Jehad and The Curriculum

tahmed32 # 75 - I did not ignore your post # 29. Not only I read it, I read it very carefuly. I did not brush aside any of the arguments you make, however I was not sure how it addressed the real issue at hand: Why we as the free and independent people are not prioritizing our own issues and why we are letting others define us. The replacement of certain verses in text maybe an important issue for West, but it is certainly not the most critical issue for Pakistan. Teachers salaries, school lunches, teachers training, outdated text, medium of instruction etc are the issues which any education expert in Pakistan will tell you are THE CRISIS level issues. So why this hoopla and wastage of national debate on inclusion / exclusion of verses?

You made some good points about the role of NGOs and the positive contributions of westerners in Pakistan. However, again, my contention - and as i understand the crux of this article suggests, is how do we prioritise our CRISIS level issues in education system.

And by the way, I commend the steps taken by your nephew. He is a hero and a beacon of hope for wretched children in Pakistan.

Zain Malik

malik #81 That`s much better. We can thus have a discussion, which is obviously vastly superior to having an argument. So, in that spirit of a friendly and honest discussion, let me respond to the points you make.

1. ``I was not sure how it addressed the real issue at hand: Why we as the free and independent people are not prioritizing our own issues and why we are letting others define us.``

Fair enough. My view is that this is NOT the real issue. The real issue is: How do we ensure that proper education is spread as rapidly and as effectively as possible to all Pakistanis? This is issue has to do with why we are letting others prioritize our issues. Having made this point, my previous post then focussed on the real issue as I saw it.

Let me come back then to this question and respond to it directly: While there is no doubt that the US is pressuring Pakistan to get rid of the jehadi networks, I dont think this issue (getting mullahisms out of biology and physics) per se has been a major issue in US-Pakistan relations. It is simply too narrow an issue. Individuals like Hoodbhoy have been calling for removal of this nonsense for years.

2. ``Teachers salaries, school lunches, teachers training, outdated text, medium of instruction etc are the issues which any education expert in Pakistan will tell you are THE CRISIS level issues.``

The above are important issues, but not the most important one. The most important ones are (a) failure of the public school education system. Government teachers may get paid less than they should - but the problem is that they many of those on the payroll dont show up for work. In Africa we used to talk of ``ghost teachers`` - in Pakistan I heard them talk of ``ghost schools``!! (b) tiny share of public sector budget going to education.

More important even than the above issues, are in fact the STRENGTHS we have to build upon. After all, we build our strategy on strength, not weaknesses. So, let me point out two strategic strengths we have: (a) success of NGO schools - I once heard a woman from Lahore tell us how her NGO specializes in taking over failed government schools and turning them into successful NGO schools in the Lahore area. (b) high value to education even in the most backward areas of Pakistan. This has been reported by a number of NGOs, including a colonel sahib I know who has opened 60 girls schools in the Mianwali area. He said that parents contribute to building schoolhouses in villages in hopes that the school will give their children a better life.

So, it is not that getting rid of the mullah nonsense is mutually exclusive to the above work. These are all complementary things going on to help give our next generation a better chance in life.

malik99.

............you asked: ``Would you allow your 6th grade children to read the gay/lesbian books that are being pushed in US schools? Please do not go in hyperboles. Just state for this board in yes / no terms. ``

.................the answer is an unqualified ``yes``..........i assume that my children (17 and 11) are so comfortable with their sexuality that, unlike insecure people like you, they don`t have to worry about this crap ........ as a matter of fact one of my daughter`s best friends recently ``came out of the closet`` and he is still welcome at my house ......... however i am deeply disappointed because i really liked the kid and thought he would have made a great son-in-law............. just goes to show that you can`t trust your parent`s judgement !......... is that good enought for you?

The more languages one can master the better it is. English LANGUAGE must be mastered but not CULTURE and of-course NEVER at the expense of losing what is ones own..regional AND national!

Such scum does not exist anywhere in the world except Pakistan. 90% of time and energy gets wasted in becoming a stage actor, acquiring props (e.g:cigar, pipe & liquor) and dreaming of becoming Michael Jackson.


It is unfortunate that the illiterates in Pakistan (``I know German too etc etc but not Urdu. but I exist in Pakistan but live in U.S``) cannot read this but make bombastic comments about knowing something about education. Oh! they teach & get paid. What more can be the curse on a country.

Ever met anyone anywhere who takes pride in not-knowing something and claim it as an asset? Sure! they abound in the Twinkle-Twinkle schools..a dime a dozen.

Name one single individual from the twinkle-twinkle schools system which has produced a learned person in Pakistan (pre or post-partition). Jinnah was from Sind MADRESSA-tul-Islam. Never ever forget that. Include THAT in the syllabus. Impress that in Pakistan studies.

The Canadian Ambassador to Pakistan reads & writes chaste Urdu. He considers it an asset to his job. Those who do not take instructions from outsiders are not fit to teach ( or even exist with honour & dignity)

Laanat on the real terrorists in Pakistan.The lowest of the low in Pakistan. Nothing will change unless a Vana is conducted on these vultures.

