Jehad and The Curriculum

Mohammad 47:20 And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!

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waiting for gabriel,

.......our resident jihadi, urstruly, has spoken .......... now you see why it is so difficult to change the text books in pakistan without changing the source book?............ the koran has to be rewritten before we can get rid of this nonsense ............. unfortunately, this task is beyond mortal me - it can only be done by a winged creature who hasn`t been seen in fourteen hundred years

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Another excellent and timely article, Bina.

Does this urstruly work for chowk????

Bina,

Good points. Valid arguments. And, well put together feature!

The other major issue is how people at a high visibility role do not realize how the rest of the world will interpret their views. There is definitely lack of pragmatism and prudence.

That`s where Maliha Lodhi should be asked to coach some of the upcoming elected or nominated women.

Ironically, Pakistani Society does not value people of caliber by their brain, knowledge, and exposure. They mostly go by the age factor. To them, the older you are the more experience you have.

just for a moment..........

............ are we willing to consider the notion that we might be confronting an ideology that is beyond reform, beyond redemption, beyond any possibility of reform ?.......... think about it ........ do we have to thoroughly discredit, defeat, and vanquish this insidious philospophy before the text books can be changed ?................think about it ..............was it possile to ``reform`` communism?......... was it possible to ``reform`` nazism? .......... can we reform islam ?................ are these valid questions?

I think curriculum has failed. But it does not matter. Rich people like my Abbaji sent all their children to convent English school and we end up in usa. Medium send to patriotic english school and children end up in usa. Only poor go to urdu medium school(end up in usa) and only no nothing marginal economic people send children send to Religious school. These poor people have less have than most dogs in rich house hold and their children live and work in Pakistan and it does not matter. Its preprogramed.
Religious schools and army has failed. Indian schools cram computers and get jobs so they achieve limited success.
This religious school product is supposed to be fighting man for Jehad incorporated and that is ok. But still they have not been successful in Liberation of Kashmir. Even army has infinite supply of religiously charged young man but proper training is not given so his sacrifice is wasted. But that does not matter as who dies he does not care for his life neither the senders them as cannon fodder to eastern front. I think Its best way to keep frustrated jehadis in control by destroying as once jehadi is always jehadi. An ideal jehadi when cools can find thug generals plan and will take care of fake muslim leaders who encourage jehadi for fight and army sends them to certain death. And army does not move for kashmiris and never moves when needed to help kashmiris. It just like Indian movie hero complains to heroine abou his ``Mjaburi, mai kya kar sakata hay?``.Its like chicken meat factory for male chickens, feeded , antibioticxed, fatttened and put on assembly belt and slaughtered and processed and marketed.

And I thought `Jehad` meant `Not cheating on your Girlfriend.`

;)

Beena

A good crusade.

But it is like cleaning a table when the house is full of muck.

The `Constitution` says no law shall be made repugnant to Quran & Sunnah.

TNT, its purpose long achieved, is now re-hashed and touted as `Pakistan was made in the name of Islam` - as if the 140 Muslims in India are unable to perform their rituals.

The Army`s motto is `Jihad fe Sabeel Illah` - fight for Allah.

There is no end to the distortions in our structure.

Hamidm2 has absolute clear thinking on the subject.

This article is timely & based on a good research. Now there are many people inside the country who are aware of the fact that history which is written in Pakistani curiculum is somewhat mis-represented. But this is the problem with many of the countries in the world. Most of the governments try to show history with color of their respective religion, culture or political ideology.

nazarhayatkhan # 11 - You wrote: ``A good crusade``.

Your ignorance of history, your parrotting of western mantra and even their vocabulary has rendered you nothing more than a monkey who mimicks his master.

Instead of using ``good crusade``, why didn`t you use the phrase ``good pogrom``? Because then your masters would have casterated you and sent in their crusaders into your house looking for you.

Let me pose this simple question: Is religious fundamentalism the ONLY problem emanating from Pakistani curriculum?

The obvious answer is NO. Our curriculum contains low grade subject matter; it LIES about history of Pakistan; it LIES about the history of the land on which Pakistan was created; it HIDES the dark truths about our post-independence years; it produces BRAIN DEAD products who lack the minimal cognitive abilities or critical thinking to do anything fruitful in their lives.

So why this emphasis on ONLY the religious element of text? ahhhh! its because the west asked us to. Its because we are a SLAVE people. This was the only `problem` area in our curriculum that West seemed to be interested in.

Our whorish elite in Pakistan never cared much about curriculum since their own children were studying in convents and abroad. Now suddenly this elite has awoken and is scrambling to meet the timeline imposed by West for `improving` our curriculum by only focusing on the verses. As if substituiting a few verses will usher in an era of elightenment and our own ``spanish inquisition``.

Here is another feather in the low hanging skirt of General Whore.

Malik99 # 14

I agree word `crusade` could have been avoided; especially when talking in this context.

However, I sandby with my views of ``Zero Tolerance`` for state telling its subjects what to believe in.

Pakistan also has Christians, Parsis, Hindus, Sikhs, non-believers - and they are equal citizens of the state.

Nazarhayatkhan # 15 - You wrote ``I sandby with my views of ``Zero Tolerance`` for state telling its subjects what to believe in``

Your ideas are not just slavish, they have an added element of hypocricy too. Why is your ``Zero Tolerance`` of state meddling in our beliefs limited to the religious part of the text? Why not to the history part? Why not the social studies part? or the even the science part? Does it have something to do with the fact that religious part is the only ``belief`` part that the West is interested in?

Yes, Pakistan has 1% minorities who do not share Islamic belief. They could be easily accomodated by customizing their texts with their own religious beliefs. Why you, the slave of west, are asking the 99% people of Pakistan to revamp the ``religious only`` portion of their texts to accomodate the 1%?

Listen man, I respect the atheists and secularists. But your secularism does not arise from a studied approach. It arises from ignorance and slave mentality.

malik #13 Perhaps it is time to sharpen that (intellectual, hopefully) sword you promised to cut me with next time you got your chance. So, en garde, my young friend, and read my response to your question:

``Is religious fundamentalism the ONLY problem emanating from Pakistani curriculum? ``

The answer is no. Fine.

But your question is stupid. It is stupid because in asking that question you imply that just because the rest of the curriculum could be strengthened we should do nothing to take such abominations as the insertion of half-baked mullah ideology (which incidentally violates not only common sense but the fundamental message of the Quran as well) into biology and physics textbooks?

