To Die For.....the War at Wana

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I agree with Romair, Nazar and Ahmadzai. Hoiwever, this is a short term solution and the government will have to follow up with a developmental strategy.
Please read my post on `socio economic development`:
http://www.chowk.com/show_forum_topic_post_list.cgi?tid=00007330


#3 Musharraf Will Die on March 19, 2004
Pakistan`s tribal areas are in a sort of Arabisation that we saw in Afghanistan during the Taliban. The quicker we rid them the better. I tend to agree with the post by Firzok on the tribal areas.

The President of Pakistan is a prime target and the militants will pursue it relentlessly. This is a serious situation and I hope that the security staff is fully and imaginatively alive to it.

Despite a child of opportunity, Mussarraf is leading the way purposefully. He has challenged the status quo which no one ever could. He needs to stay long enough and beyond to ensure that the shifts in the policy become enduring.

#14 The Spring Initiative on March 12, 2004
I agree with the author. USA through hobnobbing with the northern alliance and indiscrimiately killing pashtuns as Taliban has aggravated Pakistan`s security environment.

US, that was the biggest critic of Afghan heroin passing through Pakistan ignored that Taliban eradicated it. Now right under the nose of the coalition forces, Afghanistan is the biggest producer of heroin in the world.

They also on inaccurate intelligence, eliminated the only secular country (Iraq) in the Arab world.

The tales of Pashtuns suffering from daisy cluster bombs are gory and frightful. There was just no reagrd for human life, sex or age. Pashtun Afghans have paid dearly for what OBL did.

Believe it or not, there is a rise of Pashtun ethno-religious nationalism that may not auger well for Pakistan. War on terror is becoming a war of hate.
#19 A New Identity on March 7, 2004
Here is a reproduction of my previous interact. Thats how I feel.

#13 Pakistan under its Ethnic Shadows on November 20, 2003
Well I feel that the geographical entity as a STATE (Pakistan) came easier said than done. It is the psychological approximate of nation, nationhood or nationism, whatever you may call it that is still evolving.

Pakistan has to be seen as an amalgam of various ethnic groups whose roots seldom overlap. The Punjab is largely Matriarchal society, that taking a que from Nazar Khan`s article has produced more romantic heroes than leaders and rulers. Though it has the largest majority, it is also the most flexible and compliant. NWFP is a largely patriarchal society with a very strong sense of tribal identity, though it has always remained at the cross roads of invasions. The sense of being Pathan is very strong and outlives petty tribal differences specially when they have to live outside the frontier. Both Baloch and Sindies (majority are of Baloch descent) are fiercely independent and have their common hero in Mir Chakkar Khan Rind. However they remain in the clutches of the worst type of tyranny in the Sardari system. In some remote areas like NokChah in Balochistan, most people have not seen Pakistan beyond the nearest water hole. On all peripheries, the hold of the tribal and feudal chiefs is final. Somehow I feel that Pakistan`s Mahattir will come from Sindh or Balochistan. I also feel that the word Muhajir is an insult to the concept of Pakistaniat.

However, there is a brighter aspect. All major towns and cities are distinctively Pakistani and there is a very strong sense of the Pakistaniat. This is particularly true of our cricket that has played the most significant role in inculcating nationalism. I have seen kids as far away as Taftan, Amri and Suntser playing cricket and trying to become Imran Khans and Miandads.

Political elites and the Government of Pakistan have thus far failed to transfer the seeds of modernity and modernisation in such areas in particular and rest of the country in general. I wonder, if the state has the capacity to reform the society. It is therefore time for the private sectors to step in for the socio economic development leading to societal fusion. Human resource development at grass roots will usher a new era of complementary cooperation while overriding irritants.

Herein lies the future of our generations.
#22 General Musharraf – Caught Between a Rock and a Hard Place on February 6, 2004
Dear AhmadZai, on your long treatise on the various heads, here is a a line from a poem written by me.

Mera Raquib merey endher hai
Mera wajood mera dushman hai
Mein apney aap sey jang mein hoon
Meri halat merey watan si hai

I feel the biggest monster is ourselves,preventing the conglomerate from fermenting into a nation. There is too much hate, suspicion and self vulnerability in our assesments. We have to get out of it.