Ref nazarhayatkhan #38

[Then you find fairly educated suited-booted Pakistanis trying to prove Scientific theories through Scripture. One favourite is that holy book says that man was created out of a honey-like liquid. (any teenager could make this observation) ]

Have you heard this priceless Urban Legend that has been making the rounds?

The professor in biochemistry was talking about the composition of semen. He said that glucose was one of the components.

A girl asked, ``Glucose, like in sugar? Then why doesn`t it taste sweet?``

Realizing her blunder, she gathered up her books and left the classroom but not before the professor shot back, ``That is because the tastebuds specific to sugar are in the front of the tongue!``

I have come across a number of Islamists who have privately shown a keen interest in all the `un-natural` acts including masturbation.
One of these chaps was a compulsive jerker- and would jerk off twice a day once after waking up and once before going to sleep. A real nice guy- I liked him a lot, but he had a fetish for black burqa. Infact many of the religious persons demonstrate a strong libido- may be malik can explain why!

#59 by Urstruly on April 4, 2004 5:28pm PT

`` The imperialist thugs, who have had monopoly on violence for the past 400 years, are like those thieves who got caught with their pants halfway down on 9/11. For 400 years they have been stealing our natural resources, corrupting our people, and running our nations through puppets. And now when Muslim is awakening they try to remind us how peaceful our religion is? Islam is not a religion of peace; it is the religion of justice. Peace without justice is impossible. Islam doesn’t teach us to present the other cheek; it teaches us to stop the hand of aggressor who torments the weak and helpless. They may ban our religion; they may corrupt our religion; they may play one masquerade or the other, but they cannot steal the sense of justice and equity from human beings. Religion or no religion – justice is the destiny of human beings – and religion Islam is just one way to get to that destiny. ``


Similarly, it will also be the will of god oneday for uncle Sam to wakeup and deal with muslims the hardest way possible. For example, uncle Sam can threaten Osama Bin Laden and his other cave dwelling buddies that one more terror attack and Uncle Sam will begin parking a nuclear submarine outside of every frikking muslim country. One more terror attack and uncle Sam will order all it`s submarine fleet to take out whole frikking muslim world and reduce it in to ashes. After that it will all be a happy story in the world.

Actually, this makes me think that muslims are not all that macho at all. The brain dead jehadis might pose like that but really.... whoever they are fighting with in the world, they are the ones getting humiliated finally. In fact, if uncle Sam really uses his full power, looks like he can get away with beating the pulp out of Jehadis. In fact, Uncle sam can easily make the Jehadis wear fine hyderabadi bangles and create a freak show in Las vegas.

#76 by arjun_m on April 5, 2004 8:50am PT

``Actually India doesn`t have religion as a course in school``

You are a liar!!!! They are still teaching Hanuman in primary schools or that is your picture in the books???
Isn’t that monkey your god????

Arjunm

Come to Pakistan... it will shatter the mythology that you have built about Pakistan. Sadly I doubt that you have the courage to do that. How else will you live, if the object of your hate turns out to be something quite different?


tahmed,

The Pakistan Christian Congress (http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com) actually projects 15 million plus christians alone in Pakistan. While I can`t comment on the veracity of this information ... I am aware that in Punjab alone there are over 5 million or so christians.... this is the view that the majority of the christian elders take. Near Lahore, there are towns like Yohannaabad have majority Christian populations... In Yohannaabad, the registered christian voters alone are 30000... in my area `Faisal Town` there are atleast 10 000 or so Christians ... most of them live in a village called `Yusufabad` which is now completely engulfed by Faisal Town... virtually indistinguishable from the rest. A number of villages that dot the canal into the south Lahore and onwards to Okara are Christian... Okara you might already know has a huge christian population... during my mother`s posting in Vehari, I came across a number of churches with congregations in that city... Multan is well known for its christian population. Sargodha, the other city I am associated with, is home to the head quarters of the Presbyterian Church USA of Pakistan... Peshawar and Quetta also have significant christian populations. The number of Christians in Karachi is higher than any other city and more apparent. According to the official estimates the Hindus in Pakistan are about 1.4 million or so. However it is a well known fact that Sukkur District of Sindh is majority Hindu... Similarly there is a very large population of Hindus in Karachi ... they belong to all walks of life.... If Ahmadis are also non-muslims as per the amendment... then ofcourse add another 5 to 6 million at the very least to this total. An estimated 3 million Ahmadi votes are there in the country... so the number might be even more.


In my opinion the total number of religious minorities is close to 15 or so million.... make them close to 10% of the total population.... no wonder the census figures were never really made public... that would have meant more reserved seats for minorities in the legislature... some 34 or so under the current counting. Imagine that? Figures used by international websites like CNN World fact book are taken from the Pakistan Government`s original figures... and are not based on actual research.

