Murder on Helm Street

HP:

`` When you accuse Pakistanis for ethnic cleansing after the partition you are perpetuating myths and lies. ``

ONLY COZ YOU FINISHED THE JOB IN WEST PAKISTAN BACK IN 1947. POST 1947, HINDUS WERE LEFT AS AN INSIGNIFICANT MINORITY WITH NO VOICE., KINDA LIKE THE PARSIS IN iNDIA. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A POGROM AGAINST PARSIS EITHER.

And yeah, we all know what a good job you did of perpetuating ethnic cleansing and genocide against Hindus in East Pakistan. So quit giving us that holier then thou crap. The only reason I am against violence against Indian Muslims is the fact that they are Indians, fellow citizens with a shared stake. And the buck stops there. No discussion required.

Jinnah talked about 2 distinct nations however, and it is by following Pakistani logic rather then Indian logic that Indian Muslims are considered foreigners with lives and rights forfeit. Remember the ``hostage theory`` propagated by him ??

As your fellow Pakistani Ali said, Indian Muslims deserve it for not moving to Pakistan when they could. So please, quit crying your crocodile tears over Hindu hatred for Muslims. Nobody has screwed Indian Muslims more then the Pakistan movement. It is not Indian Hindus who feel bad about Partition but Indian Muslims.

#547 satyavadi

Do you live in the US?

How would you feel if a landlord kicked you out because of all the curry and incense smells? There are laws in the US that prevent discrimination on cultural grounds. Discriminating against non-vegetarians is one such dicrimination.

Illogical obsession of some Indian communities (gujju-jains in particular) with ritual purity is socially regressive, recognize that fact. My parents had some jain friends who`s wife insisted on bringing her own food/crockery each time she would eat at our house. Of course we are sensistive to her religion and would have been careful with her food, but her insistence on bringing her own plate shows an illogical behaviour no different than the ``hindu-pani`` ``muslim-pani`` of previous generations. My parents took it in good humor, I would have kicked her ass out.

What the heck happens if a non-vegetarian lives in your flat? Ask him/her to clean the kitchen thorougly before he/she vacates, anything beyond that is illogical.

``If there is one minority that is going to be subtly oppressed soon in India, its` going to be the vegetarians.``

Yeah right!

Are you one of those who went around Mumbai buses pasting stickers that said ``eating eggs causes cancer``?

#546 by mohar11

Mohar, All I can say is that you are confronted to show some numbers and you runaway hiding under the holier than thou façade.

“Just as sample of measure of your success - Lahore had a big hindu/sikh population, almost 30% or more. Now - there are a few dozen alive there. “

All I have to do is replace the name of the city from Lahore to Amritser or Jallander and your statement would still be the same. Jallander and Amritser both had substantial Muslim populations and now how many Muslims live there?

What happened in 1947 was madness on the both sides. When you accuse Pakistanis for ethnic cleansing after the partition you are perpetuating myths and lies.

If a person of your education believes in the urban myths, rumors and lies than what would you say about the people with less education and limited access to information?

Instead of getting mad all you needed to do was to show me the numbers from any source that showed that the ethnic cleansing of Hindus took place in Pakistan after the partition riots.

There have never been even small-scale religious riot in Pakistan since 1949. And I am talking areas of Pakistan after 1971.

Just to put some sense into your polluted mind: Hindus in Gujarat killed 4 to 5 thousand Muslims and the whole world was outraged against that massacre. It was on TV and in newspapers all over the world for days.

Could you in your right mind think that an ethnic cleansing would take place in Pakistan and nobody in the whole world would know any thing about that? There are about 2.5 to 3 percent Hindus in Pakistan and that number has not significantly changed since 1951.

Do you even know what ethnic cleansing is?

#547

On the ``jain restaurant`` issue I am reminded of a hilarious incident. I had some students from IIT Kahragpur work at my lab in Mumbai one summer. Their first weekend in Mumbai they were enjoying the sights when the walked into a restaurant. Wanting to sample some of Mamai`s famous ``pav-bhaji`` they ordered the ``special jain pav-bhaji`` thinking that was the someting special they needed to try! needless to say they were sorely dissapointed!

