Open Letter To Dina Wadia

arjun at # 27:

I pity you. Not that you are only a person with no brains, you are a baysharam too. I asked that you produce two posts from me in support of an earlier argument. Not only you did not produce any evidence, you wrote something in anger without any sound economic reasoning that proves that things are not moving as per your expectations.

Surely, Pakistan is on the right track e.g. it is about to become USA`s non-NATO ally and is not isolated, that is making you more and more frustrated.

:-)

Romair #2

{
Could someone explain exactly why Dina Wadia is a celebrity
}

I am kind of surprised by this comment. She is not admired for who she did but because she is the daughter of our Quid – plain and simple. Haven’t you known any one in your personal life who you liked very much and then you respected his (or her) children just because they were the ofsprings of this admirable person. Can you imagine the uproar from the people had she not received the proper courtesies. Also what made you think that Quied was constitutional dictator?

Yasir Sahib.
Weather or not Quied had disowned his daughter is irrelevant. I don’t think she disagreed with his policies though. I remember reading in “freedom at mid night”, that on August 14th, 1947 she had two flags posted on her balcony, one of Pakistan and the other of India. The most important thing that was written in Quied’s tomb by his grand son – “… I will come back to see his dream come true”.

Now about Ms. Wadia and Jinnah’s family in general. Ms. Wadia had married Mr. Naville Wadia. Quid was worth about Rs. 10 million (1 Crore), yet he left her only 200 thousand (2 lacks). He made sure that his sisters and brother were taken care of (with a monthly expenses) and left all his properties and investments for Ms. Fatima Jinnah and several educational institutes (based Alligarh, Delhi, Peshawar and Karachi).

Jinnah was so against nepotism that he asked his brother Ahmed Ali Jinnah to not migrate to Pakistan saying “You are brilliant lawyer.., but every time you will appear in a court of law the judge will remember you as my brother”. His brother, who was married to a European lady never migrated to Pakistan and their only child is now settled in Switzerland. All of his sisters migrated to Pakistan. The last one, Ms. Sherreen Jinnah passed away some time in 1980s. With the exception of Ms. Fatima Jinnah, who ran in the Presidential elections in 1960s, none of his family members ever used his name for political or economic gains. Even today one of his closest relative Mr. Liaqat Merchant lives in Pakistan as successful lawyer.

Ms. Wadia herself is not settled in India, but in New York where she has been living for at least two decades, her address and phone number are listed in white pages. She has a son ( Nusli Wadia ) and a daughter who also lives in New York. Mr. Navielle Wadia, though was a very successful business man in own right, migrated from India and settled in Switzerland, he passed away in 1990s.

Now a word about the Wadias. Nusli Wadia might be a brilliant and successful businessman, but by no means he is a self made man. Wadias are an old Parsee family, who became rich at least a couple of centuries ago. Before joining the textile business, they had tried other ventures like ship building etc. It is said that the US national anthem was written on a ship built by the Wadias, and Hong Kong’s accession document to UK were also signed on ship build by the Wadias.

Mantolives #various:

You need to get out of your habit of considering yourself more Pakistani than anyone else. You, Urstruly and Rozaiba have a habit of considering yourself the ultimate patriots/mujahids. I am not quite sure what you base this on. It is very difficult to debate something with individuals who are already convinced that they have a monopoly on Islam, or on Pakistan, or on Jinnah, or on democracy, or on patriotism. They turn into self-propogating idelogues.

My whole argument was based on the fact that I don`t think people should be made State guests, because they are the children of someone - even Jinnah. I had nothing to do with liking or disliking Dina Wadia. Apparently, my local education taught me enough to understand this. As did the local education of so many other interactors on this board, including Ras. NHK and ahmadzai. Your foreign education could not pick up on this. Please feel free to debate this point, i.e. you think people should be treated as State guests if they are the kids of someone, who may not even be alive, or not in a State position.

Based on this, would you agree that Bilawal Bhutto should be a State guest? Do you think the children of Amitabh Bachan should be state guests? Why not the children of Liaqut Ali Khan? What about Jinnah`s grand-nephews who are actually in Pakistan? What about the children of Ghaffar Khan? What about the next generations of Sir Syed Ahmad? What about the kids and grandkids of Allama Iqbal?

This is the kind of hero-worship we need to get out of. It is a slave mentality. Jinnah was a great man. His daughter may (or may not) be a great woman. But she does not meet the criteria of being a State guest. Please debate this, without trying to let out your personal frustrations. You are in your twenties now, and cannot be given the benefit of being a kid any longer.

Now over to the false statements, which are becoming too common in your replies. Kindly point out where I stated the following. If you cannot point it out, then please let me know why you make such false claims in your replies. It is unethical.

