Musharraf Will Die

musharraf is a bad ss of america, he`s the real dajjal. Remember what happen when shabaz came and he was deported with the whole plan full of commandos, T.V, media such as GEO and ARY was repeatedly ask to stop their correspondence just because the was with the truth. what kind of democracy is this, he`s a dick Tator not a president?

Most of the C-130s need overhauling.

re: tahmed32 # 137

I am sorry that I could not reply soon, but I was pre-occupied else where on Chowk.

I generally refer to Pakistanis as the ``natives`` in a sarcastic sense. There is no racist intention on my part, I just use the term as a sense of humor and I used to call my American friends as ``fellow colonials``.

I am not against the idea of brining education, social welfare program and economic prosperity to FATA and the tribes, but I am against the idea of allowing FATA to exist beyond the writ of the Pakistani government. The problem is that most of maliks in the region are an obstacle to progress and before anything worth while happens, their power and influence over the tribes have to ended. Towards this purpose, I support the what the government is doing to bring FATA within Pakistan.

Ahmed sahib, I have a dark sense of humor and regardless of how educated I am or where I live, I am will be sarcastic in my comments. :)

Ciao

Musharraf is one of the best people in the business. Lay off him.

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Letter in Daily Times on 03/31/04

The real battle in Wana

Sir: I supported the recent Wana operation even though I was cognisant of the short-term consequences of such an operation. A state must maintain a monopoly of violence over the territory it controls, and the Pakistani state certainly does not enjoy this monopoly in the tribal areas. This situation must change, and the establishment must come up with a long-term plan to incorporate the tribal areas and its people into Pakistan.

The Pakistan Army says that the operation is now over and its objectives have been realised. But have we really succeeded? Looking at pictures of women and children going through the rubble of their homes in Wana, it is obvious that the army has lost the battle for the hearts and minds of the tribal people. I also condemn the policy whereby the houses of people not cooperating with the army were razed. Collective punishment of this kind, which results in women and children losing their homes, is morally reprehensible and will create more hatred against the Pakistan Army and the state.

What the government must do is create a comprehensive economic, social and political programme for these Tribal Areas so that the people can benefit. I welcome the fact that new schools and roads are being constructed in some areas. This is a policy that must continue at a faster pace. Only by winning the hearts of these people can we root out foreign terrorists permanently. As of now, we are losing this battle for the hearts and minds.
TAIMUR MASUD KHAN
Via Email

Mr/Ms pardaisiji #8
You said
``or atleast, tell us what will happen tomorrow and day after.... ``

I already did. Check this out:
http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/31/top3.htm

``President Gen Pervez Musharraf has set a deadline of July-August for positive developments vis-a-vis the Kashmir issue and warned that the peace process between Pakistan and India could get derailed if the core issue is not addressed quickly and seriously.

``If peace process does not move forward, then I will not be a party to it,`` said President Musharraf while talking to a select group of journalists and intellectuals at the Army House here on Tuesday.

The president said the foreign ministers of the two countries needed to break the deadlock by July-August, otherwise the confidence building-measures (CBMs) initiated in the current detente would come to an end.

President Musharraf said Pakistan would reconsider its position if the expected results were not delivered by July- August. The president said he had informed the Indian leadership and the Western powers that if talks on Kashmir were not initiated within the set timeframe, then there would be no use of continuing the dialogue. ..``

ferozk #136 This statement indicates a racist way of thinking. This is the same notion that was held by a large segment of the white population about people like you and me (i.e. the ``natives``, the ``colored races`` or whatever) until as late as the 1950`s. And even then, there were British public servants and missionaries and others who believed otherwise, introduced western education in British India, and gave rise to the middle class of the subcontinent. Why then, do you deny the same education and democratic institutions to the tribals that has been the gift of the west to our dead-end eastern cultures? (I realize this last question may be a bitter pill to swallow, but let us have the courage to accept the truth).

I am appalled that you - a well educated man living in the cultural capital of Pakistan - should make such an ill-informed statement. Also note that regardless of what you and I think, the Pakistan government and the international community (with US and Japan actively participating) realizes that it is time that ``the land that time forgot`` be brought into the current century.

re: tahmed32

Sir, laws and democracy and accountable governments and social welfare development schemes are not the solution. All these ideas are noble and praise worthy, but cannot change the mental retardation of the tribes. The problem with the tribes is their mentality, which dates to old stone age.

Ciao

arjun_m #134
Check out Mr Mughal talking of animalism on the Naipaul board. The moral outrage at gruesome mob killings by Hindus and contrasting LACK of moral outrage at gruesome mass killings by jihadis is something wonderful to observe. The same people who righteously point to the overseas funding of Hindutva organisations, never ever admit to, much less point to the overseas and domestic funding of jihadi organisations.

In this LeT case, I guess such statements are like brand advertisements. There are prob. plenty of prospective donors outraged at the Hamas leader`s killing and LeT wants a share of the lucrative business. They don`t have any yehudis to offer so they are trying to sell yindoos on discount.

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rsridhar #130
``HHTI and LORROS are among the factors that made Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf call off jihad in Kashmir``

One wonders on who this newspaper aims to fool by saying that Musharraf has called off the jihad in Kashmir. For example, Lashkar-e-Taiba`s institutions are still active in Muridke, it still holds large public meetings in prominent places like Islamabad, and check out this last threat(this sort of poison is typical Pakistani textbook material - can`t find Jews to kill, so will kill Hindus).

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040324/wl_sthasia_afp/mideast_unrest_yassin_040324082033

``We will take revenge here in India as Yahud (Jews) and Hanood (Hindus) are two sides of the same coin,`` a spokesman for Lashkar-e-Taiba was quoted saying by the English-language Greater Kashmir newspaper.

``We will convene a meeting of field commanders shortly to decide as to how revenge could be taken,`` the spokesman said.``

arjun:

``Yes..they did...which is why Saddam had has butt dragged out of a spider hole..which is why a ton of pakis have been deported from the US.. Your point is what? ``

My point is this: No I don`t think the USA and Pakistan will use our non-NATO alliance thing to thrash India even if there are no terrorists there. But perhaps like the USA is using India as a check on China, it may use Pakistan as a check on India, Afghanistan as a check on Pakistan and an impending threat of Al Qaeda as a check on Afghanistan. America may pull an Iraq on India after alluring India to do a Kuwait on Pakistan ;-)

So do you suggest that we deal with the issue of terrorism through the following strategies:

1) Involve Pakistan as a major non-Nato ally to the complete disappointment of hawks in Indian Government, although I have a feeling that Pakistan may refuse the status,
or
2) nip the evil in the bud. This may be of most interest to you.

http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20031110/index.shtml

``Tut tut all you want..doesn`t change the facts on the ground.....You don`t need to go far to see how being associated with pakistan automatically makes you a suspect...we`ve got an example right here on chowk ``

You picked one example from 1 traveler and ignored many others from Pakistani travelers contributed here on Chowk. Also, Zain got through Bulgaria safely ;-)

Mahesh at #128:

``But that`s the point. Not every Pakistani has been released. And I don`t mean the Pakistanis in Guantanamo bay. ``

No boss, your point was at #107, as follows:

``All the Indians you are talking about were released because they were innocent. The Indian caught supplying arms to terrorists was part of the FBI plan to catch criminal arms dealers. Looks like you read only half the news. No Indian so far has been involved in any Islam related terrorist activities. ``

The point that you are claiming as yours now, was arjun`s to begin with.

