Some Hardtalk for Indians

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arjun,

I`m a scotch man mahself. can`t stand that sweet sh1t they call bourbon :))

Agree with most what you said.

mohar,
you`re an idiot. go watch big brother and the adults talk here

Ref arjun_m #54

[nitpick: When the American interstate system was built, America was already a super power having won a world war in the previous decade..]

But the US did have reasonably good roads for the traffic it had prior to WWII. Route 66 linked Chicago to Los Angeles. The Pennsylvania Turnpike (upgraded to Interstate-76) was built as a 4-lane divided highway in the 1940`s.

WWII war materiel moved primarily on railroads. Through rationing of gasoline, the use of private cars were severely curtailed during WWII freeing up the existing roads for the war efforts. Also, the US did not have the automobile explosion until after WWII when Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc., could return to peace-time automobile production.

Do not justify the 50-year Congress misrule by pointing out some examples - fake at that - in other countries. Perhaps we could all take comfort that in Tirana, they have mule-drawn carts just like we have camel carts in New Delhi!

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Of all the fundamentals needed for development, I would say that India now has 20% of them. Such as sizeable middle class, individual entrepreneurship ( Grocery shops, jewellery shops, etc, etc... ), sizeable demand for new goods which drives the need for supply ( thus entrepreneurship ). However, 80% of the ``fundamentals`` still do not exist. Such as a rigorous and extensive system for determining credit worthiness of individuals, good electric power generation, good highways, good governance and honesty ( no corruption ). Unless these things are achieved, India will never become a ``Super power``.

People who think that Good roads are not needed are just idiots who are not capable of seeing beyond their nose. I was in India couple of years ago and noticed an interesting thing. A kilo of Tomatoes were very cheap on one end of Hyderabad where as they were very costly on the opposite end of the city. The whole supply chain suffers because bad roads and bad infrastructure. And coming to the Tomatoes, it has long been my observation that, in India, the middle man really screws the Farmer as well as the end consumer. I sometimes feel that these middlemen should be hung from the nearest lamp post... anyway, i got off on a tangent here.

I think india is shining, in some of the middle-class grass-roots ways that is not so obvious. To say that the shine is only available to middle class is silly, since the middle-class is very large numerically, and growing as a percentage. There are food-banks (no not the friday khichadi in masjid or alms at the temple) run in chennai, where substantial dry-goods are donated by very middle-class family (1 bowl of rice a day type stuff), which allows honorable ways to suplement food needs of some needy families. This type of community spirit is due to the new confidence of the middle class. Similarly in a simpler case, many urban middle class patronised schools have PTAs (parent teacher orgs) which take considerable interest in the schooling. This is surely a new shine. The PTAs do seemingly simple things like ensure quality filtered water to kids etc., and demand (and get) accountability like never before. So, the difference is that the middle class is feeling empowered, and that is shine as compared to down-and-out the middle class exemplified in Laxman`s cartoons in 70`s and 80`s.

Gujjubania,

``the biggest opposition to outsourcing to India comes from so-called
Indian-Americans and British-Asians....``

Ah, another pearl of wisdom, I see. Care to tell us where you got that info
from ?

#44 by soundmeister on March 23, 2004 9:38pm PT
//...I detect undertones of defeatism, a condescending ``these natives will never do it`` in your rantings...//

Cut the cr@@p man - this ``Native Good - NonReseident Bad`` ( or vice versa ) line is so dumb that it doesn`t deserve a comment.

My company develops most of its software in B`lore, India ..... and we are going open our own outfit there next month....... So yeah - you can bet your a##$ I contribute a fair share to your economy........And I a still on H1 - which means I haven`t crossed over entirely as yet. Now - does that qualify me to rant on this newest ``India Shining`` thing you ``natives`` are so proud of ? ....... Thank you!

``India Shinging`` is a political rhetoric - and a good one at that, as far as such things go. Just like ``garibi hatao`` ( drive out poverty ). It is timely and puts a positive spin on things and seems to have captured the imagination of the nation. But it goes only that far - no further.

Just like ``garibi hatao`` - this latest slogan has all signs of being just another slogan ... unless the actual deeds match up to the rhetoric. That`s the clear and present danger - unless your hard-working ``natives`` wake up before it is too late.