You question is also immoral. How dare you, having benefitted from a proper education in the US, deny the same thing to those less fortunate than you in Pakistan?

I am now ready for your response. I would advise you to stay focussed on what I have written and not try to play games and parry around. Since if you do, I shall cut through your arguments like a knife goes through butter. intellectually speaking, as always.

kaurasach #2 you write ``This article reaffirms what sane people already know, and what most muslims either support or refuse to confront. ``

You are right for once, I will say. The only solution to the jehadis is to give them a taste of the jehad they seek - blasting them to hell with daisy cutters as the US military did in afghanistan, or flushing them out from the tribal areas as the Pakistan military is now (finally!) getting around to doing. Note that in Wana these scoundrels did not ``die fighting`` or anything glorious like their big talk - they quietly surrendered to save their skins.

As for urstruly quoting from the Quran, I think it is monstrous that he should drag the Quran into his own mischievous way of thinking. The Quranic message is one of peace - the jehadis message is that of the devil.

you cannot put lipstick on a pig and pass it off as a horse .............

............ people like malik99 and urstruly show why it wouldn`t make any difference if you edited the text books.......... the cancer has spread to every part of the body and radical surgery is required ...........there is no point in removing the word jihad from the text books if the children continue to be fed the nonsense about badr, khandaq and the conquest of mecca ...........as long as they continue to draw inspiraiton from the warrior prophet and continue to believe in the unedited version of the book, they will continue to grow up to be potential jihadis hell-bent on getting to heaven and their seventy virgins .............there is no hope ............. in every age there were barbarians that threatened civilization..........so be it - eventually they were defeated and mankind moved on ..............

Its Muslims who need to be reformed...not Islam.

And on the subject of distorted history lessons in our curriculum...yes there is an urgent need to get rid of narrow minded and shallow ideas that are being spoonfed to our school goers...
Although we cram up most of what is written in the books without giving a thought but these things stay stuck in our sub-conscious...and distort our ability to think clearly...and to accept mistakes that we have made...we only learn to glorify ourselves...or to belittle others...
thats what is being taught in our school books.

They shud also remove this from basic text books of religious school in Pakistan

ali say allah
bay say bandook (gun)
tai say tank
jeem say jehad
kaaf say kalishankov

etc etc

I have seen it with my own eyes

Plus there were stories of valour of people fighting in Afganistan ........ there was a picture of small guy (pashtoon) standing on destroyed tank with USSR sign and yelling allah o akabar ........... come on ......... these things are way more visible ........... stop them first

Yoda, Star Wars Trilogy

``You must unlearn what you have learned.`` ``Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...``

``Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight.``

Yoda, Star Wars Trilogy

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try....

``Ohhh! Great warrior! [laughs and shakes his head]
Wars not make one great!``

``Always in motion is the future.``

Yoda, Star Wars Trilogy

``Size matters not! Judge me by my size, do you?``

And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It`s energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...( pinches Luke`s shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

Concentrate...feel the Force flow. Yes. Good. Calm, yes. Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone.

Yoda, Star Wars Trilogy

``You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive.`` A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

``A Jedi`s strength flows from the Force.``

``Beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight.``

tahmed 32 # 16 - I am all for improving our curriculum. ALL of it. On terms and conditions which suit OUR culture, OUR beliefs, and OUR heritage. NOT on west`s pleasure.

Why has removing certain verses from text become the biggest priority in a country where 75% of the population NEVER goes to school? Why is the West (and its slaves) not asking us to address THAT problem and set up more schools on the HIGHEST priority bases? Why isn`t this dangerously low literacy rate in 21st centrury a FAR bigger problem than a few verses? Why is the West (and its slaves) not asking us to revamp the aparthied divide of Urdu/English medium schools which produces generations void of purpose and goals? Why is the west not asking us to set up more research labs so that our children not only learn by rote but also see the practical implication of knwoledge?

Admit the fact that in 2004 your sudden awakening to the need to revamp religious part of texts stinks of slavery. You have woken up to fulfill west`s timeline.

As always, your second question arises out of ignorance. I DID study in Pakistan until 12th grade.

Malik99 #26,

Obviously, the west has no interest except its own.

It is upto Pakistanis to revamp their curriculum. It shouldn`t be at the behest of the west that Jihad should be removed the biology texts (biology and Jihad, oh my God!!!).

It was Pakistan`s mistake that it allowed itself to be manipulated so by the US. There is no point in blaming the west when one doesn`t recognize his own good.

#23 by hamidm2 on April 3, 2004 7:05am PT
you cannot put lipstick on a pig and pass it off as a horse .............

---

Hah haa haa:
That is exactly what muslims are trying to drill into your pig-head. You ignorant pimp. You are that pig who is trying desperately to look different with the goraa-hipstick.

Such is the existence of goraa-goo-chaaters. Now go and drink pissfroth, watch baseball in you trailer trash, and look evolved, lest they find out.

malik #26 You make a number of points, so let me tackle them one at at time.

1. I am glad that we both agree that removing mullah ideology from textbooks will improve their quality. That narrows down our difference to one of means, not one of goals. Your view (i.e. one of opposition to eliminating mullah ideology from our textbooks) is because this move is due to western pressure. My view (i.e. one of support) is based on the fact that these children will get a better education as a result, will be better able to get make a life for themselves in future. In other words, your view is based on a focus on appearances of Pakistan vis a vis the west, while my view is based on a focus on the realities that the next generation of Pakistanis will have to face. I hope you will agree, seen in light of the realities the next generation of pakistanis will face, we should all out oppose this messing with their education by mullahs.

2. You correctly note the vast illiteracy in Pakistan. The solution to that is to invest more in education. Not to mess up the education of those who DO go to school.

3. The primary responsibility for their education is with Pakistanis, not the west as you incorrectly imply. What does this looking towards the west for help say about your own attitude when it comes to the question of having a slavish rather than an independent mind?

4. You betray ignorance of what is being done by the `slaves` (as you incorrectly call those who agree with the west) in Pakistan. There are many Pakistani organizations as I have discussed before on chowk, that are engaged in providing proper education. These include organizations like DIL and SOS and Agha Khan foundation and MBTMT and others - I could give you their web links if you wish to put your money where your mouth is and contribute to this cause. You can also visit these NGO run schools and orphanages in Pakistan and satisfy yourself (as I did) that your money is being properly used. And indeed, there are westerners engaged in such education as well - one of them was even reported on in a cover story of the Parade magazine. He put his whole life into where your mouth is, left his wife and children in the US to start girls schools in the northern areas.