However, if you wish to follow the footsteps of arjun, then I would like to say that:

(1) each time he mentioned a country arrested few Pakistanis, within few days he also got the news that all of them were set free (plus now one by one and in groups Pakistanis are being released from Guantanamo Bay and more importantly

(2) following the footsteps of arjun would mean that you have no USP and that you are also running an open thrash Pakistan agenda. Then there is no point for Pakistanis to debate any matter with you, because there are too many others who we are entangled with already.

But recalling a good post from you of few months ago, I would request that you play in a niche. Please try to find opportunities to educate us about India if you live in that country, about Hinduism, how are you people managing industrial development, education, etc. And if you are living elsewhere, please educate us about Indian Diaspora, how are you people coping with pressure on your cultural values, taking the threats against outsourcing, etc. Kindly advise us about our weaknesses, as we take on the monster of terrorism, something of our own making, because of the follies of the past.

Otoh, following in the footsteps of arjun, you will soon discover that you will be left alone, hobnobbing with other hate mongers on this board only. Some time some one from other side would drop a comment on a post just on sympathetic grounds or to have fun.

This is only a humble suggestion.

re: Jehad in Kashmir
It is happy time for Jehadis. The Indian Army has just made it a little easier for the Jehadis crossing LOC to meet the 72 Hoors (Virgins). Read on:

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=330250
Excerpt:

``HHTI and LORROS are among the factors that made Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf call off jihad in Kashmir. The Indian infantryman has become a night-stalker, with about 5,000 HHTIs (2,500 more are on the way), 8,000 night-vision goggles and hundreds of LORROSs in his hands. He can see deep, and strike, in the dark. Even the enemy bunkers from which infiltrators are sent in are getting within the firing range of the Indian infantry. The infantrymen have 5,000 anti-material rifles (1,000 more are coming) that can blast bunkers a kilometre and a half away.``
Sridhar

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Ahmed Zai #115,

But that`s the point. Not every Pakistani has been released. And I don`t mean the Pakistanis in Guantanamo bay.

ahmedzai #122 You are right. The tribals are indeed a hard-working lot, and all they need is a chance in life. As I mentioned below, there seem to be effort made nowadays to open up these areas by building roads and schools. Also, hopefully we will see more NGOs opening up schools here (as they have done in other rural parts of Pakistan). Most important perhaps, they need to replace tribal chiefs with elected Nazims as now being done elsewhere in Pakistan.

#125 by tahmed32

Mian - I have noticed your ``disclaimer`` in your latest ``run-away`` line :) I guess you are getting better at throwing such lines and have graduated to put conditions for a respectable return, if need be. That`s encouraging.

Anyway - I was referring to your earlier lines ( that`s why I said ``thousand times`` meaning numerous times ) where you would just run away wailing and whininng vowing never to talk to me again because I was rude or something....

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mohar #123 Ha! Ha! I am afraid only you are the one who is the liar. And a pretty stupid one too. As for me, this is what I wrote about you: ``(First and last post to you. I am aware of your cheap, hypocritical, argumentative kind on chowk, and dont waste time with you anymore except to put you in your place once in a while.) ``

Read the last pharse again ``except to put you in your place once in a while``. Now read it again until you finally comprehend it.

#120 by tahmed32
//...You are a liar...//

Well - so are you. Thousand times you told me you are not going to interact with me. Then there you are back again - only to say the same line and run away.

arjun_m at # 119:

Tut tut tut. 100% Americans also thought that Iraq had WMDs and was about to launch an attack on the USA.

And btw, fundoo Indoos like you might be attempting to make us believe that Americans are your Bhagwan lest everybody finds out your hidden nationalistic fundoo agenda imported from India.

;-)

Tauheed:

Thanks for sticking to your principled stance and an impressive post # 118. It keeps your countrymen in Pakistan going strong.

Btw, in line with what you had suggested that not all tribals are with terrorists, Mahsood Tribe today has formed a lashkar of 2,500 strong to apprehend the culprits. The tribesmen are upset at the martyrdom of Pakistani militarymen, many of them Pakhtoons. They have already identified the culprits and there is no escaping from them.

Btw, tribesmen are already performing wonderful services for Pakistan. Given their educational handicaps, they are mostly employed with army and are doing laborious jobs of driving cabs and long haul trucks in Pakistan and in the middle east. Lowly jobs, but they eek out the last reserves of energy from these men.

morhar #117 you write ``the likes of you have been singing the same tune: all taliban are not bad ..... there are moderate taliban and there are innocent taliban``

You are a liar. If you wish to prove otherwise, cut and paste where I said anything like this about the taliban.

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#99 by tahmed32 on March 22, 2004 7:37am PT
//...Your talk of throwing daisy cutters at innocent villagers exposes you to be more primitive than any tribal...//

Here is some relevant material:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FC24Df05.html

``As in most latitudes in the tribal areas, most people carry a tribal-made Kalashnikov and have been raised in madrassas maintained by the JUI.``

``innocent villagers`` donot carry Kalashnikov. These tribals are armed to their rotten teeth and rip you to pieces on slightest provocation. They are a blot on human existence. Only thing that could ever tame them is overwhelming brutal force - like what was applied on taliban. I am sure when talibans were getting their just deserts - the likes of you have been singing the same tune: all taliban are not bad ..... there are moderate taliban and there are innocent taliban..... they are just innocent islamic students.

ferozk #116 I agree with the rest of your post except the last part where you say ``The people of FATA understand one democratic principle and that is punishment and they should be punished to an extent that an example is set, which not be forgotten for the next thousand years. ``

So much anger against an impoverished people!! Lets not blame the ordinary people of FATA for the laissez faire approach to these areas of the Pakistan government. No one asked them to vote on whether they wish to be ruled by tribal sardars or whether they wish to join the rest of Pakistan in electing local Nizams. No one asked them to decide whether hundreds of armed men escaping justice in Afghanistan should come and build tunnels under their lands.

I have no doubt that, given their proud and independant traditions, given proper education and an accountable local government (tribal law belongs to the middle ages when ordinary people accounted for nothing), I have no doubt that the FATA people can become a dynamic segment of the Pakistan population, providing entrepreneurs and hard working citizens. For now, unfortunately, as with all impoverished people:

``Full many a flower is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.``
(Thomas Gray)

re: friend # 112

The democratic rights of the tribes in FATA are important but not important as Pakistan`s survivial. Democratic rights does not give you the privilege to break the law of the land, you claim alligence to and it does not give you the reason to create disorder, because you are in a political disagreement.

