To Die For.....the War at Wana

Feroz, you said:

Quote:
The army in Pakistan is becoming increasingly middle classed oriented and soon, it will change the equation of power from feudal based to a technocratic-middle class. Musharraf is the first COAS from a middle class family and also, the first Urdu speaking COAS. Musharraf has humble background and so does most of his ``kitchen cabinet``.``
End Quote:

My point was that the Army is already (at best) lower middle class and was never really feudal and certainly by no stretch after 1971. Zia and Pervez Musharraf (and Ayub Khan but his influence is long gone) will have been the longest serving Army Chiefs/Head of State and these two will have done the most to mold/shape the character of the Army. The Army may have had a de facto alliance with the `feudals`` to rule the country but it was never ``feudal`` dominated itself. The Army has always been `technocratic`` in the sense that it hires technocrats to run the economy for it (e.g., Ishrat Husan and Shaukat Aziz now; Sartaj Aziz and Mahbubul Haq under Zia) but there is no chance of it brining about a ``technocratic middle class.`` That is just so much wishful thinking. The essential nature of the Army changed a long time ago and that didn`t make things any better for Pakistan. As Romair said, the Army Sword of Honor winner he knew spoke ``Paindu`` English and this one will stay in and become a general because he hasn`t too many other alternative in this Pakistan. No one is going to give him a job with ICI or Standard Chartered.

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Wajahat:55
A very good post.

I would have missed it was it not for fuziair`s ``typical`` `joke`[post #75]. No joke this. The kalloo goraagoochaater has estabished his love for the colonisers and has expressed his ardent pride of his enslavement in the past as well.

Islam will visit where-ever such kind reside or hide. Another opportunity to rub it in:

Ubb tera kyaa hoga kalia

Islam: The next American Religion?

ahmedzai
PS to #68
``Is the government/MMA really applying its mind to flush out Al Qaeda or is merely buying time from US pressure? ``

If the Pakistani Army/MMA are indeed merely playing for time and playing a `tactical` double game on the US while the Pakistani public watches -

IMO it is worth realising for your own sakes that the Army/MMA have the fun of playing this double game with the US ONLY until the next terrorist attack on the US. Even if Bin Laden is not directly responsible for the next terrorist attack on the US, if he is still on Pakistani territory at that time, US military retaliation will most likely be aimed at Pakistani territory.

If they are indeed playing such a double game to save their friends, the MMA and their establishment patrons are only putting their nations public in greater danger.

Re: Wajahat`s #55

Actually, I was trying to make a joke but I guess you didn`t see it. Maybe I should have put in a little winky face.

;-)

Please add that to the lines you found so objectionable and accept my apologies.

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Romair

No one is stopping me to go back to Pakistan but it is much better to AmreekiyoN ke, tumhare, aur tum jaise ghulamoN ke seenay peh maung dalna while sitting in the belly of the beast. I am raising the Kalima-e-Haq in front of genocidal biggots standing right in their own courtyard. Ain`t I risking a trip to Gitmo? Now how is that hypocritical. I will say the same thing if I lived in Timbaktu though it would have taken me a little while to see the real face behind the masquerade that these people play with rest of the world.

#43 by hossp on March 22, 2004 10:22pm PT

echobum! Repeat after me. The correct dialog:
Ubb tera kiya ho ga kalia?
Repeat this verbatim and say it umpteenth time like you do with the Quran, w/o using your head too often!!!!
Damn! this cheesehead can`t even remember what his brother said in the movie!!!!

---

O Kaalia: Thanks for the correct version. You see I DID repeat it. I didn`t see the movie.
Thanks for the opportunity so that those who missed the previous post can now read it.

Here is the correct version , according to one Kalia himself``
Ubb tera kya ho ga Kalia*?
* Kaaliaas at chowk: Nazarhayatkhan, Hamidm,hossp, ferozeK

Islam: The next American Religion?

Urstruly #64: ``I am sitting in US because I was conned into believing what America is not. I was cheated. They beguiled me. But for the simple fact that I live here, I wont accept contract money on the heads of my own people. And I wont accept it even if I leave the country.``

This is all a bunch of hot air. You sound like Ahmad Chalabi, and the other quacks who sit in the USA, benefit from it, and cry tears for their homeland.