Lie No. 1: ``... `Jinnah`s daughter is the enemy of Pakistan``

Where did I say Jinnah`s daughter is the enemy of Pakistan. In fact, I stated the following: ``I am sure Dina Wadia is probably a wonderful person.....I am happy Dina Wadia and her son came to Pakistan to watch the match``

Lie No. 2: ....Romair is the product of the local educational system...

How do you know what educational system I am a part of. My guess is I have studied in non-Pakistan systems far longer than you have. Including a large part of my elementary school years. But that is neither here nor there. I think Pakistan`s educational system, though wanting, does have some good schools. I don`t put down Pakistanis who have a local education, or an Urdu-medium education. Many of them make far better points than yourself......

Lie No. 3: ``he has been taught such brilliant lies``

How exactly do you know what I have been taught or not taught. Can you name some schools I have gone to. Obviously you don`t know. Yet you are bent upon making a statement on the basis of what you don`t know.

Lie No. 4: why are people like Romair and my colleague afraid of Dina Wadia``

Where did I say I was afraid of her. Why would I be afraid of her? Where did fear come into it? Once again, I stated, `` am sure Dina Wadia is probably a wonderful person.....I am happy Dina Wadia and her son came to Pakistan to watch the match``

Lie No. 5: ``they are afraid that she will tell the truth and shatter the myth of the `Islamic` ideology and `Islamism` that they want to weave around Pakistan``

Where did I state that I want to create a myth of Islamic ideology around Pakistan. Please highlght. I don`t have any kind of myth of ideology for Pakistan. That is what separates me from people like yourself. I consider myself an average Pakistani citizen, who feels he has no right to dictate his own views onto everyone.

For the time being, this is enough. You replies, as usual, are full of lies. But I will let you respond to these, before I point out the others (which I will definitely point out, to ensure, you start telling the truth). Another thing I would like to point out:

``Jinnah`s dream has been shattered by the mullahs and the faujiz and the Romairs of this world``

I think Jinnah`s dream has been shattered by lawyers and potential lawyers who lie too much. And will go to any extent, including lying, to try to prove their ideologies. Jinnah must be rolling in his grave, if he found out the following:

1. A relative of his was give State privelages just because she was the relative of an important person. I am sure he did not want that kind of a Pakistan

2. Lawyers and potential lawyers attempting character assasinations, through lies, instead of debating issues

3. People making the following statements, ``I cherish even the ground Jinnah`s daughter walked on...`` I doubt Jinnah ever made such a statement about anyone.

I would actually be very interested in meeting Jinnah`s daughter. I would be interesting to get into a conversation with her, about her father. She is probably a nice person, I assume. But should not be a state guest, unless she does something to earn it. But not anyone whose walking steps I would cherish (everyone is a human being in my book). She is a human being, living a life, in a manner she has a right to live (just like the rest of us).

I do wish she would have taken the trouble to visit Pakistan, regularly, if she was concerned about the place. Usually, when you are concerned about something or someone, you visit them, regardless of the condition they maybe in. In fact, you visit them more often if they are not doing well, if you are concerned about them. Doesn`t matter if you are the daughter of its founder or the daughter of a sweeper who migrated to that place. My guess is Jinnah would have wanted her to visit Pakistan regularly......But that is a separte debate.

Given some of the weird ideas being put forward by people on this board, especially by Romair and Mohar... I think we need to put up some facts:

1) Jinnah never disowned his daughter. Even the ideologically motivated Islamist author Akbar S Ahmed accepts this.. Jinnah`s last will and testament is evidence enough.

2) Dina Wadia is not a citizen of Pakistan OR India. She is a British citizen and is living in the US. She has never opposed Pakistan as some have put up here. In fact she went on the record congratulating her father on the acceptance of the Pakistan principle. Even in the game (5th One Day International) when asked she responded that she was sad that Pakistan was losing.

3) Nusli Wadia s/o Neville Wadia is the heir to the Wadia`s fortune which was big even before partition. Even though he is very close to people like Jaswant Singh, and was in the past a close friend of Sanjay Gandhi... Nusli Wadia remains a British citizen like his mother.

4) Nusli Wadia is not a Muslim... he is a PARSI... as for Dina Jinnah ... she is very private about her personal faith so we don`t know.

5) Both Dina`s and Nusli`s complaint against Pakistan has been that it has not fulfilled the promise that it held ... of a modern secular Democratic state that Jinnah wanted it to be. It is therefore that they opposed Musharraf`s attempt at the acquistion of Jinnah house.


So all the talk on this board just pure nonsense...

-YLH

Why are they afraid of Dina Wadia... why of an old woman of 86?