And there are other ways in which you can help. My nephew, who was born and raised in Germany, did that when he convinced the authorities that as an alternative to German military service he would work for ILO in Pakistan, and spent an entire hot summer going from one factory to another, from one town in rural panjab to another, convincing factory workers to participate in a program to pay for part-time education of their child workers. And rest assured that my nephew, who is a tall, strapping young chap with flair for basketball and other sports, and a great sense of humor, is a slave to no man. But neither does he allow his views to be shaped around this anti-west ideology that pervades too many muslim intellectuals.

5. Thanks for correcting my assumption that you were born and raised in the US. I may sometimes make the wrong assumption, but dont mind being corrected. My basic point remains unchanged - you chose to benefit from western college education, and you are now benefitting in the job market as a result. Our children in Pakistan will have to compete in a global labor market - and the only way they will get jobs is if the education system of Pakistan is known to be sound.

6. As for my awakening in 2004 to the west`s timeline on education as you say - you are wrong. I have been contributing to the SOS for example since before you were born (if you were born after 1980). There are many other Pakistanis, much more dedicated than I am, who have been doing this for years. You are merely being presumptuous here.

I saw the programme that the article refers to... it was a pathetic performance by the Minister, Qasmi and Dushka Syed... Zubaida Jalal`s comment `I am a fundamentalist` was just stupid.... as it was not relevant to the debate.Dushka Syed was playing to the gallery ... her profession of jehad, and her declaration `I am proud to be the descendant of Mohd. Ghori` really made her lose the arguments. A H Nayyer came out convincingly on top and he is a true patriot no doubt. Thank God for his report...


Najma Babar`s article, Khalil Jabran`s works, and Dina Wadia`s article about her father should be included in the textbooks... the message that they propound is much more important to Pakistan than the imagined ideology of the state that it guardians keep spouting.

#26 by malik99
//...Admit the fact that in 2004 your sudden awakening to the need to revamp religious part of texts stinks of slavery. You have woken up to fulfill west`s timeline...//

You are right. But why are you complaining now? This is how it has always been in pakistan. Paki Army and their progenies have been carrying out their master`s orders since the beginning. Master needed jihadis to fight communists .... Lo and Behold ... Pakis opened up a whole assembly line to churn out the Zombies....fitted with a whole range of software(islamic ideology) and hardware. Did you complain then ... of course not?

Then master changed his mind - called off the game.... jihad is out of fashion ....Jihadis would have to go. Pakis have jumped to the order ... trying hard to meet the master`s demand .... textbooks are dirty, must be washed clean ... madrassas are bad - must be reformed ... a whole range of ideologies developed for the earlier war are going to get a make over. Not because pakis themselves are convinced this is a good thing - but since the master says so.

If tomorrow - for some reason US comes around and wants jihadis once again - you bet your a## - the assembly line would be rebuilt immediately.

Whenever Master says Jump - Pakis say how high. That`s the way it has always been. Why complain now?

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malik99 #26
``You have woken up to fulfill west`s timeline.``

Only the brute force of the US can wake up people pretending to be asleep.

This is perhaps pertinent to the discussion:

The aga khan examination board (as alternative to the government backed `matric` system)


The first SSC examinations are scheduled in 2006 and HSC in 2008. Preparation of examination syllabuses will be a major activity in late Autumn, 2003, and any qualified educationalist who feels that they could contribute to our thinking in an SSC subject should get in touch with the Director AKU-EB, Prof. Thomas Christie.

Email: examination.board@aku.edu


more information: http://www.aku.edu/akueb/index.shtml

#33 by arjun_m,

``All organized religion should be banned...``


Good idea! But I think a better way would be to teach elementary psychology in schools from childhood...in a suitable way, off course.

For example homework could be to observe your thoughts when you get angry at home. Note them down and read them in class next day.

By and by, self awareness would increase to a point where the brain understands deeply its needs and responses...primarily the need for psychological security...and rejects organised religion NATURALLY.

- - - - -

Without laying this kind of foundation...that is, the foundation of self understanding, simply banning religion would not yeild anything IMHO.

mohar # 31 - Unfortunately you are 100% right. On August 14th 1947 we thought we were getting independence. We did not realize that in the process we were losing our freedom. There is NOT ONE mark in our 56 years of history, which we can look back and say with pride ``Yes, that is when we acted as a free people``.

tahmed 32 - Your intellectual arguments aside, a day will come when West will realize that our text books are intolerant and bigoted towards homosexuality. They will begin asking us to introduce homosexuality as a ``way of life`` in our children`s curriculum. That very moment, the whorish elite of Pakistan led by General Whore will begin parrotting that the lesbian book written for children, ``Heather Has Two Moms``, be included as a required text book for our 6th graders.

Various

The only book that should contain religious scriptures is ``Islamiyat`.

In Zia`s Islamization days, they even tried to Islamize Mathematic - like Islamizing the simple Area question to `` If a mosque had x length and x breadth, what would be the area of the mosque?``

Then you find fairly educated suited-booted Pakistanis trying to prove Scientific theories through Scripture. One favourite is that holy book says that man was created out of a honey-like liquid. (any teenager could make this observation)

A completely illetrate person comes out far more sensible and tolerant than the educated guys who propound insane Ummah theories & West against Islam theories.

And why shouldn`t the West be against you?

Some of you have openly declared a War against it. It is West`s tolerant & compassion that it still gives you jobs, home and complete personal freedoms. Compare it with Arab and Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia does not permit a non-Muslim to enter Mecca. And if during prayer time, your shutters are not down, some one could come and beat you with stick. In Pakistan, you could be killed for blasphemy.

So let us not put all the blame on the West or India, let us come out of the caves - and keep our God within ourselves.

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mali: you write ``Your intellectual arguments aside, a day will come when West will realize that our text books are intolerant and bigoted towards homosexuality. ``

Until that day comes then, I suggest you cool it.

You have failed to either counter OR acknowledge the plain and simple facts I presented to you in response to the concerns you had originally expressed.

I have been looking into the whole AKU for the last 2 months and I must say that it would also be a good alternative for not only the Matric system, but the O level and A level stream.


M B Z Isphahani...


