Universities As Brand Names

Dear Anila, your article is too generalized to be taken seriously. I currently am studying at an undergraduate level at the University of Houston. What I will tell you is that the professors here are always very eager to try out their research on the students. Our mathematics professor would always bring in elements of his research into the lectures. Far from being uninterested in teaching, the professors are reluctant to let us go at the end of class!
This being the situation in a second tier university, I would assume that the Ivy League schools do way much better for their students. I would also think that the best test of the credibilty of anything is time. Most US schools, the better ones, have been at the top consistently. Would`nt one think that if the students were getting a rotten deal, as you say, out of these schools year after year after year, they would learn better than to go there?
And the point of college is to apply more of yourself rather than relying mostly on faculty. The libraries filled with sixty to eighty thousand books is for you, the student, to look through. Case in point is the library at UH. If one refuses to think by themselves, or refuse to apply themselves, than critical thinking is a distant dream far from reachable.
One last thing. About the high paying jobs and all. Hate to burst your bubble, but most of the students out there choose to spend a tenth or so of their lives in college is with the hope that after graduating, they will have a good job, a secure lifestyle and food on the table. Very few people go to school to be better people. And it is not the learning institutions fault that a graduate can not find a job. Atleast not to the extents you say. When an economy goes down people lose jobs, but if you look at it carefully, the most educated go the last. And I hope you are not implying that just because the economy is cyclical we might as well just sit tight and not put ourselves through the trouble of college. I dont think you are though.
The second rate MBA`s and BBA`s you are talking about come out of these make shift schools we find nowadays in Pakistan. All those little IT schools with no other intention than to make money are the ones that have created the glut in the Pakistani IT industry. If only the government had stricter standards of education, these little schools wouldnt have come up, which would have meant that an IT degree would hold more value and command a higher pay. And please dont give me this crao about the point of school being more than a better paying job. If people really believed that, religious schools and schools of thought would be the craze and not technical colleges and Ivy League busness programs.
Although I do think that your article is too generalized and lacking research and evidence, I won`t say you`re downright lying. You must have had the worst college experience. I feel for you. But all I know is after I am done with my education and I am standing at a Ferrari dealership looking at the 360 Coupe and the 360 Convertible, debating which one I wanna buy, I can just say, `hey Ahmed, you`re filthy rich bro, buy both of em`. Therefore, I pray that I can get into Stanford for my Masters degree.

Charlie,

I guess the problem with the education is more systemic than anything. The
system in Pakistan (I assume, going by the Indian system ) does not encourage
critical thinking and innovation. The way the exams are set up, all one needs to
do is study by rote. The overall system in the US is unquestionably better.

Of course, this does not preclude motivated individuals from Pakistan to do
very well.

malik99 #16,

You have chosen incompatible extremes to prove your point. A more realistic
comparison would be one where you pitch, let`s say, an MIT graduate against
one from a good Engineering state school (say, University of Michigan). The brand
name disparity, even though present, wouldn`t dictate the choice there. Even
for MBA recruitments, I would assume that the there are lots of second-tier
business schools that don`t look so bad when compared to the big names.

I think the genius of the North American system is not so much that it has the
Harvards and the MITs, but that there are scores of universities that carry
out perfectly respectable research and turn out solid students.

for malik99:
I believe that what Zainub is describing applies very well to the biomedical departments at several US universities. As I understand, you are not familiar with biomedical research. The educational environment for physical or engineering sciences as well as business and law are entirely different from that of health sciences.
Several peers of mine are postdocing at Whitehead MIT, Cornell, Northwestern, Mayo Rochester, etc. And the situation for an average graduate student there is not very educationally beneficial. Post docs benefit from the name of the lab, but sometimes that is not enough. Many very well funded labs do not want their postdocs to write for grants or design experiments, and eventually the postdoc ends up working as a technician. On the other hand, medium sized to smaller labs encourage their postdocs to write grant proposals etc, which is one of the most valuable skills a researcher can have. However, you cannot generalize this to all universities.

