How real is Musharraf’s real democracy?

Mohar11, my freind, the issue at hand is not primarily religious. The fact of the matter is, that the Pakistani Government has every right to do what it`s doing. The blood of the innocent is not at the hands of the Government, but on the tribal leaders that refused to let the Government adminster an area which was always meant to be adminstered by the Government. The fact that it should have been done much sooner, does not undermine the necessity of it being done now. The attack, therefore, has no religious connotations attached to it, subsequently the attacks on muslims in Kashmir were as much religious as they were political. I see nothing wrong with the Pakistani Army putting their allegience with Pakistan. We are but ``Pakistani`` Muslims (as indicated by President Musharaff), and it is the right of the Government to condemn any act which jeopardizes the the current standing of the country. The fact that the people doing so are Muslim, in no way, covers up for their inhuman behavior. The Pakistani Army of 70,000 is not killing the muslim women and children in Wana, it is protecting the millions of women and children in Pakistan, a fact that never supported India`s cause when it came to Kashmir.

#102 by ferozk

Sweet irony, ain`t it ... Pakis are defending against exactly the same charges they have been hurling at Indians for years. ``700,000 kafr army killing muslims in kashmir`` used to be favorite rant of pakis of all stripes.

Now - we got a 70,000 very muslim army killing very muslim women and children using chopper gunships. Did kafr army in kashmir ever use gunships on civilians in over decade of battling the freedom fighters? I am not sure.

Tauheed at # 97:

Boss, unfortunately, these facts come from my homefront. Whereas my relatives from paternal side are doing better economically (all of them living in Pakistan), my maternal side is into Mullaism, thanks primarily to an energetic Mamoon living in the foreign lands. Each day my brothers and I have to be responding to an emotionally written email chain that builds from my maternal cousins living across the globe.

Urstruly and malik99 both remind me of the contributors from that chain. And I know how people get into emotionalism. Its a campaign run by educated workers of Jamaat-e-Islami. My councillor cousins, when cornered, have no facts to base their allegations. As soon as they are cornered, they either rush to the bathroom, because the next prayer is always 2 hours later so they have to prepare for it now or leave the discussion saying, ``bhai Allah Malik hay``. Even if I we convince them on my point, after the prayers in the duaa, they pray for the same thing,``Aay Allah hamaary qabaileey bratheraan or Mujahidon ka Nigahbaan hoyey aur zaalim army walon kay khilaaf ho jayey``

The problem is that they don`t have any economic program for the betterment of the NWFP. Therefore, they use Islamic emotionalism to keep their public support. Now unfortunately, this strategy can only work in the Pakhtoon community, because puray muslamanon ka ghum Allah nay hamain hee uthanay ka hukum day rakka hay.

malik99 (various posts):

Since you are a backpacker, our expectations from you are higher than compared to an average emotional soul. I would just like to clarify few things from your last posts:

1. History tell us that when Queen Isabella sold all her jewellery and wealth after driving Moors out of Spain and set Columbus on sale, discovering new lands was not on her mind. She was looking for a sea route for doing trade with ``Cathay``. So remember that economy should be the priority. All the other benefits may come as attendants.

2. We also expect from you that when you are on foreign lands, you make new friends. After your gain confidence, you all begin to share information from your personal lives. This interaction should be used most prudently. I hope that you don`t talk to them about President Pervaiz Musharraf as whore and military as an institution of criminals, because foreign travelers are indifferent to this piece of information. Instead, you share positive things about your country. I know for sure that you also tell them that Pakistan is a safe place to travel where they will enjoy hospitality and that it should be the next place on their travel destination. But I am also sure that one should not travel into tribal areas of Pakistan, because it is not safe.``

You definitely don`t tell them that,``oh yes and after you have visited Kalaash Valley in the northern NWFP, please take a drive into our tribal agencies of North and South Waziristan. The people are Muslim Mujahids and will treat you with utmost respect.``

You know why you won`t tell them that because you know fully well that once on tribal land, foreigners will be a fair game for kidnappers offering immense economic opportunities for criminal element there. This is a fact. You tell them confidently what you know on the basis of pure facts.

Kindly also note that if Pakistan goes into political chaos due to emotionalism raised by fundamentalists, people like you will not be able to travel across the globe freely. As a traveler you should know the touristic lack of importance of Iran, Libya, North Korea, etc. Just remember how Pakistan will be treated. We are siding with the West and yet look at the negative propaganda all the time in Western and Indian media. If we go into the hands of Mullas, we will become a classic bad boy for punching at will.