According to various estimates, including those by the Pakistan Christian Congress, the number of Christians in Punjab alone is close to 5 million. According to the PCC ... there are 15 million christians in Pakistan. I think a reasonable estimate would be 8 to 9 million.
The number of Hindus in Rural Sindh is close 1.5 million atleast. Apparently more than 50% population of the Sukkur Area is Hindu. There are sporadic sikh, buddhist and bahai populations all over Pakistan ... If Ahmadis are considered non-muslims as they are as per the amendment to the constitution, then there are roughly 4 to 5 million of them. Hence the total number of non-muslims in Pakistan is close 15-20 million today depending on which NGO, political organization`s figures you accept.

15 to 20 million of 150 million is not 3% as the Government figures indicate... its close to 10 to 12%...

D for daisy cutters,

It is remarkable what a few daisy cutters in the waziristan can do to the tahmeds and ylhs of chowk. For a long time I had been posting on the k for kafir education in pakistan, how the combination of TNt and jihad has been interwoven in the pak society to create a climate of hatred for kafoirs. Jihadis from more than 20 countries have been killed in kashmir, the ones arrestde for planning attack in UK are of pak origin, pakistanis have gone all the way to the US to kill FBI agents. This type of pervasive hatred is not the work some isolated terrorist, it con flourish only when there is an atmosphere of haterd inculcated at the early childhood through the education system which I called the k for kafir education.

The tahmeds and ylhs have denied this all along, and now with a few daisy cutters in pakistan, the tahmed wats change in curriculum.
Pakistan is a case of the failure of the educated, a nation created by the collaborators have blossomed another set of collaborators, the collaborators of the jihadists, for tahmed jihad in pakistan is due to poverty, for romair it is a brilliant military strategy, to the YLH it is all illiteracy, in their own way each of them are the collaborators of the jihadists.

nazarhayatkhan #38 - Your secularism has no basis, no rationale, and frankly it is not very coherent. If you truly want to be a good and solid secularist, i can suggest a few good books for you to read.

I went through Pakistani schools. I NEVER saw a question about calculating the area of mosques. Even if I did, after all i was in a country where 99% of the students are muslims, it did not raise my Islamic spirits enough to cause me or my classmates to bunk school and offer our zuhar prayers in the nearby mosque or to sign up for jihad in Kashmir.

My Physics book was the same that my teachers, and perhaps their own teachers had studied in their school days. But you don`t want to talk about the OUTDATED curriculum. Your masters` instructions are to focus only on the few relgious lines included in the text. So we move on.

Same was true with my chemistry book. My biology book had endless chapters on the respiratory and digestive system of frogs. And just to keep our teenage hormones in high gear, it also had a chapter on the sex life (reproductory system) of frogs. I never saw any mention of Islam in those chapters. And even if i did, it did not cause me and my friends to avoid standing outside our school gate and wave at the girls from a nearby all-girls school.

Admit it NHK, your slave instincts have made you jump to your masters commands even before you had the time to understand and think through so as to at least articulate your point without bumbling in all directions. If you are really sincere about advancing our education system, please do something about the aparthied urdu/english medium divide. That divide has caused more damage to our national fabric than any quranic verses did.

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hamidm is right!

...even tho` he hasn`t said it yet;)

before messing with the curriculum...provide water...to drink...to clean up...get the mindset away from 6th century istanja...(if you don`t know what it is believe me you don`t want to know)

first step towards mental liberation is physical liberation...

a pitcher of clean drinking water a day and a working toilet for every citizen!...and while we are at it down with the occupying army...

...ok enough inspiration for a cloudy sunday morning...hamidm...order the flanks to move!

...t

ps: beena you better show up here:)

Could anyone please tell me what Qur`anic verses we are discussing in the curriculum?

I used to teach Pakistan Studies, and in that subject there is a lot falsehoods and misrepresentation of facts and biased jehadi references, but there were no Qur`anic verses.

Personally, I think that the MMA is confused and that is because they cannot read simple sentences and if they did, they would realize that they are claiming to defend something, which does not even exist! I wonder how many of MMA champions of Pakistan`s educational have actually opened one of these text books and read them?

In my opinion, politics has to be removed from education in Pakistan and politicians should not decide what should be the curriculum, but qualified eductionists. I will even go one step further and suggest that education in Pakistan should made secular; it should be separated from religion and politics and the students should be taught to read everything but to think for themselves.

Minds should not be straitjacketed.

Ciao

interesting article on PMA in the washington post today. The reporter notes the interesting mix of british military traditions and quotations from the Quran at PMA. Mentions how Zia messed up the military by trying to elevate regimental maulvis (didnt work, as we know) and by promoting maulvi officers, and by subsequent quiet crackdown on the same whereby maulvi officers were quietly moved to non-sensitive posts. Progress in de-ziafication of the army is measured in number of bearded officers passing out from Kakul. Latest count, 30 beards out of 225 graduates (about 12 percent). Improvement from last year when it was 45 beards. This count was by the US military attache attending the parade, along with other military attaches from other countries. However, the ISI officer the reporter talked to refused to accept these figures, saying that only long beards counted since those were the ones the military worried about. And curriculum at PMA in fact focussed on political science, computers, military history and tactics.

So nothing much seems to have changed from the time I was growing up in the military cantonments when the focus was on professionalism, and whatever mischief zia introduced in the military is now being undone.

allah o` akbar !

malik99 and echo and all these other muslim schizophrenics are getting their shorts all in a knot for nothing ......... they have nothing to fear - islam, ignorance, and idiocy are well and alive in pakistan and there is absolutely no danger that the people will change their text books or start using deodrant any time in the near future :

ISLAMABAD, April 3: Educational institutions` syllabus must not contain anything that is contrary to tenets of Islam and the ideology of Pakistan, s at educational institutions of the country , says Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali.

He said this while chairing a meeting attended by federal minister for education, all provincial education ministers, federal and provincial secretaries of education, representatives of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir and the Northern Areas here at the Prime Minister`s Secretariat.

Referring to complaints regarding deletion of Quranic verses from the syllabus of 9th and 10th classes, Mr Jamali directed that these verses should be incorporated in the curriculum of 9th and 10th classes by all the provinces.

The meeting also decided that the curriculum for biology for class IX and X, as had previously been approved by the competent forum and circulated in 1995 by the Ministry of Education, in so far it relates to relevant Islamic teachings - awareness of Holy Quran`s teachings about animals, plants life and the origins of life may be retained and Quranic verses/translations as they existed in the past may be restored.

The meeting decided that curriculum for biology for class XI and XII as approved and circulated in 2000 by the Ministry of Education may be followed.

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temporal,

............ thanks for the pinch hit

reg Malik99 on the post by NHK whose truth speak shines as usual!