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gujjubania

~~the biggest opposition to outsourcing to India comes from so-called Indian-Americans and British-Asians~~

I dont think so. British Indians are very happy to see India doing well and currently enjoy chatting in Hindi to ``Steven`` and ``Julie`` in Delhi or Bangalore while they are settling their credit card or electricity bill.

Where do you get your information on British Indians from dude?

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mohar11 #41
IMO, the River-linking project is pure pork-barrel. And it is potentially an explosive issue in interstate/center-state politics. The way BJP snuck it in is also extremely shady.

I once watched it being being discussed on TV, for the first time I saw some value in Arundhati Roy`s political junketing - she was the only one who opposed it in a whole panel of BJP/Cong/etc politicians.

Mohar,

India shining your a$$ as you rightly point out, but those of us who still live here and contribute our 34.5% to the economy are beginning to see changes- some great, some small, but positive increments nonetheless- that non-residents can`t (or don`t want to) see. It`s convenient to sit in your armchair, bourbon in hand and laugh at what`s wrong in India, based on your Olympic style once-in-4-year visits there. There are huge battles to be fought yet, but we will fight them. And this is exemplified more so in Bangalore than anywhere else, where citizens are getting more and more involved in administration than ever before. Infosys` Nilekani and Wipro`s Premji, just to quote the media-savvy ones, not to mention the likes of Jayakar Jerome, trying to make a difference from the inside, as it were. This is taking a long time, not very surprising, given that political exigiencies make what could be irritants for you and me- farmer suicides, river water distribution, rural development- take precedence over international airports, smooth motorways, metro railways and the like. So while it makes sense for **me** to whine about the way things are- given that I in my own small way contribute to it- I can`t understand why you need to scream yourself hoarse over it. I detect undertones of defeatism, a condescending ``these natives will never do it`` in your rantings.

Shut up willya....

#32 by gujjubania,

``.. Rajeev Srinivasan is my role model !!!!``

Good for U, gujju saab! He`s obviously a very smart guy, very knowledgable too. My junior in college (by 7-8 years I guess).

If only he`d quit being so `reactive`...and also temper his opinions!

Arjun #39,

We are simply venting here. Not much different from repeating the ``Paki t-shirt``
line ad nauseum, is it ? :)

Harimau #40,

Never have been to Cochin. And let us not even talk about the passenger traffic
in and out of Calcutta. Every 2 years, Brit Air and/or KLM threatens to withdraw
their whopping 2 weekly flights out of the city, and the CPM goes ballistic about
how this is a Central conspiracy against the state !! It is beyond pathetic.

At Bombay airport some years ago, the luggage conveyor belt stopped midway
through the process because IA went on strike. Can you imagine the ridiculousness
of the situation ? I had to use all my powers of persuasion to retrieve my bags.

There was report on river linking under ``Water Resources Minsitry``. The minister is Arjun Sethi - he is from my constituency. This man has been winning that seat for ages. Dumb as a door-knob - hasn`t done sh!t in that area.

I was stunned to see that he is in charge of the famed Multi-Bn$ river linking project? What the heck is he going to do? If this is the calibre of leader we elect and put them in charge high=profile projects - what do you expect?

Ref plats8 #38

[Why only blame Bangalore for not having a good airport ? All the 4 major metros
have airports which rank among the bottom 10 in the world. They are inefficient,
callous, corrupt, arrogant and abysmally dirty.]

Check out the Cochin Airport. Built and operated by a private company, it is neat and clean. Though a small airport by every measure (number of gates, number of flights, number of runways - one, etc.), last month it passed Calcutta in terms of passenger traffic! So much for the one-time Jewel of the British Empire!

Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai could have attempted to improve their airports instead of just changing their names.

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Mohar11,

Why only blame Bangalore for not having a good airport ? All the 4 major metros
have airports which rank among the bottom 10 in the world. They are inefficient,
callous, corrupt, arrogant and abysmally dirty. There was a series of articles on
Indian Express on this issue - obviously nothing came out of it.