I don`t plan to discuss biases here as this story started when I found your comments extremey biased in your first post.

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Carlie, Your first post reflects your biases. If all was so well, why the hell has India 1990 onwards overtaken us fair and square in all fields?

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India started overtaking us very long ago. At the time, when indians started going abroad for higher studies. They settled themselves, they got good position in best universities and best comapnies of silicon valley. Afer 30/35 years , when they had won a lot of influence there, they started bringing projects to their homeland.

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As regards Dr. Ata, well thanks to him for his IT begins and ends with the internet bandwitdhs.
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and all other questions?

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So, you want to get up one day early in the morning and want to be surprised to know that we have become the best in the world within a single night. :)

Do you want to see the difference?
Didn`t S& T budget incxreased many times.
Aren`t we producinging more and more PhD`s every year?
What about those a dozen type of scholarships announced by the MoST and HEC on which thousands of students are going abroadfor studies?
What about bringing the foreign qualified faculty inside the coiuntry by offering them goiod salaray packages? Visit and see HEC. You will come to know a lot of new projects being launched.
What about updation and creation of newer labs in each university. I know atleast 10 new labs being established at UET and a big national library being formed there alongwith an autonomous software house which plans to generate its own revenues.

Atleast being a student and directly concerned with the opportunities for science and technoogy student, i have a lot of confidence in whathe has been doing. It is not only me but all of y batch felows , seniors and juniors are satisfied. I remember the sitation of 4/5 years before when due to laziness of clerks at MoST office, most of the scholarships used to remain un-utilised.

Imagine, The people (Almost one thousand till now) who are doing PhD abroad and will come back within next few years according to the bonds they have signed, willn`t it bring a positive change in te environment here.

Being pessimist and crying over spilt milk is useless. There is no magic stick to solve our problems. everything takes time.

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I am involved with a private sector University at the highest level and striving to make it amongst the best

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Oh! I understand. I hope you prove yourself capable enough of breaking stereotypes. If atta is declared failed because he was unable to make every university of pakistan as good as harvard in last five years, let me see how succesful you prove to be makingyour university among the best ones in the world after let`s say five years. :)


lastly,
Whenever, I got bad marks in matric or FSc or engineering, I always wept a lot and always declared that it was the teachers who marked the paper so bad or it is our ``ratta system`` for which me: the great genius is not suitable. Buss kia karaian jee! Sara system he kharab hay.
Now It seems funny to me. Everybody who is not capable enough to comete always claims that game is not fair or system is bad or I am superior than the system. After all it is difficult to accept own faults.

US education is affordable for most Americans one way or the other. Calling it expensive is not right. It sounds expensive because of poor standard of living in Pakistan and lower value of Pakistani currency. It takes lakhs of rupees to pay for one year expensive for an undergrad because it takes 60 rupees to buy one dollar. Blame it on Pakistan rather than USA for costing more than one million rupees to convert into 20 thousand dollars. The perceptiion of getting education worth more than one million rupees is quite different than getting education worth 20 thousand dollars for an American. A freshman coming from Pakistan and taking 100 level couses such as basic algebra, American History and swimming or Tennis for a cool million rupees does sound very expensive. Try raising the value of rupee because USA is not going to make it cheap for the sake of foreign students. Amercian schooling is meant for American students first.

No matter what you say, a bacheolar degree holder from USA is lot more confident than a bacheolar or Masters degree holder from Pakistan although in bookish knowledge both might be the same. Hardly any job requires full application of diverse and detailed education one gets. The education is acquiring knowlege specific whereas job is productivity specific. There is only one area where two equally qualified individuals, one Ph.D. from USA and another from Pakistan could perform equally and that is teaching. Outside teaching almost all jobs require various other kind of skills, which are learned through association, experience and environment rather than learning in class.

