank, now hardly exists.
I didn`t go to the match, just as I haven`t done for years, because I don`t want to get into the whole parking and seating mess. About 20 years ago, I was quite a regular. In those days, a day`s play in the General Stand, on the bleachers, cost Rs 10, and you could get a five-day ticket for Rs 30. That was barely affordable, and it wasn`t much of a hassle. If you went a couple of days in advance of a Test, even if it was against the West Indies or Australia, you went up to this hole in the Stadium wall, and after a few minutes, someone would come and give you a ticket. There was usually a crowd on the day itself, but if you went early enough, you could get in quite easily, and take a seat at the midwicket boundary (from the College end). The College, by the way, is FC College, and it used to be a reasonably small walk from there, through the gap in the barbed wire fence near the Halls (as FC`s hostels are known). Obviously, we`d be bunking classes, but no pain, no gain, as they say.
The focus on cricket has cloaked two important events. First, the Indian invasion of Lahore, which has been on for a couple of months, and which is going to go on. Industry, trade, media, film, politicians: they`re all over here. In fact, the only Indian occupational group which hasn`t swarmed over the border is the Indian Army. I wonder what`s keeping them? The sort of welcome the other Indians have been getting should have guaranteed a warm welcome to the Indian soldiery, after all. I mean, have you seen the fraternal feeling between the Indian and Pakistani paramilitaries at Wagah? All you see is them exchanging baskets of sweets at the drop of a hat.
The second event also has to do with our brave paramilitary forces, but on the Western border. No, not their relations with the Afghan paramilitaries (who are actually US troops in disguise), but with their fellow citizens, the tribesmen of the North and South Waziristan Agencies. Them they are pounding with artillery and helicopter gunships. Barfi for Indians, bullets for Pakistanis. They`re guilty of hiding foreign terrorists. Well, if we can give the Indian BSF, who are terrorising the Kashmiri people, rasgullahs, why do Pakistani citizens who harbour foreign freedom fighters deserve rockets?
The key is that our friends are America`s friends: Afghan quislings are American friends, Indians terrorising Kashmiris are American friends, so they are our friends. And those who oppose them are our enemies. Fine. Let`s live with that, and get on with the important things in life. Like who`s going to win the last ODI. Does anything else matter?

Pakistani women cricket team playing with West Indians. Not many people even know about it?

Anyone who thinks that the extras are an indication of match fixing probably missed the stat line for those two games that we (pak) did win. We`re definitely gifting the Indian`s a 12th batsmen (extra`s) and the problem has plagued our team the whole series, win or lose.
I think people need to chill and enjoy (albeit for Pakis its frustrating at times) the great cricket instead of trying to discount the effort by the Indians and our homeboys.

impressions:

I had just read an article about the `Prince` and was sort of walking towards similar reasoning as the one you outlined, so thanks for elaborating :) I didn`t realise the extent of this mental pressure tactic, but you are right. And one thing is for sure that professionalism suits Indian team, no one likes to see (Sidhu`s) - Indians falling like Cycles on a Cycle stand.

Farzana:
Lahore game 1:
At one point the bowlers came too close for comfort. I mean Yuvraj Singh was also gone, and if they had taken just one more crucial wicket - Dravid - we were done for and out of the series. (Sometimes the others can pitch in and perform but you can`t count on it). I think that was what they were pushing for - but careful play on Dravid`s part (and I think luck that no wild ball came his way) kept us in the game. I think Dravid has this assured stance that might have come across to the Pakistani team and they may have given up - that`s what i see as the reason for the wide margin.

Second - I think bowlers tend to go after wickets - and disregard extras - at their own peril. We gave them 30 extras!

I think you may be right in one sense - both teams have been told to `play nice` so if they seem to be losing - they may resort to - `ok well all in the name of friendship/orders from above` - and not be out there wanting to devour one another.
I certainly don`t doubt the motivations BJP may have had.

jang:
`` In addition, Advani will be in the stands, to put more pressure from BJP (somehow). ``
If that`s all it takes - cricket crazy public will demand that the entire party go to the Australia matches.

A didnt know Farzana wrote for the Nation (under a ``nome de gurre`` of course)

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Mar-2004/22/national/lhr6.asp

Ferzi is really unhappy that hindi-pakis are getting bhai-bhai and bjp is actually gaining political milage out of this. If this goes on, soon pakis will stop saying mashallah-subhanallah to her articles. These are disturbing times.

Jang mian, your posts are hilarious. Thank you!

#166 jang
Haha. You left out the part about indians needing to be more self critical..

Brat:
It isn`t about ```letting the other team win```. There will be noteworthy performances, but both the times Pakistan got defeated we had 37/38 wides...and in the Lahore game not getting Shoaib Akhtar when it mattered...please...the goodwill has been pushed down their gullets. If Colin Powell knew anything about yorkers and mid-ons, we might have had an even more interesting game.

I tell you, one team will get ahead in the ODIs, the other in the test series...and something of a friendly duel will happen in Sharjah (it is for charity, so it is all right).

Individuals performing well will always be there, they cannot be so obvious about it, but since the cricketers are not campaigning they are providing the goodwill and filling certain coffers. Just wait and watch...

And for the rest, I bet my ass...