I repeat the post by johnny_bravvo

#22 by johnny_bravvo on April 3, 2004 7:05am PT
Its Muslims who need to be reformed...not Islam.

And on the subject of distorted history lessons in our curriculum...yes there is an urgent need to get rid of narrow minded and shallow ideas that are being spoonfed to our school goers...
Although we cram up most of what is written in the books without giving a thought but these things stay stuck in our sub-conscious...and distort our ability to think clearly...and to accept mistakes that we have made...we only learn to glorify ourselves...or to belittle others...
thats what is being taught in our school books

malik99:

These guys (the slaves) are pissing in their pants . In their tiny minds they think themselves to be evolved beings. Just because such junkies are now being allowed in the areas where previously ``dogs & Indians not allowed`` they are now deluded to label themselves parrhaa-likhha, maaadren, pissfrothdrinker, and fornicator.

How pathetic that now a uniformed [ O how proudly they write retd . col or brig, or gen.--retd means retarded to us] and a machine-operator has the gaul to sit among the educated ones. No wonder Pakistan is in a mess--the ``self-respect`` which these shoe-shine boys award themselves because no one else in the nation gives it to them.

To the author: Please find something worthwhile to do with your time. Try to write and talk in Urdu and soon you will find out your learning level. Just like the villager who thinks even a gaali in arabic is holy, so do our english-medium types think that soc. and pol. sci [ghetto subjects] is ``education``.

They DARE not un-Islamise any curriculla and they MUST not let the new-quadyaanis-on-the-block mess around with muslim children`s minds. There would be consequences which hitherto are not even whispered. These frauds do not need more exposure, they need to be exposed.

End of discussion on this `optimistic` article.

Jayaprakash Thackerey...

What we have enumerated are real problems with the educational system... I was of this opinion in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003... nothing you could say or do can influence me...

You are the product of the fanatical and bigoted RSS ideology... and you have your own issues you need to tackle... you commenting on our education system is like Asif Naqshbandi lecturing Vajpayee on secular democracy.

-YLH

Mantolives #42 Those are interesting figures for minorities in Pakistan. They are higher than I thought to be the case. What is the source of these figures? Incidentally, I think you also need to include the kalaash people of the north, known for their colorful costumes.

Malik99...

Which country do you live in which has a 99% Muslim population? It is certainly not Pakistan... Please refer to my post #42.

Calling NazarhayatKhan slave because he is advocating what is sane and reasonable for Pakistan is just sad... while he might not be savvy with details... his idea of a modern democratic and secular Pakistan is just, fair and in the interest of Pakistan... We can`t allow TNT, a misunderstood cultural theory (and inaccurately named) which achieved its purpose and was discarded by Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan himself, to be rehashed as Islamic ideology. This is the real history.

People like you are fodder for people like Sadna who excel at lying about Pakistan and Pakistanis...

-YLH

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...time to reintroduce the Proud Muslims Tarana with the same advisory;)…from the archives…for the tunnel-visioned regressives...

Proud Muslim`s Tarana

come then sing with me, come and sing with me
for am a muslim, a proud muslim
come and sing with me a proud muslim
on sleeves proudly I wear my badge
a book, a mat, a mark on my forehead
chant la ilaha illall’lah with me
I eat and pray and multiply
from a handful to a billion plus
for am a muslim, a proud muslim
five times a day I bow to the unseen
then I cock the gun and win some converts
come and sing with me a proud muslim
equal opportunity killer.

I kill for honour, I kill for pride
I kill for my Allah, my prophet
it matters not for me whom you follow
I kill jews, christians and hindus
believers non believers matter not
tall , short, dark, fair, old or young am an
equal opportunity killer
come and sing with me a proud muslim
when I run out of infidels I’ll kill
sunnis, shias, deobandis, barelvis

I kill for honour, I kill for pride
I kill for my Allah, my prophet
it matters not for me whom you follow
in the name of the Most Benificient
equal opportunity killer
card carrying proud muslim, that’s me
come and sing with me a proud muslim!

echo: How do you add urdu text or picture in replies? :)

The Religion of Peace?

Once there was a thief who got caught stealing fruit from a garden. Here is how the argument took place between him and the gardener:

Thief: Look! I was helpless. God willed it. You know nothing happens unless God wills it. So when I stole the fruit I did it according to God’s will hence I deserve no punishment.

Gardener: Yes you are right, but the club, which is about to you hit on your head, is also God’s will. Now you shouldn’t complain and shouldn’t try to move; Ok?

The imperialist thugs, who have had monopoly on violence for the past 400 years, are like those thieves who got caught with their pants halfway down on 9/11. For 400 years they have been stealing our natural resources, corrupting our people, and running our nations through puppets. And now when Muslim is awakening they try to remind us how peaceful our religion is? Islam is not a religion of peace; it is the religion of justice. Peace without justice is impossible. Islam doesn’t teach us to present the other cheek; it teaches us to stop the hand of aggressor who torments the weak and helpless. They may ban our religion; they may corrupt our religion; they may play one masquerade or the other, but they cannot steal the sense of justice and equity from human beings. Religion or no religion – justice is the destiny of human beings – and religion Islam is just one way to get to that destiny.

Cleaning of the `hate` and `jehad` material from the mainstream schools is alright but what about the Madrissas which are mainly taught the Islamic literature which is prtected by Allah himself the say and therefore cannot be touched and they have laws prescribing
punishment for those who dare to make a change in them. Some of the Ahadees are so out of tune with our modern life that people touch their ears when they come across them incidently. I give a sample here which shows how a blind Sahabi deals with his loundi who disobeys him:
Sunnan Abudawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.























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temporal #57 Good to see you back in action. In response no doubt Echosqueeeeek will print the entire saturday and sunday jang akhbaar in the urdu script.

Here is my addition to what you wrote:

There was some damned mullahs in Wana
Who said ``Fight to the death, we gonna!!``
On seeing the Pak jawans appear
They wet their shalwars, they dropped their gear
And cried ``Dont shoot! dont shoot! In the name of Allah
We only kill women and children, you hear!!``

Author: Do something worthwhile. Join MAULANA sattar edhhi. Look walk and talk like a Pakistani muslim and you might start to make some sense.


It was this news item which the english press is reporting in a manner that would cater to their masters.