Of course, I am assuming that you don`t support PML N or PPP, because both would have acted the same way post 9/11.

malik: Sorry if I sounded sarcastic. I was trying to be funny. By all means go out and see the world. No problem. Maybe you will discover Middle Kingdom. (just trying to be funny again).

I think it is fine to send robots like the two little guys we have on mars nowadays, for example. I think humanity should aim for mining operations on the asteroids someday. I think humanity should aim to extend its five senses to all the nine (10?) planets, to all the moons of these planets, to all the asteroids. I am all for investing in billion dollar article accelerators to find the graviton - humanities passport to beyond the 4 dimensions. I am all for investing in medical research to get beat that biggest enemy of mankind: bacteria and viruses, whose biomass exceeds that of humanity by many factors. And I am convinced we are the last few generations that are doomed to die - there is no Godly rule that says humanity cannot extend its life span from fourscore and ten to fourtrillion and ten. For the first time in history, mass poverty is no longer taken for granted. The world now has the resources to educate every single child, who will then in turn unleash his or her mental abilities to fuel this epic march of humanity.

I am convinced that the greatest frontiers of humanity lie before us. And they are vastly greater than anything we can even imagine today.

But guess who is going to do all this when we say ``humanity``? Not mullahs and terrorists, I can assure you. And certainly not retired Pakistani army colonels with acres of plots and miles long conspiracy theories. And certainly not expat Pakistanis who spit upon the land they left behind and spit upon the land they now live in and spit upon those who seek to join the rest of the world in contributing to humanity`s epic journey that no doubt will lead to all these frontiers I mention above. Not these bloody losers. They are lucky if they can find their way to the toilet every day.

And guess who is leading this epic journey that humanity is embarked on: it is the US. And other civilized nations are working hand in glove with the US in this epic journey. Not Saudi Arabia, not Fauji Foundation, not Mullah Fazloo who live in the past and who can only drag humanity back into its animal past if it could.

Ferozk # 102 - Just when i think you have been rehabilitated, you go back into your old ways.

Where the hell did I say that 70,000 soldiers were sent into Wana? This is what I wrote in #98: ``You mean 70,000 army personnel laced with the most lethal armory were sent into the tribal areas to have a cup of tea?``

I said TRIBAL AREAS and NOT Wana, you mullah bashing, west slaving, murder rationalizing, pajero driving, steak eating, bottled water drinking, i-pod listening, Armani wearing elite.

By the way, I really liked your i-log of today regarding Iraq. See Ferozk, you can be perfectly rational sometimes. This was a great i-log written with good insight and sound study of history. Thanks for sharing it with the rest. I would lift you up on my shoulders and walk down Madiason Ave, but I am suffering from allergies. You are a good man - sometimes.

tahmed32 # 105 - You wrote: ``our Shackelton as he braves the cold resulting from turning the airconditioning thermostat too low``

Your sarcastic post reminds me of this saying from a pseudo-elite like you: ``No new inventions are possible. Everything we need has already been invented``.

So Tahmed32, stay where you are, there is no new frontier to be discovered, no new inventions to be made. It is ``enlightened elites`` like you who argue that NASA should not be awarded billions of dollars to explore the frontiers of space and this money instead should be used to eradicate world hunger.

To know how the definition of ``terrorism`` changes, read Ferozk`s i-log of today. George Washington was branded terrorist, so was Ben Gurian, Arafat (Nobel Peace prize winner), Nelson Mandela (noble peace prize winner).

Come out of your slavery. Try being a free thinker. You might like it.

malik #98 Before you die of horror, read the full text of what ahmedzai has written:

``It was not that our military entered tribal area of Zelikhel tribe to attack. The tribals were given a warning to handover the wanted criminals by a certain deadline. Safe passage was promised. Yet the sub-tribe refused. When our para-military entered the area, they were least prepared for a show-down from the other side. Taken by surprise at being encircled, they called for military help. In the process, they lost lives and some men, who were later brutally murdered. Army went in to rescue them. ``

This is an accurate statement of what happened from all indications. I told you to use your eyes. But never fear. Stick around on chowk long enough, and it will be a pleasure to train you to start using those faculties you never knew you had - your eyes and your brains.

#99 by arjun_m on April 12, 2004 8:40am PT
//...So if you launch a military operation that ends up without an inch of land and you are forced to disown the bodies of your dead soldiers, you are made president...//

Mushy may stink to the high heaven - but the loyal hangers-on like tahmed, romair ... would continue to put him on the pdestal as the great white hope for land of the pure.

