Unbinding India

#38 Nazar

There are competing definitions of what hindutva is. A sophisticated nuanced perspective is very nicely expressed here

Why India is a Nation

The unity in diversity is not mere phraseology. Civilizational threads, explicit and implicit, bind the peoples of india in a family resemblance structure (X is similar to Y, Y is similar to Z but X may not be very similar to Z).

Satish

Aplologies fot not addressing you directly, while ariting the post, the reference just felt convinient (lazyness) .

Its possible that the scholarship of the univ prof is inmitigated bullcrap, I am unable to judge that (I assume you are in a position to do so). What I do know is the sensitivity that exists as a colonial hangover towards such research, and this is well exploited by folks seeking political expediency. In my experience, proud folks who get offended by such (scholarly) conclusion, often times are uninterested in questioning hyper-idolized histriography, and are completely ignorant of critiques presented by indian ``scholars``.

I have one example; there is an author Iravati Karve, poona college prefessor, hardly a secular or anything, who has done a lot of research (at BORI) on various mahabharat manuscripts. She presents these in a critical review (Yugant), and many of her assertions are potentialy very offensive. Whereas she remains blissfully ignored by most, such writing from a massa, my guess is, would have been exploited easily, because of the existence of colonial hangover.

Jang

My problem is not who the doer of the particular ``research`` is. My problem is that it is not ``research`` but unmitigated bullcrap. And the only reason why this bullcrap is being called research is that it is done by a massa in a US univ. If it was done by an Indian, no one would have classified it as ``research``. At best, it is a collection of gossip about Shivaji.

I am not going into the defensive cower that you are trying to put me into. If calling crap by its proper name makes me a hindutva fascist or whatever then thats what I am. And by the way, the attack on BORI was not done by a hindutva organisation, but by MSS which has given a call for Marathas to leave hinduism and join something called ``Shiv-dharma``, and is strongly backed by progressive mafia. (It matches nicely with their long term plans to balkanise India, a dream shared by many of our ``friends`` here.) This inconvenient fact (about MSS being ``progressive``) was conveniently hidden by the progressive media for the reasons well known.

In any case, I`d have appreciated a direct reply rather than a mention in a post to someone else.

Satish

Satyamvada #23,

``Russia is a military power (yes. even now) - but almost no cultural or
economic power``

Russia has no cultural power - care to elaborate on that ?

I will try to answer the main issues that Farzana Versey has raised.

It is interesting that on the one hand, she insists that there is no cultural
commonality amongst Indians ( which btw, is what the communists and almost all
detractors of India say). She then goes onto label and lump indian thinkers as
only relating to salvation and not solutions !!
If you can reduce Indian thinkers to merely dharma-karma-moksha then that is possibly
an indication of common cultural thinking after all ? You cant have it both ways.

She then goes on to state that all Indian thinkers were irrational wheras
Western thinkers were rational.

Farzana`ji, I would suggest that you read up on history, current ideas in vogue on philosophy
- about the indic influences and interaction between Greek and indian philosophers
before spouting off. I do understand that access to academic or scholarly level
literature is much more difficult in Mumbai (or in other cities of India).

Go to www.indianscience.org
- look up the tremendous works in astronomy,mathematics,
steelmaking, metallurgy, linguistics, shipbuilding, watermanagement etc that Indians
have done for ages. It seems like these are solutions...You are making a mistake
by reducing Indian thinkers to just the adhyatma-vidya aspects.

The reason why India has taken to knowledge related work in the present times, is
because Indians have a strong intellectual tradition, we have alway respected
knowledge of all kinds.

I agree with you that it is more appropriate for India to be referred to as Bharat -
also called Bharatavarsha. You may want to find out who Bharata was ?

Germany was formed only in the 1860`s and so are almost all other modern countries.
Germans call themselves Deutschland and are basically a mixture of tribes.
Pakistan is a day older than independent India

Yes, India ia young nation-state, but India as a civilizational entity has existed
for thousands of years. Even the Vishnupurana describes Indias geographical
boundaries ( read up http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/india.pdf )
Kalidaasa in his Kumaara-sambhava refers to Bharatavarsha as the land with the
Mountain as the head and two outstretched hands (sindhu and brahmaputra) that
extend to the sea.