This debate overlooks the most important factor wrt brand name universities. The friendships one makes at these universities increases your odds of doing well(whatever that means) in your chosen career. Odds are that someone you`ve befriended at such a university will end up running Mckinsey or as the Finance minister of Mexico. These folks will not necessarily help you in your career but make you want to do better. Its difficult to envision oneself as a CEO when most people around you want a simple paycheck.

aloudsky:

If your twins really want to go and you can afford it, its well worth it.

later
-sac

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Question is, why is branding important? It is important because it gives assurance of a certain standard quality of product. If I am a recruiter at an investment bank and I am getting 10,000 resumes for a particular job, a Harvard resume would give me a certain assurance about the traits of the candidate even before i meet him. Compare this with a graduate of say, Eastern Wyoming University. I would have to invest a lot more time and effort to get to know his/her suitability for the job.

Besides, lets look at it from faculty`s angle. If I am a professor of immense credentials, I would be more tempted to be associated with a university with deep pockets, similarly bright professors, as well as better prospect of picking up bright students to help in my research. Not to mention that aligning with Stanford University would give me a wider exposure (and authenticty) in my field than say, if I am associated with Northern Alaska Technical University.

Having earned technical and business degrees from US universities and worked with alumni of Ivy league universities, I can make this observation: when it comes to business / law / humanities / social sciences / arts fields, it really helps a great deal if one is from a brand name university. Skills in these fields are not easily viewable/measureable (unlike technical skills) and hence it is not necessarily what you learned in university that is important, but the fact that you were ``brought up`` in that environment that makes the sale.

As for the technical education, I am a bit hesitant to put too much faith in Ivy league education. From a recruiter`s perspective, it is very easy to judge the skills of a technical candidate. The skills of an average computer science graduate of Eastern Dakota University will not be too much different from the skills of an average MIT computer science graduate - if they are both looking for a job in Microsoft. However, since we live in a biased world, an MIT graduate will raise more admiring eyebrows (and the benefit of doubt in job offers) than a graduate of Southwest Alabama State University.

Further to my previous post, I should also mention that having a brand name university not just helps in the fields of investment banking, law, and high research, it also helps where it really matters

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mating.

A peacock dances endlessly to attract a female while spreading his colorful feathers. A brand name university adds color to the feathers of human male. Females, who eternally look for a strong man who can comfortably provide material and other protection for their offsprings, prefer the colors of brand name university on their males. It adds assurance of a continued paycheck.

Male graduates of Northwestern Montana State University do not fare to well in this eternal mating dance with male graduates of Yale :)

Carlie, Your first post reflects your biases. If all was so well, why the hell has India 1990 onwards overtaken us fair and square in all fields?

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``If 1 % elite, trying to be known as the elightened ones by speaking a couple of sentences in english with an odd accent tries to prove himself superior being, I can`t do anything but feel pity for him.``

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This reflects your biases all the way.

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I am sure you didn`t attend a good university in Pakistan. Did you ?

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Well I attended University of Cambridge, National University of Modern Languages and Qaid e Azam University. I am on the faculty list of QAU. As if not enough, I am involved with a private sector University at the highest level and striving to make it amongst the best. I want to introduce INCLUSIVENESS and breakout of the stereotypes.

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As regards Dr. Ata, well thanks to him for his IT begins and ends with the internet bandwitdhs.
What has he done to bring up the National Institute of Silicon Technology?
What standard changes has `Pakistan Standard Institution, National Physical Standard Laboratories, Central Test Laboratories, Pakistan Council for Scientific & Industrial Research strengthened`` brought in the country.
Well the only worthy water management project in Choolistan was done by me at a huge personal financial loss.
Name any IT institution under his auspices that has earned forex or competed with international companies.
Yes there are catchwords to attract funding, spend it on feasibilitiesa nd end up with half finished products.
I`ll end it here.

as a former attendee of a brand name us university I think the information and analysis in this article is quite true.