I would list the indicaters as;
1) Socio economic development on a fast track.
2) Political stability that ensures policy consistency and achievement of 1.
3) Dispensation of justice and social equity to the masses, a sense of well being.
4) Gradual erosion of the elites
Once these come, issues like sectarianism, violence, ethnicity and overbearing attitude of some states would wither away. Lets forget about Ummah and Co and just look after ourselves. It would be Highway to heaven.

#29 by ijaz_gul on March 14, 2004 2:03am PT
Zakk, Please be carefull when you shed your knowledge on contentious matters. We may be doing more harm tha good to our country.

Small businesses in the developed world are still not taxed. The governments are content that they provide employment and that`s their contribution.

USA economy was bulit on the enterprising nature of the gutsy settlers and there was no real documentation till after the crash of 1930.

There is a sizable industry now located in the tribal belt, producing textile, silk, leather, perfumes, electronic consumer items, crockery etc. The government should declare a tax holiday to these areas for ten years and see how Pakistan grows. At the same time smuggling will decrease and the people will be involved in a healthy economic competition that will ferment nationalism.
I am convinced.

I AGREE THAT THOUGH INTROSPECTION IS A BEST APPRAISAL. THERE IS A SHARP LINE BETWEEN IT AND NEGATIVE CRITICISM. LETS DISCUSS OPTIONS FOR A DEVELOPED PAKISTAN. DEVELOPMENT ITSELF WILL FORGE HARMONY. THATS A LONG TERM SOLUTION.

I think Pakistanis have finally found their punching bag..it is the tribal belt......the FATA WATA guys..... that is stuck in the 16th century while madrassas in karachi and lahore have moved the rest of the cuntry forward to the 22nd century. No need to close madrassas, no need to control religious nuts..let us reform the jahil tribals and everything will be hunkie dorie.

dont you think you guys are getting little too hard on these folks?

diggi khotay ton te gussa khumeyaar te.
panga payea mulleyaN te bunD kutto PathaanaN di.

Hossp # 28

(Try to think about OBL grievance with the US and the Saudi regime to grasp the situation. Killing the poor hillbillies is just a smokescreen)

By mixing too many issues, we tend to lose the focus. We are not debating that the Saudis are the prime culprits. We are also not debating that US is after oil or it should not have gone into Iraq as it went. We are also not debating that Musharraf is a gift from God or the Pakistan Army has the innocence of the boy scouts.

Simply put, this tribal area has been a heaven for smugglers, outlaws, Jihadis and you name it. This area has made an industry out of these ventures. Even Pakistan and Afghan Governments have been bribing them to keep peace with them. Pakistan Government kept looking the other way on the smuggling issue because it considered it their only source of earning.

But this latest twist of sheltering armed foreigners to launch hostile acts, on religious basis, within and outside Pakistan simply can not be ignored. If Al Qaida can be caught from Karachi, Lahore, Faisalabad, Pindi - why not from Waziristan.

The civilians were told to vacate the area. Majority of the tribes themselves do not like the presence of these foreigners. They have held Jirgas and even made their own Lashkar to flush the foreigners out. But these Foreigners, in connivance of one small tribe, have become ``dadageers`` in the area of whom even the other tribes are scared.

So the people that we are talking about are not hillibillies - they have killed over 30 soldiars, have grenades, telephone exchange, bomb making equipment, rockets, long tunnels ..........

The story is still unfolding.

echobum! Repeat after me. The correct dialog:

Ubb tera kiya ho ga kalia?

Repeat this verbatim and say it umpteenth time like you do with the Quran, w/o using your head too often!!!!

Damn! this cheesehead can`t even remember what his brother said in the movie!!!!

re: Romair

Feudals control and rule Pakistan and it will not be easy to get rid of them. They are present in the military, bureaucracy and in the landed powers of Pakistan. Land reforms have always been a joke in Pakistan, because no government has ever taken steps to erdicate the institution of feudalism itself from Pakistan.

However, change will come not because of any governmental policy but simply due to the fact that feudalism is slowly dying out in Pakistan. The younger generation of the feudals are more interested in selling their lands and having the money for a lavish life style in the cities of Pakistan and have no interest in the family lands. Secondly, urbanization is increasing in Pakistan and that process is eating away at the feudal lands and to an extent, reducing the power of the feudals.