The state of our education is that we feed our youth lies and more lies. Romair is the product of the local educational system... he has been taught such brilliant lies as `Quaid-e-Azam disowned his daughter`... `his daughter foresake Pakistan`... `Jinnah`s daughter is the enemy of Pakistan`... it is to be expected ofcourse... remember Muslims are the people who even murdered their Prophet`s grandson and then used Islam to justify it.

Jinnah never disowned his daughter. Even after Pakistan he was constantly in touch with her contrary to what the Islamic idealogues will have us believe. He left her a large amount in inheritance ... and the whole `aaq` business is the imagination of the people who wrote Pakistan`s history after 1979.... but even a pathetic ideologically motivated scholar like Akbar S Ahmed accepts that Jinnah never disowned his daughter... in 1976 Bhutto tried hard to bring her to Pakistan ... but she didn`t, because she was heartbroken at the turn for the worst our country had taken. Why did she choose this point... maybe this is an endorsement of the peace process between our two nations... after all Jinnah had envisaged not two nuclear states at logger heads but two peaceful and prosperous states working together for the greater good.


As everyone can imagine, I was very excited when I found out about Dina Wadia`s visit... I told a colleague of mine who teaches Pakistan studies ... he replied `so what should we do ` ... why are people like Romair and my colleague afraid of Dina Wadia... they are afraid that she will tell the truth and shatter the myth of the `Islamic` ideology and `Islamism` that they want to weave around Pakistan... she would make it clear that Jinnah`s issue was always that of a minority`s rights, and never a theological question... they thought that with Jinnah`s death and Fatima Jinnah`s murder they had forever buried Jinnah ... they obviously hadn`t counted on Dina`s coming back .... now they are afraid their mythology will come tumbling down. Hence all the lies about her.


Call me an emotional fool ... but much like Rozaiba, I cherish even the ground Jinnah`s daughter walked on...

at Jinnah`s tomb .. Dina wrote:

`It is a sad and wonderful visit. May his dream for Pakistan come true`...


Nusli wrote:

`My dream to come here has come true. Now I will come back to see his dream come true`.

Jinnah`s family has finally spoken ... the dream has not been fulfilled ....Jinnah`s dream has been shattered by the mullahs and the faujiz and the Romairs of this world.... time to reclaim that dream. I just regret that they were `state guests`.... maybe this was a way of the Government to keep a check on what they do while they were in this country.

-YLH

PS:

As for Romair`s commentary on Pakistan`s history ... as the old saying goes : Little knowledge is dangerous.

It is amazing that a few months ago this guy was jumping up and down at my article ` dislodging the dictator` because I had suggesting that Benazir needs to shape up to play a role similar to what Fatima Jinnah played against Ayub... but today he is drawing direct analogies between Jinnah himself and Benazir Bhutto.

... thank god we exported him to Canada.

I think hindus should be ashamed of themselves and also those who call Quaid-e-Azam a constitutional dictator - its just height of arrogance and baysharmee.

Quaid-e-Azam was the man of law and he knew very well that only thing that whiteman is scared of is his own law. It is also the Achilles heels of the whiteman. On the other hand Gandhi was a charlatan in every sense of the world. The way he once tried to malign the good name of Jinnah thru conspiracy and skulduggery is a well known fact.

Once Quaid-e-Azam was travelling in a train from Bombay to Laknow when Gandhi sent a floozy into his compartment to tarnish the image of Jinnah. This woman screamed rape as the train stopped at the next railway station. Soon the compartment was flooded with police, reporters, and passengers while Jinnah calmly kept sitting and smoking his cigar. The gora police inspector asked Jinnah that he should come to the police station. Jinnah calmly asked ``For what?``

``This woman claims that you tried to rape her`` said inspector.

Jinnah replied ``Well, Inspector, are you looking at this cigar in my hand?``

Inspector nodded

``Well, can`t you see, half of it is in ashes and still intact? Would you please explain to me how can I attempt to rape this woman and still manage to keep the ashes intact``

The inspector realized that and apologized to Jinnah.

While inspector was dragging the floozy to the police station people heard him say `` O`blimey This godamned Gandhi will have me demoted someday ``

#28 by arjun_m on April 1, 2004 8:49am PT
//...I am enjoying every minute of the coverage of how Jinnah`s own daughter and grandson chose to live in India and made their fortune there...//

Exactly. That is one ``core issue`` that Pakis are hard put to explain. Why did Jinnah`s own progeny stayed back in the bad hindoo land ..... how come she and her family is so successful - better than any paki has ever been? How does this gel with Dad`s theory that muslims are going to be oppressed by bad old hindoos.