Those Pakistanis who can afford to send their children to us for higher education should do a thorough research before committing their children to a university here. There are several books available that guide ``US students`` as to what to look for in a university before making up your mind. With internet at hand such research shoudn`t be a problem. Do not go by the ``promotional literature`` that universities publish

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Having joined professional studies in universities, A level students feel handicapped. To score a good GPA, they have to adapt to cramming. Some students due to the sheer strenght of their evolved personalities refuse to compromise and de educate themselves. Ultimately the system vomits them or they end up through tranfer credits in some North Americain University.

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WRONG.
By this paragraph, you are trying to prove ``everything black``. It is not the case.
I am sure you didn`t attend a good university in Pakistan. Did you ?

Secondly, you are trying to prove that A level students have superior personalities than Matric, FSc students. It is just a form of complex. I can show you thousand of students coming out of same educational system, proving them the best in the world. Most of them hold the best positions in the most pretigious places in the world. Do I need to give you a few names ? Best researchers, I have ever seen, who belong to Pakistan came out of the same educational system.
If 1 % elite, trying to be known as the elightened ones by speaking a couple of sentences in english with an odd accent tries to prove himself superior being, I can`t do anything but feel pity for him.

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Dr. Ata Ur Rehman with his own biases is trying to turn things the other way. Even if he succeeds, which I hope he does not, things will be even worse.

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I am sorry to say that you don`t have the slightest idea what has been happening in pakistan so far. Just a summary to tell you what he did and how it will bring changes in future, Here are some of the things he did.

Under the IT & Telecom Division,152 projects worth more than Rs. fifteen billion have been launched so far by the IT and Telecom Division. The major achievements are:


During the period Scientific and Technological Research Division approved and launched 152 projects amounting to Rs. 12 billion for the acceleration of Scientific and Technological capacity building and for rapid, sustainable growth. This represents a major step forward towards building an indigenous R&D capability and knowledge-based economy for Pakistan.

?PhD output increased from 60 per annum to 400 per annum through indigenous PhD, merit scholarship, split PhD, and teachers and researchers overseas scholarship schemes with an amount of more than Rs. 2 billion.
?Postdoctoral fellowship programme launched with an amount of Rs. 1 billion to help teachers and researchers update their knowledge.
?PhD allowance increased to Rs. 5000 per month.
?Research productivity allowance introduced and amounts of Rs. 50 million disbursed amongst scientists on the basis of research productivity.
?Under the maintenance and repair of laboratory equipment programmes equipment worth about 2.80 billion has been repaired.
?Project for Mitigation of Drought Disaster in Cholistan Desert launched.
?National water quality monitoring programme encompassing 21 cities, 8 reservoirs and five rivers launched.
?Labs and laboratories of 27 universities strengthened. Each university received an amount between Rs. 37 million to 39 million.
?Twenty-eight projects amounting to Rs. 434 million aiming at value addition to agricultural products and creating a technology oriented environment launched under Science and Technology for Economic Development Programme. These projects are being initiated in collaboration between public sector research institutions and industry under public/private sector partnership.
?National Commission on Biotechnology established. 21 project worth Rs. 415 million approved in biotechnology area.
?52 outdated curricula of universities updated.
?Pakistan Standard Institution, National Physical Standard Laboratories, Central Test Laboratories, Pakistan Council for Scientific & Industrial Research strengthened.
?ISO standards adopted as Pakistan standards.
?Pakistan National Accreditation Council (PNAC) helped 3000 Pakistani companies acquire ISO 9000 certification.
?Renewable Energy Commission formed.
?Legal, administrative, structural and financial re-structuring of R&D organizations approved by the Cabinet.


