Let Cricket Inspire India and Pakistan

ahmadzai #190
``Well, I read your response more as (c) rather than (e) but that is OK``

That is not OK. ahmadzai, if you are going to be dishonest, we might as well stop here.

My answer to your previous question is NOT (c).

It is NOT OK for J&K police/Indian Army to kill people in custody.

(A) It is one thing for armed jihadis to attack military/civilians and military fire back, or for military to search for hideouts, arms and armed terrorists and a firing exchange to take place, in which jihadis get killed. Once jihadis pick up a gun they must expect to be hunted.


(B) But it is another thing altogether to take a person(usually unarmed) into custody and cause his death in custody. That is not OK. That is one type of complaint being made. Another set of complaints being made is that Army/Paramilitary force civilians to help them search for mines and terrorist hideouts. Then civilians get killed with soldiers either due to explosion of mines or due to crossfire between military and jihadis. This is not OK either. These are human rights abuses of civilians which the state must avoid.

(A) is the imperative of the situation and as long as armed jihadis operate, (A) is going to continue to happen. India is not going to let armed jihadis operate in J&K.

(B) is also likely to happen in such a situation, but still is not acceptable. The duty of the Indian armed forces and state police is the protection of civilians, who cannot be made hostage to the situation existing between armed forces and jihadis.

The allegations are that (B) is still happening, though the state government and the Army/Paramilitary claim they are trying to show more sensitivity to human rights abuses. As I said (B) is not acceptable, and this is where Indian citizens need to hold Army and J&K government accountable.

So my answer is (e) NOT (c). While I am always happy to explain what I mean, kindly donot ascribe to me what I have not said.

Coming to your 2nd question in #190.
My answer is (b).

You are actually asking the wrong person, here . BMasjid was demolished in Dec 1992, if I am not mistaken. I had been arguing against BJP and its Ram mandir campaign ever since 1988-1989. That was when the mandir movement was picking up steam and a nationwide collection of bricks for a mandir in Ayodhya began.

It is not only Advani and Joshi, but also the entire BJP/VHP/RSS which was complicit in the demolition, as was the Congress government at N. Delhi. Most are managing to evade responsibility, though some court cases against people from VHP? are still pending.

Sadna at # 179:

Thank you for answering 1st of my questions. I am grateful to you from the depth of my heart. Well, I read your response more as (c) rather than (e) but that is OK.

Now you will please understand that I responded to you 2 times on Hoor stuff. So you will give me at least 2 more answers (3 answers in all) before I answer your original query so that we break even.

My 2nd question:

It is well known fact that your Deputy PM Advani and Education Minister Joshi led a march on Babri Mosque, inciting the emotions of people through using religion, who brought the mosque down that is seen as an act of destroying India`s symbol of secularism. This subsequently led to Bombay riots resulting in the deaths of thousands of Hindus and Muslims, the scars of which can still be seen.

Your answer would be:

(a) This information is 100% incorrect. This never happened.
(b) This information is 100% correct and that Advani and Joshi or whoever was responsible should never have done it. Therefore, the whole act is deplorable and we regret the loss of life.
(c) This information is 100% correct, but we should remember that India belongs to Hindus, Muslims are 3rd class citizens, and therefore, the act was completely OK.
(d) While the information is correct, we should only punish those who committed excesses from both the sides. We should not make it a religious issue, since religion is being used by few from both the sides, who want to exploit it or
(e) Other than this. Please suggest what?

#186

my query was with regard to the attempts by the BJP to ``unfairly paint Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism``.

Do you or do you not agree that the Pakistani goverment sponsored terrorism againt the people of India?

#187 by satyamvada
//....Then by equating the two he claims both the Indian Govt and Pak Govt are bad.
thus justifying the jihad against India...//

Closet-Jihadis like tahmed are not only product of a jihad-oriented education system, they are also integral part of Paki Military and the establishment. They owe their existence to that system.

So - in their own ways they will always work for that system - always seek ways to nourish it. If one attempt fails, if the current scenario doesn`t favor a particular policy - they will seek other ways.

Before 9/11 - Jihad was openly part of their lives and policies. Now that Jihad has been exposed and condemned world over - these guys have retreated into their closets and are paying lip service - ``Jihad is morally wrong``. But in their heart - they don`t beleive so. They will seek other ways to implement their agendas and ideologies.

Tahmed is after all a product of the Pakistani education system. He belongs to the
same class of people who rule Pakistan today.

Notice how he equates Pakistan jihad policy conducted and finetuned over decades
with the failure of the gujarat-state government to impose law and order for the first
48hrs.

Then by equating the two he claims both the Indian Govt and Pak Govt are bad.
thus justifying the jihad against India.

