Chowk Staff March 11, 2004
#65 Posted by Romair on March 14, 2004 12:43:05 pm
There is something interesting about the Pakistani cricket team:
It is one of the few areas, in Pakistan, where those in an elite position (in this case cricket players) are actually represented by the common Pakistani. Nearly every member of the team is from the middle or lower middle class. This is why they cannot speak English and some can barely speak good Urdu. This, to me at least, has always been the sign of a merit-based system in Pakistan, i.e. a system not dominated by an elite minority. This is why none of us on Chowk are on any kind of a elitist sporting team. While many of us are in all kinds of other elitist jobs, positions, political parties, businesses etc. This shows can utilize our influence there, but not in a merit based system.
I don`t know how much of the following is correct, but from what I know:
- Yosuf Yohanna is a Christian. Easily the most prominent Christian in Pakistan, and is going to be next Captain of Pakistan. I don`t know of any other profession in Pakistan, where a Christian can reach such a high-profile position. He has already defeated South Africa as a Captain. He has always been my favorite player on the team, from the day he started. Calm, composed, always smiling, non-controversial, bats at any spot he is asked to, and one of the top five 1-day batsmen in the world. His father was a sweeper for Wapda, from what I know. Yosuf could never have risen to prominence in a non-merit based system.
- Danish Kaneria is the most prominent Hindu in Pakistan, and is the top spinner in the country. There aren`t too many other prominent Hindus in Pakistan
- Azhar Mahmood used to be welder. And worked in a welding shop in Pindi.
- Abdul Qadir`s father used to sell vegetables in Juma Bazaars
- Shoaib Akhtar`s father was a carpenter
- Inzamam couldn`t understand English when he started playing. Still cannot speak it. So he probably isn`t even close to the Chowk crowd
I would say nearly all the other players are probably from a very middle class background. My guess is that Imran Farhat, Shahid Afridi, and maybe a few others are the only ones from a well-off background.
I have noticed that in professions where the results are immediately in front of everyone, merit seems to rule. I have seen this amongst my friends who were in sports (squash), fighter flying, and a few other places. One cannot make it thru these on the basis of contacts.
It is one of the few areas, in Pakistan, where those in an elite position (in this case cricket players) are actually represented by the common Pakistani. Nearly every member of the team is from the middle or lower middle class. This is why they cannot speak English and some can barely speak good Urdu. This, to me at least, has always been the sign of a merit-based system in Pakistan, i.e. a system not dominated by an elite minority. This is why none of us on Chowk are on any kind of a elitist sporting team. While many of us are in all kinds of other elitist jobs, positions, political parties, businesses etc. This shows can utilize our influence there, but not in a merit based system.
I don`t know how much of the following is correct, but from what I know:
- Yosuf Yohanna is a Christian. Easily the most prominent Christian in Pakistan, and is going to be next Captain of Pakistan. I don`t know of any other profession in Pakistan, where a Christian can reach such a high-profile position. He has already defeated South Africa as a Captain. He has always been my favorite player on the team, from the day he started. Calm, composed, always smiling, non-controversial, bats at any spot he is asked to, and one of the top five 1-day batsmen in the world. His father was a sweeper for Wapda, from what I know. Yosuf could never have risen to prominence in a non-merit based system.
- Danish Kaneria is the most prominent Hindu in Pakistan, and is the top spinner in the country. There aren`t too many other prominent Hindus in Pakistan
- Azhar Mahmood used to be welder. And worked in a welding shop in Pindi.
- Abdul Qadir`s father used to sell vegetables in Juma Bazaars
- Shoaib Akhtar`s father was a carpenter
- Inzamam couldn`t understand English when he started playing. Still cannot speak it. So he probably isn`t even close to the Chowk crowd
I would say nearly all the other players are probably from a very middle class background. My guess is that Imran Farhat, Shahid Afridi, and maybe a few others are the only ones from a well-off background.
I have noticed that in professions where the results are immediately in front of everyone, merit seems to rule. I have seen this amongst my friends who were in sports (squash), fighter flying, and a few other places. One cannot make it thru these on the basis of contacts.
#66 Posted by jang on March 14, 2004 4:13:02 pm
Is there a ``Spinner of the Post-Match`` award? Guess who is an obvious nominee..
#67 Posted by tahmed32 on March 14, 2004 4:13:02 pm
Romair #65 I didnt realize the humble backgrounds of so many players in the Pakistan team. The credit is all the more to these team members for seeking excellence despite lack of facilities. And to the Pakistan cricket selection board for going strictly by talent!!