As for as American culture is concerned - Most Americans identify with what is referred
to as a Judeo-Christian culture, they identify with Washington and Jefferson etc, they
think of it as the home of the free, land of the brave. Americans are supposed to be
hard workers because of their ``Protestant work ethic``. They are proud of their
Scientists and Philosophers and Poets. Much of this is standard educational material in
all school texts and Especially beginning College level texts.

Americans also identify themselves with ``Western Civilization`` they see themselves
as the inheritors of Greek democratic values - even the word ``Senate`` is taken from
Roman history. Adam Smith (a Britisher) is appropriated by Americans and others is
an icon of ``Western Civilization``. The ``Western Civilization`` is projected as being
rational as opposed to the irrational others. There is a whole pantheon of people
who are identofied with ``Western Civilization``.
Hollywood, Coke, McDonalds, Britney Spears etc are also only superficial expressions of
American cultural prowess. America projects the very concept of ``liberty`` as being
a ``Western`` idea ! which it alone can protect. America projects its ``freedom of religion``
as also a Western ideal - when it clearly not.
If you were to go through a Humanities degree courses in the US, you will know about
how the ``American`` culture and ``Western Civilization`` is inculcated into students.
A lot of this is a mishmash - but it serves to create a uniqe American cultural
identity.

Similiarly, I would hope that Indians also identify with a Indic Civilization - by
looking at our own great thinkers and contributors in all fields.

Your comments about Western thinkers being rational and Indians
not being so has already been answered. Maybe such categorization
by you is also an expression of the contempt you
hold for Indian thought.

I agree with your assessment about Jinnah. I also think that Savarkar
and Jinnah must both be studied and it is wrong to just badmouth and
dismiss them. It is possible that we may agree with parts of what they have
to say and we disagree with some other parts.
That is being rational and openminded.

Europe and America now dominate in technology - no doubt about that - so we as Indians
have a lot to learn and adapt that technology and make it better to work for our own
needs. Since Indians also have a strong intellectual tradition and we are open-minded
we can take what is good from others, acknowledge it and also contribute to overall
increase in knowledge. It is with this kind of exchange that India has worked for
thousands of years.

On a funny note - recently the Spanish media referred to the two Indians who
were detained after the madrid blasts as being of ``hindu origin`` - immediately all
the Paki media picked it up and propagated it. The Spanish easily interchange
Hindu/India as it is the same to them and also helps them to differentiante Indians
from India with the Indians of SouthAmerica. The Indian-muslims who go to the
middle east are reffered to as Hindu-muslims !!


But what is not so funny is Ms.Versey`s vehement denial of any kind of common cultural
strand that runs through India. Maybe she should be grateful for the Indic civilization
that accords her to express her opinions, however strange, without retribution.

``#41 by FarzanaVersey on March 18, 2004 6:59am PT
I do hope I managed to bring Das and his perspective into focus. Just a clarification: This is not a new book. Thanks for the comments of those who liked the article (and the “welcome back”…it has been just a month!).``

OK work. Particularly when election time comes.

Could you Please..Please..Please... write an article on how to drive in Saudi Arabia instead of Mumbai/Das` perspective/India?? Particularly by a woman. All said and done she could be doing umra??.

If you cannot... Can T or who-so-ever write.

OK. If T cannot cannot... Can YLH write the intruction sets.. I mean, how to drive in Saudi by a woman.

Ok if YLH cannot lets have his wife write up.

Jay was/is/will be a honest person. You know why F?. You can drive in Mumbai. Not in Mecca or Madina. You are a woman and a being a muslim (woman) does not matter....that`s always is im...

Jay is also right on one more point. Go there if you feel that is what is you profess. You do not have/will have guts.

Do you know where all the pimps like urs stay? Mecca?? Madina?? GEES. What a born lier of bunches ...and ..

India will be shining because we have started understanding likes of you/urs. And, btw, your tune has changed all of a sudden ... co-incidence ?

Please give me a write up .. How a woman should drive in Mecca or...

I give you in writing.. Pimps and whiner Rudali`s when questioned... run away. Lets us see.