When you mentioned the democratic rights of the tribes, did you stop for one minute and consider how these democratic rights are being abused to deny the women of FATA their democratic rights? When you talk about the democratic rights of the tribes, where does in a democracy does it say you have the right to free electricity, free natural gas, confirmed job quotas in the government, and annual bribes to the FATA chieftens? When you mentioned the democratic rights of the tribes, did you consider the rights of the Pakistanis who are financially subsidizing the FATA`s economy and carrying the burden in the process and what are they gaining in the process? Pakistan being made into a terrorist den, because it is custom of the tribe and its sense of hospitality to shelter terrorists?

The people of FATA understand one democratic principle and that is punishment and they should be punished to an extent that an example is set, which not be forgotten for the next thousand years.

Ciao

Mahesh G:

I hope you got the point. Arjun has always mentioned Pakistanis arrested in Italy, Kenya and many other places using the events to ridicule Pakistanis. Then it takes me to reply to him that each and every Pakistani that had been arrested has been released. I keep telling him wait and see, all Pakistanis at Guantanamo will also be released one by one. However, when such news about Pakistanis is telecast and printed in Western media, it creates a negative perception at the outset. Later, when the picture gets corrected, no body in the western media bothers to mention it.

For example, two weeks ago, there was this Nigerian Government`s hilarious error of issuing a communiqué that stated that, amongst other things, Pakistan has offered to assist that country in developing nuclear weapons. The news was immediately telecast all around the world by the western media as if it was their mission to tarnish the image of Pakistan. CNN and BBC within 2 hours were interviewing key figures in Pakistan seeking clarification. However, after Nigerian Government issued the correction and apologized for the mistake, none in the western media bothered to issue a clarification and went back to any key Pakistani officials to bury the hatchet.

The part played by western media in maligning Islam and Muslims is also a reason for the negative perception of us people in the West and also in India. This is why when Indians visit Pakistan, they get over-whelmed by our openness and broad-mindedness.

And while at something initiated by brainless copy and paste master arjun_m, why not put this post to a logical end: Can I please have a link on two Indians related events that you clarified -1. Indians released in Spain and 2. Indian used as a spy to bust a gang?

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Romair #93

{The, ``tribal`` areas of Pakistan need to be brought under the control of the Pakistani State, come hell or highwater.}

What? Should not there be a plebiscite? what happened to the democratic rights of tribal areas?

Romair #93

{The, ``tribal`` areas of Pakistan need to be brought under the control of the Pakistani State, come hell or highwater.}

What? Should not there be a plebiscite? what happened to the democratic rights of tribal areas?

hossp #110 Agreed. It seems logical to assume that as relations between Pakistan and India improve through the current peace process, the Pakistan government will show the same due diligence in rounding up and bringing to justice those charged with committing terrorist crimes in India as it has done with those charged with committing terrorist crimes in the US. Law and order is essential for civilized society and for longer term economic progress, and as such Pakistanis themselves are the ultimate victims of these jehadis and other scum who have been trying to take over our country.

tahmad #109

“I agree with some points you make, and beg to differ on others.”
Fair enough! I don’t expect you to agree with everything I write. That would not be fair to assume on my part.
“A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist.” tahmad

The reason I make the distinction is based on the impact different sets of Jehadi’s make on Pakistan. The Jehadis in Pakistan, who are championing the rights of Kashmir and Islam are more menacing to me than the Jihadi who are making noises about the US.

The US also makes this distinction. It agrees with India that the Jihadi in Kashmir are terrorists but it does not ask the Pakistan Army to take military action against them. The US only asks Pakistan to close it borders so that these Jihadi cannot go to India and involve in the act of terrorism. The same US would be different if the Pakistani Jihadi turn around and take cudgel against the US. The US on the other hand puts pressure on Pakistan to take army actions against the jihadi that are perceived dangerous to the US.

Let’s be clear on one thing, IMO, Most of jihadi are killer or have intentions to kill innocent people for some unknown gains. I seriously doubt that most of the people arrested in wana, seemed even capably of fully formatting their support for OBL. They were mercenaries and if the Pakistan army took them out then that is fine with me too. But the question that I have is why the Jihadi in Pakistan have free reins?

There seems to be apparently no action against the Jihadi in Pakistan. Most of them are still free and still involved in terrorist activism under different guises. In fact, the Pakistan govt has effectively nullified the US ban on the Jihadi outfits by not monitoring the Jihadi in different outfits. The Lahore guy and the Masood guy from Bahawlpur are still free and the Binori mosque in Karachi or the madarssa in NWFP are still under the same management. I can accept the argument that all madarass are not bad and madarassas have a traditional role in Pakistani society. However, the ones, whose links to active terrorism have been amply documented are still allowed to operate under the same management.

It appears that the seeds of old complexity between the army and Jihadi are being re-sowed and that is a worrisome phenomenon. Hence, my questioning of the army intentions in cleansing Pakistan of Jihadi outfits completely. If the army continues to deal with the Jihadi in Pakistan with kid gloves then chances of seeing any improvement in Pakistan are doubtful.

hossp #108 I agree with some points you make, and beg to differ on others.

I dont see how you can say that the real jehadis are not hiding out in Wana: what do you think those heavily armed central asians and chechens and arabs are doing out there? Did Were they having a mountaineering vacation? It is irresponsible to fault the musharaff government for doing what any responsible national government has a duty to do - hunt down and capture or kill any such armed bands inside the country.

I also disagree with your distinction between pakistan based jehadi groups vs. arab/chechen terrorists. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist. The fact that he is targetting civilians in other countries does not make him less criminal than if he was targetting civilians in your own country. The fact that a terrorist shot dead innocent hindu villagers in kashmir makes him no less evil than if he rammed a plane full of people into buildings full of people in NY.

While the US is quite rightly focusing on arab terrorist groups, it has also included the pakistan based jehadi groups in its terrorist watch list (as it has other groups around the world, including the basque separatists). Governments are obviously constrained by practical limitations (budgets, countervailing forces), but you and I as individuals are not similarly constrained in forming and expressing our views, and indeed are answerable (if we consider ourselves muslim) before God for being responsible in these matters of life and death which our brave jawans are currently engaged in against these international terrorists.

#105 by tahmed32

“This is the case with terrorists - they have been deluded into madness. Regardless of the reasons the person went mad (brainwashing by mullah teachers no doubt would have much to do with it), the fact is that he is a danger to other people. So, it is not a question of love or hate, but one of defending civilized society from these individuals.”

Exactly tahmad!!!

Lets not be too giddy about the US and the Pakistani intentions. There is lots of blame and culpability to go around! All I ask is to find out who the real Jihadi are?

The real Jihadi are not hiding in Wana, they are very much in the cities and big houses in Pakistan. The army and other law enforcement agencies within Pakistan are protecting them.

The army finds it convenient to attack people in Wana but what has it done inside Pakistan?
The madarssa’s are still there and the sponsors of these maddarsa’s, the people in MMA are supporting the army and undercutting any chance of liberal and secular democracy in Pakistan.