Inzi talking to Ramiz Raza after the match again said some stuff in Arabic .. i think he was blaming allah, or at least hoding him responsible. I think he is a real class player, and should be allowed to spank Akhtar with 10 lashes for every wide delivery.

Since Romair is ducking his usual post-match spin, i will attempt one...

Overall a good match. The momentum is now definatley with India since Pakistan tried their best weapons and failed inspite of that. Whereas, Indians have yet to get their weapons to fire, and they have evened the series. Zaheer is still bowling simple stuff so far, Irfan is a mohalla player, and Indians are happy enough with the results. Ganguly will make some real cool mental-game statements via Dravid (to sound more credible) which can mess-up minds. Akhtar is a good bowler (and chucker), but he has tried his best, and the way he was talking to himself, its clear that he will not be a major threat. Pakistani bowling even had damp evening conditions to assist them. Akhtar will get his two wickets, but will continue to give runs. Since he has already bowled his best, and Indians underrstand it, his performance can only get worse. So, for the final, Ganguly will win the toss since he has so far lost the toss, and he will bat first and Pakistani team will be tired agains Indian attack and the evening Mosquitos bugging them. In addition, Advani will be in the stands, to put more pressure from BJP (somehow). If Ganguly loses toss, Inzi will let them bat first, thinking that the wicket has a better bounce in the beginning,and he tried batting first already. In any case Ganguly will say that toss does not matter, which will put huge pressure on Inzi. Additiionaly, there will be a very big verbal fight between him an Akhtar, in which Sohail will say ``I am the stud and you are the spud``.

I am tired...

Farzana, Sridhar,

You guys are bunch of a$$. Kaif`s maginificeint catch with possible full speed head on collision with Badani and the one that could have paralyzed him for ever is not fixed. Sami and Akhtar are bowling each ball as if their lives are dependent on it and all those Pakistani players diving on the field. These are not fixed things.

Miandad needs those Infans from every gullie of Pakistan the way your front bowlers are giving extras. The Irfan Kid has heart and never die attitude that his players desperately need.

This series has been a dandy so far. Exactly what you would expect of these two wonderful teams. Rarely does a sporting event live up to the hoopla like this.
How `bout that Kaifi, isnt he something? And is Shoaib Akhtar a stud or what?

Farzana & Sridhar:
You two have your heads up your asses.

Brat:
If Tendya were the captain, you would have been treated to a whole bunch of gracious platitudes by now. It`s not Ganguly`s M.O. to make gracious statements in the middle of the series. You have to remember that this is the guy who mentally disintegrated Steve Waugh who supposedly invented mental disintegration. Just wait till the end of the series and the Prince will spout forth with all kinds of gracious statements and so will Tendya & Dravid. Then you can have your heart`s fill.
These days the verbal sparring by way of press statements is part and parcel of the game. Have you noticed how after each game the Indians keep saying that the pressure will be on Pakistan in the next match? This is standard operating procedure picked up from the inimitable aussies.
The whole idea is to keep nagging the opposition with statements that may instill self-doubt but not say things that will really rile them up.
The worst thing you can do is what Javed Miandad did when he said that every gully of Pakistan has a couple of Irfan Pathans running around. Way to go Javed, picking on a 19-year old medium pacer who has not said a word to provoke anyone. Talk about graciousness! So how did that turn out for Pakistan? After two games, little Irfan doesn`t look like a quaint little gully cricketer does he?
And now Rashid Latif has recommended that Laxman be dropped. Do you really need to rile up a guy like that? I know Akhtar castled him last night but wasn`t he starting to look ominous?
Try to understand where Ganguly is coming from, this is all very orchestrated. Every thing is in Pakistan`s favor here, the head to head match up record, the fact that they are playing home, the fact that they have more talent overall. The only thing India has going for them (other than that stupid batting line up) is that they are now, under King John, a tremendously professional and organized outfit.

Post no 144


hamid mere bhai…


now that pakis got
their sorry butts kicked,
defect and come on over!

with all your folks
(the more the merrier)
wife and kids and lover

we’ll gorge and feast
on fat babies
flavored with heaps of heeng,

we’ll dance and scream
with no restraint,
each one do his own theeng.

with hands on hearts
we’ll solemnly swear
to wash bas jumme ka jumma,

in this sweltering summer,
surely soon
we’ll outstink even the ummah!

kya liquor, kya meat
ya won’t miss nothing,
that nasha is much too weak

no way can it beat
the swaad of a wife
who hasn’t bathed for a week!

adaab.

Both sides are evenly matched - so this ding-dong should not surprise anyone in One Dayers.

Being no expert in cricket , I think the Pakistani officials generally downplayed their own team so as to get the general public mentally prepared to accept a defeat easily.

FV # 158

If the matches are fixed - it`s quite hard to tell. Those with a keener eye than mine could comment on the progression of matches - it does not appear that either team is `letting the other team win`. I think it would be hard to play such closely contested games to a pre-determined outcome. But just a stray thought - if they were fixed that might explain some of frustration I`ve had with Ganguly`s behavior - lack of graciousness towards the host country and team. Regardless - isn`t it a lot of fun to watch?

all:
Healthy rivarly and good cricket should rule the day, I watched it last night with one fellow who didn`t know where Cricket ends and Real Life starts, and confuses people of an entire country with a team - very unpleasant but ignoring him worked just fine. Watching it in a mixed Indian Pakistani crowd is awesome - wouldn`t watch it any other way if I could.