This should be a lesson to naive Indians (like Amit) who think that by playing cricket
and beacause some Indian and Pakistani punjabis eat same kind of naan - we will all
become friends.

Pakistan and India have very two different institutional value systems - that is the
difference.

bongdongs #182 Sure. Those three instances you pointed out do provide a prima facie case for Pakistan government involvement. And even if proper investigation indicates no direct involvement, almost certainly these can be attributed to the misguided policy of fighting a proxy war through mullahs. And that policy I have always opposed as being morally wrong, since in my view human life is more important than any territorial issues.

This does not in any way mean the Indian government is blameless either. Indeed, in Gujerat the government complicity in the burnings of family was as bad as the worst atrocities supported by the Pakistan government.

My criticism in both cases is limited to specific policies or actions of these two governments, and does not extend to anything broader than that: I dont blame ordinary people on either side, and I dont consider the Indian or Pakistani state to be inherently bad as a result of misguided policies, or errors of omission or commission. Hope this makes sense to you.

CoolAL
//...if they intrduced ``Strategic Retreat`` as a sport in the olympics, you have the Gold Medal locked up...//

Heh Heh - you got that right :) Ahmed mian is quick as a fox and runs for his hole at the first hint of defeat.

# 178

LOL!!!

Dude!!!!!

What is this?!!!! ANOTHER strategic retreat?

I have to tell you if they intrduced ``Strategic Retreat`` as a sport in the olympics, you have the Gold Medal locked up. If this were ranked like chess, you would be a Super Grandmaster....

This is getting boring dude, these damn yindoos -- and yindettes -- are calling your bluff again and again and all you can do is puff up and retreat?

[YAWN].... Go ahead dude, close your eyes and pretend that you butt is not being seriously kicked and the pain will all go away....

:-)

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Let Cricket Inspire India and Pakistan ...

to what?

go for each others` throats??

So In light of all you have learnt (hopefully) on this board would you care to rewrite post 117, Mr TAhmed?

tahmed32 #178
``. Please cut and paste what I wrote to back your claim. ``
I could do that, I will not. Firstly, you show no comprehension or honesty about what I do post and I have no interest in proving myself to dishonest people. And secondly, where did you cut and paste to back your claim that I am always `maligning Islam`.

`` I dont wish to waste further time with you``
Kindly stick to this resolution so that we stop wasting each other`s time.

ahmadzai #177
I don`t think the act is POTA(please check your sources). The allegations are that custodial deaths still take place. These are apart from the daily attacks from and on terrorists(including announcements that Hindus will be killed in revenge for Hamas leaders death).

But the situation is not what PTV reports daily - which lumps every casuality of terrorist attacks into `Bharti fauj ne mazeed xyz Kashmirion ko shaheed kiya`. For example, when terrorists kills some ruling political party members, or other civilians died in grenade attack, PTV chooses an arbitrary number as casualty and attributes all to Bharti fauj. So the answer is (e).

According to me Indian government`s idea of allowing ``legitimate`` travellers to move freely between the two Kashmirs will be helpful in this regard.

Back to maligning Islam and maligning Pakistan by asking about Pakistan government`s houri policy.

Sadna at # 175:

Since you are now dying for an answer, being a typical sub-continental man of honor, I will swallow my pride and again very patiently reply to the entire post, but subject to a condition. You will first answer only few of my questions.

Question: Even though Pak-India peace process has started, Indian military under POTO is continuing to kill innocent Kashmiris in Indian held Kashmir in custody and fake encounters. Do you think that
(a) This information is 100% incorrect. No body is being killed now
(b) This information is 100% correct and that the Indian Government should not do it
(c) This information is 100% correct, but those who are killed are Jihadi terrorists and therefore, it is completely OK to kill them
(d) While some of them are Jihadi terrorists, some innocent may also be getting killed in the Indian operations or
(e) Other then this. Please suggest what?

Your answer would be?

sadna #174 you wite ``Abuse me as much you wish``

I didnt abuse you, so please do not lie. Please cut and paste what I wrote to back your claim. I didnt read the rest of your post because I dont wish to waste further time with you. Have a good day.

plats #168 I basically agree with what you are saying. Actually the India-Pakistan peace process is moving faster in economic areas as I understand it, than in political areas. Businessmen (who are generally too busy to spend their time ranting on chowk) on both sides are moving surprisingly quickly and in quite imaginative ways as I understand it to take advantage of the peace process to make money in terms of making deals to fill export orders. The political process will obviously go slower, and will no doubt get stuck a few times. Ultimately I think it will be this economic momentum that will keep the political ball rolling. As for the rest (cricket matches and cultural exchanges), those are fine obviously, particularly because they encourage those decision makers who are already inclined towards normalizing relations. But the engine I think is economics.