For the self-styled secularists like tahmed32, NHK, and Mantolives, if we continue to be west`s whore, that day is not far when the West will tell us that our curriculum is not sufficiently tolerant towards gays and lesbians. And that the lesbians book for children called ``Heather Has Two Moms``, or the gays` book for children called ``My Two Dads`` become a required reading for your children.

If you are for allowing your kids to `discover` religion on their own, then let them discover their sexulaity on their own too. Let your sons have the choice of being the `butt boys` and your girls `carpet munchers`. Really, why restrict their freedom to chose to religion only?

Zain Malik

How many poeple on Chowk went to Urdu medium schools? My guess is: NONE. Or maybe 1 or 2. Where is that vast majority of Pakistan`s urdu medium school graduates? Why are they not showing up on the internet and in the discussion boards of Chowk? May be they are too busy in the cycle workshops. May be they have yet to discover this `internet` thingy.

If we were a truly free nation, we would know that the aparthied english/urdu medium divide is the biggest problem that Pakistan faces. For most of these Urdu medium graduates, education ends at the martic level. After that they don`t have the means and the intellect to compete with english medium students for college seats, or for any jobs. The hopelessness and despair these overwhelming mahority of young people is far more heart wrenching and far more destructive than the inclusion / exclusion of verses.

Just some interesting information how this Islamic zeal is affecting our nation`s productivity:

Some Air Hostesses who began wearing Hijab in PIA had to be moved to other ground positions. The PIA management could not throw them out because of their religious right.....?

Some Male Cabin attendants who were wearing very long beards were asked by the manageent to trim them. They replied that their sect says that no hair from the beared is to be trimmed throughout the life. Management could not do anything except for taking them off from flights going to US, Canada or Europe.

So be ready to be served on the PIA by sadhus.

malik99,

..........you know about j edgar hoover and other homophobes like him, don`t you? .......... it is not healthy to hate people because of their sexuality .......... and what about gilmans?...... you hate them too?

hamidm #66 - Your idiotic post is incoherent and really does not make sense. Let me explain myself:

I am for live and let live. I DO NOT hate homosexuals AT ALL. However, I will do everything in my abilities to make sure that my children do not take that route. The point I was making in my post # 64 was that these feeble, baseless, beginner ``secularists`` on chowk who preach ``freedom to chose`` for the wrecthed and poor people of Pakistan, should be prepared to give the same freedom to chose to their own children - not only in religion, but also in life style (hetro / homo).

There is a movement in US schools to include ``sexual orientation neutral`` curriculum. The two gays / lesbian books that I mentioned earlier are in fact being pushed to be taught in schools. There are some christian and citizen organizations which are fighting tooth and nail to stop this. There is no wonder that `home schooling` is increasingly becoming an option for concerned parents.

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#64 by malik99

“…then let them discover their sexulaity on their own too.”

Despite your strong sentiments on the issue, this will eventually happen in Pakistan.
Society and attitudes always change. Trend for the last 200 years is towards the west as the west is providing leadership in pretty much all progress in the world. You are in the US because you thought this education is best for you. Others back home should have this choice too. You can’t have two sets of rules one for yourself and another for less fortunate.
BTW, how do you know it is not happening already????

“Let your sons have the choice of being the `butt boys` and your girls `carpet
munchers`. Really, why restrict their freedom to chose to religion only?”

As I said why should you be the person to have the choice? Or why are you choosing for them if at some point people want sexual choices then how are you going to stop it. Legislate against it???

BTW, it is rumored that the Chief Minister of Sindh is gay. He would never admit it but why should he have to hide it?

I think the correct usage for “rug munchers” is for man & not for female. Nobody uses “Butt boys” either. You must have been reading up the old stuff.

malik99,

..... sorry, i didn`t explain myself a little better ..... roy chohen was edgar hoover`s boyfriend and edgar was the biggest homophobe ever born........does that explains it ?

....as for doing `` everything in my abilities to make sure that my children do not take that route``........... it is none of my business and i do believe people don`t ``choose`` to be homosexual unless they are from the northwest frontier............

malik #69 you write ``that day is not far when the West will tell us that our curriculum is not sufficiently tolerant towards gays and lesbians.``

As i said before, until that day arrives - and given that you have failed to either acknowledge or counter the logic against what you are saying as i had presented earlier to you - you would be well advised to cool it. Since that way people will not confuse you with the genuine fools we have on chowk.

every one teaches the religion in their schools, from jews to hindus, then whats wrong with muslims, its the religion above all so thre is no harm in having jahad things in textbooks.
moreover, media is the most efficient media, it can change movements and people,
whoever has the media power he can rule, and these dayz they have it. and rhey ruling u.becuase u r week, and u dont wana b strong and stand against them as u r coward to death.
you have built like this, so that you wont say a word against them so that they can rule on you.
``ilm ek aisi taqat hai jis sey qoumoun per hukomat kerna asaan ho jata hai.``
unhoun nein hamara talemi nizam kharab kia aur ek fuzool too ta phota nizam dey gaye.. which we still following. we need to change that.

tahmed32 # 70 - Lets cut the intellectual smoke screen. Give us an answer in yes/no to the following question:

Would you allow your 6th grade children to read the gay/lesbian books that are being pushed in US schools?

Please do not go in hyperboles. Just state for this board in yes / no terms.

humairshah #72 If everybody jumps into the well (as the urdu saying goes), do you jump in as well? I think you should use your own mind.

I am all for having a religious class in addition to other classes - but NOT for muslims. This will sound strange, so please read carefully: I say this not with pleasure but with sadness, because I feel the Quran has a lot of good things to teach us. HOWEVER, Islam has been so badly distorted by the mullahs, and the message of the Quran so totally overrun by their sharia and other self-serving rubbish, that what is being passed as Islam is nothing but a projection of the evil mind of the mullah. Let people teach their children the real message of Islam themselves - as I have done. This is a message of peace and respect for all religions, affection (not hate) for all people. Forgiveness, not holding on to grudges. Islam is a message of individual responsibility to God, not individual responsibility to an ``ummah`` headed by a self-appointed mullah with his self-created rules geared to reduce women to sex objects that should walk around in a shroud, rather than as self-respecting human beings.

Dont expect a damned maulvi to teach them anything like the above. He will at best teach them how to read the Quran like a parrot, without a clue on what the Quran is all about - let alone any in-depth examination of the underlying fundamentals. In extreme cases, the mullah will go beyond teaching children to be parrots, and beyond reducing Quran to a meaningless magical talisman, and will teach his own hate filled rubbish that violates every tenet of Islam. And in Pakistan, unless they ban maulvis from the classroom, they should not teach any religion at all.