You are sitting in the USA because you want to make money. That is it. And unlike most Pakistanis, who accept this, you are trying to hide it, by acting as the ultimate Muslim Mujahid.

Choor ki dari mein tinka.......

Who is stopping you from going back to Pakistan and becoming a taxi-driver or doing an odd job. Or participating in freedom struggles. Those guys will even pay for your food and shelter. Who is stopping you from moving to some other country (Saudi Arabia, Canada etc.), even if you have to do so illegally?

How in the world can anyone be conned into believing what America is, or is not? Who beguiled you? What a bunch of nonsensical hot air. Why go to the USA, in the first place? Are you seriously suggesting you were unaware of the USA`s links with countries and causes you blame to be evil, before you moved there?

And haven`t you now realized the situation. You must have, since you are front and center in pointing these actions out to everyone. Yet you still sit in the USA. Why don`t you leave now? Why not go to Saudi Arabia or to Pakistan and earn an honest day`s salary?

I left the USA, when I got tired of all these double-standards. Why don`t you leave? Are you a coward? I can now say whatever I want with a clear conscious, because, unlike you, my tax money is no longer going to support causes that I oppose.

Everytime you pay taxes, you are contributing to the violence against Muslims that you accuse others off. Everytime you buy cheap gasoline at a gas station, you are benefiting from the crimes that you accuse the USA of in controlling the Middle East.

It is one thing to live in the USA patriotically, and support all of the USA`s foreign policy escapades. That may be wrong, but at least, it is not hypocrisy. It is another to criticize it, yet benefit from it.

Perhaps the next place you should move to is India. Then you can sit there, work there, pay taxes there, and heavily criticize India also. After that you should apply for a work vis to Israel. Benefit from the Israeli system, and criticize them, as well.

You are truly, the Ahmad Chalabi of Pakistan.

huma_mir at # 60:

I was referring to the last para of your post that was addresed to urstruly. It reminded me of the venomous anti-Pakistani posts by extremist fundoo Indoos on this board.

;-)

ahmadzai #51
``Btw, you forgot to mention that MMA is the `B` team of the Government too (wink). ``

Yep. That means the Pakistan government and MMA have Bin Laden and Zawahiri and their Arab contingent safe somewhere else.

Meanwhile it appears a number of clueless Pakistanis are running around like headless chicken insisting upon the birthright of Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan to defend their heavily armed fortresses in S. Waziristan.

And noone is asking where are Zawahiri and Bin Laden and why isn`t the Army looking for them more actively, though it is highly likely that they are hiding within Pakistani tribal areas or Balochistan or elsewhere within Pakistani territory.

Noone seems to be discussing, does the Pakistani nation really wish to shield Zawahiri and Laden and their associated Arabs from the US till the last? Is the government/MMA really applying its mind to flush out Al Qaeda or is merely buying time from US pressure?

I don`t know whether to be puzzled at all this obfuscation or not.

#42 nazarhayatkhan

I cannot refute or disagree with any thing in your post. Nevertheless, Was the Pakistani govt not aware of it too? I had mentioned in my post that Pakistan govt is fully aware of what goes on in the tribal area.
“the Pakistan govt knows fully what is going on in the tribal area. It has a network of informers in the area and deep relations with all sardars, maliks, and people right in the heart of the tribal belt. So please don’t assume that the fed govt in Pakistan is naïve or simple.”-hossp #28

Particularly after the US attacks on Afghanistan the tribal belt is under the microscope. It is not that these foreigners just appeared on the scene from nowhere. They were allowed to build their strength for two years. The ammo that they had was not airdropped to them. It traveled thru the railroads and truck links mostly thru the Pakistani territory. Now please don’t tell me that the tribal manufacture sophisticated weaponry that can be used in pitched battle with the regular well-equipped Pakistani army.

The Bulletproof Land cruisers and the small flatbeds are not manufactures in the tribal belt they have traveled thru the legal Pakistan territory to get to the tribal areas and eventually to terrorists. It is not a matter of focusing on one issue; it is a matter of understanding the conditions behind the issue. Devil is in the details.