My beef with Ganguly I must air - although I`ve heard explanations for it - still it bothers me.
While the Pakistani team and people have been extremely gracious and always praising the Indian team - I don`t see anything similar coming from the Indian team - anyone care to comment? I see it as dignity and graciousness but perhaps for some people nationalistic pride ? comes above all?
Not only this, I think Ganguly could have steered clear of comments about chucking from Shoaib and concentrated on his own batting - that would make more of a difference than anything else.

re: Indo-Pak cricket matches
Gosh, i never thought someday i would be agreeing to what Farzana Bibi said in her last post.
I think she is right. These matches are fixed.
This is more than a hunch. The way Pak played the second and third tests, i thought it will sweep the series but it lost cheaply in Lahore. I think Pak will win the tie-breaker.
All for a good cause!
Sridhar

I cringe everytime someone mentions this series is fixed. I don`t think so. I liked inzi`s response to this question at the post game interviews.
These guys are already playing under so much pressure that talk like that will probably ot help put their minds at ease. Why can`t they just be playing cricket?

I have not read the other posts, so am not sure if anyone feels the same, but I think the Indo-Pak cricket series has been fixed by the two governments. Both the teams will be given equitable (if not equal) doses of the `feel good` factor. The BJP has already won the elections and Prez Musharraf will consolidate his position as democrat in fatigues.

Lots of people are winning over `dils`...it isn`t about cricket; this time it is isn`t about money and sponsors either...we are fighting an election campaign across the border.

Where is ROmairs incisive physhological commentary on the game? I feel cheated...

Very good lahore game. Inzy kind of knows the strengths and limitations and played a very calculated innings. Indians had Dravid, extras, kaif and umpires on their side.. an unbeatable combinations inspite of good chuckers from sohaib. I think Sohaib is taking some drugs. Else its tough to explain why he runs out of steam in 4 overs. It was very uncool of him to go in and out of the match while bowling his spell. The match ref should have objected. Dravid and the Indian side however could calmly exploit weaknesses in pakistani side and got a strainghforward win without any spearhead bowling (thanks to weak pakistani batting except Aaloo the great). Next one should be a much easier win for India, now that experience is kicking in, and tiredness of the ill-conditioned pakistani side is showing up.

Madira bedi was howling for Irfan Pathan. If an older man would have shouted for a teenage girl in such a manner, it would be considered very uncool, but older women seem to get away with such lusty calls with impunity.

India levels the series.

Rahul Dravid and Mohammad Kaif scored unbeaten fifties to guide India to a memorable series-levelling win over Pakistan in the fourth ODI at Lahore. Live Scores!
Full Coverage of the India vs Pakistan tour. Click Here


Dravid, who came in with India`s score reading 75-3 at the end of 10 overs, made 76 off 92 balls with nine fours. Kaif, meanwhile, ended up with 71 off 77 balls. His eight fours included a memorable drive to the long-off fence off Shabbir Ahmed, a shot he made despite a portion of his bat coming off.

Before the duo`s match-winning 132-run partnership for the sixth wicket, Dravid had forged yet another important partnership with Yuvraj Singh. The two men, who came together with their side struggling at 94-4 in the 13th over, brought India back into the game with a rousing 68-run partnership off just 64 balls. Yuvraj with 36 off 35 balls, an innings laced with five boundaries, was the dominant partner before a diving Yousuf Youhana pulled off an excellent catch to dismiss him.

nazar #153 But the brits and the aussies do invoke the Lord`s name. As in ``Ouzzat ya Goddam umpire!!`` or in ``Hell! Got me Goddam ass kicked agin by these pakis, mate!!`` or in ``Jesus Christ, umpire!! git yer eyes checked for Godsake!!`` or ``What the devil!! Got knocked out for a duck agin``

And sure God is watching out for Pakistan. Being stupid as we are, how else could we have won any match against these superior IT trained Indians??

Back to cricket - just an observation - they can continue to do so:

In the small interview after the match, I do not hear the English, Australians, Sri Lankans, South Africans etc cricketers talk about God, Inshallah, Mashallah, Bismillah (Inzamam with hands on stomach as if saying prayers) as the Pakistani cricketers do.

It is only cricket - nothing to do with the cosmic forces.

