Jehad and The Curriculum

technology and shehdad,

There are several areas pakistan as a so called technologically advanced country according to tahmed can contribute to the ummah.
A jihadi seeks martyrdom, he wants to be killed in the process of killing others. Pakistanis with their computer prowess can develop a locator for the call of ``jihad``. When ever that word is uttered, the program should be able to identify the number of people shouting that from the voice pattern, assign an approp[riate weapon. It could be a daisy cutter for large crowds dropped from a UAV, or a precisely targetted gun mounted in the street corners.

This automated system can deliver shehdad to the millions of pakistanisscattered in the far corners of teh country.

Shehdad at the door step, nothing could be more appealing to the jihadis. Pakistan has to develop products to meet its own needs.

Ferzok, 171

It It is unhelpful, detrimental and for people like me utterly sickening to see the educated like you to talk about how poor pakistan was at the time of creation. Well the police service did not have a table to work on, so what did they do, they became corrupt, incompetant and became accomplices is crime. Is that what you are telling, is that the moral of the story.

This reminds me of my own child hood, at least the pak police had a wooden crate, we sat on the floor, walked for an hour to go to primary school,did not encounter electricity till I went to engineering college hostel, saved monety from the scholarship to help out my parents,....no the poverty and depravation did not create a pakistani being of today, 50 yeras later went on to become the head of propulsion system of the regulator of the third largest aviation country in the world.

Or you can take the case of my childhood friend and fellow sufferer who is one of the senior vicepresidents of the largest refinery in the world, Reliance.

Ferzok, it is people like you that extinguish the spark of hope in the poor and under previlaged of pakistan. It is people like you who look for excuses to pass on the buck and strifle self improvement. It is people like you who support the jihadis of pakistan by blaming it on poverty and the US actions in afghanistan. It is peole like you who prescribe what aothers shopuld do to improve pakistan rather making a small step in that direction.

Ferzok, be defiant, take a risk, make a small step, start a campaingn to rename the ``university avenuse`` on chowk as Salam avenue. No Ferzok no pakistani will ever dare to do that, that would be taking a smal action to state your beliefs in public, taht is exposing and affirming your true values, well your true values are no different from taht of Bhutto who introduced discrimination against the ahmadias, and hence you will not do that.

americans have well rounded educational curriculum.. as a result even the stripper at the health club can apreciated and use yoga to her advancement

re: rsridhar # 164

You are entirely welcome! :)

As your question, I cannot give you an answer simply, because I think that the real reasons are now buried with Jinnah and we can only speculate on his motives.

My own understanding is that Jinnah had a very low opinion of the capabilities of his fellow politicans and leaders of Pakistan and thought of them as mired in provincialism and not capable of rising out of their petty interest based politics. After partition, Jinnah lived for an additional eleven months and that is simply not enough time in politics to create a new political infrastructure for a new nation out of nothing. Pakistan of 1947 was a Pakistan, which most Pakistanis cannot even imagine.

Let me, as a way of illustrating my point, share what my late father used to tell me. My father joined the Police Service of Pakistan in 1949; two years after independence. He used to say that his office had no tables or chairs and for tables, he would use a wooden crate of mangoes and for chair, another crate. There was no paper to write reports or send instructions on, so he would use any scrap of paper he could find and there were no paper clips to use, so to bind papers and files he would use thorns.

The moral of the story is that Pakistan as an independent state existed only on paper. I think, and I fully realize that most people scoff at this suggestion, but Jinnah was too pre-occupied to ensure that Pakistan was able to survive the partition than worry about constitutionalism. In many ways, Pakistan was able to truly ``stand on its feet`` after it benefitted financially from the Korean War in the early 1950s by supplying jute (from East Pakistan) to the United Nations` forces in Korea. It is for this reason that the majority of the Pakistanis may detest the rule of Ayub Khan, but they always look back on the 1960s with nostalgia, because Ayub really provided them with the wherewithal of a national infrastructure.

I hope, this answer helps.

Ciao

re:#168 by jay
I agree with your view that criticism in the American press sometimes has a salutary effect on Indians. I had posted the case of an Indian who, stung by the criticism about Indian toilets by Jay Leno in his show, has helped build public toilets with modern facilities and has ushered in a kind of mini-revolution. I only wish that India`s image were not kilpinsque but that the American media showed some good aspects of India too. For eg: America borrows liberally from Indian spiritualism: its yoga, meditation etc and there are umpteen number of spiritual teachers coming here and teaching the ``spiritual wisdom of the East`` but few in the media acknowledge this aspect of India. There is a kind of arrogance here that comes out of being a rich and prosperous country. Perhaps thing will change as India grows in economic and political stature.
Sridhar

sridhar 165,

I am not worried about the so called negative images of india, they are truthful and publicuty in the west has a sobering effect on the indian elite. Many of the social changes in india have been hastned by the publicity in the west, and the Opra show on dowry is the best that has happened in recent years for the women to shun the dowry.

