Peaceful Strokes

re: #146 by tahmed32
``There is a momentum behind this peace process that is far greater than you seem to think.``
For the sake of both countries and its people, i hope you are right and i am wrong. I hope that this peace move is not just a ``tactical retreat`` by Mushy. I will look for the signs of change in military mindset by what it does on ground rather than by mere rhetoric or bonhomie between the people and visitors from India.
Sridhar

re: #147 by sadna

``Like a cunning chanakyan hindoo,....``
Chanakya was a great political strategist of his time. Thanks for elevating me to that high position!
Sridhar

hossp #148 I find your post has little to do with reality. Thus: you sweep aside the findings of a major US based research institution by claiming they must have allowed the pakistan army to fool them. In making this absurd and self-deluding claim (do you seriously think the researchers at this center can be so easily fooled by the pakistan army?), you also ignore the fact that the Pew poll jives with what anyone can observe in real life in terms of lack of protests against army action against al qaeda terrorists and enthusiasm with which people have supported musharaff`s peace initiatives with india).

I find the rest of your post to be a mixture your anti-panjabi prejudices and anti-army rhetoric.

About your anti-panjabi prejudices, I find these insulting and not worthy of further comment. I happen to be a panjabi, so I wonder if you dislike panjabis so much why you bother to discuss anything with me. Go talk to your fellow karachiites if you think you are so superior to punjabis.

As for your anti-army rhetoric - I am the first one to condemn things the pakistan generals did wrong (as in not punishing those who attacked civilians in 1971, in overthrowing civilian governments, in prolonging the kashmir issue long after it was clear that we had reached a military and political stalemate). But I dont believe in blanket condemnations of the kind you indulge in. The pakistan army is doing a great job of rounding up those who sought to make pakistan a haven for their criminal terrorist activities, and for this it deserves applause. And there is no question that musharaff is doing a better job than virtually any pakistani leader i can think of in terms of seeking peace with honor for Pakistan. And God bless him for that.

tahmad and rsridhar,

We are again traveling the beaten path. I agree with Sridhar that there does not seem to be any attempt by the Pakistan Army to keep the process moving smoothly. The army will continue to throw some roadblocks in the process that the army does not really believe in.
It is true that the Kashmir issue cannot be just wished away but bringing the jehadi and Kashmir issue on every turn just bears out that the army would keep the seeds of discord in front to walk away from the current process, whenever convenient .
To have an effective peace process going from both sides, there have to be some interests; both economic and political, that find it important to move the process forward.

In India there seems to be several interested groups with honest motives to improve relations with Pakistan. Indian businesses see an opportunity to get into a market not big but in close proximity. It is whole lot less overhead to sell goods to Pakistan then to may be some Middle East countries. Indian entertainment Industry sees a captive market that is already hooked on its products. Indian’s growing international trade sector sees peace on the border as a prelude to more security it can offer to international investors.

These interests are not necessarily depended upon having good relations with Pakistan. But they do bring in sanity and purpose to the peace process. If the relations in Pak-India don’t move forward these groups can live with that too.

What do we have in Pakistan??? Food industry sector in Pakistan sees some daylight in improving relations. Other traders just would rather have distribution relationship with Indian businesses to make some money. Pakistan has small industrial sector but lots of traders who support the peace with India. Most of these traders are based in Sindh or Karachi and Indian would find people of Sindh to be genuinely interested in peace with India rather than the people of Punjab who are led by their emotional noses into this process.

Now if we look at the factor working against the peace process in Pakistan, we find that the Army itself is the biggest hurdle as better relations with India hurt Pakistan army’s pocket book more than anything else. We just can’t assume that the army would fall on the sword.
If one party in the process is going to be adversely impacted, no sane person can assume that that party would follow the path of its own destruction for a long period.

The Pakistan army is moving forward reluctantly because it is under pressure on so many fronts that it needs to keep at least some fronts quiet for x number of period. Once the pressure is relieved in other areas, Pakistan army will go back to its old ways.