re:#148 by hossp
Thanks for your post.
I agree with much of what you are saying.
India has reached a stage where it sees tremendous economic benefits by trading with Pak. Political elite in India today feel that economic benefits can translate into votes during elections. Hence the rush to capitalize on India`s economic boom by BJP thr` the now infamous slogan of ``India is shining``. BJP also feels that by emphasising on trade and economy, Kashmir can be relegated to a lower level of priority. Hence there is no rush to solve the Kashmir problem though a commitment has been made at the highest level that the issue will be addressed to both side`s satisfaction.
Pak is in a different boat. It has not reached a stage where it can see trade as bringing any political benefits. Its political masters being the military elite, latter see no reason to get excited about the increasing trade and people to people contacts. What benefit will these bring to the Army, they ask? It will be hard for the Army to give up its adverserial role vis-a-vis India as such a role has heaped tremendous monetary and political benefits in the past.
The only reason why Mushy is singing a peace tune is due to the tremendous pressure from USA. Latter is busy finishing off Al-Qaida and any friction between India and Pak is a distraction. Mushy is being suitably rewarded (a loan write off and status of a non-NATO ally). So, Mushy is hibernating for the moment but Jehad is by no means over.
Pak has much in stake during this cricket match. While India hopes to better relations with Pak for future trade, Pak is trying to demonstrate to the world that it is not a terrorist nation and that it can be friendly when it wants to. This will go a long way to attract investors. If the worst enemy India can tour cricket and find the country friendly, other people surely will have no objection to visiting or investing in Pakistan.
Read the following article which has a similar line of thinking:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=329967
Finally, i do hope that India and Pak become true friends, without any vested interests coming in between them and devoid of any ideological baggage. Mushy is good for the moment but how long will he last and even if he did, will he bring true peace? Only time will tell.
Sridhar

re: #146 by tahmed32
``There is a momentum behind this peace process that is far greater than you seem to think.``
For the sake of both countries and its people, i hope you are right and i am wrong. I hope that this peace move is not just a ``tactical retreat`` by Mushy. I will look for the signs of change in military mindset by what it does on ground rather than by mere rhetoric or bonhomie between the people and visitors from India.
Sridhar

re: #147 by sadna

``Like a cunning chanakyan hindoo,....``
Chanakya was a great political strategist of his time. Thanks for elevating me to that high position!
Sridhar

hossp #148 I find your post has little to do with reality. Thus: you sweep aside the findings of a major US based research institution by claiming they must have allowed the pakistan army to fool them. In making this absurd and self-deluding claim (do you seriously think the researchers at this center can be so easily fooled by the pakistan army?), you also ignore the fact that the Pew poll jives with what anyone can observe in real life in terms of lack of protests against army action against al qaeda terrorists and enthusiasm with which people have supported musharaff`s peace initiatives with india).

I find the rest of your post to be a mixture your anti-panjabi prejudices and anti-army rhetoric.

About your anti-panjabi prejudices, I find these insulting and not worthy of further comment. I happen to be a panjabi, so I wonder if you dislike panjabis so much why you bother to discuss anything with me. Go talk to your fellow karachiites if you think you are so superior to punjabis.

As for your anti-army rhetoric - I am the first one to condemn things the pakistan generals did wrong (as in not punishing those who attacked civilians in 1971, in overthrowing civilian governments, in prolonging the kashmir issue long after it was clear that we had reached a military and political stalemate). But I dont believe in blanket condemnations of the kind you indulge in. The pakistan army is doing a great job of rounding up those who sought to make pakistan a haven for their criminal terrorist activities, and for this it deserves applause. And there is no question that musharaff is doing a better job than virtually any pakistani leader i can think of in terms of seeking peace with honor for Pakistan. And God bless him for that.

tahmad and rsridhar,

We are again traveling the beaten path. I agree with Sridhar that there does not seem to be any attempt by the Pakistan Army to keep the process moving smoothly. The army will continue to throw some roadblocks in the process that the army does not really believe in.
It is true that the Kashmir issue cannot be just wished away but bringing the jehadi and Kashmir issue on every turn just bears out that the army would keep the seeds of discord in front to walk away from the current process, whenever convenient .
To have an effective peace process going from both sides, there have to be some interests; both economic and political, that find it important to move the process forward.

In India there seems to be several interested groups with honest motives to improve relations with Pakistan. Indian businesses see an opportunity to get into a market not big but in close proximity. It is whole lot less overhead to sell goods to Pakistan then to may be some Middle East countries. Indian entertainment Industry sees a captive market that is already hooked on its products. Indian’s growing international trade sector sees peace on the border as a prelude to more security it can offer to international investors.

These interests are not necessarily depended upon having good relations with Pakistan. But they do bring in sanity and purpose to the peace process. If the relations in Pak-India don’t move forward these groups can live with that too.

What do we have in Pakistan??? Food industry sector in Pakistan sees some daylight in improving relations. Other traders just would rather have distribution relationship with Indian businesses to make some money. Pakistan has small industrial sector but lots of traders who support the peace with India. Most of these traders are based in Sindh or Karachi and Indian would find people of Sindh to be genuinely interested in peace with India rather than the people of Punjab who are led by their emotional noses into this process.

Now if we look at the factor working against the peace process in Pakistan, we find that the Army itself is the biggest hurdle as better relations with India hurt Pakistan army’s pocket book more than anything else. We just can’t assume that the army would fall on the sword.
If one party in the process is going to be adversely impacted, no sane person can assume that that party would follow the path of its own destruction for a long period.

The Pakistan army is moving forward reluctantly because it is under pressure on so many fronts that it needs to keep at least some fronts quiet for x number of period. Once the pressure is relieved in other areas, Pakistan army will go back to its old ways.

Just briefly touch on real live examples. India wants the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus route open from the very beginning; it is Pakistan, which is throwing one obstacle after another. Take the issue of opening the border in Sindh-Rajasthan, India wants to open that border to open a major trade route but Pakistan tells that it would take a year to 1 ½ year to fix a few kilometer of road!!! The people just don’t know that trade is already taking place- road or no road, and opening of the border would just increase that trade manifold.