Yours truely

Yogiraj Patil

``It seems to me that because of a colonial hangover a large number of Indians are
most willing to call previous Indian works as mumbo-jumbo and throw it away. It is
probable that if someone had told you that Yoga was valuable 20 years ago,
you would have probably dismissed it. ``

Surely there is no denying of a colonial hangover.. read Satish`s post for the flip side of the hangover. He is so touchy about research because its from a percieved massa. If you read popular books on Shivaji in vernacular on the other hand, they are chock-full of inconsistancies, as the primary goal is glorification of an idol and not history. There is certainly no challenge to accuracy there from colonially hung-over. Therefore clearly, the hangover is very strong as was exhibited in Bhadarkar Oriental Institute consisting of famous indian scriptures (of poona brahmins) being ransacked by hung-over folks.

The yoga was always popular in india, very much practiced widely, even seculars such as Nehru were ardent yoga fans. However, very many other texts (e.g. the various puranas) lost their value to indians themselves. That is what i mean by texts being rejected by the (indian) society itself as mumbo-jumbo. Whereas, the vedic samskaras are retained live traditions (similar to yoga), mumbo jumbo and all, as useful ways of organizing and celbrating life. But its silly to try to find scientific reasons for the kumkum tilak. Just enjoy it.

Dost/satya, I apreciate the concept of heros. So let us study history etc openly and frankly without a pre-determined idolization as a built in goal. For example, Shivaji should be studied for his ability to be a great warrior and leader, empire builder etc. But the details of history studied critically (by kids and all) will be of more enduring value.. let us shake the hangover really and not dogamtically.

I do hope I managed to bring Das and his perspective into focus. Just a clarification: This is not a new book. Thanks for the comments of those who liked the article (and the “welcome back”…it has been just a month!).

Dostmittarji:

Re. the white elephant reference by Das, it may be clear from the excerpt posted here. Re. your not expecting this kind of piece from me, at Chowk it is often forgotten that besides anger, my career did have a repertoire of mellow moments:)

- - -

#38 by nazarhayatkhan:
[India needs no ideology. It has a good constitution.]

Every society needs an ideology, either clearly stated or manifested in its working mores. A good constitution in fact depends on how it gets executed as per these norms.

[If Hindutva is linked and derived from Hindustan - it is OK.But if Hindutva is linked and derived from Hinduism - it needs to be cooly thought over again.]

Firstly, it is Bharat, not Hindustan! There has been an interesting discussion about Hindutva. I will be responding to some of those points below, but Hindutva in common parlance refers to the misuse of religion; what one might call, if one were trying to ape the West, the Talibanisation of Hinduism. There can be no excuse: it is a militant movement…someone called it “cultural nationalism”. This is an assumption that the nation has a uniform culture, which India does not. I see it, in the manner it is propagated, as cultural regression and militant nationalism.

- - -

#18 by satyamvada:

[Hindu and Hindutva has to do with looking at India from a civilizational perspective.
It encompasses acknowledgement and respect for ones own culture and capabilities
and place in the world.]

How does being Hindu (or anything else) make one look at one’s country from a civilisational perspective in everyday life? Faith does not rely on the crutch of civilisation; often it debases it. If a religion seeks acknowledgement it is only of one’s identity as a religion not as a culture. If you want to talk about yogasutras and their popularity in the West, they are packaged as mumbo-jumbo for the yuppie hippies. Look at the spread of the Brahma Kumaris, the Art of Living, Mahesh Yogi, Mata Amritanandmayi…all these are moored in religion. (I am restricting the discussion to Hinduism, though I would say the same about the spread of Islam or Christianity…they have been marketed as religions, not as culture, not for their capabilities to conduct a dialogue with their social, economic, psychological surroundings.)

[BTW, Savarkar - the originator of Hindutva was an atheist and even said that
Hindus should start eating beef, so that Hindus can start defending themselves
against Muslims.]

If you say Savarkar was the originator of Hindutva, then this culture must be very recent! Therefore, what acceptance ought it to get and what civilisational credibility does it have? I have said that Mahatma Gandhi is the originator of Hindutva. To digress, Jinnah ate pork and was not a practising Muslim…it means nothing.

[A Nehruvian prefers India to become a cheap copy of a European, wheras a Hindutva
fellow prefers India to be a great nation based on its own.]

Today, on the surface, every nation is a copy of the other, at least in urbanised sectors. Could you explain how the Hindutva fellow can reconcile the contradictions of being a cheap copy (MacDonald’s, malls, Western technology) and being a great nation on its own? By taking credit for the zero??

