Criminals -- or Victims of an Unjust System?

Beena:

would you have comparative prison figures for men? and young offenders (whatever the critieria under 18 or under 16)?

....t

I am sure that the prolific poster like tahmed, ylh and the urstrulies will be basent on this board. It will too hard for romair to accept the truth, that it is legal in pakistan to kill women.

Beena:

Thanks for a very informative article. As a first major step, we need information and exchange of information.

I believe that the process of getting rid of negative aspects of Hudood Ordinance has started. The elected Government of President Musharraf and PM Jamali has started the discussion process amongst the intellectuals and the women parliamentarians to inform each other and the public of the negative consequences. This information would increase the awareness of the public against a practice of the dark ages. I think this is the way to go. Slow and steady wins the race.

The other option is to go for a radical change. A radical change will definitely lead to a radical opposition. At present, Pakistan is not capable enough to take on yet another Change given the geo-political upheavals confronting us.

Therefore, information that leads to knowledge that leads to wisdom will lead us to earn riddance from the negative aspects of the ordinance.

The barrage of anti-Islam articles from non Muslims like Beena Sarwar continues. If Islam really disgusts you, who is stopping you from turning into a Kafir?

The problem with Zina, Hudood or anything related to Islam is not the problem itself but how Muslims implement the problem for themselves and for others. Killing of women and kafirs is legitimate if the killing is carried out properly and the meat is not wasted but distributed to poor Muslims.

``The elected Government of President Musharraf and PM Jamali`` Hmm thats not the way I would refer to the current government Mr. Ahmedzai.

A lot of people forget that the problems that we face whether Hudood Oridinace related or otherwise have nothing to do with Islam or any other religion. The biggest problems are lack of democracy, corruption, lack of justie and the nations apathy to injusties being committed.

Beena,

That is indeed a very informative article. Good job.


And for Ralph #3: Being a humanitarian does not make one ``anti-islamic``.

``Killing of women and kafirs is legitimate if the killing is carried out properly and the meat is not wasted but distributed to poor Muslims``

Your comments suggest that you are neither a muslim nor a humanitarian. Islam does not allow any killings, be of kafirs or of women. People involved in killings (or fantasizing about it) are really exercising their primitive instincts of aggression.

It is unfortunate that many so-called religious people in our society suffer from hatred of humanity.

Congrats, Ralph! You obviously like to lump together everything Islamic. I`m assuming that for some reason you brought up the distribution of meat after Baqra Eid in the same line as you mention that its ok to kill people.``

Or are you suggesting we eat the meat of supposed evildoers? I`m pretty sure that`s not in the Quran.

And I`m not sure that the Quran goes out of its way to enumerate the way and whys of killing women in particular.

And, of course, I`m assuming that you ARE a Muslim and not Jay/Arjun et al taking the piss out of us.

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These are the hypocrisies that are simply depressing.

It`s great to highlight them, since in Pakistan there are many who believe that the western media tries to portray a bad picture of their culture and every thing is hunky dory. Many have a very hard time dealing with the fact that issues like this exist in their society.

Well, the irony is that all the governments have more time, energy and resoucres to invest in cricket matches and other hull gulla stuff, but when it comes to taking the bull by its horns, it takes them a decade to even get to the bottom of any major issue.

Ms. Sarwar,

Can`t argue with the facts. This is a good bit of reporting. I hope it is read by the right people. I think that for a previous article of yours, I had remarked about the nature of human rights rhetoric in Pakistan. If you can recall that point, allow me to continue in that vein: It would be great to read an investigative peice on Islamic interpretations towards adultery and rape. One of the Question which could be asked is whether the Hudood Ordinance in its current form comforms with Islamic law and whether Islamic law.

Keep up the good work.

Rafay Alam

``Killing of women and kafirs is legitimate if the killing is carried out properly and the meat is not wasted but distributed to poor Muslims. .....???????``


never thought guys could justify cannibalism like that? This is sheer satanism.

Slightly unrelated, I think either the private sector or government should set up a National Female only law firm on the lines similar to the First Women Bank.. which should have offices wherever there is a High Court or Supreme Court bench and before anyone says Asma Jehangir`s group..that doesn`t have offices nationally and it is politicised ..

In re Zakkk #12:

I don`t think the government setting up an all-female law firm would be of any use. And, the private sector is too competive for a women`s only chamber. AGHS (which is an acronym for the names of Asma Jehangir, Gul Rukh, Hina Jilani and Shehla Zia - imagine if they had named it HAGS!!) remains operational as a law firm because of its narrow scope of expertise: criminal and family law. And as far as I know, this aspect of Ms. Jehangir`s workk remains unpoliticized. Ms. Jehangir and Ms. Jilani may be called politicized for their work with the HRCP or other civil society and women`s rights groups, but not because of their law.