I can understand your support of the army as many liberal people like yourself think that may be the army would eliminate these terrorists and Jihadi within the body politics in Pakistan. What we see really happening is that same Jihadi and terrorists are becoming the main supporters of the military govt. in Pakistan. Obviously, they (Jihadi) don’t see the army as a threat to their bread and butter.

The Jihadi inside of Pakistan have no sympathy with the renegades and terrorists from the Arab countries but they certainly want to protect their own in Lahore, Karachi, and Islamabad.

The MMA types were never committed to OBL or Alqueda but they have huge sympathy with the Taliban. So, even if the terrorists and Jihadi from Arab and former soviet countries are eliminated, we in Pakistan would still have to deal with the Taliban supporters and they are all in the army protection right now.

We also need to understand the US commitment to anti-terrorism. The terrorists that can affect the US are all Arabs and the OBL followers in Saudi Arabia etc. The Pakistan terrorists have only verbal bone to pick with the US and they pose no serious threat to the US inside or outside of the US. Therefore, the US is not as keen on Pakistani Jihadi elimination as it is in eliminating the Arab terrorists.

The US interest in Pakistan Jihadi would wane within a short period of time and we the poor liberal Pakistanis would again end up being on the short end of Jihadi stick.

Ahmad Zai #106,

All the Indians you are talking about were released because they were innocent. The Indian caught supplying arms to terrorists was part of the FBI plan to catch criminal arms dealers. Looks like you read only half the news. No Indian so far has been involved in any Islam related terrorist activities.

arjun_m at # 103:

My submissions to His High Headedness:

1. Its not only Pakistanis, but almost all other Islamic countries and that discriminatory policy has come under attack from all over the world.

2. Now South Dakotans know about Indians too after they heard that many of the most wanted Iraqis by the USA Mililtary were graduates of Indian universities, it was Indian companies who were collaborating with Saddam on Chemical weapons, an Indian (not Muslim) was caught supplying arms to terrorists and 2 Indians (not Muslims) have been arrested in Spain after Madrid blasts.

3. Pakistan is about to become / has become strategic partner of the USA that Indian extremist Government meekly protested.

4. Gallup poll: First tell me who was the sample population? I bet they conducted it in Silicon Valley`s back office. On a more serious note, look at who is on the top of the list - mostly White Anglo-Saxon countires and who is at the bottom of the list - mostly Islamic countries. This is plainly attributable to the perception created in the minds of Americans against Muslims by their media - precisely my point ever since I joined this website.

My suggestion to you: stop dying a frustrated death seeing Pakistan`s development. Rest assured, we are on the right track. Instead, start doing something about fetus killings in India, dowry deaths, HIV, ethnic violence like Assamese killing Beharis and vice versa, religious violence in India like Gujrat tragedies, etc.

:-)

harimau (various posts):

Your anti-Malay stance is understandable. Its similar to many Indians living in KL that I meet. They also speak against Malay in the same vein.

Unlike Malays and Chinese, Indians have not been able to grow economically and are still living at subsistence level. However, the new generation is turning to professional fields. This will leave a vacume on plantations and hence Malaysia`s offer of 250,000 or so jobs to Pakistanis (most of them would be on plantations).

Reverting to communist threat, you may be right reality wise, but these days its perception that counts. An Indian perception of Pakistanis is that all of us are Jihadi Talibanis. Therefore, when Indians come to visit Pakistan, they get over-whelmed by our openness and broad mindedness, because that perception is just that - perception. Similarly, there is a perception amongst Chinese and Malays that I normally meet that the communist threat was real indeed. I have met former commandos of Malaysian military, now working as conservationists and rangers, who fought communists in the hills of Malaysia. At campfires in the night, they enjoy telling their stories of those confrontations to the adventure travelers. Getting into these details would justify another topic. Otoh, this may be the reality and coming from your Malaysian-Indian minority background, your stance may be perception.

My personal take is that you are a nationalist Hindu, who takes pride in his heritage. This is just fine and for a conservationist like me, this is exceptionally good for the legacy we will leave for our posterity. But this makes me think that I cannot take your words for reality either.

Btw, I had enjoyed reading your post on Basant topic, where you had attributed the roots to Hinduism of many a touristic events all over the world that I had mentioned. That post was awesome. I salute you for that kind of research.

ahmedzai #100 I think it is easy to bring dil and damagh in synch: The question is not one of love or hate but of self-defense and protecting the innocent. If you have a madman walking the streets with a gun in his hand, job number 1 is to disarm him and put him away (or kill him, if there is no choice, in order to protect other people from getting killed by him). This is the case with terrorists - they have been deluded into madness. Regardless of the reasons the person went mad (brainwashing by mullah teachers no doubt would have much to do with it), the fact is that he is a danger to other people. So, it is not a question of love or hate, but one of defending civilized society from these individuals.

That is why it is so important I think for all patriotic pakistanis to stand behind musharaff, rather than idly ridiculing him as being a lackey of the US as I see some posters doing. The US is doing the right thing in seeking peace and progress in Afghanistan, and Pakistani forces are doing the right thing in collaborating with the US to ensure that terrorists have nowhere to hide in that part of the world. In neutralizing these jehadi gangs in the tribal areas, the Pakistan Army is doing the one thing it is supposed to do: fight and destroy anyone who seeks to attack pakistani society. The 30 Pakistani jawans who are died in the process have died protecting every innocent person in the world, and may God Bless their souls.

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re: ahmadzai # 17

The issue of Islam exists only in Chowk and only on Chowk is the Talibanization of Pakistan debated seriously.

Ciao

Well, to be frank, no one should be surprised if one day the circle comes full way -- finally.

... While many politicians were prevented from fighting elections on patently frivolous grounds, the Sipah-i-Sahaba leader, accused of sectarian killings, was allowed to contest from jail. He was freed after he agreed to join the pro-Musharraf alliance in the National Assembly. To retain Tariq`s support the government ignored the non-bailable warrants of arrest issued against him by anti-terrorism courts. He was later killed apparently in a revenge attack by a rival group. Similarly Maulana Azhar Masood and leaders of other outlawed militant groups, were only detained for a few months under the Maintenance of Public Order, although their activities clearly violated numerous articles of the anti-terrorism laws.

Despite Musharraf`s promise to reform the madrassas and eradicate extremism, the issue does not seem to be on the government`s priority list. To date no regulation has been formulated to make it mandatory for madrassas to register with the government . No national syllabus has been developed and no rules on the funding of madrassas has been adopted. Most observers agree that without any legal mechanism, or a long-term strategy in place, the government cannot prevent the flow of funds to unregulated madrassas and other religious groups involved in extremist activities.