#35 by yogiraj
///.. elaborate the problems... but also solutions that will work ...//

Solutions that will work are staring right on your face. This is no rocket science. Pathetic morons that you elect as ``leaders`` just refuse to see it or implement it.

How many years should it take to set up a international airport in the city you are trumpeting as your ``IT Hub``?

India is not a cesspool of evils - it is a cesspool of bullsh!t.

Other day - I met a guy who went to Hyderbad for his software venture. And he had to leave the city a day earlier than planned .... because there was going to be a big political rally the next day, involving some half a million people ... which was going to shut down the whole city for good. And this is the state of affairs under capable leadership of Chandrababu Naidu - the great white hope of India.

You are asking what is the solution? Well .... why don`t you march your million fools in a rally in weekends - just like rest of civilized people do?

And then there is this state orissa - not known for anything good that has ever come out from the damn place. But they did one good thing - they were the first state to attempt to reform/privatize their Electricity Board.

Now after some 6/7 years of fooling around - the whole venture has run aground. The american company AES which was handling it all - just quit. They couldn`t take the bull anymore.

The supply and service of power in the state as pathetic as ever. One of my relatives works in that venture - so he knows first hand the state of affairs. Corruption, thievery, chicanery, incompetence - it is beyond belief.

India shining - my a@$$!

Ravikanth,

Agreed India is cesspool of all the evils sirjee. No point argueing. Point to argue is what did/do/will you do eh??

Solutions with problems together jell well.

Where ever we find solutions, we should work it out. Where ever we could not ..we fail as of today. But there is future. Problems yes. But with potential solutions.

With only problems.... you have two choices on negative side ... Be a Rudalee in India..you know who? (FV.. only whine ... and be greatly admired by likes of you.. only whine. Whole India .. hindu.. BJP wrong wrong wrong ..Nothing wrong with Is... well only whine) or be a armchair NRI/Outsider.

Or elaborate the problems... but also solutions that will work

Yogiraj

Mohar

Those statistics about tourism are telling...India should really promote itself more to get in the dollar$ from the goray and Japanese...High end tourism...i have found that India attracts lots of these smelly middle class white students who want to come to India because it is cheap and moan if they have to pay for anything more than twenty rupees and dream of smoking grass in manali...it is almost like a rite of passage for them....we need to get rid of these cheapskate hippies and get high spending people in....Goa should be ethnically cleansed of its hippies for a start....get the money money money coming in $$$$$$

:-)

Romair

Am I introspective enough for you? Please let me know because you are the Hamlet of Chowk.

;-)

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This article is clearly substandard. coherence is not one of its virtues and the content is mediocre. wonder what the logic is behind the 4 stars!

If one wants a very detailed and nuanced view of India`s strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and pitfalls check out Arun Shourie`s (minister of disinvestment) series in the indian express.

the series is here

If you want to avoid the ads and slow loading then pick up this word doc that has the same content by clicking here

Chowkies must have read Rajiv Srinivasan on rediff sometime. He`s seems a borderline hothead who occasioanlly brings up some surprises.

Sometime back he wrote that throughtout the history of mankind till about 400 years ago...India was the richest country on earth.

Anyboby want to contest that?

Here is some more reality check:

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=43558
‘(We get) not more than 450,000 tourists (per year)... China gets 25 million... It is a shame’

Writer has raised very valid points and those who have never tasted ‘real’ India are crying foul. It’s alright that India is improving and at a good pace but what’s wrong in saying that everything is not well. Certain people pointed that writer doesn’t know how to write and should just remain a techie. Well, “techies” might not be “writers” but they sure know how to think logically and clearly. And why can’t you look at the content rather then how sentences are composed.
India is great country but there are many cheap weaklings the types who are in the front when they are with a group and pee in their pants when they are confronted alone. These are the people who never introspect personally so they do not understand the value of such exercise. Should we be proud on our achievements, yes, of course. Are we the best economically, socially….etc? No, but we’ll get there. But How?
Unless we don’t think or talk about ‘How’, how the hell are we going to get there?
Jai Hind.

So where is the hard talk?