Nonetheless, Zakk, the point is valid. An all-woman`s law firm would attract female clients if only because, given Pakistani society and it`s ``norms`` (and I`m taking a wild chouvanistic guess here), women would find it easier to communicate to other women. However, the suggestion attracts some practical problems.

First, an all woman law firm would not attract wealthy clients. The upper classes are not given to litigating their private lives. So economics is a factor, and an all-woman`s law firm would have to survive on handouts from foreign donor organizations. Second, Pakistans male-dominated society seems to have brain washed women into believing that they can`t litigate in court. This is, of course, untrue (my wife is a practicing litigator), but the ``I-can`t-do-it`` thinking amongst the already few many women lawyers persists. Thirdly, even if you had a female law firm with female litigators, they would still be arguing cases before a male judiciary. Which brings you back to square one.

Still, the suggestion is good. But better one would be to have more women in the judiciary (especially the subordinate judiciary - the civil, sessions, district courts etc). It would also be an idea to train male judges in gender sensitivity (this exercise was carried out, I am told with some success, in Nepal).

Rafay Alam

Beena: This is an important issue. My late father had written an article on the subject where he demonstrated how the hadood ordinance is a violation of the Quranic injunctions themselves. While I am not sure of this particular article, i know that some other articles my father wrote that were used in the Lahore High Court to challenge things like the constitutional amendment that Nawaz Sharif was trying to pass to become virtual dictator by having himself declaring to be a mard-e-momin and thus implicitly answerable not to the electorate but to God (in other words, to no one but himself). I have the article available in hard-copy for only, and so can fax it (or will even transcribe it to email-able form if someone really intends to use it). Just let me know at tauheedahmed@hotmail.com. Regards.

Rafay: Thanks for the comments..most of the female lawyers I know in Peshawar have gone into the judicial system..because there is almost no decent place for a female lawyer. Also I can understand why female clients would have problems approaching male lawyers having seen some of the problems they face first hand (not knowing who to trust or even the difference between a civil and criminal lawyers)

As far as the client problem you mentioned, the solution could be the same as First Womens Bank. While women should be preferred at all times the firm need not be restricted to them. In the end it`s function would be to make a profit but it`s charter would have to include free legal aid.

I am not against the HAGS (love that line lol) providing their input either , but the perception of being non political should be the priority in building the credibility of the kind of organisation I am talking about.

I personally think there should be complete amnesty announced for all women in Pakistani prisons. And it should be carried out through a dictatorial order. This is one of the reasons I supported the LFO, despite all the complains against it. It authorized 1/3rd seats for women in elected houses.

Pakistanis need to figure out what they want. On the one hand, they cry for constitutions and democracy. On the other hand, they want Musharraf to undo Hadood ordinances and what not, through dictator-like commands. On the one hand they oppose the LFO for overstepping democracy, on the other hand, they support it for the rights it gives to women.

Technially speaking, all the rights recently given to women (and minorities) are illegal, if one looks at it from a Constitutional point of view. The women`s seats in the National Assembly are as, ``illegal``as the National Security Council. And as illegal as the coup, itself. One cannot pick and chose.

People need to get over Zia. He died sixteen-seventeen years ago. One cannot keep bringing him up for all the problems in the Pakistani society. Why didn`t anyone solve these problems in these years after his death? We did have, ``democracy`` in the 90s. Zia is now, no more than a convenient excuse.

The reason womens` condition in Pakistan, is amongst the worst in the world, is simple. One word. F-e-u-d-a-l-i-s-m. Not Islam, not MMA, but feudals. Armywallahs treat the women in their cantonments quite well. Just go and see. I have never heard of a honor-killing in the military. Maulvis force their women to wear niqabs and hijabs and what not. But they educate them and marry them off, and they even let them become MNAs (like Qazi Hussain`s daughter).

How are the women in feudal lands living?

Barring the daughters of the feudals themselves, who are supermodels and Harvard grads, and Prime Ministers, the rest are in bad shape. Much worse shape than the women living in Jamaat-i-Islami`s Mansoora.

The worst crimes against women are committed in the constituencies, with the approval, of the top-most political leaders of PPP and PML. Honor killings take place in the Sindhi stronghold of PPP and the southern Punjab stronghold of PML. Interestingly, these are considered the, ``liberal and secular`` parties of Pakistan.

A country: whose elected Prime Minister (Jamali) in unwilling to step out in public with his wife. And whose main opposition leader (Amin Fahim) is unwilling to do the same, alongwith having four sister married to the Quran. And whose most famous governor (Khar) has a son, who allegedly threw acid on a girl: is not going to treat its women too well. Why in the world will these powerful gentlemen improve the condition of women in Pakistan, when they go out of their way to keep them suppressed in their own constituencies?

There is an easy solution to solving all these problems. Stop voting for PPP and PML, and stop trying to portray them as a group of women-friendly liberals. If people cannot do that, then they need to stop complaining about the condition of women in Pakistan. They, themselves, are a cause of it.