Even the first point mentioned above is what can be considered a very big achievement by Atta. He has been leading one of the best labs of chemistry research in the world and he knows how to produce good results as far as science and technology is concerned.

acloudysky #10 While you are correct in pointing out that sending your twins to a good university is part of a bigger package, you overestimate how big the package is. That is, a good name university may almost assure them of a good START in the job market, and it may at times come in handy in later life - that is all you does. I have seen Harvard MBAs and people graduating from top notch British Universities who have proved to be utter failures either in their professional lives, and/or or in their personal lives.

So dont be too smug about your would-be ivy league kids. The question is: did you teach them good values when they were in kindergarten? Your snotty references to training in ``car maintenance`` indicates that you may be a bit challenged in the values department - and if this rubbed off on your twins, then you may have already laid the seeds for future failure (either personally or professionally). And talking of car mechanics, I have seen a fellow in the US who got a start getting their hands dirty as car mechanics, and after some years of hard, honest work, became successful businessmen who could hire Harvard MBAs.

Sorry if this deflates your balloon a bit. But these are the hard facts of life. There is no easy ticket to success, and an ivy league education does not assure anything other than a better shot at a good starting job.

Anila Zainub,

i`m a mother of a pair of twins. they are in grade 11 and have received admissions at north american universities. however, after reading your article i`ve been thinking on what is to be done. there are a few things i would like to ask you so that i can come to a sound conclusion regarding their future.

``The faculty maybe more knowledgeable but they lack good teaching skills.``

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>acha? how do you know? have you travelled to all the ivy league schools personally?
and if not all, please tell me how many? would also like to know how you reached this conclusion?

``An education is supposed to create a critical thinker. Someone who can live his/her life better than before in more than one way and brings about some measure of change in the lives of others. Is this belief a utopia? I have been told, ‘yes’. But refusing to look at the glass as half empty, I still believe that education can do more than secure a high paying job and upward mobility. ``

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>but i thought a high paying job, upward social mobility and intellectual thinking are all part of the same package; education. should i start sending them to the local workshop for training in car maintenance then? atleast they`ll be exercising their mental powers to the hilt when working on a totally smashed car.

anxiously awaiting your reply. my children have to leave in august!!

thank you

Shanghai Jiao Tong University Institute of Higher Education did a survey of best 500 universities in the world a few months ago. the criteria was not based on ``Brand Name`` or ``Status symbol`` etc. Criteria was purely based on academic or research performance, including Nobel laureates, highly cited researchers, articles published in Nature and Science, articles in Science Citation Index-expanded and Social Science Citation Index, and academic performance per faculty.

Out of Top Fifty universities, based on this criteria, 37 were North Amereican, only two of them outside US.

Harvard, Stanford and Caltech earned first three slots.
University of California berkeley was 4th while Cambridge stood at 5th being best university in the world outside US.

In europe, Best univertsities were from England, Switzerland, France, Netherlands, Germany.

In Asia, Japan stood first with most of its university rated in top 50 or hundred. Tokyo and Kyoto University being the best two.

About Muslim world, Only two turkish universities made in top 500 hundred. No Pakistani University was ranked among them.

Indian Inst Sci India ranked below 250 was the best in India. Two other Indian universitries being IIT Dehli and IIT Kharagpur ranked after 450 +.

This ranking was approved by many researchers and in France and European Research commisiion has called for emergency lift in the research activities. It made a wave of unrest among researchers who found only 24 universities in the list ranked very much below to the other developed countries. Since that time, I have been seeing researchers urging the government to increase fubds for research and to establishment of newer centres of advanced tecnologies.

here is the link to the survey:

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/rank-2003.mht

Anila - Having gone through an undergraduate degree in computer engineering, a graduate degree in computer engineering, and an MBA (all from different universities in US), I can assure you that the situation in US universities does not bear much resemblance to your article. Most of the professors who came along in my university life were very energetic teachers and had a keen interest in making sure that they were respected in the student community as capable teachers.

Despite their shortcomings, American universities academically, intellectually, and otherwise provide a far better learning environment than any country in the world.