Just briefly touch on real live examples. India wants the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus route open from the very beginning; it is Pakistan, which is throwing one obstacle after another. Take the issue of opening the border in Sindh-Rajasthan, India wants to open that border to open a major trade route but Pakistan tells that it would take a year to 1 ½ year to fix a few kilometer of road!!! The people just don’t know that trade is already taking place- road or no road, and opening of the border would just increase that trade manifold.

On the political side, BJP finds it convenient to continue the peace process as it helps to move forward in finding some solution in Kashmir. Not the solution that Pakistan is looking for but the solution that can put Kashmir way down on the list. The nature of BJP constituency depends on some anti-Pakistan sentiments and BJP and its allies won`t give that up as that would continue to bring them votes and political legitimacy with the north Indian belt or Hinduvta crowd. If BJP completely drops its stand on Pakistan then it is not much different than Congress in terms on economic program for the people of India. Hence we often see ridiculous statements of confederation between the two countries. We know that that will not happen in a long time but it helps the BJP to sell its idea of peace with Pakistan to its constituents.

We have factors on both sides that can derail the current process. There are just more of them on Pakistan side than on the Indian side.

I am not going to discount the current process. It is helpful as there is no doubt that only country that can help democracy in Pakistan is India. Pakistan democratic forces cannot beat the Pakistan Army without the Indian help. However, that time will come a little bit later.

PS. tahamd. The survey that you reported with 86%approval of Mushy must be done in the army HQ in Rawalpindi. Mushy will not find this much support in Pakistan. You can analyze that too. Sindh, Baluchistan, and NWFP population is still about 40% of Pakistan population and Mush has zero support there.

rsridhar #145
Like a cunning chanakyan hindoo, you are telling a country which aimed to challenge all of Islam`s enemies including superpowers, to narrow down its vision drastically and be content with trade with kafir countries? Shame on you.

rsridhar #145 Thanks for remembering the post I had addressed to you. Your basic point seems to be be that there is a disconnect between the average Pakistani (or North Indian, both of whom you see as being emotion driven) and the mindset (as you see it) of the Pakistan policy makers. I think the facts and logic speak otherwise:

1. Why would musharaff even agree to ``confidence building measures`` if he wasnt sincere? After all, the only way you can demonize a people is by keeping them apart, as indeed has been the case of India and Pakistan the past 50 years.

2. Musharaff has become very popular in Pakistan as a RESULT of his peace moves with India: the latest poll (taken by the respected US Pew center - see today`s Dawn) shows him with a popularity rating of 86%!! Higher than virtually any elected leader in the world today!! Here is an extract from the Dawn article: ``A vast majority of Pakistanis, about 86 per cent, rates President Pervez Musharraf favourably, says a survey by a major American organization. The report by the Washington-based Pew Research Center also says that 60 per cent Pakistanis view President Musharraf ``very favourably.`` This is ``by far the highest rating of any leader in the survey,`` says poll director Andrew Kohut.``
This popularity is all the more interesting since it comes at a time when Pakistanis and Indians are playing cricket at the same time that Pakistani jawans are engaged in a massive effort to rid our country of the middle eastern and central asian terrorists.

I see that hamidm writes about heeng-smelling hindus and stuff - the fact is i grew up in rawalpindi like him and never heard about heeng until I first read his posts on chowk. Dont let a few irresponsible individuals like hamidm and urstruly sitting in foreign countries hide the facts that are there for all to see: the vast majority of Pakistanis (the elite as well as the poor) are decent people who wish only to live in peace and to see their children get educated and get good jobs.

There is a momentum behind this peace process that is far greater than you seem to think.