Also, the devolution of power has created a political alternative to the feudal and as education is made universial (if it is ever) then awareness will gradually spell the end of feudalism. Sadly, the whole logic of feudalism is so ingrained in Pakistan that it is better to wait for it die out. The end of separate electorates has also lessened the influence of the feudals, but on the national level the old generation of the feudals will have to die out. There is no alternative to this proposition and once they all wither away, the new generation will lose the lands, but the bigger question is will they lose their feudal believes?

For that to happen, elitism in Pakistan has to be ended and replaced with populism. Educating the feudals and hoping for change is useless, because most of them British educated and they still cling to their out moded life styles.

I do not see a vivable future for feudalism in Pakistan by 2050 and as to your other contention, the army operation is the step in the right direction. Remove the sources of feudal power in NWFP, then Baluchistab, Sindh and finally in Punjab and deal with the feudals left in politics as a last step. Gradually, isolate the feudalistic power from its base and soon, it will cease to matter in any significant sense. The army in Pakistan is becoming increasingly middle classed oriented and soon, it will change the equation of power from feudal based to a technocratic-middle class. Musharraf is the first COAS from a middle class family and also, the first Urdu speaking COAS. Musharraf has humble background and so does most of his ``kitchen cabinet``. The majority of the people in the Musharraf government, who hold key portfolios are Urdu speaking people, from families that migrated from India. Their parents were side lined by the Punjabi military-bureaucracy and later exiled by the Sindhi feudals when Z. A. Bhutto nationalized Pakistan. Now, they are coming back to reclaim Pakistan, because they think that triarchy of power in Pakistan has completely destroyed Pakistan; and the work of their parents.

If Musharraf and company read their history, they will follow the policy which the British had adopted for ruling western India. That policy was; honor the Baluch, bribe the Pathan, hang the Sindhi and beat the Punjabi. Jamali the Baluch is being honored by the giving him the office of the prime minister; Pathans like Qazi Hussain Ahmed and MMA are being bribed by offers of sharing political power, the PPP is being killed in Sindh slowly one person at a time and the rest of the provinces are beating Punjab for its unfair share of the economic resources of Pakistan.

On a brutally realistic note, Romair, never in your wildest dreams assume that Pakistan will succeed. Pakistan will continue like this for ever as a yo-yo oscillating between highs and lows and it will exist from one crisis to another but will never escape being haunted by crisis. The testimony of Pakistan`s resilence lies not in its success but in its ability to survive against all odds, most of which are engineered by Pakistanis themselves. Pakistan will never experience true democracy, because our people are more used to the idea of force and strong personalities using force than they are to choice. It will be a blessing of Allah if Pakistan simply exists.

Ciao

Amit:

``If the cause is truly justified, such as defeating Nazism, then war makes sense. .................. The sad fact is that India itself has not lived up to Gandhi`s teachings, but that does not diminish from it. ``

Hmm, maybe you should read up on what Gandhi said about fighting the Nazis as well. Doing nothing in the face of evil is evil as well. Gandhi was a loser who sacrificed his own community, knowing that revered him, to satisfy his giant sized ego.

O Kaliaa*! ubb teraa kyaa banay-gaa?

* Kaaliaas at chowk: Nazarhayatkhan, Hamidm,hossp, ferozeK

Islam: The next American Religion?

#35 Romair - very true. These people `foaming at the mouth` advocate democracy ONLY if it brings their desirables to power.

It is rather un-believable that in 21st century, an educated and aparently enlightened section of our expats lauds and prescribes the murderous actions of a dictator backhome, while they themselves are tucked away in the comfy democracies of west!!!

ahhh! The horror. The horror.

romair asks why some of us think that the vermin should be exterminated ``:Is it because the people who are being killed are not secular?``

.......... the answer is a simple yes - they should be killed for the same reason that sheikh yasin was killed ......... there should be zero tolerance for religious fanatics and their ignorant supporters even if they are unwashed hillbillies with bad teeth fom waziristan or alabama ................ why? ....because if you don`t kill them, they will eventually kill you ......... can they be reformed?.......... what do you think? .......... just take a stroll down the bazaar at dara adam khel or, for that matter, kissa khwani, and tell me if you think these people can be cleaned up and introduced to civil society.......... i doubt it.........

