How real is Musharraf’s real democracy?

Democracy is the biggest practical joke ever deviced. Don`t get me wrong. I hate dictators like mr. musharaf who actually are the agents of an evil heirarchy.

Democracy is being yelled everywhere in media, in books etc for so long, that we practically believe that it is a system that is in our favor and it is our salvation:)

Well, look at it. America the only super power (so-called) is not a democracy at all. Its a republic. Anyway, democracy is a 2 party system. Both of them are controlled by the hidden King-pins or King-makers. They choose corrupt members of the society and bring them on a show off. They invest literally billions of Dollars to make an image of so-called candidates. It doesn`t matter if anyone ever knew them before. Media will make sure to make a Jesus out of anyone. They are all rich, spending millions of their own to double or tripple the wealth, at the same time, serving the King makers.

Democracy is the most corrupt system ever deviced for mass consumption.

Bush, daddy bush, grand daddy bush all belonged to an elite family. All members of Yale`s ``Skulls & Bones`` satanic society. Kerry was their cousin. Also a ``Bonesman``. Both were selected for a stage show called elections. Where the heck is your choice?

You expect democracy from Mr. Musharraf who himself came from back-door?
:) You expect any good from Mr. Short-Cut Aziz who was selected to be your PM?
Did you selected him?
Or did someone who`s actually pulling the strings did so?
If it is some hidden hand, democracy is an out right lie.

In India, you`ve 2 party system. In UK you have 2 party system. In USA you have 2 party system. Everywhere its the same. The selected individuals serve their masters who selected them in the first place. They never came by yr selection so they never work for you. You only have an illusion of it.


QUOTE FROM PROTOCOLS OF ZION

---

``Political freedom is an idea but not a fact. This idea one must know how to apply whenever it appears necessary with this bait of an idea to attract the masses of the people to one`s party for the purpose of crushing another who is in authority. This task is rendered easier of the opponent has himself been infected with the idea of freedom, SO-CALLED LIBERALISM, and, for the sake of an idea, is willing to yield some of his power. It is precisely here that the triumph of our theory appears; the slackened reins of government are immediately, by the law of life, caught up and gathered together by a new hand, because the blind might of the nation cannot for one single day exist without guidance, and the new authority merely fits into the place of the old already weakened by liberalism.``


``IN ORDER TO PUT PUBLIC OPINION INTO OUR HANDS WE MUST BRING IT INTO A STATE OF BEWILDERMENT BY GIVING EXPRESSION FROM ALL SIDES TO SO MANY CONTRADICTORY OPINIONS AND FOR SUCH LENGTH OF TIME AS WILL SUFFICE TO MAKE THE ``GOYIM`` LOSE THEIR HEADS IN THE LABYRINTH AND COME TO SEE THAT THE BEST THING IS TO HAVE NO OPINION OF ANY KIND IN MATTERS POLITICAL, which it is not given to the public to understand, because they are understood only by him who guides the public. This is the first secret.``


``Methods of organization like these, imperceptible to the public eye but absolutely sure, are the best calculated to succeed in bringing the attention and the confidence of the public to the side of our government. Thanks to such methods we shall be in a position as from time to time may be required, to excite or to tranquilize the public mind on political questions, to persuade or to confuse, printing now truth, now lies, facts or their contradictions, according as they may be well or ill received, always very cautiously feeling our ground before stepping upon it .... WE SHALL HAVE A SURE TRIUMPH OVER OUR OPPONENTS SINCE THEY WILL NOT HAVE AT THEIR DISPOSITION ORGANS OF THE PRESS IN WHICH THEY CAN GIVE FULL AND FINAL EXPRESSION TO THEIR VIEWS owing to the aforesaid methods of dealing with the press. We shall not even need to refute them except very superficially.``