The government`s failure to curb the jihadi madrassas is largely responsible for fueling Islamic extremism. Many of the Islamic schools continue to provide recruits for jihad in Afghanistan and Kashmir. While Musharraf has repeatedly downplayed the link between jihad and the madrassas, most religious schools continue to preach jihad as an essential aspect of Islam. After the failed attempts on Musharraf`s life, the administration launched raids on some jihadi madrassas, but such half-hearted and piecemeal measures will hardly help improve the situation. ``Musharraf`s failure owes less to the difficulty of implementing reforms than the military-led government`s own unwillingness,`` says Samina Ahmed, director, International Crisis Group.

In order to retain international support, the Musharraf government has shown their commitment to apprehend Al Qaeda fugitives. There is, however, little evidence of it taking a tougher position against homegrown extremists, many of whom are associated with the Islamic groups that it needs for its own survival. The Musharraf government`s politics of expediency has allowed the religious right and Islamic extremists to expand their bases. And this poses the most serious threat to Pakistan`s internal security.

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsMar2004/cover1Mar2004.htm

Tauheed at # 88:

I believe that this is a proverbial battle of `dill and Dimagh`. The Dimagh tells us that wiping out any remnants of Al Qaeda and Talibans is going to bring tremendous good to us by way of economic development coming from stability of Afghanistan and beyond. Already, Pakistan has won an awesome reward in being accorded the status of a major non-NATO ally to the complete disappointment of anti-Pakistani extremists. Otoh, the Dill says oh gosh we have to ditch our ``Islamic brothers``.

Strictly personally speaking, I believe we are on the right track. There is no place for extremists taking cheap shots at innocents in the modern world. This is something our Jihadis should have realized post 9-11 in a jiffy. If they had gone underground leaving Afghanistan to prosper through direct help of the Coalition, that would have been better. In that situation, they could have staged a comeback at an appropriate time in the future, if the affairs warranted their re-emergence. This is what people like me had wanted our foreign friends to do. This would have been an ideal situation for Pakistan too, although you would perhaps classify this approach as hypocrisy.

By giving into their emotional belief of `Ghaiby Imdad``, the ``Jihadis`` started resistance against a much superior enemy too early and are about to destroy themselves. If your friends can`t make rationale prevail over emotionalism, then let them be destroyed now no matter how dear they were to us. If they are not destroyed now, they will destroy the civil society of the NWFP and of Pakistan that deserves better living.

As far as MMA`s and people resentment in killing of our former friends is concerned, the time will pass. Yes, there will be low-key protests at the behest of MMA, perhaps some degree of initial anti-Pakistanism, but soon this will come to a pass. This time there is no soothing element on other side of the border and above all, economic prosperity in itself is the medicine for all diseases.

hamidm2 - two posts:

Your advice to Pakhtoons would have appeared appealing, if you had set a good example of an interactor on the board.

As it is, you are an angry man in life. If the tribals appear primitive in their approach to life, then you are no different. You match Pakhtoon tribesmen and often exceed them in your hatred of fellow humans.

See its like Fundoo Indians on this website, who keep chanting Jihadi Pakistanis, Talibani Pakistanis, extremist Pakistanis, who are products of backward madressa based education, etc. But if you look at their (Jay, arjun, gujjobania, saxena, pmishra, m_souza, mohar, etc.) posts, then you notice that its they who have graduated with honors from the School of Extremism and Fanaticism.

Romair #93 I dont think there is any going back in the tribal areas. I understand (ahmedzai would know better) that there is a lot of work going on (roads/schools) in the tribal areas, financed by Japan and the US as well as the Pakistan government to build up infrastructure there. Nor is the Pakistan government going to go back to its laissez faire approach in the tribal areas. I wouldnt be surprised if a few years down the road they change laws and regulations to bring the tribal areas at par with the rest of the country in terms of the legal and administrative infrastructure.

Ref arjun_m #81

[That sounds like an Indian word: Bhumi putra..son of the soil perhaps?]

Exactly. Though SOBs would be more appropriate. The real Bhumiputras would be the Orang Asli (Asli - Original, Orang - Man, meaning aborigines) who constitute 10% of Malasian population. The Malays are about 45%, the Chinese 35% and Indians 10%. The frikking Malays claim a majority (not just a plurality), reserve 80% of college seats for Malays and screw everybody else through intimidation.

Their frikking language has words imported from Sanskrit and Tamil. Thus bhumiputra. Pustaka is book, bahasa (bhasha) is language. Keppel is ship and kedai is shop (both from Tamil). More recently, the frikking idiots decided to enhance the vocabulary by importing words. So it is buku for book. But the best is the word for water. In Malay, it is ayer but nowadays written as air. So the idiots can`t tell the difference between water and air!

Re ahmedzai #74

Any paper about a 1969 Communist threat to Malaysia is just propaganda by the US to obtain support for the Viet Nam war. When Tunku Abdul Rehman got the Malysian Federation going by incorporating Northern Borneo (Sabah and Sarawak states), Sukarno of Indonesia thought it was a British plot to surround Indonesia and announced a policy of ``confrontation``. Sukarno being thought to be a Communist sympathizer, the West played up the Communist threat to Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, South Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines and by extension to the US.

If you take this ``Domino Theory`` to be correct, then there was a Communist threat to Malaysia in 1969.

Please find some history books on the ``real`` Communist threat to Malaya in 1948 in the aftermath of WWII.

There is no dispute as to ``The Malay Dilemma`` being banned till 1981 or Mahathir being a demogogue who was egging the frikking Malays on to fight the Chinese and Indians. Nor is there any doubt as to the trumped-up charges against Anwar Ibrahim for daring to question Mahathir.

mohar: Your talk of throwing daisy cutters at innocent villagers exposes you to be more primitive than any tribal. We are all quite familiar with the level of primitive background you come from (yesterday there was a news item of an indian man marrying is own grandmother ``in order to better take care of her``), so you can stop acting high and mighty just because you managed to get into the US.

(First and last post to you. I am aware of your cheap, hypocritical, argumentative kind on chowk, and dont waste time with you anymore except to put you in your place once in a while.)

hamidm #85: ``fourteen hundred years ago this is what khushal khan had to say about his brethren :``

Did KKK (Khushal) live fourteen hundred years ago?

The, ``tribal`` areas of Pakistan need to be brought under the control of the Pakistani State, come hell or highwater. This is a bit hard to do, however, when the elected Prime Minister of the country is a tribal leader, himself. Such is the irony of Pakistan.

All this nonsense about tribal leaders having honor and what not is just that, i.e. nonsense. This is one of the few political ideas of Imran Khan that I do not like. I am surprised even he buys into it. I hope he is only doing so for political advantage, and does not really believe in it.

To me, the only brave fighter in Pakistan is the one who holds a gun and stands at the border, to protect other Pakistani (or even non-Pakistani) families from enemy attack. Every other fighter, be he tribal or otherwise is blowing smoke up everyone. As are many vocal expatriate mujahids of secularism or religion.

Let us do any analysis of the tribals. By tribals, I mean the tribal leaders of all variety, not just those in Wana. I am leaving out the tribal followers, because, I assume, they don`t have much power:

- Tribal leaders of FATA get seats in the NA. Once there, they always vote for the party in power, i.e. they party that will form the government. This is not based on any principle or honor. It is based on greed.