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MALIK #73 You have not responded to the points I made earlier, and simply brushed them aside. Why do you presume to ask me questions when you refuse to first either counter or acknowledge the points I made?

Not that your question is difficult to answer - but lets keep things straight. First you respond to the points I took the trouble of bringing to your attention, then come and talk to me about your concerns about homosexuality and I will address them without any problem.

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jehad in biology? will wonders never cease?

malik, hamid etc. it`s tough enough to keep a straight face when our poor teachers tried to teach us about ``sex education``, I seriously can`t imagine what teaching gay sex education must be like...

re: malik99, urstruly and echoboom (various posts)

I agree that the divide between urdu medium and english medium education has poisoned Pakistan and it is the most rancourous division in Pakistan, because of the long term implications its generates in Pakistani society.

However, one needs to be of balanced view and ask the question as to who created this educational divide in Pakistan? More importantly, who is insisting on keeping urdu as a medium of instruction in Pakistan? The bitter reality is that urdu has no economic viability outside of Pakistan and in the age of increasing globalization, urdu is not going to generate any economic opportunities for Pakistan. The youth of Pakistan need to be prepared for the future and I am sorry, but urdu has no future either in Pakistan or outside of it. Pakistani educational medium needs to be english, because that is the lingua franca of the international commerce, whether we like it or not.

Having said that, Pakistan needs to end this useless debate on english or urdu medium as a means of instruction. This is not the only problem, because in the name of provincial rights, each province claims to champion its provincial language and seeks its inclusion into the national curriculum. The end result of all this non-sense is that Pakistan has no coherent language of instruction in its schools and all it teaches is an incoherent confusion to its students. Pakistan cannot economically progress unless the economic distribution of wealth is harmonized between its people and as long as we have two equal but seperate modes of instruction, economic wealth will never be distributed in an equitable sense within Pakistan.

Granted that most students do not have the financial means to afford an english based education, but blame for this failure lies with the government of Pakistan and not with the poor economic status of the students. The government should provide scholarships and in this sense, the government needs to implement a socialist educational policy for Pakistan on a war footing, because each year that such a policy is delayed is another generation whose future is wasted by the bureaucratic indifference.

This means that the teacher must be paid market based salaries and not the cruel joke, which passes as their salary. Teachers need money to survive and make their ends meet and they cannot exist on ``islamic educational ideology of Pakistan`` alone as the Prime Minister of Pakistan mistakenly thinks. For example, the begining salary of a teacher, with a master`s degree (in any subject) is between Rs. 4,000-6,000 a month in Aitchison College and teachers, with twenty years plus of experience are making around Rs.15,000 to 20,000. This is insufferable! Aitchison College has nearly 3,000 students and each student`s annual tution expense is around Rs. 60,000.

The social position of the teacher has to be upgraded over the social status based professions of doctors and engineers and business wo/man, and a simple fact drilled into the society`s head that without teachers teaching the future generation, a society ceases to develop, progress and ceases to exist. This change is not about legislating new curriculum, but about re-brainwashing the filthy corrupt mentality of the society into making it value education over other greed based materialism. Pakistanis do not value education as much as they pride flouting the laws and being the exception to the case and not the norm. That means that the teacher`s economic needs have to be provided and the real issue is not the inclusion or the exclusion of Qur`anic verses or jehadi paeans or religion in education, but the hunger pains in the stomach and in this battle, the needs of the stomach will always win over the ``Islamic ideology of the state of Pakistan``.

Even if this needed change happens, a teacher needs to be provided with realistic tools and if the intention of the educational system is wrong or misplaced, the qualifications and the effort of the teacher is meaningless. In other words, the teachers must teach that, which is going to be a requirement of the future and the job of the teacher is to prepare his/her students for the future and the future of education lies in a curriculum which is orientated, if not based, upon a western methodology of instruction. Pakistan lives and exists within a world, which is increasingly being dominated by a western ethos of education and the world is not going to live within Pakistan and start learning urdu to be economically viable.

On a humorous side, Pakistan can wish all the outsourcing jobs it wants, but it will get none if it maintains an utopian wish that all outsourcing jobs need a requirement in urdu as a skill of communications with the rest of the world. If Pakistanis want jobs in the global market, they have to read Adam Smith and understand the law of supply and demand not quote medieval dictums. A Qur`anic education is designed for the salvation of the person in the hereafter and it is not designed to get a job on the Economic Street of global reality in the temporal world. A person should indeed prepare their souls for the next life, but the Qur`an does not say that one should strave just to be considered as a good Muslim; how is Allah to judge you, when in your vanity and pride you cause the suffering and stravation of your family by not gaining the skills, which allow you to get a job to feed them? The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) told the Muslims that they must journey as far as China to get education and the collorary to that is, they had to learn in Chinese since the Chinese were not learning Arabic in hope that the Arabs would come to their learning institutions.

You all live in the west and you speak english and you have prospered as a result of english and yet you wish to keep your fellow humans in intellectual bondage by insisting they learn no trait and speak urdu?

Freedom of education or the need to study a western based education does not misplace your inner moral core, as you seem to be mistakenly assuming.

People were aware of the notions of right and wrong long before religion was even dreamt by the prophets of the old. Religion does not teach us decency; decency was taught to us by our grandmothers and they taught us what was right and what was wrong. Homophobia is not religion based but based on your own personal insecurities and complexes and it is the height of arrogance, which deems to judge for others and does not allow them to judge for themselves. Religion can be the most strongest force on the planet, but it cannot override the biological impluse of sex. Sex is a biological necessity and it is a part of our humanity and no religious force can make us to deny our humunity and that which does, creates resentment and problems and solves nothing, which it claims to prevent.

If you have faith in the goodness of the people and in the judgement of their choice, then you need not be afraid even though they are exposed to all the inequities of the world. Just because western education might teach a tolerance of homosexuality, it does not mean that we all will become homosexuals just by tolerating them. This is ad hoc agrument, with a flawed structure. There are millions of people who are living in cities, where there are homosexuals also living and are exposed to them, but it does not mean we will all turn into homosexuals. Those, who do not have faith in the decency and intelligence of their fellow humans, will always seek to impose their view on others; not because they are right, but because they are insecure and afraid of plurality of opinions. If homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God, then let God judge the sin and sinner and it is not your right to judge others, over whom God has reserved His judgement. If you have raised your children to the true light of all you hold dear and cherish, and have faith in the morality of the character of your children, then they will what you have taught them and will never disappoint you in their decisions, but you have to trust them in their choices.