IMO the issue is, this is ``hard talk`` for the urban middle class person who already has a secure salaried job, housing, transportation, education choices for children, and socio-economic security. Talking harshly about such a group`s (group A) thoughts and beliefs is being termed hard talk about India.

Just talk to your household help about HER predicaments and you will get real hard talk . Talk to an unemployed graduate or small enterpreneur or small farmer or a man trying to file a police complaint or street child and get real hard talk about India from this group B.

What is needed is to get group A more mobilised on its own behalf and in group B`s behalf. A `society` piece like this also helps.

Ravikanth,

Glad someone has finally stated the facts as they are (about myths 1 & 3). Although I`m not sure about some myths you mention as being so prevalent in india.
Anyway, i think the journey to success for india has just begun, but some people have already started behaving as if we`ve reached the destination.

P.S: Myth 5 sans the previous karma is republican party`s core ideology. The poor are poor because they deserve to be, are lazy and a load on society.
Adios

Very badly written article by someone who thinks that because he is an engg. graduate, he needs to opine. The proposed myths are held by none, as is/will be evident ...noone will fend these. I suggest the author write some good anecdotes instead, perhaps from Andhra Pradesh, exeplifying the points he wants to make.

well ..maybe Myth 2 is ok.. we have out Dr Sridhar and some other chowkies

Romair #10,

Pakistan and introspection? LOL!

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Ravikanth, all points that you have raised are valid. But it is beyond me why you think most of the Indians harbor these myths.

Ahmadzai,

I am not offended by the article, just find it generally uninspiring and not particularly
insightful. Nor would this article lead to any greater degree of introspection - it simply
doesn`t offer new talking points. All of these issues have been discussed numerious
times in the Indian media over the years. What the author has done, by and large, is
pick political catch-phrases and de-construct them.

I also wonder why you and Romair seem to indicate that this will offend people - surely
I can dislike/ignore something without being offended.

An excellent article the contents of which deserve introspection by Indians. However on this website, unfortunately, we have a fair representation of Indians who actually created the myths in the first place and in order to create a perception that myths were a reality, always propagated that abuses occured only across the border. These Indians will definitely be offended by this article.

If you thought that a body cannot exist without a brain, you should visit India. There is very little intellect here. The debates on TV are the most inane. I have heard that to get on talk shows and discussions, it is not your expertise on subjects but how well connected you are in the Delhi socialite scene that matters.

I live in Bangalore and stepping onto the street to go somewhere is akin to entering Dante`s inferno. Auto-rickshaws spew out toxic fumes due to adulterated fuel and emit such a racket that you would think they are going into orbit soon. Driving is like being in a video game that has one surprise after another popping out at you. Illiterate drivers cut you off every yards and flash blinding beams of light at you at night.

This article just proves my long held theory that techies are socially inept creatures who should avoid all attempts at civilised activities like writing, art etc.

It`s appalling-and amusing- that these guys who write billions of lines of code a year can`t write a simple sentence in English, the language each of them had about 18 years of education in.

When these fools attempt to engage in economic or political analyses, woe be on the poor reader! Typically these efforts involve the repeated usage of the phrase ``I think`` followed by an assertion that is equal parts ignorance, naivete and bluster.

Go back to your coding, nerd boy. Leave the thinking to those who live in the real world!

Oh-and Unca Romair? Shut up willya, he`s just a kid. BTW, were you one of those uniformed jokers trying their hardest to look like they were enjoying the cricket at Pindi the other night? Mushy looked like he`d been dragged there at gunpoint.

Ravikanth, some of the myths you are talking about seem to have been created by you. If we are letting our imagination go wild then I have got some more myths for you:

1) India is the richest country.

2) Indira Gandhi is the daughter of Mahatma Gandhi.

3) Indians are actually martians.

Who in his right mind would think that India has unlimited natural resources? The Indians you interact with must be absolute dunceheads.

I have seen the light!! I have seen the light!!
Oh, thank the Lord, I have seen the light!!!

Good job, Ravi. OPen discussion is very important, especially when a lot of silly things are being said (``India is an IT superpower``).

Have you followed Tom Friedman`s articles in the New York Times? He has combined appropriate consideration for what Bangalore represents with a lot of concern about the poor state of infra-structure and governance.