[For India to become great it is not just money - to be a superpower, there are
three aspects - economic, cultural and military…
The US is a superpower (or a Hyperpower) because it has all these three aspects
in abundance.] #23

Come again? How do you define American culture that it has in abundance?

And finally, the reason Western thought/philosophy got more currency than the Indian thinkers is not merely due to marketing skills, but because it laid emphasis on rationalism rather than the interplay of dharma, karma and moksha. The latter have their validity for those who lay great emphasis on blind or ‘seeing’ (as in ‘I saw the vision/god’) faith rather than systematic belief. In Indian philosophy, even when it sought reason, the end aim was salvation, not solution.

It works in certain environments, but it is not the basis on which you “acknowledge” a culture or bask in its “capabilities”.

#14 by dost-mittar
BTW, could you elaborate on what Gurcharan Das meant by India becoming a future white elephant.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He didn`t say India would become a white elephant - he said India is an elephant. The following extract from ``India Unbound`` should explain it all:

``The Economist has been trying, with some frustration, to paint stripes on India since 1991. It doesn`t realize that India will never be a tiger. It is an elephant that has begun to lumber and move ahead. It will never have speed, but it will always have stamina. A Buddhist text says
`The elephant is the wisest of all animals.
The only one who remembers his former lives
And he remains motionless for long periods of time
Meditating thereon``
The inversion between capitalism and democracy suggests that India might have a more stable, peaceful and negotiated transition into the future than say, China. It will also avoid some of the harmful side effects of an unprepared capitalist society, such as Russia. Although slower, India is more likely to preserve its way of life and its civilization of diversity, tolerance and spirituality against the onslaught of global culture. If it does, then it is perhaps a wise elephant.``

Jang

Your faith in western ``scholars`` is touching. But could you tell me what ``research`` James Laine did to cast doubts on Shivaji`s parentage? As far as I know, he was quoting ``jokes doing the rounds in Poona brahmin circles``. ``Jokes`` in a so-called ``scholarly`` book!

But that is ``scholarship`` as it comes from white massa, and all that our ancestors thought and wrote is mindless mumbo-jumbo!

Fariyaad karen hum to zamane se bure hain
Woh dard-e-zigar den to koi kuchh nahi kahta
Hum aah bhi bharte hain to ho jaate hain badnaam
Woh qatl bhi kar den to koi kuchh nahin kahta.

Satish

Satyamvada # 37.

Thanks. An article by you on ``Hindutva`` will be a great help. It needs to be very clearly defined.

In Pakistan, the TNT gradually got converted into some kind of an Islamic ideology & Mulla completely took it over. Now every leader runs around this question - it is difficult to gulp it down & it is difficult to vomit it out.

India needs no ideology. It has a good constitution.

If Hindutva is linked and derived from Hindustan - it is OK.
But if Hindutva is linked and derived from Hinduism - it needs to be cooly thought over again.

China is going guns - and it is a religion-less country.
India is also going guns - but this ``Hindutva`` confusion, if not clarified, could be a hampering force in its progress in future.

Jang,
I suggest that you visit an Ivy league school. You will notice that each dept like
Physics, Chemistry etc will have portraits,busts of the famous scientists.
There will be a great acknowledgement of the ``Western Scientific tradition``. You will also
learn that the topic of History of Science is an valid and integral part of that department.

All I am suggesting is that we Indians should not be ashamed of recognizing the
achievements of scholars if Indic heritage. If the Mathematical school
of Kerala was as good as those of Leibniz or Newton why should we not recognize it?

Reason is not just a word - it has a lot to do with research and analysis. What is wrong
with reasonably exploring and acknowleding the Indian scientific tradition ?
If there is mumbojumbo let us know about that, if there were valuable ideas let
us learn about that also.
Btw, The science of logic and reasoning in India is referred to as tarkashastra.