On the political side, BJP finds it convenient to continue the peace process as it helps to move forward in finding some solution in Kashmir. Not the solution that Pakistan is looking for but the solution that can put Kashmir way down on the list. The nature of BJP constituency depends on some anti-Pakistan sentiments and BJP and its allies won`t give that up as that would continue to bring them votes and political legitimacy with the north Indian belt or Hinduvta crowd. If BJP completely drops its stand on Pakistan then it is not much different than Congress in terms on economic program for the people of India. Hence we often see ridiculous statements of confederation between the two countries. We know that that will not happen in a long time but it helps the BJP to sell its idea of peace with Pakistan to its constituents.

We have factors on both sides that can derail the current process. There are just more of them on Pakistan side than on the Indian side.

I am not going to discount the current process. It is helpful as there is no doubt that only country that can help democracy in Pakistan is India. Pakistan democratic forces cannot beat the Pakistan Army without the Indian help. However, that time will come a little bit later.

PS. tahamd. The survey that you reported with 86%approval of Mushy must be done in the army HQ in Rawalpindi. Mushy will not find this much support in Pakistan. You can analyze that too. Sindh, Baluchistan, and NWFP population is still about 40% of Pakistan population and Mush has zero support there.

rsridhar #145
Like a cunning chanakyan hindoo, you are telling a country which aimed to challenge all of Islam`s enemies including superpowers, to narrow down its vision drastically and be content with trade with kafir countries? Shame on you.

rsridhar #145 Thanks for remembering the post I had addressed to you. Your basic point seems to be be that there is a disconnect between the average Pakistani (or North Indian, both of whom you see as being emotion driven) and the mindset (as you see it) of the Pakistan policy makers. I think the facts and logic speak otherwise:

1. Why would musharaff even agree to ``confidence building measures`` if he wasnt sincere? After all, the only way you can demonize a people is by keeping them apart, as indeed has been the case of India and Pakistan the past 50 years.

2. Musharaff has become very popular in Pakistan as a RESULT of his peace moves with India: the latest poll (taken by the respected US Pew center - see today`s Dawn) shows him with a popularity rating of 86%!! Higher than virtually any elected leader in the world today!! Here is an extract from the Dawn article: ``A vast majority of Pakistanis, about 86 per cent, rates President Pervez Musharraf favourably, says a survey by a major American organization. The report by the Washington-based Pew Research Center also says that 60 per cent Pakistanis view President Musharraf ``very favourably.`` This is ``by far the highest rating of any leader in the survey,`` says poll director Andrew Kohut.``
This popularity is all the more interesting since it comes at a time when Pakistanis and Indians are playing cricket at the same time that Pakistani jawans are engaged in a massive effort to rid our country of the middle eastern and central asian terrorists.

I see that hamidm writes about heeng-smelling hindus and stuff - the fact is i grew up in rawalpindi like him and never heard about heeng until I first read his posts on chowk. Dont let a few irresponsible individuals like hamidm and urstruly sitting in foreign countries hide the facts that are there for all to see: the vast majority of Pakistanis (the elite as well as the poor) are decent people who wish only to live in peace and to see their children get educated and get good jobs.

There is a momentum behind this peace process that is far greater than you seem to think.

re:#102 by tahmed32
tahmed Sahib,
I had to take a little break and come back to answer your post addressed to me. When one is angry, one is not very objective.
I agree that trade benefits from good relations and peace. But, unlike some North Indians on chowk who are going gaga over the latest peace process, i am more pragmatic. I am looking for signs of change in the mindset of the ruling elite and if the peace process is being institutionalised as it is in India. In India, i see BJP making peace with Pak an election issue and this way, it will be able to justify the peace moves and make it a permanent fixture. I also see some politicians in India talk about a give and take on Kashmir.
Is Pak doing anything to institutionalise peace process with India? Is Mushy or Jamali preparing the public that a give and take on Kashmir may be inevitable?
The bonhomie that we see between Pakis and some Indians is good but does not mean peace is assured. Most Indians and Pakis are emotional people and can love and hate ferociously at the same time. The same shopkeeper who did not charge Urmila Matondkar any money for purchases would be sending money for Jehad in Kashmir.
It is the mindset i am talking about. Read the following article which talks about this mindset:
http://headlines.sify.com/2875news4.html?headline=What~Pakistanis~really~think~of~us!
Titled: What Pakistanis think of Indians, it talks about the paranoia that an average Paki has of India. Has this changed at all? Paki elite institutionalised hatred and jehad against India and have spent a lot of money and resources over the years: in madrassas, in ISI etc. Has this all changed?
Is the Pak army and its brass willing to forgo in public the possibilty that Pak may never have Kashmir: by force or by jehad? Is Mushy preparing Pak opinion towards this end.
Make no mistake, tahmed sahib. This cricket tour was made possible only because BJP thinks it can now make political gains out of this peace process. This in turn happened due to India`s sterling economic progress and hitting a GDP of 8% this year. That is why BJP has the balls (excuse my French!) to stand up in front of an average Indian and say: ``India is shining!). I do not accept that statement because there is a lot of poverty in India but i know that BJP has made this into an election issue and it has every right to do so. Peace process with Pak dovetails beautifully with this new slogan. I have no doubt India is prepared for peace with Pak but doubt if Pak is doing the same.
The other day Mushy, during a India Today press conclave kept harping on the same old theme: Kashmiri jehadists are not terrorists but freedom fighters. If one was looking for a change in mindset of the Pak`s ruling elite, one did not get any hints there. Then i am reading the story that Pak army is busy building bunkers on its side of LOC and i am thinking: ``Yes, India is fencing off LOC to prevent Jehadi vermins from entering but why is Pak putting in huge bunkers and weapons in those bunkers? Possibly to assist jehadists to infiltrate into India if the peace talks fail``.