As to calling others and identifying them as slaves and whores of the west, because they follow a path of choice, which you do not agree with, smacks of the hollowness of your sense of virtue and not their crime. In a sense, we are all whores, because we do what is needed to live in this world and we compromise our principles. For the sake of money, we assume any position which is required of us in our professional lives and travel to far reaches of the world for the sake of money and gainful employment. What made you move to the places where you now live and work? Faith or the economics of money and employment? I have yet to meet a person who quit their good paying jobs because of the principles of their morality. Is such be the case and you act out of your interests for money, then what does that make you?

If a whore be honest and does not cheat her customers, then there is no shame in being a whore for shame resides only in the eye of the beholder. There is no shame in a profession, if under the personal limitations of reality you are eeking out a honest life without hurting others and this consideration also applies to all the whores in the world.

If I speak english and if I am considered as a whore for attending an english medium school, then I would rather be a whore with a future than be a chaste woman without a future.

You have no right or moral authority to deny me my choice of profession by calling it immoral unless you provide me with alternative profession. I will gladly give up my erring ways and adopt your wisdom, if you can gurantee me that your way will gain me an employment that meets my needs and if not, then keep your opinions to yourself and let us live as best as we can in world and we need to live in this world by our wits and not by your prejudices.

Ciao

Ferozk # 79 - You wrote: ``... yet you wish to keep your fellow humans in intellectual bondage by insisting they learn no trait and speak urdu?``

This is utter non-sense. I never suggested that Urdu be the medium of instruction. In fact, if I had the power, I would make english the ONLY medium of instruction in Pakistan. My issue with people like you is that you have picked up one issue given to you by the west, that of inclusion/exclusion of certain verses in text - while ingnoring the CRISIS level issues that our education system faces. That is not the trait of an independent mind or original thinking. That is a trait of slavery or herd-mentality. The issue of which quranic verses to include / exclude is VERY low in the list of CRISIS level issues.

I would venture to say that providing free lunches to children, like it is done in west, should be much higher in priority. Not only it could be an incentive for poor children to attend school, it would also ensure that our impoverished children are AT LEAST getting one good meal a day.

I commend you for doing a fine job of bringing to surface some other EXTREMELY important issues, such as, teachers salaries, qualified teachers, scholarships, ONE medium of instruction, education opportunities on ``war footing`` etc. Your one sentence says it all: `` the teacher`s economic needs have to be provided and the real issue is not the inclusion or the exclusion of Qur`anic verses or jehadi paeans or religion in education, but the hunger pains in the stomach``. ABSOLUTELY !!! If you were in front of me, I would hug you man !

Ferozk: You among all other chowkies has finally cut through the intellectual bullsh!t and stated the raw facts. FINALLY, after 80 something posts, we are beginning to talk about the REAL issues in Pakistani educational system. And not merely picking on the bones thrown to us by west. GOOD JOB.

As for your discourse on `whores` - well, there are people out there who equate marriage with prostituition too. So I am not going to get into that discussion. Lets keep focus on the education system.

tahmed32 # 75 - I did not ignore your post # 29. Not only I read it, I read it very carefuly. I did not brush aside any of the arguments you make, however I was not sure how it addressed the real issue at hand: Why we as the free and independent people are not prioritizing our own issues and why we are letting others define us. The replacement of certain verses in text maybe an important issue for West, but it is certainly not the most critical issue for Pakistan. Teachers salaries, school lunches, teachers training, outdated text, medium of instruction etc are the issues which any education expert in Pakistan will tell you are THE CRISIS level issues. So why this hoopla and wastage of national debate on inclusion / exclusion of verses?

You made some good points about the role of NGOs and the positive contributions of westerners in Pakistan. However, again, my contention - and as i understand the crux of this article suggests, is how do we prioritise our CRISIS level issues in education system.

And by the way, I commend the steps taken by your nephew. He is a hero and a beacon of hope for wretched children in Pakistan.

Zain Malik

malik #81 That`s much better. We can thus have a discussion, which is obviously vastly superior to having an argument. So, in that spirit of a friendly and honest discussion, let me respond to the points you make.

1. ``I was not sure how it addressed the real issue at hand: Why we as the free and independent people are not prioritizing our own issues and why we are letting others define us.``

Fair enough. My view is that this is NOT the real issue. The real issue is: How do we ensure that proper education is spread as rapidly and as effectively as possible to all Pakistanis? This is issue has to do with why we are letting others prioritize our issues. Having made this point, my previous post then focussed on the real issue as I saw it.

Let me come back then to this question and respond to it directly: While there is no doubt that the US is pressuring Pakistan to get rid of the jehadi networks, I dont think this issue (getting mullahisms out of biology and physics) per se has been a major issue in US-Pakistan relations. It is simply too narrow an issue. Individuals like Hoodbhoy have been calling for removal of this nonsense for years.

2. ``Teachers salaries, school lunches, teachers training, outdated text, medium of instruction etc are the issues which any education expert in Pakistan will tell you are THE CRISIS level issues.``

The above are important issues, but not the most important one. The most important ones are (a) failure of the public school education system. Government teachers may get paid less than they should - but the problem is that they many of those on the payroll dont show up for work. In Africa we used to talk of ``ghost teachers`` - in Pakistan I heard them talk of ``ghost schools``!! (b) tiny share of public sector budget going to education.

More important even than the above issues, are in fact the STRENGTHS we have to build upon. After all, we build our strategy on strength, not weaknesses. So, let me point out two strategic strengths we have: (a) success of NGO schools - I once heard a woman from Lahore tell us how her NGO specializes in taking over failed government schools and turning them into successful NGO schools in the Lahore area. (b) high value to education even in the most backward areas of Pakistan. This has been reported by a number of NGOs, including a colonel sahib I know who has opened 60 girls schools in the Mianwali area. He said that parents contribute to building schoolhouses in villages in hopes that the school will give their children a better life.

So, it is not that getting rid of the mullah nonsense is mutually exclusive to the above work. These are all complementary things going on to help give our next generation a better chance in life.

malik99.

............you asked: ``Would you allow your 6th grade children to read the gay/lesbian books that are being pushed in US schools? Please do not go in hyperboles. Just state for this board in yes / no terms. ``

.................the answer is an unqualified ``yes``..........i assume that my children (17 and 11) are so comfortable with their sexuality that, unlike insecure