Half a Night

Since when did writing and expressing become politically or intellectually correct/ incorrect?
Words, phrases, catchy or not, fitting into thoughts or thoughts fitting into them, doesnt really matter, as long as you end up saying something well enough and the reader associating with it somehow. No creative idea or thought is wrong...ever...it just has its suitability.

It’s requiem for spring smiles
as she gathers autumn leaves

It is so beautifully said, i feel , it leaves no room for me to ask the poetess to rephrase it. it might not be a great peice of work, but where ever it stands...it has its place.

Oooh

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catfight!

Samina:

I had left this board, but your last response (#47) needs to be replied to. You say, ``I`ll abstain from sharing my honest responses from you if it bothers you.`` Haven`t we had disagreements on several issues before, just as we have agreed on some? It was the tenor of your post #41 that bothered me, expecially since my response #35 to you was neither flippant nor dismissive, as you seem to have read it. I clearly mentioned that while you saw a few strong points, some might have seen many more and yet others none at all.

You have been here long enough and noticed that, unlike several other writers, I do enjoy interacting and am at pains to explain my political positions too, even when the opposition has been disgustingly offensive.

We will disagree with what constitutes a `successful` poem, but I have always been open to feedback. Especially, if it is honest. So do not abstain from giving your insights only if you think the content bothers me. It does not. So do keep writing whenever you feel like it...

Best,
F
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nooralain:

You have not directed any post to me, but you have made some interesting observations about the process of writing. And I am glad you have met some women like the one in the poem...they are for real. And, to use a cliched phrase, reality bites.

TC,
F

Farzana,

I think these pieces are evocative, clearly and imaginatively written and beautiful:

``You are too drenched to notice
she rains too. ``

``It’s requiem for spring smiles
as she gathers autumn leaves
in the dirt roads
squeezing her thighs.``

Its regular workshop/feedback/discourse practice to let a writer what works for the reader and what doesnt. You can check my ilog to see what my idea of a successful poem and they come in all forms. Also, please note-I have to accept the limitations of my own work.
I was under the impression that we were here to note all our literary successes and yes, offer constructive feedback.

I`ll abstain from sharing my honest responses from you if it bothers you.

rgds,

#44

Wow!!! That’s some serious chip!!! I guess it is just a matter of time before the cussing starts and choice words are hurled around.

I can understand the frustration. Everybody loves their creation and nobody wants to believe that they wrote something sub par. Some authors and writers have monstrous egos. They acquire that ego after doing some worthwhile writing, not after putting some ludicrous work together and posting it on a website for appreciation.

Are we just supposed to say “bhot Achcha! bhot Achcha!! Wah wah! Wah wah!!” to make the queen® happy?


I did not know that…

from #43

I would still maintain that the writer must rethink her approach while selecting words for her thoughts. She should think first and then see what works better, instead of selecting words first and then fit some ideas into them.

Poetry is not about creating catch phrases.

---

poetry is about different things to different people. it is first and foremost about expressing a thought. and that gentle reader, has been expressed here. you may not agree with the way it has been expressed. . .and you are entitled to that.

english may not be your first language, as it isn`t many of ours, but here`s the thing. .as readers and critics it is fine for us to not like a piece, and to find certain structural or phraseological (i know that is not a word) problems. fine! we were speaking of language earlier and this hard vs. soft and all that jazz. . .well here again we come across someone deigning to tell the poet how she should express herself. what she MUST do and what she SHOULD do in a way that appears more condescending than constructive, unfortunately.

i do not do poetry. . .i read it with not always the greatest comprehension. if it doesn`t make me think, or arouse my senses in any way, it doesn`t interest me. i think poets string their words together as they see fit, as long as they feel that a thought is being conveyed. once again, a particular thought was being conveyed here. . and there were various interpretations of that one thought.

you seem to imply that Farzana doesn`t think before she selects her words. . .i put to you that she did think about how these words were to be put together. . .the idea came before the words. i frankly don`t see how it could have happened otherwise. `oh i just think i`ll put `in rigor mortis` here because it looks good!` are we really going to say that`s how this creation came about?

and catch phrases come from poetry. . .where, prithee, do such phrases like `a thing of beauty is a joy forever` and `a little learning (knowledge?) is a dangerous thing` come from if not from poetry?

like i said i don`t write poetry. but i`ve read enough of it, and enough critical theory torture to reach the conclusion that some poets and writers will develop their own style. . that there is no such thing as purity in poetry or fiction anymore. . .and that there have been poets and writers who over the centuries have presented works to a public that either didn`t understand or just didn`t like the way the poet expressed himself/herself. is it really about building a wall?

soundmeister:

Chamkane ke liye nahin likha tha :) Try humour writing? Hum tau hanste-hanste likh letey hai sab kuchh.
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#41 by Saminasha:

[Farzana,
You are of course, more than welcome to write for yourself.