#68 Posted by HisExcellency on March 14, 2004 4:13:02 pm
#60 by impressions
I disagree with your analysis. Indian batting was helped by 38 extras bowled by Pakistan and 6 extra overs. As Sanjay Manjrekar and Navjot Sidhu commented during the lunch break, a score of 349 means that you have won 90% of the game already. The fact that Pakistan`s batting (which was considered to be brittle) took the game so close is a serious concern for India.
India`s bowling revolves around Zaheer, Nehra, Balaji and Pathan. Three of these bowlers are left-arm seamers. This means they can`t play in the same game. This also means India will continuously have to experiment with Kartik, Powar, Ganguly, Yuvraj, Tendulkar and Sehwag as their 4th and 5th bowler. None of these (except perhaps Powar) can stop the flow of runs like Harbhajan or Kumble.
Zaheer/Nehra/Pathan and Balaji may be able to concede just 120-140 runs in their 30 overs. But the 4th and 5th bowlers are more likely to concede 130-150 in their 20 overs. This means Indian batsmen will continuously have to post totals in excess of 320 which won`t be easy if Shoaib, Sami, Shabbir and Razzaq cut down on their extras in the remaining games. At least 3 batsmen out of Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguly and Dravid must score in every game for India to win. If 2 fail, India will be doomed.
I disagree with your analysis. Indian batting was helped by 38 extras bowled by Pakistan and 6 extra overs. As Sanjay Manjrekar and Navjot Sidhu commented during the lunch break, a score of 349 means that you have won 90% of the game already. The fact that Pakistan`s batting (which was considered to be brittle) took the game so close is a serious concern for India.
India`s bowling revolves around Zaheer, Nehra, Balaji and Pathan. Three of these bowlers are left-arm seamers. This means they can`t play in the same game. This also means India will continuously have to experiment with Kartik, Powar, Ganguly, Yuvraj, Tendulkar and Sehwag as their 4th and 5th bowler. None of these (except perhaps Powar) can stop the flow of runs like Harbhajan or Kumble.
Zaheer/Nehra/Pathan and Balaji may be able to concede just 120-140 runs in their 30 overs. But the 4th and 5th bowlers are more likely to concede 130-150 in their 20 overs. This means Indian batsmen will continuously have to post totals in excess of 320 which won`t be easy if Shoaib, Sami, Shabbir and Razzaq cut down on their extras in the remaining games. At least 3 batsmen out of Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguly and Dravid must score in every game for India to win. If 2 fail, India will be doomed.
#69 Posted by HisExcellency on March 14, 2004 4:13:02 pm
This is one of the greatest ODIs I have ever seen. A high scoring game, tons of sixes and fours, no crowd trouble, continuous tension and some really superb fielding. Sehwag`s square cuts and backfoot glances were a treat to watch. Tendulkar looked far tentative in comparison and almost got himself caught (off a no-ball). Pakistan bowlers bowled rubbish. 38 extras! Even the offspinner Shoaib Malik bowled a no-ball. Basically Pakistan bowled 6 extra overs. I felt sorry for Dravid. He really deserved that 100. Ganguly also played a responsible knock after a string of poor performances. The expression on his face when he got out said it all. With a little experience, Kaif could become another Azharuddin for India. He has the technique. Just lacks the aggression. The pre-lunch session belonged entirely to India.
Shoaib and Sami need to take the cue from disciplined Indian bowling. Balaji and Zaheer bowled at a good length throughout, instead of trying to bowl fast. India dominated this game until the 25th over of Pakistan`s innings, both in morale and fielding/team work. But even a combination of these cannot stop an Inzamam in full flow. Pakistan`s Mr.Consistency usually gets out in 40s or 50s. But this time, he really stamped his class in a chanceless display of batting. I thought Youhana should have reached 100 as well. And Younis Khan needs to improve his footwork. Nehra and Kaif were eventually India`s heroes. Unlike the heady days of Kapil and Gavaskar, the current Indian team actually puts in the extra effort when it matters most. A spectacular catch and a spectacular over saved the day for India.
This is one game that I didn`t feel bad about Pakistan`s losing. This was a fight to the finish... not a meek surrender by the Pakistanis. I hope the remaining matches are as exciting.