So, you see, there are no attempts to institutionalise the peace process. It all depends on the whims and fancies of a dictator. If that dictator is overthrown/killed (not unlikely), we will all be back to square one.
I am amused at the recent bonhomie between Pak and North Indians due to cricket. We are also seeing some collaboration in movie making. Other than Jehad, the only other things that seem to interest Pakis are: cricket and Indian movies. So, it is not surprising that we are seeing some collaboration with India in the last 2 categories. But make no mistake. This will not help the peace process so much as the change in the mindset of the ruling elite in Pak. I am not saying stop the interactions in cricket and movies but let us be pragmatic. A public opinion in favor of peace means nothing in Pak where a military dictator rules and decides on the fate of millions of his countrymen. It means a lot in India which is a democracy.
In the end, i would like you to look into the Srilanka model and how India now finally has peace with that country and a roaring trade. More than 1200 IT workers from Srilanka work in Hyderabad and Chennai (Madras). How was this made possible when only a decade ago India was a much hated word in Srilanka is an intersting story that you can read in the following URL:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=329872
Sridhar

.......... i am not much of a cricket fan and don`t particularly hate hindoos even thought i don`t trust anyone who doesn`t eat meat or drink hard liquor, but i sure am glad pakistan kicked their sorry butts .........it just feels good !............. now maybe they will pack up and go home ............ i just don`t like the idea of these guys walking all around pindi, my home town - there seems to be something sacrilegeous about it ............. don`t ask me why - it just is ............. all my life i was told how horrible the heeng-eaters are and how they don`t take baths and eat little babies and walk around with a knife under their smelly armpits and wouldn`t let grandma into their kitchen even though they had known her family for two generations ............ and now here they are, running loose on sacred soil ................

............ cricket be danged - i want them out of there !

I knew it...

http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/MAR/099566_PAKIND2003-04_18MAR2004.html

Meanwhile, the post-mortem into the Rawalpindi match continued, and The Times of India came up with a novel reason for India`s defeat: the boring diet of their players. The daily reports that the Indians had daal [lentil] soup, and then chose between Italian pasta with sauce or plain rice with daal, with ``boring boiled vegetables``, mashed potatoes and vegetarian sandwiches. The Pakistanis, on the other hand, tucked away into plenty of chicken and mutton, with some ras malai [milk-based dessert] thrown in as well. The newspaper also spoke to Zahid Rasool Hasmi, the catering head of the Marriott Hotel, where the two teams were putting up. ``We had nothing to do with it [the menu], the Indian team management wanted it.``

I am sure peshawar hindus dont light-up fire crackers when India wins the match, although they may have ``brotherly`` feelings with the dal-khors, because they are patriots.

plats8: #140: Indian public reaction - there will be a few newspaper articles about Kaneria,
and some surprise as to how he made it to the team.````

I agree, though I think the attraction will last longer than what you have mentioned. There seems to be a desire amongst Indian journalists to try to figure out how and why non-Muslims are living, surviving and even happy in Pakistan. They seem to have very little understanding of it, and get a bit surprised when they see it in the flesh. Your comment indicating, ``surprise as to how he made it to the team,```` sums it up.

I have been reading all the Indian newspapers regularly, for this series. They are doing a good job of covering it. And have been quite fair. And Pakistani players are regularly contributing to them (their English seems to have improved greatly, all of a sudden, including Inzamam`s). Every now and then, there is an article about paritition, religious minorities etc. in Pakistan. All these articles are very positive, but I find them interesting, since they have nothing to do with cricket, yet they are under the cricket section......

``Secular, Pak-style

Kadambari Murali
Peshawar, 19 March

Mohen lal is a Hindu. He was born and brought up in Peshawar; his grandfather moved here ages ago. He`s married a local Hindu girl. Mohen is a man who won’t find it hard to pass the Tebbit test — he plans to cheer wholeheartedly for Pakistan in the ODI match here on Friday.

``I`m Pakistani through and through,`` says Mohen, a staffer of a local hotel`s housekeeping department.

``Yes, tell them how much we beat you here,” laughs a colleague while Mohen beams. ``I love it here,`` he says. ``We are a big community, we have our temple in Karimpura, we have no problems with the Muslims and we celebrate Holi and Id together. Peshawar is a land of peace.``

Peshawar has thousands of Hindus like Mohen, alongside about 80,000 Sikhs, many of them traders in the famous Karkhana Bazaar on the city`s outskirts (you get everything from fruits to weapons, though drugs are passé).....``( http://www.htcricket.com/htcricket/6939_625737,001600530002.htm)

Romair #135,

Indian public reaction - there will be a few newspaper articles about Kaneria,
and some surprise as to how he made it to the team. But after the first day, he
will cease to be a novelty item. I don`t remember Anil Dalpat being a media
sensation in any way.