- Tribal leaders do not want to be put under the laws of Pakistan. However, they try to get free benefits from Pakistan, like electricity, jobs, college admissions. In essence, they have no responsibilities, but want the benefits. This is not honor either

- Tribal leaders enforce medieval laws, based on suppressing women and other members of their society. This is not honor either.

- The relatives of the tribal leaders are yuppie Pakistanis. They are not tribal chiefs, fighting for the honor of anyone. One brother sits in the tribe and runs it. His other brothers and neices and nephews are as likely to be found in London as they are in Baluchistan and in NWFP. They are generally Westernised yuppies, who just use their tribe to gain political and social advantages.

Tribal areas get affirmative action for their relatives in Pakistani colleges. If you go and check, you will rarely find any student their, who actually studied in the tribal areas. All the, ``tribal area`` kids have their domicile registered in tribal areas, while they go to school at Aitchison and in Islamabad, and then use their domicile to get into colleges, with low grades. Not very honorable.

I think anyone who kills a Pakistani soldier needs to be sorted out. Hence the Army should continue with these operations. The Army, internally, has very strong unit loyalties and traditions. If someone harms one of the members of a unit, everyone else, regardless of religion/ethnicity etc., makes it a point to get revenge. This alone will be enough of a motivation to take out whomever killed the para-milataries.

After this, massive development aid should be provided to the tribal areas. And most of all their leaders should be disbanded, and be forced to do 9-5 jobs like the rest of us. Of course, this is a bit hard to do, when the country is led by a tribal leader, who is supported by many educated expats on this site, even, because he is, ``democratically`` elected.

Anyone supporting the feudals and tribals of Pakisani politics loses the right to oppose the tribals of Wana, because the later are also, ``elected`` through local jirgas of sorts.

#91 by hamidm2
//....forty years ago my mother`s first cousin killed his daughter for looking out into the hujra ...//

Yuck! Man - this is horrible.

And you are right - as soon as you US starts this much-needed cauterization process - tribal-sympathizers like tahmed and ahmedzai will cry blue murder .... human right violations and what not!

But for some reason, I feel that even daisy-cutters would not entirely succeed in making civilized people out of these horrible primitives called ``tribals``. Centuries of living in primitive mindset must have seeped into the DNA.

ahmedzai,

............. your post #84 exemplifies what is wrong with the the savages who live in the so-called tribal belt ......... people like you - the few educated people amongst these primitive and idiotic throwbacks to the thirteenth century - are primarily responsible for keeping these poor people backward and ignorant with your silly talk about pakhtunwali and bravery and lashkars and tribal elders .............for god`s sake, are we living in the friggin sixth century ?!!!!

.......... forty years ago my mother`s first cousin killed his daughter for looking out into the hujra (for the uninformed, a hujra is a place in the house where pathan men gather to listen to the bullshit doled out by their tribal elders - kind of like a courtyard)......... in the middle of the night he and his sons buried her - no questions were asked ........last year, the dead girl`s brother, who made general in the pakistan army was late for my mother`s funeral because one of his nephews had been killed in an encounter with other nephews ................. the matter was ``settled`` and, once again, no questions were asked ................in what kind of world do you guys live!!!! .......... pakhtunwlai be damned - this is the twenty first century !

............ so please stop talking about lashkars and tribal elders and hospitality ............ it is high time these tribes were tamed, and if it takes daisy-cutters dropped from american b-52`s to do it, so be it ..........

ahmedzai #84 Thanks for providing some further light on these events. on the points you make, i have a couple of comments:

1. On the first point, I dont think anyone would expect the local population to drive out 400 trained killers, well equipped with automatic weapons as well as heavier weaponry. The only practical response to such a force is the regular army, and that has been done. This is nothing that the local pathan population has to be ashamed of.

2. Clearly if there are individuals who have married into local families and given up their zealot agenda, I doubt if anyone is going to bother with them. FOr the rest, I am sure the locals would like them out more than anyone else - after all, who wants 400 armed men sitting in their backyards? And while there may be sympathy among them with some people - that sympathy is clearly misplaced: these individuals were fighting for the wrong cause (i.e. to support the undemocratic taliban regime that our generals had helped foist upon afghanistan and represented a primitive and brutal mindset that violated every principle of islam) at the wrong time (i.e. when great efforts are being made by the international community to make afghanistan into a peaceful, progressive and democratic country) and in the most criminal of ways (i.e. by attacking civilians and by planning terrorists attacks around the world).

I am not sure what role MMA is playing, but clearly they have not taken to the streets as they did a couple of years ago when the US attacked afghanistan. That says (a) that musharaff has been effective in dealing with the mullahs (exactly what carrots he promised and what sticks he applied, we wont know until later); and (b) the Pakistani public has no sympathy for these terrorists, even though it exists no doubt among some people in the tribal belt.

Saima Shah #87 Well written and thoughtful post.

Armymen in civil depts told not to wear uniforms
http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/19/nat23.htm

ISLAMABAD, March 18: Army officials deputed in civil departments on secondment basis will stop wearing army uniforms by March 31, 2004, a letter issued from the General Headquarters said.
The Army Dress Regulations 1989 (Rule 4-h) bars army personnel in civil departments from displaying car flags, stars and army number plates on their vehicles unless attending state and ceremonial functions.
The GHQ`s orders said only those army officials working with National Accountability Bureau could continue wearing army uniforms and displaying army flags, stars and number plates on their vehicles.
According to an establishment division report, about 1,027 military officers have been inducted on civilian posts in different ministries, divisions and Pakistani missions abroad after the Oct 12, 1999 military takeover.
They include 104 serving and retired lieutenant-generals, major-generals or equivalent ranks from other services, 160 brigadier or officials of equivalent ranks from Navy and Air Force.
Military officers are working on civilian posts in almost all sectors, including communications, education, diplomacy, water and electricity management, information, post office, jails, local bodies, think tanks, industrial production, shipping, minority affairs, population welfare, health, agriculture, railways, highways, housing, labour and manpower, social and women development, law and justice and sub-sectors of sports from cricket to hockey.

---

The uniform, which was once considered a symbol of honour, has become liability. A sort of death warrant. Military officers, to whom people once worshiped and idolized are today not deemed better than police thanedar (or swine in plain words). Sad, really sad.
Apparently, wearing uniform in civil is to invite the wrath of general public. Military apologists see, what people like you with their nonsensical attitude have done to the finest institution of the country.

---

The next day came an interesting clarification/amendment.

`GHQ`s orders on uniform don`t apply to President`
http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/21/nat9.htm

ISLAMABAD, March 20: The orders of the General Headquarters under which all army
officials performing civil duties would stop wearing uniform by March 31 do not apply to President Gen Pervez Musharraf ...