re:#102 by tahmed32
tahmed Sahib,
I had to take a little break and come back to answer your post addressed to me. When one is angry, one is not very objective.
I agree that trade benefits from good relations and peace. But, unlike some North Indians on chowk who are going gaga over the latest peace process, i am more pragmatic. I am looking for signs of change in the mindset of the ruling elite and if the peace process is being institutionalised as it is in India. In India, i see BJP making peace with Pak an election issue and this way, it will be able to justify the peace moves and make it a permanent fixture. I also see some politicians in India talk about a give and take on Kashmir.
Is Pak doing anything to institutionalise peace process with India? Is Mushy or Jamali preparing the public that a give and take on Kashmir may be inevitable?
The bonhomie that we see between Pakis and some Indians is good but does not mean peace is assured. Most Indians and Pakis are emotional people and can love and hate ferociously at the same time. The same shopkeeper who did not charge Urmila Matondkar any money for purchases would be sending money for Jehad in Kashmir.
It is the mindset i am talking about. Read the following article which talks about this mindset:
http://headlines.sify.com/2875news4.html?headline=What~Pakistanis~really~think~of~us!
Titled: What Pakistanis think of Indians, it talks about the paranoia that an average Paki has of India. Has this changed at all? Paki elite institutionalised hatred and jehad against India and have spent a lot of money and resources over the years: in madrassas, in ISI etc. Has this all changed?
Is the Pak army and its brass willing to forgo in public the possibilty that Pak may never have Kashmir: by force or by jehad? Is Mushy preparing Pak opinion towards this end.
Make no mistake, tahmed sahib. This cricket tour was made possible only because BJP thinks it can now make political gains out of this peace process. This in turn happened due to India`s sterling economic progress and hitting a GDP of 8% this year. That is why BJP has the balls (excuse my French!) to stand up in front of an average Indian and say: ``India is shining!). I do not accept that statement because there is a lot of poverty in India but i know that BJP has made this into an election issue and it has every right to do so. Peace process with Pak dovetails beautifully with this new slogan. I have no doubt India is prepared for peace with Pak but doubt if Pak is doing the same.
The other day Mushy, during a India Today press conclave kept harping on the same old theme: Kashmiri jehadists are not terrorists but freedom fighters. If one was looking for a change in mindset of the Pak`s ruling elite, one did not get any hints there. Then i am reading the story that Pak army is busy building bunkers on its side of LOC and i am thinking: ``Yes, India is fencing off LOC to prevent Jehadi vermins from entering but why is Pak putting in huge bunkers and weapons in those bunkers? Possibly to assist jehadists to infiltrate into India if the peace talks fail``.

So, you see, there are no attempts to institutionalise the peace process. It all depends on the whims and fancies of a dictator. If that dictator is overthrown/killed (not unlikely), we will all be back to square one.
I am amused at the recent bonhomie between Pak and North Indians due to cricket. We are also seeing some collaboration in movie making. Other than Jehad, the only other things that seem to interest Pakis are: cricket and Indian movies. So, it is not surprising that we are seeing some collaboration with India in the last 2 categories. But make no mistake. This will not help the peace process so much as the change in the mindset of the ruling elite in Pak. I am not saying stop the interactions in cricket and movies but let us be pragmatic. A public opinion in favor of peace means nothing in Pak where a military dictator rules and decides on the fate of millions of his countrymen. It means a lot in India which is a democracy.
In the end, i would like you to look into the Srilanka model and how India now finally has peace with that country and a roaring trade. More than 1200 IT workers from Srilanka work in Hyderabad and Chennai (Madras). How was this made possible when only a decade ago India was a much hated word in Srilanka is an intersting story that you can read in the following URL:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=329872
Sridhar

.......... i am not much of a cricket fan and don`t particularly hate hindoos even thought i don`t trust anyone who doesn`t eat meat or drink hard liquor, but i sure am glad pakistan kicked their sorry butts .........it just feels good !............. now maybe they will pack up and go home ............ i just don`t like the idea of these guys walking all around pindi, my home town - there seems to be something sacrilegeous about it ............. don`t ask me why - it just is ............. all my life i was told how horrible the heeng-eaters are and how they don`t take baths and eat little babies and walk around with a knife under their smelly armpits and wouldn`t let grandma into their kitchen even though they had known her family for two generations ............ and now here they are, running loose on sacred soil ................

............ cricket be danged - i want them out of there !