It seems to me that because of a colonial hangover a large number of Indians are
most willing to call previous Indian works as mumbo-jumbo and throw it away. It is
probable that if someone had told you that Yoga was valuable 20 years ago,
you would have probably dismissed it. Now that the Americans have taken it up,
Indians are not ashamed to identify with it. We have to get over such slavish
mentality. Do you know about Patanjali`s yogasutras ? Should we be studying it
or not ? ( I guess now that more Americans are studying it, Indians will also start
aping)


Nazar Khan,

Hindutva proponents refer to it as ``Cultural Nationalism``. There is even
a Supreme court decision on Hindutva.

The RSS got a lot of flak for suggsting that Indian Muslims should Indianise
Islam by interpreting the Koran according to Indian cultural values and not based
on arab culture !
The professional secularists in India screamed hoarse about such a suggestion.

I will write more about ``religion`` and the misapplication of that word in India and
other countries at a later time when I have more time.

Satyamvada # 18

(Hindu and Hindutva has to do with looking at India from a civilizational perspective.
It encompasses acknowledgement and respect for ones own culture and capabilities
and place in the world)

Thanks for your explanation.

If the ideology of `Hindutva` confines itself to the geographical, historical, knowlrdge and cultural past of Hindustan, it would be a healthy ideology for the good of India`s future.

However, if the religion becomes a main or major part of it, then it could be quite counter productive.

All ideologies, which include religions, tend to deprive the human being of his freedom. We are witnessing the work of Islamic ideology in Pakistan. The world has already seen the work of the communists, the Nazis, the old European experience with Church and so on.

So there is just an apprehension that BJP with the front face of ``Progress`` just might be able to get the religion too heavily involved in the Indian politics.

plats8, jang:
If I understand satyamvada correctly, he is not asking to accept blindly everything in the old sanskrit scriptures. Indeed, one cannot do so since they may contain inconsistent and contradictory material and much of the scientific stuff there may not stand the test of rigorous modern analysis. But that should not prevent us from taking a pride in our ancestors` achievements from the time of the inhabitants of Moen jo Daro, just as the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Persians take pride in their past. A positive identity is like the strong root of a tree and helps it withstand the strong winds of time. It is important however that this identity does not make us insular or arrogant or make us degrade others` identities. This is the danger of the extreme hindutva forces gathering strength in India today.

``This history can be used as examples for which a new generation of Indians can be
encouraged to make more progress in science and philosophy. ``

This to me is very silly. What future generations need is unincumbered rational thinking ability. There is no need to make sure that every line of IP code written in Gurgaon is related to Indraprastha of Pandavas. The future generation should be fearless about aquiring knowledge and furthering it; the source etc are very irrelevent. Rest of the humanity will respect them for their contributions and THEN they can be proud of it. I dont deny that the number of manuscripts that exist, but we as a society, over time has found them useless, so there must be a reason besides foreign-invasion theory (FIT). I am sure there is something important in them, and am all for scholarship about these, but I see no need to brainwash kids with mumbo-jumbo about great civilization etc. It is self-evident and if not, so be it. I do think that study of Sanskrit needs a major boost from the linguistic angle however. But let us not overdo this stuff.. let the kids get REAL self-confidence based on reasoning.

But here is the other problem with research: when and if you study the stuff, and go on to conclude that Shivaji may have been fathered by his Brahmin teacher, since his head-of-the-family dad was out on campaign according to docuents, all hell breaks loose.

Jang said:
``Its just not right to seek explanations to everything in old books, while its just fine to study them``.

You are absolutely correct. It is stupidity to seek explanantions for everything in old
books.
But knowing ones own background can also be used to prepare for the future. The
advantage that Indians have is that there is a tremendous library out there and we
can choose to adapt what we want for the present and the future.

Do you know that there are 3 million or more Sanskrit manuscripts lying around in
India - most are uncataloged. There is no other civilization which such a continuous
history and vast library. The numbers of greek documents are puny when compared to
sanskrit manuscripts. There are manuscripts in China, Japan etc which are all copies
of the original sanskrit manuscripts.

This does not mean that we should drop modern science at all ... on the
contrary...for eg:
When Indian Mathematicians make breakthroughs in maths, the can be sure
they are continuing Indias intellectual tradition.
http://www.indianscience.org/essays/t_es_agraw_kerala.shtml

When a Jagadish Chandra Bose conducted experiments in the 19th Century he
furthered Indias scientific tradition...
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITbose.htm

This history can be used as examples for which a new generation of Indians can be
encouraged to make more progress in science and philosophy.