Shoaib and Sami need to take the cue from disciplined Indian bowling. Balaji and Zaheer bowled at a good length throughout, instead of trying to bowl fast. India dominated this game until the 25th over of Pakistan`s innings, both in morale and fielding/team work. But even a combination of these cannot stop an Inzamam in full flow. Pakistan`s Mr.Consistency usually gets out in 40s or 50s. But this time, he really stamped his class in a chanceless display of batting. I thought Youhana should have reached 100 as well. And Younis Khan needs to improve his footwork. Nehra and Kaif were eventually India`s heroes. Unlike the heady days of Kapil and Gavaskar, the current Indian team actually puts in the extra effort when it matters most. A spectacular catch and a spectacular over saved the day for India.
This is one game that I didn`t feel bad about Pakistan`s losing. This was a fight to the finish... not a meek surrender by the Pakistanis. I hope the remaining matches are as exciting.
#71 Posted by gujjubania on March 14, 2004 7:45:01 pm
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#72 Posted by ironman on March 14, 2004 7:45:01 pm
tahmed32 #68,
``Romair #65 I didnt realize the humble backgrounds of so many players in the Pakistan team.``
Truth do ye speak, Sir Tahmad.
Just the other day Inzi was holding his head in both hands looking sullen. Probably wondering why he wasn`t born rich instead of handsome.
;)
``Romair #65 I didnt realize the humble backgrounds of so many players in the Pakistan team.``
Truth do ye speak, Sir Tahmad.
Just the other day Inzi was holding his head in both hands looking sullen. Probably wondering why he wasn`t born rich instead of handsome.
;)
#73 Posted by yogiraj on March 15, 2004 4:19:48 am
I do not think India won. As a Bania I should know. This was just a time filler.
Feel gooooood from all ends.
Hathi has two sets of daats. One we see. One that are used for.... Are our friends from across the border saying.....Om Shanti Om?? eh?
Hamidm 12345. You are really hillarious... I would, if I could, teach you how to love hing.
My prediction..... Naaaah wish. Let Pakistan win ...Cricket.
Yogiraj Patil
Feel gooooood from all ends.
Hathi has two sets of daats. One we see. One that are used for.... Are our friends from across the border saying.....Om Shanti Om?? eh?
Hamidm 12345. You are really hillarious... I would, if I could, teach you how to love hing.
My prediction..... Naaaah wish. Let Pakistan win ...Cricket.
Yogiraj Patil
#74 Posted by plats8 on March 15, 2004 10:18:32 am
Gujjubania,
Since you clearly state that you have no time for cricket, why not leave this
board alone and create one to discuss your own fantasies.
Romair,
I think subcontinental cricket has in general become more egalitarian - good
to see it being reflected in the composition of the Pakistan team. I think this
has added more street-fighting instincts in general; even someone like Ganguly
who comes from a priveleged background has it.
Since you clearly state that you have no time for cricket, why not leave this
board alone and create one to discuss your own fantasies.
Romair,
I think subcontinental cricket has in general become more egalitarian - good
to see it being reflected in the composition of the Pakistan team. I think this
has added more street-fighting instincts in general; even someone like Ganguly
who comes from a priveleged background has it.
#75 Posted by impressions on March 15, 2004 10:18:33 am
Re: 67 His Excellency,
I can’t really disagree with much of what you say and I also don’t see how you disagree with my analysis.
My point is, after that game it’s hard to see how Pakistan came away with a psychological advantage. The phrases ‘psychological advantage’ and ‘moral victory’ are appropriately used in case of draws where there was no clear winner. In a game that India won fair and square, how the hell did Pakistan get the psychological advantage? Does India have problems and were they highlighted? Sure! Who’s denying that?
But only schtickmiesters like Romair can conclude that Pakistan got the better of India in the psychological battle. In fact according to every Pakistani expert who has cared to opine on this, the biggest reason for Pakistan’s loss was indeed between their ears.
Re: 72 Gujjubannia,
‘Dude’, homoerotica aye?
Now I get it.
All you need is a good schtoinking by a Pathani schlong right up your yinyang.
Then you’ll know Gandhi who.
I can’t really disagree with much of what you say and I also don’t see how you disagree with my analysis.
My point is, after that game it’s hard to see how Pakistan came away with a psychological advantage. The phrases ‘psychological advantage’ and ‘moral victory’ are appropriately used in case of draws where there was no clear winner. In a game that India won fair and square, how the hell did Pakistan get the psychological advantage? Does India have problems and were they highlighted? Sure! Who’s denying that?
But only schtickmiesters like Romair can conclude that Pakistan got the better of India in the psychological battle. In fact according to every Pakistani expert who has cared to opine on this, the biggest reason for Pakistan’s loss was indeed between their ears.