(vegetarian restaurants in Mumbai usually offer a ``jain menu`` with dishes which dont have garlic, onion etc)

#544 by HP on April 14,

``You realize he was talking about cleansing and I am just trying to find out if ethnic cleasning of Hindus had taken place in Pakistan then may be I should know a little about that. ``

BD was east-pakistan.
Do you know the reasons behind the huge sindhi (hindu) diaspora all over the world? A large number lived in massive dirt-poor camps far outside bombay (ulhasnagar). I dont know if they left due to fear or life-property or conversion or to seek better economic future. Considering the quality of camps, and the amount of effort it requires to uproot your family, my guess is better economic future is an unlikely choice. What is your opinion sain?

One thing for sure..these sindhis just refuse to whine..never heard once. Not only that they have contributed hugely to educational and other institutions in india.

HP #544,

Check the population trends for Pakistan starting from the year 1947 to the year 1971. I believe the CIA website has a record of that.

A 15% minority in 1947 end up being only 6% in 1971. Currently, it stands at a pathetic 3%.

I will try to find the link for you.

Satyavad #547,

I agree with your post.

satyavadi says: `` If there is one minority that is going to be subtly oppressed soon in India, its` going to be the vegetarians``

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/495878.cms

``sanyasin Uma Bharti`s government is working on a plan to declare Maheshwar and Amarkantak as ``holy sites``. It is also likely to ban the public sale and consumption of meat, eggs, fish and liquor within urban limits.

Of the total population of 15,000 in this town in Khandwa district, 4,500 are Muslims and 5,000 are fisherfolk largely dependent on the meat and fish trade.

The decision was announced on January 28, after the new government`s first outstation cabinet meeting here. ``

Cabinet minister, Kailash Vijayavargiya, said, ``Residents may eat non-vegetarian food within their homes but all buying and selling of the products will be done outside the city`s limits.``

#544 by HP

//...I know we did not kill that many-:) ...//

Actually, you did. You just don`t realize how successful you have been. Major part of the cleansing was completed right after partition under the watchful eyes of Jinnah. After that - the cleansing was long drawn out and hence not noticeable. Lot of hindus also just converted to stay alive.

Just as sample of measure of your success - Lahore had a big hindu/sikh population, almost 30% or more. Now - there are a few dozen alive there.
++++

//...I don`t have access to the net. How do I google w/o the net.-:) ...//
If you don`t have access to internet - then how are you posting in chowk?

Look - you don`t have to lie to me. I like you man. As I said - you are a real paki (unlike that mor0n tahmed who is a closet-paki). I appreciate your honesty about your feelings and philosophy - you love ummah and you just hate hindus (and probably jews, ... and americans ). And you wear this on your sleeve and are proud of it.

Anyway - there is a lot of stuff in the net on cleansing of hindus from muslims lands or even hindu lands. Have fun!!

Regarding vegetarian landlords and their prospective tenants:

If a landlord is a vegeterian and/or prefers that meat not be cooked in his/her flat, it is his right to not rent his flat out to non-vegetarians. I don`t see how, his children hypothetically eating meat outside the house, is even a factor.

On a side-note, I have seen this tendency on Chowk for non-veg folks to mock veg folks for whatever choices they make. Even Stuka, had once said he ``hated`` the Jains for troubling the chefs of Five Star hotels (like he was at one time) by asking that their food be cooked away from meat etc. He surely doesn`t have that problem, I assume with Westerners asking that the restaurant not contaminate their food with dogmeat or catmeat. So why begrudge the Jains for their choice of food (for such basic principle of their religion)?

So what if we veggies are in a minority, doesn`t mean all you meat loving Indian majority can mock us and deny us our culture? If there is one minority that is going to be subtly oppressed soon in India, its` going to be the vegetarians.

Apropos of nothing, the Aussie dollar has been around 75 US cents, even reaching 80 at times, for the last 6 months...and locals save heaps because they have a public health system that usually works. Sorry, gujjubania- I have to defend my adopted land!

#543 by mohar11
#542 by HP

``Don`t be lazy - search in google. ``

I don`t have access to the net. How do I google w/o the net.-:)

mohar, I was trying to figure about something else. Okay let me make it easy.

Mahesh wrote in his post ``Whenever Muslims are in the majority they have basically cleansed their society of the minorities.`` You agreed with him.
You realize he was talking about cleansing and I am just trying to find out if ethnic cleasning of Hindus had taken place in Pakistan then may be I should know a little about that.