Isn`t it a sweet irony - that the daughter life`s achievements comprehensively invalidates Dad`s life`s work?

rozaiba
//...Qaid-e-Azam opposed anything unconstitutional....//

That doesn`t explain my original contention - how does one change the status quo without challenging the existing establishment. How are you get freedom from oppression if you don`t challenge oppressors?

What constitution was he so fond of?

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harimau #22: ``Forked tongue again, I see. Aren`t you the guy who was willing to let a cum-bucket like Sonia become prime minister of India (don`t make me dig up your post but I will if I need to) but now is against a member of the lucky-sperm club staying for a few days as a state guest?````

There is a huge difference between Sonia Gandhi and Dina Wadia. Sonia Gandhi is the leader of the opposition of the second largest party in India. On top of that, she is an Indian citizen, living in India. She is a part of the state. She should get state privelages from India. And if she becomes PM of India, and comes to Pakistan, she should be a State Guest in Pakistan. Perhaps, even if she is leader of opposition. As should Vajpayee and Advani.

Dina Wadia is not even a citizen of Pakistan, nor in any kind of an official position in India. In addition, I have never heard of her doing anything for Pakistan. In fact, I do not know of anything Dina Wadia has done, other than being the daughter of a very successful man, and the wife of another successful man. Nobody would know who she was, if she wasn`t Jinnah`s daughter.

She has infact, gone out of her way to reject her father, and everything he stood for. I have no problems with that, it is her personal matter. But how in the world does that qualify her as a state guest?

If she were to move to Pakistan and become leader of opposition of Pakistan, then she should definitely get state privelages. If she were to gain an equivalent status in India, like Sonia Gandhi, then she should be one, also. But not in her present capacity.

Daler Mehndi deserves to be a state guest in Pakistan more than she does, since he does charity shows for a cancer hospital in Pakistan.

nazarhayatkhan #19: ``It is a good cultural trait....

Only at times, we do go overboard and even make Prime Ministers out of them.``

I think this is a good trait at the family level. If I know you, then if I ever run across your son, I should assist him, if I can, even if I don`t know him. And vice-versa That is fine.

However, it should never be acceptable at the national level. If one is going to go that far, then why not give a a Nishan-e-Pakistan medal to Dina Wadia? Why not give her the key to Pakistan? Why not give a 21 gun salute? Why not put her picture on the 100 ruppee note?

Countries do not belong to any one person. Not even to their founders. And definitely not to the children of their founders. Specially if the children, themselves deliberately did not want to have anything to do with the country.

At a political level, this is Pakistan`s achille`s heel. Children take over from their parents as MNAs, MPAs, and even PMs. This is why the political system is a mess. This is why the more stable institutions, like Army, Civil Services etc. are the ones, where the son does not automatically step into the father`s shoes. Similarly the more stable political parties like Jamaat-e-Islami (like them or hate them) are the ones where the son does not automatically take over from the father.

However, the major parties, like PPP and PML, are all heridatory. I can make a 5 ruppee bet that Bilawal Bhutto will be the Prime Minster of Pakistan, and he will stand against Hussain Nawaz. Unless, of course, Dina Wadia comes and applies for the position.

plat8 @ # 17:

My hard luck. I am always stuck with responding to you with an explanation ;-)

The last time I responded to you on Pakistan not being torch bearer of all Muslims, I am still stuck on that topic with Sadna.

All I meant to say in the lighter vein was that Pakistan is Wadia`s Mayka, while India is Susraal.

Also that more Indians leave messages like arjun at # 16, more it proves how extremist Indians resented her visit.

Shoosh man!

arjun at # 16:

1. That there are few billionaire`s in India and none in Pakistan proves that Indian wealth is concentrated in few hands while in Pakistan there is more equal distribution of whatever we have. This is something acknowledged by National Geographic when it covered the untouchables of India.

2. On Premji, read Farzana`s contention.

3. Premji most surely would like to deal with Pakistani companies once peace process moves ahead. If he is Agha Khani, then there is 100% probability that he will deal with Pakistani counterparts of his bratheri. I remember the news that few Indian companies are already interested in collaborating with their Pakistan counterparts.

However, in response to this post, I expect you to highlight two of my posts that I challenged you to quote (cricket interactive board). Nothing more, nothing less

Ref Romair #15

[His daughter never bothered much about Pakistan. Nor apparently about her own father (and I guess the feeling was mutual). That is her own personal choice and business. But, I think one needs to do something for a country, or be a foreign state dignatary to gain a state guest status. One cannot just do it through a membership of the, ``lucky sperm`` club.]

Forked tongue again, I see. Aren`t you the guy who was willing to let a cum-bucket like Sonia become prime minister of India (don`t make me dig up your post but I will if I need to) but now is against a member of the lucky-sperm club staying for a few days as a state guest?