Re: 72 Gujjubannia,
‘Dude’, homoerotica aye?
Now I get it.
All you need is a good schtoinking by a Pathani schlong right up your yinyang.
Then you’ll know Gandhi who.
#76 Posted by Indian on March 15, 2004 12:32:47 pm
I will root for Pakistan for 2nd ODI. Just to make series interesting.
#77 Posted by plats8 on March 15, 2004 1:10:36 pm
Impressions/HisExcellency,
My estimate is that both the teams walk away from this with comparable levels
of comfort. From the Pakistani side, they realised that in the absence of Harbhajan
/Kumble, the 4th and 5th Indian bowler can be picked at ease.
From the Indian perspective, the fact that Shoaib/Sami/Naved sprayed all over
is not really relevant ; that is not why they won. The fact is that they could bat with
complete ease against the best Pakistani attack. Seldom did the batsmen look
like they were under pressure - I`d think this is a good feeling to go away with.
Among the real quick ones, I personally find Brett Lee and Shane Bond to be
far more menacing than Shoaib. Perhaps it is just a matter of discipline. In fact,
Sami seems more impressive than Shoaib; just give the kid a couple of years.
Perhaps bringing Shoaib in as first change is a better strategy.
``At least 3 batsmen out of Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguly and Dravid must score in
every game for India to win. If 2 fail, India will be doomed.``
Add Laxman to that list.
My estimate is that both the teams walk away from this with comparable levels
of comfort. From the Pakistani side, they realised that in the absence of Harbhajan
/Kumble, the 4th and 5th Indian bowler can be picked at ease.
From the Indian perspective, the fact that Shoaib/Sami/Naved sprayed all over
is not really relevant ; that is not why they won. The fact is that they could bat with
complete ease against the best Pakistani attack. Seldom did the batsmen look
like they were under pressure - I`d think this is a good feeling to go away with.
Among the real quick ones, I personally find Brett Lee and Shane Bond to be
far more menacing than Shoaib. Perhaps it is just a matter of discipline. In fact,
Sami seems more impressive than Shoaib; just give the kid a couple of years.
Perhaps bringing Shoaib in as first change is a better strategy.
``At least 3 batsmen out of Tendulkar, Sehwag, Ganguly and Dravid must score in
every game for India to win. If 2 fail, India will be doomed.``
Add Laxman to that list.
#78 Posted by HisExcellency on March 15, 2004 2:23:48 pm
#77 by plats8
+++
Among the real quick ones, I personally find Brett Lee and Shane Bond to be
far more menacing than Shoaib. Perhaps it is just a matter of discipline. In fact,
Sami seems more impressive than Shoaib; just give the kid a couple of years.
Perhaps bringing Shoaib in as first change is a better strategy
+++
I agree. Shoaib has still not really understood that ODI bowling is about ``control first, venom later``. McGrath, Kapil, Imran, Garner and Wasim bowled at 80% of their top speed during ODIs precisely for the same reason.
On another note, the toss will be very important for Rawalpindi as well as the two Lahore matches. These are day/night matches. The team batting second usually enjoys a considerable advantage because Pakistani grounds get a lot of dew during the night. The dew helps the ball swing a little bit more, but its also makes it difficult to grip the ball. As a result, fast/medium bowlers are unable to control the movement... and spinners are unable to spin the ball. Batsmen enjoy plenty of wides and lollipop deliveries. On the brighter side, the wet outfield makes it hard for batsmen to score boundaries. Nevertheless, conditions still favor the side batting under the lights.
These factors became evident during the 4-nation tournament in Lahore during 1998 when South Africa & Sri Lanka successfully chased huge totals posted by Pakistan and West Indies under the lights.
I am betting that the toss-winning captain will choose to bowl first in Rawalpindi.
+++
Among the real quick ones, I personally find Brett Lee and Shane Bond to be
far more menacing than Shoaib. Perhaps it is just a matter of discipline. In fact,
Sami seems more impressive than Shoaib; just give the kid a couple of years.
Perhaps bringing Shoaib in as first change is a better strategy
+++
I agree. Shoaib has still not really understood that ODI bowling is about ``control first, venom later``. McGrath, Kapil, Imran, Garner and Wasim bowled at 80% of their top speed during ODIs precisely for the same reason.