Indian #138 ``What a bunch of clowns bringing frikking religion and politics in sport.``

Exactly!!

What a bunch of clowns bringing frikking religion and politics in sport.

Romair, if Kaneria bowls last critical over to Zaheer Khan or Kaif or Irfan whole India will be routing against that guy, you can bet your life on it. It is Pakis who will be confused.

BTW Karachi crowd was sophisticated and more enthusiastic than Pindi. I already fell in love with Karachi. Now I want to see how rowdy Punjabis from Lahore respond to it.

Alephnull,

Well said...

Frankly I find Jang`s post amazing. When criticizing the other country, lets atleast maintain some degree of fairness. My colleague, a Punjabi religious poet, has what I consider to be a very funny name: John Sylvester. I always thought Sylvester was a good first name and not a last name. At a recent British council meeting, I came across many Ronalds, Davises, Darrens, and Priscillas. None of them were white or dead. Another popular Pakistani christian name is Akshay... Madhuri, and Juhi are common amongst women. Like I pointed out... Yohanna, the name is directly out of the Bible, and no Muslim has the name Yohanna.


-YLH

#135 - Romair

The terms `inshallah`, `mashallah`, `subhanallah` are widely used by minorities living among muslim populations all over the world. I know a coptic and an Iraqi christian. They both use these terms.

But I don`t think Yohana will be a good captain, he is too gentle and soft spoken. Captian needs to portray an aura of control and discipline. My vote is for Abdur Razzaq in a couple of years.

It will be interesting to see what happens in India, when Danesh Kaneria starts playing in the Tests. He is now the top spinner in Pakistan, and is getting to be one of the better ones in the world. I think he will become a main media attraction - specially for Indian journalists.

I think Yohana and Danesh are now part of the Pakistan cricket team, on a long term basis. Yohana should be the next captain, after Inzamam, at a stage when all the young Pakistani players, including Danesh, will be reaching their prime. So Pakistan should have a good team, under him. Yohana is very highly respected everywhere.

Yohana is a pure Punjabi speaking Christian from Lahore. Christians and Parsis in Pakistan, in comparison to Ahmedis, are not discriminated against much (relatively speaking). In fact, Parsis are probably the most successful economic group in Pakistan. So I don`t think anyone is gunning for Yohana. Had he been an Ahmedi, it would have been a different story. I am not sure whether anyone is gunning for Dinesh. He seems to say, Inshallah`` a lot, in his interviews. So maybe someone is gunning for him (gunning being a relative term, also).

I believe the actual pronounciation of Yohana`s name is not You-haaa-na. It is Yo-hnnn-a.

Sadna

No, the comparison is absolutely correct. Your government also kills its own people whom it has been calling atoot ang for the past 56 years.

As a matter of fact it is the intellectual dishonesty and inherent prejudices of people like you that this whole region is miserable. Your government weaponizes itself against an enemy which is 10 times smaller and weaker by pushing half a million more prostitutes on the streets of Calcutta and bombay every year; whereas our government weaponizes itself against an enemy which is 10 times bigger and stronger by murdering its own people. Above all this, there is one heartless baniya who is making all the money out of our misery.

Jang #112

{{he would be called Joseph John like any good keralite.. or at least Jose Juan.}}

This is a digression from cricket. I have little interest in why Yousuf Youhana carries the name he does, and whether he would be safe if he was named differently. However, you are quite incorrect about Christian names in Kerala. There are multiple local equivalents of Joseph and John (and of other Biblical names, such as George, Matthew, Philip, Joshua, etc.); some of these are far less obvious and recognizable cognates than Yusuf and Youhanna and would completely elude someone who was not alert or not in the know.

Guys,

Please leave this board to cricket. Believe me, Kashmiris can wait till
the end of this series.

Dear Jang,

First of all you missed the point completely... Religion has nothing to do with Cricket.

Secondly the Urdu Bible has `Yohanna` for John. No Muslim in Pakistan is named `Youhanna`... Yohanna is a christian name. The Muslim equivalent is `Yahya`. Must the name be in keralite tradition a British one always? The question you should be asking is what was the name in Hebrew. My Christian colleagues and had quite the discussion yesterday about the Christian names... and they slammed my assertion that it would be much better if Yousef Youhanna called himself `Joseph John` ... saying that the great batsman is a son of the soil. Ironically my colleague`s own name is John, and not Yohanna.

As for Danesh Kineria... he is a hindu atleast that is what he claims his religion is... the name Danesh is actually pronounced `D-i-n-e-s-h`... though the idiots in the media now call him `Danish`, which the persian name ... and it is spelt `D-A-N-I-S-H` usually...


In any event the faith of our players has nothing to do with cricket... nor do we want to score brownie points with anyone.