The constitution scales of these days will shortly break down, for we have established them with a certain lack of accurate balance in order that they may oscillate incessantly until they wear through the pivot on which they turn. The GOYIM are under the impression that they have welded them sufficiently strong and they have all along kept on expecting that the scales would come into equilibrium. But the pivots - the kings on their thrones - are hemmed in by their representatives, who play the fool, distraught with their own uncontrolled and irresponsible power. This power they owe to the terror which has been breathed into the palaces. As they have no means of getting at their people, into their very midst, the kings on their thrones are no longer able to come to terms with them and so strengthen themselves against seekers after power. We have made a gulf between the far-seeing Sovereign Power and the blind force of the people so that both have lost all meaning, for like the blind man and his stick, both are powerless apart.

mohar #174 Actually, you are wrong. A human is an animal.

I must admit though that just as a dog`s brain is not equipped to appreciate the works of Shakespeare, so my brain is quite incapable of appreciating the wit and wisdom of Mohar. And that explains why I find your posts to be meaningless.

#173 by tahmed32

Beeeeep .... Wrong again .... I don`t consider you(or your fellow-travellers) an ``animal`` in true sense of the word. The word was used to mean a ``creature`` ..... a sarcasm-tinged way of describing Paki Elite crowd. The intent was to point out the strange ways the your mind works.

So take it easy - mian. You are NOT an ``animal`` per se. You are human - only that you got less brain material than usual. And use even less of it. :))))))

mohar #172 When I used the word ``animal``, I realized that you would pick on that in the same sh!itty way your kind pick on everything else. I nevertheless left the word in to see for myself that the fish would bite. And sure enough, in due course, you did. Morons like you are so bloody predictable!! Chowk wouldnt be any fun without your kind. Ha! Ha!

#171 by tahmed32
//...``Paki Elites``, rest assured that this particular animal exists in your mind only..//

This confirms the following common attributes of this ``animal``:

Attribute 1: Self-Denial - This animal, when pushed to a corner, denies it ever exists and tries to pull off a vanishing act. Tries hard to blend in to the rest of ``140 million or so individual people``.

Attribute 2: Dilute and Deflect - ``we are just like everybody else. Some of us use our brains and some others don`t. So don`t blame us - even if we created the largest terrorist breeding machine ever known - which is creating havoc all over the world. It is not our fault.``

mohar #168 Study my posts diligently, in that case. As for ``Paki Elites``, rest assured that this particular animal exists in your mind only. Pakis are 140 million or so individual people, not a bunch of stereotypes. Some use their brains, some dont. Like individuals everywhere else. Once you understand that, you will be on your way to becoming a normal human being, and not a BMIC (Brainwashed Man from India on Chowk).

Quoting the (in)famous Baha Men : ``Who let the dogs out ? Who Who Who?``

re: arjun_m # 160

I have no disagreements, with what you have said in your last post.

I agree that Pakistan was the historically responsible for changing the status quo. History and international law bears out that agrument. Indian reaction during the Kargil crisis in 1999 showed, from what I remember, that India considered it as a violation of its international border and its mantra of ``cross-border terrorism`` bespeaks of an acceptance of the LoC as a border. Your agrument that Indians care more about Indian Kashmir than Pakistani Kashmir also goes to prove that India considers LoC as an international border.

Incidently, the recent India-Pakistan talks on a bus service between the two Kashmirs is held up on this very issue. Pakistan wants the travel under UN documents and India wants the travel under Indian and Pakistani passports. Pakistan favors the UN documentation process because that maintains the reasoning that LoC is not an international border and if it agrees to the Indian logic, then it will have to accept the fait accompli of the LoC as an international border.

I think that AVB was right to dismiss Musharraf`s statement, because it was designed for the domestic lobby in Pakistan. In this sense, what Pakistan`s foreign minister is saying is at variance with Musharraf. However, there has been a marked departure from Pakistan`s traditional position. The overall reaction of the Musharraf statement on questioning the usefulness of the UN resolutions has been to destroy Kashmir and UN resolutions as a taboo subject and now, there is debate in Pakistan to settle Kashmir outside of UN resolutions.