With people like these as their guiding ``intellectuals`` - pakis need no enemies. These guys have been scr!!!wing the abduls for years - in name of 6% economic growth and what not!

malik #101 Far be it for me to stand in the path of our modern day al-Baruni as he ventures to the four corners of the flat earth, or our Shackelton as he braves the cold resulting from turning the airconditioning thermostat too low. Nor indeed would I dream of preventing our Christopher Columbus from venturing to the edge of the known world, where (as the ancient cartographers duly noted ``there be demons``.

By all means explore the uncharted corners of Oxford Street and let us know if you come across any previously unknown tribes of cannibalistic celtics.

But please, please, dont ask me to start ignoring the mullahs. As I said, too many innocent people (pakistanis, indians, amercians and people from scores of nationalities at the WTC including 40 or so pakistanis) have been brutally attacked by these animals, for me to ``just ignore the mullahs, and rant instead about the FBI`` (which is essentially your advice to me).

re: malik99 # 98

A point of clarification.

The military operation in Wana involved a reinforced brigade of Pakistan Army, which is about 4,500 men. There was another brigade of normal strenght of nearly 3,000 men, which was placed in the reserve and was not engaged. All together, at any given time the elements of the Pakistani Army deployed in South Waziristan amounted to less than a full division of infantry, which is about 14,000-15,000 men.

The 70,000 soldiers of the Pakistan Army, whom you mentioned are deployed along the entire lenght of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, which is nearly 2,500 kilometers long. If you calculate the ratio of troop deployment per the area of land covered, by the number of the troops deployed and the area on which they are deployed, it comes to 28. In other words, there are 28 soldiers of the Pakistan Army guarding each kilometer of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border from the south of Baluchistan to the north in the North-West Frontier Province. This is in military terms is not adequate, because it means that one solider is guarding nearly 35.7 meters of ground and this means that the deployment will suffer from gaps, which will be unguarded given the broken and rugged terrain. In the south, where the terrain is desert and open, this is fine but in South Waziristan, where the terrain is broken and mountainous this make for less than ideal deployment conditions.

Also, the 70,000 soldiers are not concentrated within the area of South Waziristan itself. In case you are wondering, 70,000 men make up approximately five full strenght infantry divisions, according to Pakistan Army`s TOO (Table Of Organization) and this number of divisions, will also consitute an entire army corps which is usually made up of four or more divisions. At no point was an entire army corps committed to the Wana operation.

Malik, emotionalism appeals to the baser instincts of an audience and emotionalism without any factual support makes for hollow arguments. You can convince a person by emotionalism, but you cannot sustain emotionalism because emotionalism withers when it is introdouced to reality.

Ciao

tahmed32 #95 - You wrote ``How much of your income have you contributed to the poor? As I recall, you had the time and money to travel from the US to europe, and then go backpacking around europe``

I cannot believe that you would present such a dumb argument. This one argument truly shows the narrowness of your mind. Tahmed32 contrary to your argument - I think more and more Muslims should be travelling and seeing the world. We need to know the world and be known, instead of hiding in our holes. If Columbus had heeded your advice, he would have used his `time and money` in helping the poor and needy in Spain instead of looking for new lands and as a result you would still be living in Pakistan. It is because of our saving of `time and money` that it were the europeans who conquered K-2 and not us who live next to it. Thank God you were not there to advice al-bairuni when he decided to go ``backpacknig`` in India. It was Ernest Shackelton who put together a mission to South Pole at a time when Britain needed all the money and resources for Worl War 1. To this day his story of leadership in the face of adversity is taught in world`s business schools.

You see Tahmed32 - intellectual elite like you accuse mullahs day and night for being anti-progress, yet YOU are the ones who represent backwardness. I truly think it is time for you to do some self-reflection. You will NEVER be an `enlightened` person simply by cursing mullahs.

ahmadzai #93 - You wrote ``It was not that our military entered tribal area of Zelikhel tribe to attack``

Excuse me!!??? That is an incredible statement. You mean 70,000 army personnel laced with the most lethal armory were sent into the tribal areas to have a cup of tea? Not to mention that this entire operation was carried out to coincide with Powell`s trip to Pakistan.

The horror. The horror.

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ahmedzai #93 It is always refreshing to read your posts because you base your opinions on facts and not on what you hear other people saying. I hope malik will learn something from your example.