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Arjun:

Myth #6 is in the standard speech of every politician.

Great article, and a well needed one. Though there has been some improvment since 1947, there has been regression as well. Good to keep the eye on the ball.

Its good to finally see some introspection from the Indian side. I think this is the first time, in years, that I have seen an article that lays out such issues for India.

Introspection is something that leads to improvement. I think, it is introspection (to the point of cynicism) that has allowed Pakistan to compete with India, despite being tiny in comparisons based on size, and despite being decades behind India, when both started off in 47.

The intelligent Indians will internalize the points presented here. The over-confident ones will be offended by them.

Ravi

As Amit has said in Post # 1, visualize India in 1947 and Now. There is a sea change.

But it is good to be self-critical, that keeps the complacency away and an urge to improve.

You are right in Myth # 2. In general, the West continues to produce better human beings than the East. They are more compassionate and more tolerant than us. Our compassions & tolerances are confined and limited to family or groups.

I liked your simple fluid flowing expression style.

(Even Pakistan has greatly improved since 1947 in the social sectors - the area in which it has regressed is the cultural tolerance. But the society is in a perpetual ``Questioning Mode`` - in conflict and turmoil - still trying to get its basics right - that releases a lot of energy & is creative in some ways)

A thougtful article from Thomas L. Friedman

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/21/opinion/21FRIE.html

The guy has a point. The word ``superpower`` is being thrown around all over the place by stupid je@ks that pass as journalists in Indian media. What superpower? First get the power lines working.

As far as ``IT hub`` or whatever - we are still waiting to see an international airport (of international standard - not the dump they have in Bombay/Delhi) to come up in Bangalore. It is already six years and counting.

For reference - it seems even pakis have better airports in Lahore and Islambad.

Superpower , my a!$$!

And here is real life experience:

Last July - I called my friend in Bangalore and the line connection was particularly bad. My friend said it happens every rainy season. Rain disrupts the land phone system in what we call ``IT Hub``. I had to call him back on his cell phone which was better than the land phone.

Read the article by Friedman in nytimes today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/21/opinion/21FRIE.html?hp

``While India has the hardware of democracy — free elections — it still lacks a lot of the software — decent, responsive, transparent local government. While China has none of the hardware of democracy, in the form of free elections, its institutions have been better at building infrastructure and services for China`s people and foreign investors.``

Shour grapshe on thish board ;)

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maybe you can join arundhati roy and lie in front of a construction crane

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Hi Ravi,
You can look at the cup as half empty or half full. In 1947, India was coming out of 1000 years of imperial rule with a totally devastated economy that could not even produce a hairpin, millions used to die in famines every year, the country was divided along caste, communal, linguistic lines and it had gone through the holocaust of partition. Most people beleived that India would not last very long as one country. As compared to that look where we are today, when we can at least dream of being a superpower. We have managed to get our act together as a people, established democracy, secularism, a vibrant economy, civil society, strong national defence, a technological base that the world is getting envious about etc. Do we have problems ? Absolutely. But we are on the right track. We are restoring our honor and pride as a people based on our actions and the rest of the world is beginning to recognize us and respect us. Not bad for a half-century record.

As time goes by, those problems that you mentioned will get resolved because Indians are focused on economic growth. The economy will continue to grow and poverty will decline further and further. Besides our continuing strength in IT, we will develop other aspects of our economy, particulary on the infrastructure side such as roads, telephone, electricity etc. Already we have the national superhighway system being built that will connect the entire country along the same lines as the US system. There will be more to come because the people will demand them as a means to grow the economy. A spin-off of economic growth will be that social issues will get addressed such as discrimination, racism and communalism. Today a Punjabi marrying a Tamilian is a routine matter, tomorrow a hindu marrying a muslim will become routine. The reason is that an inclusive society leads to more economic progress and everyone wants economic progress. Even the foreign policy being pursued such as our warm-up with Pakistan is based on economic self-interest, since India wants to import gas from Central Asia and export products/services to that area via Pakistan. As far as taste is concerned, look at our rich cultural output (not counting Bollywood). Make no mistake, India`s best years are coming !!