As to the issue of infilteration and ending it, it will happen once India finishes constructing its fence along the LoC. The fence will solve a lot of migraines on both sides of the LoC. :)

The four proposals/suggestions you gave are being all being considered. In 50 years, I hope this region will be criss-crossed by oil pipelines and power grids harnessing the full potential of the region. Economics have to be given the utmost importance as CBMs, because once the economy replaces politics, it will be much easy to solve the problem. In 50 years, there might be no need to re-draw the LoC as a border, because it will cease to matter.

Ciao

tahmed

Yep - I am ``loyal`` to you alright - because you are my favorite b!!atch. Ha Ha !
[ sorry man - just couldn`t resist ]

But seriously - you are a fascinating person. You give us a rare glimpse into minds of Paki Elites, a species unique unto themselves. You help me understand and theorize some of the baffling aspects of paki mentality. It has been a real eye-opener, so to say, after interacting with you.

So Thanks you.

mohar: My compliments to you on being such a loyal reader of my posts. Such dedication is all the more remarkable after your failure to engage me in your moronic Indo-Pakistan arguments on chowk.

Ha! Ha!

Ref: #162

Arjun dude - you seem to have lighted a mighty fire under tahmed`s tail - the old guy is sh!!ting all over the place.

#164
``... it is somewhat surprising how prevalent ideologues and closed minds seem to be in the subcontinent...``

``Main roun ya hasun, yaaron karun main kya karoon``
(Should I laugh or should I cry,
Friends, I dont know what to do)

-Shah Rukh Khan, circa 1994

#158 by Sameem

``Alenxaderian swing of the blade``: Well ... if words were horses, even pakis would ride :)
Actually - why don`t you just swing a razor blade and shave a beard or two - pakistan has just too many people with full beards and no brains.

That could be more within your limited capabilities. ``Alenxaderian swing of the blade`` is just big words from folks who just got whacked ragtag bunch of tribals ... lost a bunch of soldiers .... and after the usual bravado about capturing ``high-value`` targets, have nothing to show in return. But then that fits perfectly with historical pattern of achievements, or lack thereof, on part of pakistanis.

arjun #153 True to your filthy upbringing where lying and cheating is acceptable and having been exposed for being what you are by your own posts, you respond in frustration by referring to me as queer. This is not the first time you have tried to malign a poster by implying that he is a homosexual. This preoccupation with homosexuality on your part speaks for itself with your own filthy mindset and your bent of mind.

So, in addition to being a scumbag who has spent the past couple of years on chowk mocking Pakistanis who were deported from the US, you have now proven yourself a lier as well. If you wish to disprove this, I challenge you to back your attempts to malign me by use of the word queer by cutting and posting anything I have written on chowk to back this filth that you write on chowk.

#160 by arjun_m
//...1. Stop all infiltration. ///

Fat chance of this happening. Thousands of madarasssas-graduates are getting into ``job market`` per year - where would they go? Then there are all the houries and gillmans to consider - what would they do?

Dude - you are talking about a lot of ``unemployment`` here and here-after.

ahmedzai #152 Yes, it is unfortunate that intelligent debate does not seem to last too long on chowk, and it is somewhat surprising how prevalent ideologues and closed minds seem to be in the subcontinent.

On tourism: There is indeed a lot of tourist potential in the northern areas of Pakistan, as well as in other parts. This is both in terms of natural beauty as well as historical significance. There is a lot of undeveloped potential - there are battlefield parks that remain to be developed all over Pakistan, reflecting ancient battles to the 19th century battles of the British raj; and ancient buildings that remain to be dug up, as in Harappa; and recreation sites (e.g. vacation cabins) to be developed around lakes and across mountains. All this potential lies largely undeveloped. No doubt all this will happen in due course, and thus create job and profit making opportunities for the local population. And no doubt we dont need ideologues of any kind (the mullah kind, or the anti-west kind) for the tourism industry to develop in Pakistan. Only peaceful conditions and incentives given for investments in tourism.