I have lived through the colonial mindset years in india where it was necessary to get the accolades abroad before any recognition is conferred in india. I have seen that a lot have changed in India in recent years. There was a time when any degree from any US university was considereed superior to anything indian, now it has to be ivy league, otherwise indian ones are considered better and suited to the local conditions.

All of the above is in stark contrast to what one sees in pakistan. A simple lass who refused marriage because of dowry, the indian elites made her into a heroine and was on Opers show. We value the principle of reinforcing the positive, while the ilks of tahmed and YLHs are bent on white washing of pakistan. For years the above two have maintained that honourkilling is not legal in pakistan, it is all due to corruption. When an article was on chowk regarding the legal sancity of honour killing, the two were notable absent as interacors.

I rather find it amazing that a few indians find some commonality with the pakistanis, as far I can see the educayed of pakistan are very very different from the indians in their values and approaches to social issues.

Sridhar,

As far as I know most of the indians are aware of the social situation in the US. If I remeber correctly, 1.5 percent of the population is in prisons. A total of 5 percent of the population is in the effective control of the criminal justice system, that is on parole, on good behaviour bonds, on the way to prison etc.

I remeber a few years ago listening to an economist from the US, citing the low un-employment rate in the US, may be it was 6 percent, I asked him about the 1 percent in prison, who are mostly of employabvle age. If you take this into account, the real unemployment in the US is more likely to be above 8 percent, assuming 40 percent of the population are potentially active job seekers..

re:#166 by Mantolives
Thanks for your post. I will surely try and get hold of the book you have suggested.
Sridhar

Rsidhar,

The Jinnah Papers show that Jinnah was very closely involved in the constitution-making and took part in the deliberations that took place early on. After December when Jinnah had resigned as the President of AIML, most of his time was spent away from Karachi in Lahore, Ziyarat etc.

I do hope you will read a book on the man ... I suggest Secular and Nationalist Jinnah by Dr. Ajeet Javed of Jawaharlal Nehru University, though like with most books I don`t agree with all that she says.

-YLH

re:#161 by jay
India`s image in USA is still very bad. There is a lot of ignorance about India and media distorts the image all the time. Why, i sometimes wonder?
The ignorance is so stark that one of my American colleagues at work wanted to know if as a Hindu, i went to a mosque!
I was about to return home from work when i just switched on the TV and was shocked to see the news of stampede and deaths in Lucknow. People apparently had gathered for gifts (sarees etc) promised on an election eve and some confusion led to the stampede. What was the necessity of projecting this news on CNN i thought.
India never learns about the uglier part of USA, which is its social structure. I see teenage pregnancies, broken homes, drugs very prevalent whereever i had worked, especially in big cities but India never gets to hear these things. It is as if the US news channels have an unwritten agenda to malign India. Even this latest BPO controversy is giving India a bad name.
Sridhar

re:#156 by ferozk
Thanks for an insightful post.
One is however intrigued by the turn of events in 1947. Jinnah knew he was dying (so much i gather from reading ``Freedom at midnight`` though i must confess i have not read a book on Jinnah) and that he had very little time. Why did he not go about the task of delegating power, framing constitution etc?
Sridhar

Hindoo-Fundoo Conspiracy (With apologies to my nicer Indian Hindu friends...)

Echoboom... #160

Adversity makes strange bedfellows...

The collaboration of the Islamist Mullah with the Indian Jingoistic fanatic is nothing new... we witnessed a fair share of it during the Independence Movement and the Pakistan Movement where bigots like you stood hand in glove with anti-Pakistan elements... calling Pakistan kafiristan and Jinnah, Kafiriazam...

If you have the gutts fight on facts... Answer my posts instead of hiding behind your long lost finally reunited ally and blood brother.



Jay,

I see you hiding behind more lies instead of answering with proper arguments. Like I pointed out... I didn`t write the book `Secular and Nationalist Jinnah` an Indian did... Perhaps for you history of 55 years is be all end all, but in the life of nations it is nothing. Jinnah`s vision has been communicated by those like KK Aziz, Cowasjee and Ayesha Jalal who have stood up against all the lies.

As for you... You have serious misgivings about Pakistan.... I suggest you ask those who have just come back... Pakistan is far from the Jehadic country of your wet dreams... and your own countrymen are castigating liars like you for lying about Pakistan. Still there are many faults in Pakistan and we will correct them. You really should be more concerned about your own country... unlike you I don`t have the time to start obsessing about your country and whats happening there.


Dr Abdus Salam is an honored Pakistani scientist... the Physics department of the Government College holds an annuall seminar and function on his achievements . He was a legend even in his own life time. A number of halls and buildings are named after him... and if you come to Pakistan I promise you I will show you the road named after him. Ofcourse I don`t want to meet a sicko like you is another issue... but I will even bear you or anyone else who wants to see the monuments and roads named after Abdus Salam.