This may be unconfirmed news but we learnt thru the media that Bulletproof Land cruiser was allowed to take its passengers to somewhere. The Pakistan Army surrounds an area and the US is maintaining vigilance over the air and a Land cruiser disappears into mostly non-asphalt or most likely unpaved surface without being challenged by anybody??? Just who is kidding whom??

We still don’t know how many of them were actually foreigners. Nothing more will unfold. This news will die in a couple of more days as it has served its purpose.

Khan Sahib, I would assume that people should ask questions before blaming the poor hillbillies.

People do get caught up in the hype. We are all guilty of that at different times. Still it does not hurt to question the intents when there is overwhelming evidence that something else was cooking.

The US admin is irate due to questions about its incompetence. The Iraq situation is getting out of hand. This US admin needs to make good news and the Pakistan govt obliges by providing some dead bodies and fake news about “high value” target. Was it a pure coincidence that Aaron Brown of CNN just happened to be there when Pakistan decided to go in Wana. Aaron Brown normally would not travel with Colin Powel, unless he was promised big news or may be he was also part of the subterfuge.

This may be speculation on my part but often with the little knowledge that we have thru the media, we can only do as much. Right or wrong only time would tell.

nazarhayatkhan #42: I tend to agree with you. I think Pakistan needs to decide its own priorities, independent of everyone else.

At the same time, I think it does need to be kept in mind that the whole, ``situation`` in Afghanistan, and related tribal areas, did not just appear from thin air. There are many culprits.

1) The Soviets: they invaded a helpless country, which was of no threat to them, and started off this whole process of destabilization of Afghanistan. Before them, Afghanistan was like any third-world country.

2) USA: It found a good way to create the Soviet`s Vietnam in Afghanistan. And kept the flames of the war burning, by funding maddrassahs and becoming the biggest financier and trainer of jihadists.

I even recall Sylvestor Stallone dressing up as a Mujahid in a Rambo movie. I also recall a James Bond movie, in which a shalwar-kameez clad James Bond fights alongside an Oxford educated Mujahid leader.

Now the same shalwar-kameez is a ticket to Guantanomo bay, for fighting without a uniform.

3) Afghan warlords: These people have destroyed their own country. In fact, the Taliban were actually supported by the local Afghanis, when they removed these warlords. Unfortunately, the USA has now installed the exact same warlords into power, through the Northern Alliance. And is doing all it can to support them in power. So their is bound to be trouble in the future.

4) Pakistan: It has greatly helped the Afghanis, by assisting them in liberating their country. And most of all by accepting 3 million refugees, when no other country is willing to take even 300 refugees.

Yet it has also interfered greatly in the internal affairs of Afghanistan, through Taliban etc.

5) OBL: His organization has used Afghanistan as a homebase, and has in the process destroyed the country. What kind of Muslim destroys another Muslim for his own gain?

6) Saudis: They heavily financed the who Jihadist agendas

Other smaller culprits include India (for supporting the Soviet invasion wholeheartedly, and for supporting the Norhtern Alliance thugs, presently).

So the tribals are only aspect of the problem. By blaming them solely for this whole situation, we are conveniently allowing everyone else to get away without blame.

Romair

I am sitting in US because I was conned into believing what America is not. I was cheated. They beguiled me. But for the simple fact that I live here, I wont accept contract money on the heads of my own people. And I wont accept it even if I leave the country. The case in point is you - the people like you have paanchoN ghee maiN and sar karahi maiN no matter where you live. And why would people like you not love dictators - you belong to the class whose files never stop in offices; for traffic violations you get salutes instead of a ticket; for your sick you have CMHs; clean water; free housing; free education; free transport; you have jobs even after you retire and free asses to kick around of the bipeds who live in ``your`` country when your sadist self feels like it. Why would you want a rule of law, a constitutional government and accountability in Pakistan. People like you have your America right in paksitan. Why would you want to change that. America is playing butter and stick game in Pakistan - for people like you and the class you belong to there is butter and for rest stick shoved up... I don`t blame you for loving your butter. But I beg you to look at the unfortunate who are being crushed.