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Re: teaching religion in school, nope, not in my school (yes yes convent and all, but sirf naam ka, the only thing missionary about it was the positions the fathers preferred)

we had religion mandatory for the catholics, bloody fanatics they were didn`t even allow the protestants in :)), abrahams and mathews used to come with us for something called moral science. might explain how we grew up all skoolar and voting for the congress...

...then of course ninth standard (grade to you phirangees) or so came Ramayana on TV, and then BJP in power, mandir wahee banayengay, and life was never the same again...

re: malik99 # 80

I was not refering to ``you`` specifically in that post.

re: echoboom

I wish you all the luck in preserving your culture.

Culture is an evolving process and a culture cannot be frozen in time or in a mannerism. A culture is a process of fusion and it will never remain the same over a period of time. A culture, which is prevented from changing or evolving along side with new ideas becomes repressive and reactionary. Such a culture is marked by characteristics of intolerance, xenophobia and segregation of ideas. A culture is the embodiment of human experience and human experience cannot be caged and if it is; it will seek to break its chains and grow beyond its limitations.

A person trying to preserve their culture is a like a person attempting to forbid the waves of the ocean from washing onto the shore. It cannot be done and those who use force to attempt the impossible only end by destroying their societies.

Ciao

It is so amusing (and tragic at the same time) that the goraagoochaaters thoroughly relish their ability to contort their faces to preserve faarin accent and mismatched lifestyle. What tops it all is that these terrorists consider themselves not-ignorants and even yearn to teach & get paid to maintain their ``culture``.

A Vana is indeed waiting in the wings for these Paki goraagoochaaters. As Amanpour found out, those who would undo such scum would be from the same institutions where this art of goraagoochaating is drilled and instilled.

HaroonElahi is a great example: Fiercely & fearlessly muslim--a proud Pakistani.

Just as Jinnah hated the British and used the knowledge he acquired to belittle and ridicule them so will those who get the ``inside`` of the US and British thugs will use it to cleanse Pakistan & muslim world of neo-colonialism.

---

Culture clash sours American dream
Sunday 04 April 2004, 22:57 Makka Time, 19:57 GMT

Common practice in Asia may not be so in the United States


From a Mexican sued for sexual harassment over a friendly pat he gave a colleague to a Chinese arrested for selling live chickens, millions of US immigrants are not free to practise their native traditions.

``Touching or kissing a kid may be something natural in Latin America. Here in the States, it can be seen as sexual abuse,`` said Alison Renteln, author of The Cultural Defence.

Her book recounts hundred of stories of immigrants who violated US laws by practicing their own customs.

``For many immigrants, living in America is a cultural balancing act,`` the associate professor of political science at the University of Southern California told AFP.

``Touching or kissing a kid may be something natural in Latin America. Here in the States it can be seen as sexual abuse``

Alison Renteln,
author

``They struggle to preserve their native customs while conforming to laws of this country.``

``The owner of the Chinese live-animal food shop doesn`t get it. Why was she cited for selling live chickens when the Italian restaurant across the street boils dozens of live lobsters every day?``

Growing diversity

The Cultural Defence says Asians get into trouble most frequently, followed by Latinos. It just happens that Latinos and Asians are expected to triple their numbers here by 2050, while the numbers of Americans of European descent could be halved, according to the most recent US census.


In Yemen, qat is legal; in the US,it is a controlled substance

That is, Latinos are expected to increase from 35 million to 103 million. The 11 million Asians in the United States today will grow to 33 million.

Yet in a country that prides itself on the richness and diversity of its immigration, there is no legal framework for addressing the problem, Renteln said. She gives hundreds of examples in her book of the unexpected rigidity of US laws, especially when it comes to drugs.

``A man from Yemen is equally mystified. He was arrested for chewing qat leaves, which yield an effect comparable to drinking three espressos,`` Renteln said. ``Qat leaves, which are chewed like tobacco, are considered a controlled substance by the US Drug Enforcement Administration.``

She said a number of immigrants have been arrested for using the same leaves, which back home are culturally required for social gatherings and celebrations.

``In many instances, defendants coming from Kenya, Somalia and Yemen are astonished to find that the leaves are regarded as illegal drugs.``

Basic rights

Then, there is cockfighting, a pastime for many Latinos, but illegal in most US states, a felony in many.


Cockfighting is illegal in most US states and a felony in many

``The right to your culture is a basic human right,`` she said. ``Courts should be open to hear these kind of arguments.

``People may act in ways that seem totally out of line but make sense when you understand their customs and background.

``Although there is no official `cultural defence` in any legal system, courts often are left to decide whether a person`s culture can offer an explanation of behavior,`` said Renteln.

``Yet it is rare that a judge takes one`s customs and beliefs into account in criminal cases.``

In India, no schools teach religion as a course. However, some schools may have extra-curricular activities such as Saraswati Pooja, since saraswati is a goddess of learning. All other religious festivals are not celebrated in schools.

Unfortunately, Indian epics and other ancient works are also given a wide birth, and that is a big shame. So, some kids (from more elite schools) may learn more about Greek Mythology in school, but not about any ancient Indian literature.