---

While we are on the subject, it would be pertinent to add one more point vis a vis ongoing military operation in tribal areas. Probably, just a co-incidence but one cannot avoid reckoning a weird detail. On one hand Pakistani generals are exceptionally good, trigger-happy and “fearless” at slaughtering fellow countrymen -- may it be East Pakistan, interior Sindh during MRD movement or Wana – on the other hand reportedly they are always fully prepared with an extra zip at the back of their trousers and a bottle of lubricants just in case they come across enemy combatants.

[This extra zip at the back and a big hole in the panties along with lubricants are meant to make the job of enemy easier. Remember, according to various eye-witness accounts some of the senior army officers were “very busy” arranging barra khana for Indians on the eve of surrender in Dacca. Surrender or no surrender, Pakistani “mawes” generals don’t compromise on hospitality. ]

Finally of Musharraf’s being a messiah
But the tussle raises overall costs for the system and threatens the future political course of this country. General Musharraf has played politics exactly along the same lines and with the lack of any principle as the politicians he despises and for which reason he says the army is inclined to intervene into the system. There is a clear disconnect between his rhetoric and the reality of his actions.

Editorial
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_12-3-2004_pg3_1

Shahid

Sometimes history doesnt repeat itself. Things truly change. Geo-political realities change. Otherwise the Berlin would never have come down, neither would Russia have disintegrated, nor South Africa stop apartheid nor Japan would have learnt to make cars but become another Beirut. Bush will stay Mush will stay, only we the people will change to accept reality. As for the zealots they will continue to make stupid bomb blasts and keep agitating for nothing but a little attention from the world. The zealots have no political ideology or struggle. They are just criminals who seek world attention. They know that too--Osama knows that he has nothing new to say, no new idea to give, no political statement. He is a cult and like all cults he and others like him will dissolve. The zealots as you name them will continue to operate from the safety of their comfort zone--suicide and bombs. Net achievement is that they change exactly nothing in world politics other than increasing the level of suspicion and distrust between races, nationalities and cultures--which is always a tender spot.

The shock that you are showing is rightly so. We are all aghast at the central role that Pakistan plays in this saga. To me the Wana situation redeems Pakistan. Our soldiers are not dying for some nebulous them but to protect humanity from criminals.

#85 hamidm

Khoshal laments over the disunity and inter-tribal animosity among the Pakhtun tribes. What makes you whine?

And yet Afghans, in all their deeds,
Are better than the Moguls;
but unanimity they lack,
and there`s is the pity of it.

I hear talk of Sultan Baholol,
Also of Sher Shar Sur:
They were Afghans who won renown
As emperors in Hind.

For six or seven generations
They ruled in such a way
That all the people were amazed
At their accomplishments.

Either they were another kind
Than these Afghans today,
Or else it is by Gods command
That things have reached this pass.

I once Afghans acquire the grace
Of unanimity
Aged Khushal will thereupon
Become a youth again.

Cup Bearer, fill the flagon, fill it high,
Khushal shall sing of war in revelry,
Now blood has stained the hands of the pashtun youth,
The talons of the hawke that knows no ruth,
For full 5 years the tribal sword has flashed,
keen edged and bright, since first the battle clashed,
Upon tatara`s peak, where at one blow,
Twice twenty thousand of the moghul foe,
Perished, wives, sisters, all that they held dear,
Fell captive to the all conquering afghan spear,
Next in Daoba smote we Hussain Bek,
Crushed his unclean head, that venomous snake,
In all our gain was glory, our glory gain,
Minstrels shall sing of us ``Yea! these were men!``

...... khushal khan khattak had their number, so bring on the daisy-cutters..........

.......... as i have said many times, the pathans are incorrigible scum - and i say this is inspite of the fact that half my relatives, who claim to be direct descendants of ahmed shah abdali (a brigand if there ever was one), live either in peshawar or quetta ............

..........it is about time somone cleaned out the rat`s nests they have created in waziristan and other places along the border .............. i say, bring on the daisy-cutters and cut these idiots dow to size!..........the only language they understand is the language of force (as a us army seargent so aptly put it in iraq) ................. fourteen hundred years ago this is what khushal khan had to say about his brethren :

Of the Pathans that are famed in the land of Roh,

Now-a-days are the Mohmands, the Bangash, and the Warrakzais, and the Afridis.

The dogs of the Mohmands are better than the Bangash,

Though the Mohmands themselves are a thousand times worse than the dogs.

The Warrakzais are the scavengers of the Afridis,

Though the Afridis, one and all, are but scavengers themselves.

This is the truth of the best of the dwellers in the land of Pathans,

Of those worse than these who would say that they were men?

No good qualities are there in the Pathans than are now living:

All that were of any worth are imprisoned in the grave.

This indeed is apparent to all who know them.


dsclaimer: before somone gets his six-yard shalwar in a knot, i will admit that there are some civilized pathans - those that have moved to the cities, given up niswar and their nadas, and are following the generally accepted standards of personal hygiene (GASP).........

Ijaz:

Contents of your message at # 69 noted with thanks.

:-)

Tauheed at # 79:

Although I would refrain from saying anything on the negotiations, I would like to shed light on the misuse of Pakhtoon hospitality that would answer your query in an indirect way.

The Lashkar constituted by the Wazir-Ahmadzai tribe was quite successful in apprehending and handing over about half of the wanted men by the Government. However, there is a pyschological dilemma for us.

1. Gone are the days when we used to be fighters first and foremost. The purpose of making a Lashkar is actually show of power that should play psychologically on the opponents. However, if the opponents like Chechen fighters stand up to us, there is no way that we will overcome them through any military means. The Government did not listen to our pleas and forced us to deliver. Lashkar`s submission is now upheld since these fighters have put such a resistance to an organized para-military of The Government that the former did not have any chance against them.

2. Although we would like the foreigners to leave our territory, there is considerable amount of sympathy for them in that our tribemen are emotional and begin to question that where would the ``foreigners`` go if we ask them to leave. It boils to this simple thing. Our elders don`t want any injustices to be meted out to our ``foreign`` guests of the past and they know that this is something that cannot be guaranteed under present international environment. Previously, a safe passage could have been provided for them to leave for some other willing hosts. Not any more for there is no longer any safe passage and a willing host. This emotional weaning of the way is breaking down ``our`` nerves. Besides, there are many ``foreigners`` who have settled in the agency, have married in the local families and have given up any zealot religious agenda. But they are being clubbed with the ``foreign`` fighters too.

The current negotiations are more for the release of some Pakistani para-military that the Government thought are in the custody of tribesmen. Well, they are not with the tribesmen. If they were, the tribesmen would have handed them back by now. In all liklihood they are in the custody of foreign fighters and their supporters.

Btw, its good to see MMA putting up stiff opposition to the Government stance. My family and I are pro-Government on the matter, but this opposition is keeping the Government under check for comitting any excesses.

Coming to think of it, Musharraf is the only high value target in Pakistan!

He has shown the world, how easy it is to fool the Bushies! They fell for the staged operation in Waziristan as the real thing. Poor Gullible Ba$tards. Bush is really taken to the cleaners by the Musharraf. Ha Ha. Can a single soul on Chowk (Pakistanis only) ever believed Musharraf when he claimed presence of HVT in Wana? Did anyone see him ``acting`` on CNN... dont you think he deserves an Oscar?