I knew it...

http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/CRICKET_NEWS/2004/MAR/099566_PAKIND2003-04_18MAR2004.html

Meanwhile, the post-mortem into the Rawalpindi match continued, and The Times of India came up with a novel reason for India`s defeat: the boring diet of their players. The daily reports that the Indians had daal [lentil] soup, and then chose between Italian pasta with sauce or plain rice with daal, with ``boring boiled vegetables``, mashed potatoes and vegetarian sandwiches. The Pakistanis, on the other hand, tucked away into plenty of chicken and mutton, with some ras malai [milk-based dessert] thrown in as well. The newspaper also spoke to Zahid Rasool Hasmi, the catering head of the Marriott Hotel, where the two teams were putting up. ``We had nothing to do with it [the menu], the Indian team management wanted it.``

I am sure peshawar hindus dont light-up fire crackers when India wins the match, although they may have ``brotherly`` feelings with the dal-khors, because they are patriots.

plats8: #140: Indian public reaction - there will be a few newspaper articles about Kaneria,
and some surprise as to how he made it to the team.````

I agree, though I think the attraction will last longer than what you have mentioned. There seems to be a desire amongst Indian journalists to try to figure out how and why non-Muslims are living, surviving and even happy in Pakistan. They seem to have very little understanding of it, and get a bit surprised when they see it in the flesh. Your comment indicating, ``surprise as to how he made it to the team,```` sums it up.

I have been reading all the Indian newspapers regularly, for this series. They are doing a good job of covering it. And have been quite fair. And Pakistani players are regularly contributing to them (their English seems to have improved greatly, all of a sudden, including Inzamam`s). Every now and then, there is an article about paritition, religious minorities etc. in Pakistan. All these articles are very positive, but I find them interesting, since they have nothing to do with cricket, yet they are under the cricket section......

``Secular, Pak-style

Kadambari Murali
Peshawar, 19 March

Mohen lal is a Hindu. He was born and brought up in Peshawar; his grandfather moved here ages ago. He`s married a local Hindu girl. Mohen is a man who won’t find it hard to pass the Tebbit test — he plans to cheer wholeheartedly for Pakistan in the ODI match here on Friday.

``I`m Pakistani through and through,`` says Mohen, a staffer of a local hotel`s housekeeping department.

``Yes, tell them how much we beat you here,” laughs a colleague while Mohen beams. ``I love it here,`` he says. ``We are a big community, we have our temple in Karimpura, we have no problems with the Muslims and we celebrate Holi and Id together. Peshawar is a land of peace.``

Peshawar has thousands of Hindus like Mohen, alongside about 80,000 Sikhs, many of them traders in the famous Karkhana Bazaar on the city`s outskirts (you get everything from fruits to weapons, though drugs are passé).....``( http://www.htcricket.com/htcricket/6939_625737,001600530002.htm)

Romair #135,

Indian public reaction - there will be a few newspaper articles about Kaneria,
and some surprise as to how he made it to the team. But after the first day, he
will cease to be a novelty item. I don`t remember Anil Dalpat being a media
sensation in any way.

Indian #138 ``What a bunch of clowns bringing frikking religion and politics in sport.``

Exactly!!

What a bunch of clowns bringing frikking religion and politics in sport.

Romair, if Kaneria bowls last critical over to Zaheer Khan or Kaif or Irfan whole India will be routing against that guy, you can bet your life on it. It is Pakis who will be confused.

BTW Karachi crowd was sophisticated and more enthusiastic than Pindi. I already fell in love with Karachi. Now I want to see how rowdy Punjabis from Lahore respond to it.

Alephnull,

Well said...

Frankly I find Jang`s post amazing. When criticizing the other country, lets atleast maintain some degree of fairness. My colleague, a Punjabi religious poet, has what I consider to be a very funny name: John Sylvester. I always thought Sylvester was a good first name and not a last name. At a recent British council meeting, I came across many Ronalds, Davises, Darrens, and Priscillas. None of them were white or dead. Another popular Pakistani christian name is Akshay... Madhuri, and Juhi are common amongst women. Like I pointed out... Yohanna, the name is directly out of the Bible, and no Muslim has the name Yohanna.


-YLH

#135 - Romair

The terms `inshallah`, `mashallah`, `subhanallah` are widely used by minorities living among muslim populations all over the world. I know a coptic and an Iraqi christian. They both use these terms.

But I don`t think Yohana will be a good captain, he is too gentle and soft spoken. Captian needs to portray an aura of control and discipline. My vote is for Abdur Razzaq in a couple of years.