As this was posted on the front page, we are cued to take it seriously and try to understand what the various meanings of this poem are. It seems a bit disingenious to present something to the public and then say you really dont care if they understand what you are writing.]

Excuse me, but where have I said that I do not care? In fact, I have clearly mentioned that there are various interpretations and mine too is valid. I merely stated that I did not think I would revise it to lessen the readers` confusion. Anyway, this post of yours is clearly an afterthought. Since you have issues with almost every part of it, I wonder why you had rushed to post this earlier:

[#33 by Saminasha on March 29, 2004 8:28am PT
No, there need not be one interpretation...I just have a problem with the idea that anything strongly worded automatically means its ``lesbian``. And on top of that, whats up with all these folks with gaydar? Everyone`s an authority in attributing the most extreme behavior to a group they dont belong to...

The poem itself is confusing, although as I wrote before, it has some strong moments. ``Flaky crust`` is a phrase used for pie ads in the US, for example. It doesnt have the same resonances as other phrases in the poem.]

If you have not ``understood`` most of it, then I wonder how you found any strong moments at all.

PS: Surely you do not imagine I would need your validation to write for myself or to publish what I write?

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Re. #43 by HP:

Another afterthought! Your post #37 was attempting an analysis...I wonder why you waste your time doing so for ``catch phrases``.

Besides, don`t forget your initial problem with this piece of writing. Just riding on someone`s back is quite pathetic really...as for hamidm, he can defend himself rather well, being one of the sharpest shooters around.

About having a chip on the shoulder, you have not been here long enough to watch the ones of some interactors.

Stay around...you might acquire one yourself. I will not judge you by your interactions here since ``confusion`` clouds one`s vision and leaves little room for anything else to be noticed.
I mean, how can one say anything to someone who objects to women who use strong words?

Be happy...
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Faiza:

If you are still peeping in, I should have taken your response in full...while it is not about prostitution, your other point about marriage as legalised prostitution could be a valid reading and insight (though SM does not expect this from me!). Khair, phir kabhi...

Thanks everyone for interacting...I need to leave this board. I do not like hogging boards, even my own...

Thanks Saminasha!

The first sentence of my post #37 was initially “This poem, if it is a poem” I edited it out thinking that the writer builds a wall when unpleasant facts are pointed in her work or technique. We saw that in her response to hamidm where she tried to diss him in the guise of sarcasm. Now there may be some background to it as people on this board are carrying on with a persistence chip on their shoulders so I am not gonna go too deep into that.

I would still maintain that the writer must rethink her approach while selecting words for her thoughts. She should think first and then see what works better, instead of selecting words first and then fit some ideas into them.

Poetry is not about creating catch phrases.

correction:
does not help at all

Farzana,

You are of course, more than welcome to write for yourself.

As this was posted on the front page, we are cued to take it seriously and try to understand what the various meanings of this poem are. It seems a bit disingenious to present something to the public and then say you really dont care if they understand what you are writing.

Here are the questions I apply to any poem I read, printed or otherwise:

1. What is the stanza scheme? If it is free verse, is there an intentional pattern to the verse? It seems you are alternating seven lines with one or two sentences/phrases. Why are some of these lines questions, phrases and sentences? How do they work in the overall scheme of the poem?

2. ``the past a flaky crust
where she lives
on the charity of a slave:
memories in rigor mortis?``

I dont know what this means.

3.`` heat turning to steam
in the deep folds of
a ribbed, flavoured lie.``

I dont know what this means.

4. ``when you bleed her bits
and call her a bitch?``

Is the sudden rhyme scheme here intentional? Is this someone else`s voice?