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hamidm #73 You can steal whatever story you like. Just dont misquote me or misrepresent what I am saying. Lying and misrepresenting things is your Uncle Jay Thakeray`s department not yours - your job is to by funny.

ahmedzai: Here is something from cnn that might interest you ``Negotiations with the Ahmed Zai tribe are expected to begin once the loya jirga concludes, and are expected to end Monday, the sources said.``

These negotiations are with the pakistan government and relate to handing over of the remaining middle eastern and central asia thugs who came over to Pakistan. Looks like 100 chechen/uzbeks already surrendered. And they may find some big fish among them (including even zawahiri). Since this seems to be your tribe that the government is negotiating with, i wonder if you have any additional light you wish to shed on this question.

Interestingly, these chechen types (who were clearly abusing the fine traditions of hospitality of pakistanis - and in particular of the pathan tribes in the tribal belt) dont seem to be all that smart: they massed into a large group of 400, thus simpligying the task of the Pakistan army (although they initially kill 34 of our men).

Harimau at # 61:

Although you challenged me on few issues regarding Malaysia, on communist advances in that country, I would encourage all chowkies to read this paper, which supports my submission of the earlier post. Most of the other issues raised by you are subjective and different people will have different viewpoint, except for economic and social indicators of IMF`s Malaysia Desk that prove that its performance has been awesome.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1997/Jambi.htm

Title of the paper: The Failure of Communist Ideology (Malaysia)

Some excerpts:

Excerpt 1:
``Background:
A multi racial country such as Malaysia is fragile and is built along a racial lower class and ethnic lines. The incident of May 13, 1969 is a good example of this. This is when the communists indoctrinated the people at all levels -- government officials, trade unionists, the armed forces, police ,and middle classes -- with communist ideology. Their second goal was to cripple the government and create instability within the politic and in the economy by using the categories of people mentioned above to take advantage of the instability in order to overthrow the government of Malaysia``

Excerpt 2:

``Internally, Malaysia experienced an outbreak of racial problems with the first Communist Insurgency and communist resurgence beginning in 1969. Domestic reconciliation was the priority at that moment. Nevertheless, external defense remained paramount. In early 1970, the First Prime Minister Tunku Abdul Rahman accepted limited defense ties with Great Britain, Australia , New Zealand and Singapore through the Five Power Defense Agreement (FPDA). It was signed in 1971,[7] and was designed to repel communist advances coming from the Indochina.``

I hope this settles the matter of communism in Malaysia.

71 posts!! man u must`ve done something right! but i agree that though musharraf`s days might be numbered even if he dies not much is going to change `partial law or martial law we will never reform` the next president will continue to take his orders from an imbecile in the white house who takes his orders from his team of advisors ( a man who can`t form a coherent sentence can`t be planning all this on his own) and Bin ladin will continue to be elusive. and his followers will continue to give thier lives for a misconception they consider Islam

tahmed,

....... i was hoping you wouldn`t find my edit and the subsequent ``misquote``!........you still don`t get it, do you?..........you are beginning to sound like john shooter, ``you stole my story!`` ....(secret window)

Pakistan will continue to be ruled by the Army, whether Musharraf dies or not..nothing will change..nothing has changed since they first came in power. END OF STORY.

Cynics, Biases and Psuedos aside I agree with what Romair and Ahmadzai say.
Bravo!!!
Cherios

``On Saturday, local residents said a helicopter gunship killed 12 civilians, including 4 women and 6 children, as they tried to drive out of the area. Military officials said the civilians were mistaken for militants`` - from NY Times

General Whore is using gunship helicopters against his own people. When (not if) this whore is brought to trial, God willing his sentence would be death by firing from gunship helicopters. In the 21st century, we Pakistanis cannot be subjected to a 1970s style dictatorship. This whore of the west might claim that he has done a lot of good for Pakistan. That is debatable. What is not debatable is this unpardonable crime of using artillary and gunships against his own civilian population.

However, the rulers come from people, regardless of whether they are elected or imposed. And the people of Pakistan at this moment could care less about the brutality in action in NWFP. The only action for them that matters is the one in Qaddafi stadium.

It is not entirely inconcievable that one day this General will use gunships in Lahore to put down protests. Maybe that will get our attention.

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hamidm #60 This is what I had written: ``The fact is that the forces of history carry much more weight than individual personalities.``

And this is how you presented it: ``for once tahmed is right ...``The fact is that the armed of pakistan carry much more weight than individual personalities``............. ``

This tells me you took the trouble of editing what I wrote to make it seem absurd, since you obviously could find nothing wrong in what I wrote. So you made up something absurd, like I said.

And now I quote from Sherlock:

You may then rightly wonder, Dr. Watson, on what caused Dr. Hamidm to spend his precious time editing the kindly gentleman tahmed`s views. In other words, what was the motive for this deed. Elementary, Dr. Watson. Dr. Hamidm was royally pissed. Because tahmed had been pointing to similarities between Dr. Hamidm and his arch-nemesis, Dr. Moriarity alias Urstruly Detriotwallah!! He had indicated how these two geniuses had fled their land, and sat in foreign countries wishing (for their own different reasons, hamidm for ridicule and urstruly for armchair martyrdom) continued strife and continued misery for their less fortunate compatriots. Hamidm did not like that. He thought he was better than urstruly. And so he pulled this editing job.

No one knows the evil that lurks in the minds of men (particularly these two, hamidm and urstruly). Only tahmed knows....ha! ha! ha!``

End of quote.

As for this intellectual honesty that you talk about: The day you are able to cut and paste what I wrote and then criticize what I have written (rather than stuff you made up and attributed to me, as per above) that day you can come and talk to me about intellectual honesty.

it is all a question of identity,

There are a lot of pakis who hope for mushy to metamorph into a mahatir, or at least some one who will have a vision for pakistan. The fact is that no pakistani has a vision. The most glaring example is the likes of ylh talking abvou the vision of jinnah. The man died more than 50 years ago, they talk of a dead mans vision. The fact is that pakistan was founded on a noxious idea of TNT and brought to reality by the colonial mind of didvide and rule.

There are no freedom fighters in pakistan, no one who occupies that land ever wanted it. hence the mohajirs, the onels who came looking for the assets left by the hindus have come to rule the country, they form the ekites of pak army, mushy being the most spectacular example of the mindset of this carpet baggers.
He created kargill invasion so that the armies position id secure. Now he is bombing the pakis in the birder, his own partbers in kargill invasion, so that he can get the money from the yanks.
There is no hope for pakistan till some one sorts out the pak identity question, or at least erase th epast, consign the TNT creator to his legitimate place in history, never again talk of his vision.
It is time that pakis talk of the vision of its own people, their dream of peace and prosperity, rather than the vision of one dead man. Replace it with the vision of millions.

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arjun 55,

US bombing of pakistan is the best scenario, it should have happened two years ago and by now like afgh