............ sounds harsh?......... maybe

Ahmadzai salamoona : Wazirstan jhagaray dayr afsos khabaray dha chay pukhtuna bya markeezhee Amrika dhay laas.

The same arguments against the invasion of Iraq can be used against the Military operation in FATA. I think it`s a matter of great sadness that the Waziris are paying the price for Pakistans ruling establishments misdeeds.

I read a statistic somewhere that OBL has a 65% popularity ranking in Pakistan. Somewhere else, I read, that 98% of Pakistanis opposed the Iraq war. And the victories by the MMA were based, to a great deal, on opposition to US wars in Afghanistan.

Based on this, what exactly is the democratic opinion, in Pakistan, on Bush, OBL, Al-Qaeda and the operations in Wana? Not the opinion of Chowk expats (will any of them be volunteering to join the Wana operation, after foaming at the mouth, against maulvis, for so long. Will we see hamidm, all suited up, to fight alongside the Army? Or do they expect others to do their dirty work? Are they all talk, and no action?), but those of everyday Pakistanis.

My guess is that a mjority of Pakistanis, if polled, would consider George Bush a bigger threat to Pakistan, than OBL. And they would consider the USA to be a bigger, ``evil-doer`` than the people of Wana - foreign and local.

So anyone who believes in democratic opinions, should oppose the Wana operation.

Similarly, there is no legal basis under which this operation is being carried out. It is, thus, illegal and un-Constitutional. Gunships cannot just go and start bombing villages, because the Americans are tired of fighters attacking the Afghan govt. from these areas. Specifically, since the Afghan govt. is made up as big, or bigger thugs, than those in Wana. Imagine what would happen, if the govt. bombed any non-tribal area. For this operation to be legal, the govt. has to first establish legal rights through courts. To the best of my knowledge that has not been done.

There is no law that I know of in Pakistan, that allows the govt. to unleash gunships against its own citizens or semi-citizens. Infact, it is the job of the Police, and not the Army, to act against such criminals.

Those of us, who never had much faith in Pakistani-styled democracy or in the legal system, can support this operation, since we have followed the same principle before in supporting Musharraf`s extra-constitutional coups, and his banning of other feudal leaders, like BB. But, how in the world can those who regularly speak of Constitutions, and laws, and hate coups and think election after election will solve everything etc. support these extra-Constitutional and illegal operations?

Is it because the people who are being killed are not secular? What if they were secular and were being led by a secular leadership? Would these seem people, support the Army with the same enthusiasm, if it were to go after the secular tribals, who rule over their medieval tribes in the same manner as the those in Wana?

I think this use of military power was un-necessary. Given the low literacy rate, no internet or other sources of ready information in that region, it takes some time for the people in that region to understand geo-political changes. Army should have given some time (a lot of time) to these 400 or so people.

Malik99 - Indeed 400 is such a small number that army could have simlpy surrounded them until they ran out of food. Why use overwhelming and top of the line weaponry against your own citizens is beyond me. And I think this claim by Pakistan that they found a tunnel is simply to give some face saving to Musharraf who suggested that he had zawahiri cornered.

Urstruly: unfortunately you are right regarding making another Kurdistan. If one looks at the map of Pakistan in 1947 and the map in 2004, one realizes that it is an incredibly shrinking country in its merely 56 years of existance! From Kashmir, to Siachin, to Bangladesh, we have lost perhaps 50% of our territory. And now may be western parts of Balochistan (claimed by Iran) and tribal areas (claimed by Afghanistan).

Farheen Zebra fails to count the thousands of Pakistani ``jihadis`` exported to India
and other places. The largest death toll is completely ignored.
But afterall, they were not merely dying ..but going to kill Kafirs and become shaheed.

Still, the useless talk goes on - blaming poverty, blaming feudalism,
blaming bhutto, blaming sharif, blaming US, blaming Israel etc etc

``MMA has rightly decided to dilute the level of demonstrations to stage low-key protests``

The reasons why MMA is not protesting more strongly :

1. The surrounded militants are Uzbeks, who have weak links with MMA constituents(Ahmed Rashid: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-3-2004_pg7_50)

2. This fighting has come several months after the flushing-out process in Waziristan actually began, which gave those real high value targets who ARE supported by the MMA, plenty of time to shift out to other safe areas.