The tone and imagery here seem to be hinting at something macabre....but the crypticism of the language and mixed metaphors doesnt not help at all.

A few points:
The theme is not transition; `Half a night` denotes incompleteness/interruption.

`Realise`, as it has been spelled, is not a typo; this writer prefers to use British English spelling rather than American English.

It is extremely sweet to transpose the two following statements: ``The use of strong words from a woman writer is surprising. The point was not to imply that the writer is gay (I still don’t get it. What’s wrong in being one?)``. But at the very beginning the tenor was quite different: ``#4 by HP on March 26, 2004 11:28am PT
Thats why I support gay marriages!
Never sleep with lesbians!!!

The cries of a man hater!!!!!
Right out of gay literature.``

This writer does not take ``surreal pride in her writing being depicted as necrophilia but goes in instant and vehement denial when gay influences are pointed in her work.``

She has used death so obviously as a metaphor that people might read it literally, and mortality does interest her; but she did not even think of anything remotely gay while writing and re-reading it several times, so she does not accept the accusation of ``gay influence``. It does not mean she ``goes into denial``, which denotes something entirely different.

(There is a shair that goes, ``Marney ke baad bhi meri aankhein khulee rahee/Aadat padee thi inhein intezar ki.`` Written by a male...)

She feels the need not so much to explain as to give her point of view, which is surely as valid as those of other interpreters. For more, it is in post #35.

She has in the past been called several names on such anonymous fora, so she does not take umbrage, but certainly does not want her work to be so completely distorted or to be told that use of strong words is unfeminine; though what the heck feminity/femininity is or ought to be is for women to decide.

Farzana, you being a Bombayite too will understand when I say ``Chamka nahin``. Like hamid, I am poetry-dyslexic. Actually that`s not quite true, I liked the sound of this effort, the cadence (oh how I love that word), but not quite sure of it`s about necrophilia (think not!), prostitution (you say not) or just that hackneyed one about a woman who dies every night raped by her beastly husband (probably, but not expected from you)....

Loved your post#36 though. You should try humour writing.

HP. . .
writing is an ego trip of sorts. .more for some, less for others. it also appears to be a similar journey for critics as well.

the use of `strong` words from a woman should not be all that surprising. one experiences strong words from women in the world that reflects where some of our poetry and fiction comes from. your reaction is even more surprising.

interesting the qualities we place on words when they come from different points of view, aren`t they. what are `soft` words anyway? why should a harsh world, or event not be described just as it is: harsh? why continue to stereotype women as using `soft words`? what, pray tell, is wrong with women talking about realities as they see them?

when a man beats up a woman physically and psychologically, how would you suggest the woman describe the experience?

this poem was confusing to me only in that i wished for a certainty to know exactly what `kind` of woman experienced this, knowing for half a certainty that this was about women that i myself know. not necrophilia or necrophiliacs. the fact that i myself could relate to this somehow made me wish it had not been explained.

and by the way roll over, when it is a command may be two words as well.

#33

``Everyone`s an authority in attributing the most extreme behavior to a group they dont belong to... ``

“anything strongly worded automatically means its ``lesbian``”

No not at all! But what are you implying with most extreme behavior? Are you equating being gay to extreme behavior? If so then you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.
It is okay if you know as you may belong to… nothing wrong with that.


The theme here seems to be transition as the title “Half a night” suggests and the writer has tried to create a transition “woman being haunted becomes haunted or the obsession turns into a dead-end from where she has to return”
The symbols of transition are rigor mortis, half-baked, flaky crust, requiem, and spring so she is basically true to her originally theme but the choice of strong words makes the whole thing sounds like a gay theme.

Is that incidental? Possible! I am not familiar with her other work. This may be a persistent theme and others may have related that to necrophilia.

The problem comes in when the writer attempts to make transition, an obsession. Obsession is not transition. It may not be there in the end, still obsession is permanent. She knows that too:

“It takes a lifetime
to realise (ignore the typo here)
obsessions are not certainties.”

From now on, the poem is a hotchpotch of ideas. I know I will be vilified for accusing the writer of picking ideas from all over the place and adding fluff to it. The addition of fluff has twisted the concept in the poem to the extent the writer is unable to explain it herself.