-YLH

mumbaikar #125 It is really nice to see how warmly ordinary Pakistanis treated the Indian fans in their midst. However I am not surprised - as I have always said, the average Pakistani (the one hamidm ridicules as ``Abdul``, that Jay portrays as being filled with hatred towards India, and the one urstruly pretends does not exist) is in fact a decent, big-hearted, self-respecting, hospitable individual. The average Pakistani may be poor, but he will willingly invite you to share ``dal-roti`` with him.

Indian fans are finding out for themselves what I have been saying all along on chowk. Truth ultimately comes out.

Urstruly
``It is just like India in Kashmir who needs to keep an army of 700,000 to control 1500 insurgents. ``
Wrong comparison. These foreign militants in Wana were allies of the Pakistani army for 25 years, thats is why they got refuge there.

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Sadna

They are Paksitani citizens now. After the jihad in Afghanistan was over and soveits were defeated these people married among local families and started leading quiet lives. These families in turn are now trying to protect their sons-in-law. If they were outlaws then you don`t need a 60,000 strong army to capture them; just a jirga would have been enough. But an offensive of this scale can only be against the whole population of the region and not 400 outlaws.

It is just like India in Kashmir who needs to keep an army of 700,000 to control 1500 insurgents.

Urstruly
``The people who are dying are Paksitani citizens.``

And what are those 600-700 foreign militants doing there, meanwhile? Writing software for Intel?

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mohammad amjad

what has turned us into such remorseless murderers? Such malaise? Such indifference towards your fellow human beings and citizens?

This space was meant for cricket. Let us keep our sentiments confined to cricket only.

Sadna

The people who are dying are Paksitani citizens. No Paksitani governmental institution, especially army, has any right to use state apparatus against its own people. I think government is the most corrupt, most inefficiant and anti-human institution that human beings have ever invented and no government can be given such excessive powers.

According to current international standards what Na PAk fauj is doing falls under the category of `crimes against humanity`. When western imperialist thugs were preparing the case to attack iraq and capture its natural resources they accused Saddam of committing the same acts of `crimes against humanity` against his own people when he quelled rebellions against himself. Why the situation is any different in paksitan? In near future when these imperialists will attack Paksitan they will build their cases on these `crimes against humaity` wouldn`t they?

Romair:

You have no idea what you’re talking about. You should stick to what you know and stop commenting on cricket. But wait a minute, what do you know? It seems like you tend to come of with asinine gems no matter what the topic of discussion.

Nobody in their right mind would rank Dravid and Ponting ahead of Tendulkar and Hayden.

Regarding Laxman being the mentally toughest one since he performs so well against Australia… OK, so Laxman averages 63 against Aus in 12 matches. A small sample but fine, that’s great! But against all other opposition he averages 40, that’s less than Pravin Amre’s average! So where’s his mental toughness against Sri Lanka and England and Zimbabwe and the lot? Did it ever occur to you that the Australian brand of bowling and bowling strategy may be more suited to how Laxman bats and that is explanation of his anomaly with Australia and not some Zen master voodoo?

You say that Sehwag is comparable to Afridi and will lose his place in the side due to ‘inconsistency’. Huh??? Afridi averages 32 and has NOT PLAYED A SINGLE TEST MATCH OUTSIDE THE SUBCONTINENT! Sehwag averages 46 lifetime and 42 on the road. Sehwag has more centuries on the road than at home. At this point in his career Matty Hayden had scored half as many centuries and was batting an average 8 runs lower than Sehwag. Just because the guy is unorthodox does not mean that he is inconsistent. Better version of Afridi, my ass!

Regarding Ganguly being over the hill, a few facts. Ganguly averages more on the road (42) than at home (41). Ganguly’s last 10 road tests have been against tough opposition (4 Eng, 2 NZ, 4 AUS) and in these last 10 road tests his average is identical to his career average. So I don’t see a big dip in the performance. And as far as his low average in the few recent ODIs go, why conveniently pick a small sample? A team plays about 30 ODIs in a year so one would think that you’d at least go back about 30 games to the world cup to see a solid number. Well, Ganguly averages 45 in ODIs since the world cup. No one says that Ganguly is an all time great batsman, he’s a solid gritty cricketer who has streaky tendencies. But over the hill? Come on!!!

Statistics may not tell the whole story but they are very handy at exposing blatant lies and idiocies. You don’t know jack about Indian cricket so why don’t you go play battleship?

I think Dravid is now the best batsman on the Indian team. He is currently at his peak, while Tendulkar, is a couple of years beyond his peak. Dravid is technically the most perfect batsman in the world. He doesn`t make a mistake. I didn`t see him play a single incorrect shot in his 99. While Tendulkar, every now and then, does. I would rank Dravid, alongwith with Lara and Ponting, to be the top three batsmen in the world, at the moment. They would be followed by Hayden and Tendulkar.

The other really good bat in the Indian team is Laxman. Pakistan is lucky he got out early. I have no idea why the Indian selectors have kept him out of the team for so long. He didn`t play in the World Cup. In his current form, he is one of the top ten batsman in the world. I would put him in the same category as Yohana or Inzamam, in current form. And he is mentally the toughest batsman on the Indian team, since his best performances seem to come against Australia.

He is followed by Yuvraj Singh. He should play tests also. Pakistan is lucky he hasn`t done much so far. He is very young, and should be a permanent member of India`s side, in all forms of