I know we did not kill that many-:)

There is no info on ethnic cleansing in Pakistan on the Net so if you have some other facts let us share them and may be I will agree with you for a change.

Thanks for all the links. will go over them. Seems like good info.

#542 by HP

Don`t be lazy - search in google.

Also read my post: `` a steady stream of hindus moving from Bdesh and settling in my state``. This is a first-hand account of the situation. In my hometown (which is a small town where everyone knows everyone) - every year more and more hindus from Bdesh are coming in and settling down. They don`t see any future in Bdesh which is getting increasingly islamised. There have been reports about significant decrease in hindu population in Bdesh.

Similarly - every year many hindus who travel to India from pakistan - refuse to go back. Recently - the Indian gov`t gave authority to district magistrates of border districts to issue passports and citizenship to all such persons in their jurisdictions. There was a TIME report about how hindus are oppressed in Pakistan. Some even don`t dare have hindu names. Poor hindu villagers and their women are treated as slaves in interior Sindh.

There hase been a bunch of reports on this issue - should be easy to find in a search.

Here are some samples:

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=4350
The true picture is not known to the outside world. It is a free for all so far it goes to torturing minority Hindus.
++++

http://www.hrcbm.org/
‘It is a war against the Hindus in Bangladesh’
+++

http://www.asianweek.com/2001_11_23/opinion_bangladesh.html
Attacks on Hindus in Bangladesh Raise Fears of Talibanization
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http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/10/22/stories/0322000d.htm
Thousands of minority Hindus have fled their homes to escape attacks allegedly by supporters of the new Bangladesh Government, rights groups and reports said today.

++++
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030702/main8.htm
The government of Pakistan is not allowing even local Hindus to look after their desolate temples on
++++

http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/journey2002/southasia2.html
Muslims are always favored when it comes to job offers or college places, they say. ``We are poor—much poorer than the Muslims,`` says Parwan Lal, a 20-year-old arts student...Was this simply the necessary patriotism of a minority, part of an embattled community`s highly-evolved instinct for survival? ..

#541 by mohar11
//...What is the guarantee that Indian Muslims are not of the same mindset?...//

“This has already happened in Pakistan.”

mohar11-
Do you have some numbers or any ref to that in any website? I have heard this before from some other Indians but was never able to find any thing that can accurately attest to the ethnic cleansing that you are referring concerning Pakistan. Or may be Bangladesh too, if it is not too much of bother for you.

#540 by MaheshG2
//...What is the guarantee that Indian Muslims are not of the same mindset?...//

NONE whatsoever. If tomorrow, hypothetically speaking, the composition reverses i.e. India becomes 80% muslim and 15% hindu - you can bet your a## within a decade, hindus would be reduced to 2% by conversion, coercion, rape etc.

This has already happened in Pakistan. This is exactly what is happening in Bangladesh as we speak. I know because - I see a steady stream of hindus moving from Bdesh and settling in my state. Their stories are the same. And these are the ones with resources who could afford to flee. For each of these guys who could flee - there are a hundred who are enduring the systematic repression.

That doesn`t mean India has to do the same its muslim minorities. Not at all. But this fact must be kept in mind.

``Unlike India’s only Muslim majority state of Kashmir that is boiling with insurgency one doesn’t expect similar level Muslim insurgencies elsewhere in India as Muslims are well distributed among the majority Hindu community. The question arises as to what indicators can be used to qualify and quantify the extent of jihadisation of Indian Muslims and more importantly what are the trends.

Over the years some Hindus have been leaving Muslim enclaves in the rest of India owing to feelings of insecurity. This perception is built up by their portrayals in local mosques that view Hindus as infidels. This slow ethnic cleansing too must be regarded as a low-intensity jihad.

The above observation must be kept in mind in relation to the massive ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims in every Muslim majority area of South Asia (including Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh) and the constitution-based mistreatment of non-Muslims in such regions. ``


This is from Gujjubania`s post.

My main contention is the point highlighted above. Are any Indian Muslims going to address this FACT? Whenever Muslims are in the majority they have basically cleansed their society of the minorities. What is the guarantee that Indian Muslims are not of the same mindset?