The use of strong words from a woman writer is surprising. The point was not to imply that the writer is gay (I still don’t get it. What’s wrong in being one?). The writer is clearly stuck in the thought. Most of the women writers use soft word for strong thoughts also. I think the trend among the writers from the subcontinent, is to use words that make an impression on the reader. This writer has taken that to heart and the use of words is more or less an ego trip now.

What amazes me is that the writer is taking a surreal pride in her writing being depicted as necrophilia but goes in instant and vehement denial when gay influences are pointed in her work.

Confusion all-around.

PS. Hamidm! I feel for you. “trying to say?.” Saaf Chuptay bhi nahin…..

Now hamidm (shoo, shoo...brushing away all his tortured moments with peacock feather broom, mumbling a verse that a winged female angel has whispered to me) has put ideas in heads...

1.A truck driver just approached me...
``Behenji, you will do vadaa kaam by writing angrezi shair-o-shayari on my backside. Request hai ji...``

``But Paaji,`` I tell him, ``My poetry is so confusing, no Rabba-shabba, no Horn Ok please, no Kake da Dhaba, no Maa da Ashirwaad, no Mera munda Pintoo...so why you are asking for this ulta-pulta thing from naacheez me?``

``Oye, simple ji...peoples reading from back, getting into deep soch ke kya hai ji, kuchh samajh nahin aata, then they not overtaking or jaan boojh ke honking, so I can listen to ``Yamla pagla deewana`` in peace.``

2. I was approached by the Municipal Corporation for their public toilets for the greater good of mankind project.

``Madam, very kindly I make humble suggestion to you to pliss write your versification on wall of mutralaya.``

I was stunned, ``But sir, you are a government servant, you should not encourage any writing on the walls. Besides, no one would read my poems anyway.``

Shaking his head up-down, side-side, he grinned, ``You know what madam, people looking at words, not understand, look carefully again with eyes becoming small and eyebrows going up...in this position they will also look down still concentrating.``

``So?``

``So what madam...you are ladies style, how to tell you...but you know mens not aiming properly always, so now with eyes in that position everything will fall in place. This is public service, pliss.``

``I am honoured, sir. Should I continue to do this on Chowk too?``

``Chowk? Ah, I know men pee-ing even in open..you think they will aim better with poetry? There it is not mattering, little drops here and there...there your writing won`t help concentration. But surely if it is on every wall, then they will have to hide behind bush...so it will help fertilisation and irrigation. Madam, you are true public spirited lady. You must get nighthood.``

Samina:
I write poetry to convey my feelings/state of mind, therefore, arrogant as it may sound, I do not feel the need to revise it to lessen the readers` confusion. One uses language in different ways -- when I have ventured to write poetry about what could be termed the `outside`, or larger reality, they are more straightforward (``Every Nightmare has a Reason``, ``Who wants peace, Baybeh?``). I would let people interpret it the way they want and if I have explained my version, it is only to give my interpretation...and perhaps add to the confusion!

You saw ``some strong moments``, some others saw many more perhaps and yet a few did not see any...if I reacted to it being termed gay literature it is because I found that such facile and deliberately misleading responses (``Words are too strong, not feminine at all``=woman is man-hater=woman is gay=woman has no sexual/feminine currency) perpetuate silly stereotypes. I have not felt the need to really respond strongly to those who think it is about necrophilia, because that could well be the literal reading.

Re. a phrase like ``flaky crust``, I am sure it is not restricted to American pie ads, but is used in everyday language too in most English-speaking societies. I felt it best conveyed what I was trying to say, that the past can crumble so easily and be probed and intruded into...Besides, on somebody else`s poetry board I took up for cliches if they are used innovatively or can best express something. Thanks anyway for the input...

PunjabiZulu:
[This is a literal poem about Necrophilia. About a man that likes to f**k corpses.
Right?]

No. But if it floats your boat, fine...heck, you can even imagine it done under a Banyan tree :)

temp:
[“Go, tell them they will always act like men; for they know naught! Go, tell them that She will (always) have the final word.”]

Alas, having the final word, she still has to live with the `illiteracy` of the unknowing.

On another note...``You`ve got to kiss a lot of frogs before you find the prince. But he probably isn`t going to be interested in some frog-kisser.``!

Love,
F