On another note, the toss will be very important for Rawalpindi as well as the two Lahore matches. These are day/night matches. The team batting second usually enjoys a considerable advantage because Pakistani grounds get a lot of dew during the night. The dew helps the ball swing a little bit more, but its also makes it difficult to grip the ball. As a result, fast/medium bowlers are unable to control the movement... and spinners are unable to spin the ball. Batsmen enjoy plenty of wides and lollipop deliveries. On the brighter side, the wet outfield makes it hard for batsmen to score boundaries. Nevertheless, conditions still favor the side batting under the lights.
These factors became evident during the 4-nation tournament in Lahore during 1998 when South Africa & Sri Lanka successfully chased huge totals posted by Pakistan and West Indies under the lights.
I am betting that the toss-winning captain will choose to bowl first in Rawalpindi.
#79 Posted by impressions on March 15, 2004 2:23:48 pm
Re: Plats8
Ditto.
The 2nd game should be a doosie. ODIs are such crapshoots to begin with and then add to that two evenly matched teams and the baggage that goes with the Indo-Pak fare and you have a very unpredictable series indeed.
Earlier I gave a slight edge to Pakistan in both ODI and Test just because I think they are a little bit more talented overall than the Indians but based on the last two ODIs played between these two now you really have to wonder. I think that the intangibles of mental toughness and professional outlook may be with the Indians enough to overcome the talent gap and the home field advantage. Take a bow, John Wright!
And these are just ODIs, as far as I am concerned this is pajama cricket. The real deal starts on 3/28 and all of these issues are multiplied manifold in the tests.
It now looks as if the Indians will have Zaheer, Agarkar, Pathan, Kumble & Tendulkar as their bowling lineup in the tests. This is a disciplined line up that will plug away, induce mistakes and get wickets against Pakistan. The big question is how will the Pakistani attack deal with Indian batting. Shoaib and Sami are the key performers because there is nothing to suggest that Shabbir, Razzaq and Kaneria can make many inroads against this insane Indian line up. The only way is to try to blow the Indians away.
So how will Shoaib and Sami do? If they are going to waste their short bursts and spray it all around like the last two ODIs Chopra, Dravid & Tendya will gladly let it all go by and then boy will there be hell to pay from Sehwag, Laxman and Ganguly! This is not the India of old where if you got lucky and ripped thru Tendya the others folded like a cheap menu. This lineup is so talented that it involves one of the great attacking batsmen of all time in a consolidating role!
Somebody needs to knock some sense into Shoaib and Sami before the Indians pull off a giant kill here. Where`s Miandad`s bat?
Ditto.
The 2nd game should be a doosie. ODIs are such crapshoots to begin with and then add to that two evenly matched teams and the baggage that goes with the Indo-Pak fare and you have a very unpredictable series indeed.
Earlier I gave a slight edge to Pakistan in both ODI and Test just because I think they are a little bit more talented overall than the Indians but based on the last two ODIs played between these two now you really have to wonder. I think that the intangibles of mental toughness and professional outlook may be with the Indians enough to overcome the talent gap and the home field advantage. Take a bow, John Wright!
And these are just ODIs, as far as I am concerned this is pajama cricket. The real deal starts on 3/28 and all of these issues are multiplied manifold in the tests.
It now looks as if the Indians will have Zaheer, Agarkar, Pathan, Kumble & Tendulkar as their bowling lineup in the tests. This is a disciplined line up that will plug away, induce mistakes and get wickets against Pakistan. The big question is how will the Pakistani attack deal with Indian batting. Shoaib and Sami are the key performers because there is nothing to suggest that Shabbir, Razzaq and Kaneria can make many inroads against this insane Indian line up. The only way is to try to blow the Indians away.
So how will Shoaib and Sami do? If they are going to waste their short bursts and spray it all around like the last two ODIs Chopra, Dravid & Tendya will gladly let it all go by and then boy will there be hell to pay from Sehwag, Laxman and Ganguly! This is not the India of old where if you got lucky and ripped thru Tendya the others folded like a cheap menu. This lineup is so talented that it involves one of the great attacking batsmen of all time in a consolidating role!
Somebody needs to knock some sense into Shoaib and Sami before the Indians pull off a giant kill here. Where`s Miandad`s bat?
#80 Posted by tahmed32 on March 15, 2004 9:45:58 pm
HE: I assume the match will be played at the rawalpindi club grounds. Is that right?
ironman #71 Yes indeed. Romair does seem to come up with a good observation once in a while (in between his ongoing lecture series on ``Politics, Economics, War and Everything Else as Determined by Romair``).
ironman #71 Yes indeed. Romair does seem to come up with a good observation once in a while (in between his ongoing lecture series on ``Politics, Economics, War and Everything Else as Determined by Romair``).
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