Dr. Salam was a patriot of Pakistan .... who must be spinning in his grave to be used in such a cynical fashion by a bigoted enemy of Pakistan.


-YLH

YLH,

You keep quoting all and sundry and keep asserting that jinnah had a great vision, but how come he failed so misserabley in communicating it, in fact if you go by the path taken by pakistan in the last 50 years, he communicated the exact opposite.
Research in history is merely a reinterpretation of the past events, through selective emphasis one can create any portrait of jinnah. The proof is in the pudding, the reality of pakistan.

How come there are no freedom fighters in pakistan, who shared the vision of jinnah. Howcome none of the so called jinnah deciples are honoured, like the vinoba and JP of india.

YLH, there are times one has to look at the reality of today, go back and reread what jinnaha said. Pakistan has progressively, through military and democratic rulers have become a jihadic country, and major reason of which is the likes of you, who talk of a mirage, a non-existant pak ideology.

Take it from me, jinnah is dead and the pakistan of today represent the will of the pak people. There is no room for the dreams of a dead man. Accepot the reality and try to change it in a direction you want it.

Why cant you make a beginning by telling that there are no roads in pakistan named after abdus salam and you posted lies.

India visits now part of B-school curriculum
N VIDYASAGAR

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ MONDAY, APRIL 12, 2004 01:53:00 AM ]

NEW DELHI : The old, exotic image of India continues to flood their minds. For a majority of 55 MIT Sloan MBA students who had a brief India sojourn recently — Infosys campus to Bollywood studios and R&D centres to people on the move — India has been a

pleasant shock.



Visiting India is common not only for CEOs but for B-school students from the US . It doesn`t matter that India still carries an image of being a land of snakecharmers, or, for that matter, of cows squatting on roads.



Even India-bashing by US politicians over outsourcing notwithstanding, passage to India seems to be the buzz in the world`s most developed economy. For instance, over 24 US professors were here recently, trying to study and understand India . Another 80 Harvard Business School students had come on a two-week Bharat yatra.

YLH, this is what I am talking about. You keep posting that jinnah views were no different from that of indian leaders, and how come this large gulf has developed in 50 years. Jihadis from all over the world are visiting pakistan, even the second generation ones in the UK are on the jihadic path.

Essential values of a society die hard, the only way you can explain the jihadic mind set of pakistan is through the darwenian selection, the ilk of mushy who masterminded the kargill invasion is the typical pakistani. For kargill invasion he had the support of the military and the jihadists, all united by the same pak ideology of TNT, kill the kafirs.

Assuming that the following is addressed to me. Reproduced for everyones convenience in its entirety:
#155 by Mantolives on April 11, 2004 6:12am PT

So you are saying that `secular` countries have shariat courts... but that doesn`t affect their secularism ... again you`ve lost me here... are you saying an Islamic state is a theocracy or is an Islamic state secular?

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My Reply:
Jay has already said it impeccably, yet not so pedantically, thus:

#154 by jay on April 11, 2004 6:12am PT
What YLH is trying to do is simply to push $hit uphill and the outcome is there for all to see.

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Jay,


My dear dear friend.... I didn`t write the book Secular and Nationalist Jinnah ... an Indian did... she is a PhD... and her book was published by Jawaharlal Nehru University Press


There is no end to your ignorance. Thank God I sleep at night knowing that I am not a liar like you. That dream was communicated repeatedly throughout Jinnah`s career and especially after the creation of Pakistan... The Two Nation Theory predated Jinnah... and Jinnah is the Only politician to be called the best Ambassador of Hindu muslim unity in the entire subcontinent... only in the minds of people like you does Jinnah become the sole embodiment of the two nation theory.



Warning the Mullahs (who had been allied with the Congress previously.. irony) he thundered:

`Make No Mistake about it. Pakistan shall not be a theocracy to be run by priests with a divine mission.`

He repeated this statement on a number of occasions.


The new state would be a modern democratic state with sovereignty resting in the people and the members of the new nation having equal rights of citizenship regardless of their religion, caste or creed. --Jinnah to Doon Campbell 21st May 1947


Again he said:

Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent Assembley, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan `if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?` (Quaid e Azam`s interview 25th October 1947: with Reuters` Duncan Hooper note)


On 11th August he said:

If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be on end to the progress you will make. I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shias, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State. Well, gentlemen, I do not wish to take up any more of your time and thank you again for the honour you have done to me. I shall always be guided by the principles of justice and fairplay without any, as is put in the political language, prejudice or ill-will, in other words, partiality or favouritism. My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality

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The question that why a country for muslims is a stupid one... and is asked by either people like you or the Islamists like echoboom... the issue of the creation of a state for a minority, whether buddhist, muslim, christian or hindu has nothing to do with the issue of the secularism. Secularism : Separation of Church and State ... is a totally different concept.

That question has been answered by many scholars on the issue, including a number of Indian authors ...
-YLH