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re: arjun_m # 154

Arjun, nothing in this world is impossible. Everything is possible, including the re-orientation of the Pakistani mind. There is a papable sense of fear in Pakistan and what you are seeing, is the backlash of the religious groups in Pakistan who are convinced that their days are numbered. As to the Kashmir being the holy grail of Pakistan, it seems that Kashmir is no longer the lode star of Pakistani politics. There has been a significant change in Pakistan`s Kashmir policy, when Musharraf suggested that Pakistan might move beyond the United Nation`s resolutions.

There is a growing sense of awareness in Pakistan that the only feasible option is to internationalize the line of control and make that as the de jure border between India and Pakistan. From what I read in Indian newspapers and from what I hear in Indian TV, ABV is suggesting that India needs to discuss the Kashmir issue and settle it. I think there is an acute realization amongst and within the Indian business circles that India needs to settle its problems regionally before it can truly assume its potential in Asia. ABV lately has been saying this, because there seems to be an understanding in India that Kashmir problem will not be solved in a military sense.

The reality is, and I am quite confident I will be castigated by the Indians and Pakistanis for suggesting this, but Kashmiri status quo was frozen by the Shimla Declaration of 1972. From what is emerging about the Shimla Declaration, nearly 30 years later, suggests that the status quo was to be finalized as the international border. The strongest hint towards this hypothesis comes from the fact that before Shimla, the present LoC was known as the Line of Actual Control (LoAC) and it was under the supervision of the United Nations and had been since 1948. Shimla removed the role of the UN from monitering the LoAC by making it into LoC; to be bi-laterally supervised by Pakistan and India. Afterwards due to political constraints, the issue could not be presented to the peoples of India and Pakistan.

I have said before Kashmir is not problem between India and Pakistan as much as it is a problem in the domestic politics of both the nations and the domestic opinion in both nations is not willing to accept the sub voce (unsaid) reality that India and Pakistan had, in Shimla, agreed to make the LoC and treat it as an international border. Pakistan`s historic stance on Kashmir was the holding of the United Nations` plebsicite and India claimed that under its contitution (I think it is article 370), Kashmir is a part of India.

Here is the problem: to make the LoC into an international border would require Pakistan to give up its demands for a United Nations` vote and for India to give up its demand that Kashmir is a part of India. Both sides have to step down from their historic claims in order to make the LoC into an international frontier and in domestic political terms this is hard to do. Musharraf has mooted the Pakistani claim and now, the question is will India be willing not to consider Kashmir as a part of it`s territory? For that to happen, India will have repeal the said article in constitution and it will not be easy.

My observations of India`s politics is limited to what I read and hear on TV, so I am not qualified to make political analysis on the issue, whether this is a possibility or not. Still, my impression is that ABV is leaning towards this possibility and if BJP wins a solid majority in the parliament, then we might see some interesting developments. Again, this is pure conjecture on my part. My impressions are reinforced by what ABV has been saying to the statements by Musharraf on Kashmir, that Musharraf was reacting to ``domestic pressures``. The critical assumption lies in the fact of not what the Indian leadership is saying, but what it is not saying.

Once the LoC is made into an international border, then all the problems in Pakistan vis-a-vis Kashmir, which you have pointed out, will be end. Arjun, I can assure that on the offical level, there is an understanding on Kashmir, but both governments have not been to able to explain that reasoning to their domestic political lobbies.

Personally, the best way to remove the bogey of Kashmir from Pakistani politics is to make LoC into an international border and I think that the international opinion favors this as a solution to the Kashmir problem also.

Ciao

P.S.: Congrats on India winning the test series in Pakistan! :)

Excuse me, but glooming ignorance always calls for an Alenxaderian swing of the blade.

The answer to a problem, as you suggest it, should be to get scared of it ? I think not Sir, we recognize the issue, very much so, but the concept of realizaing it does not entail a fear of it. The lack of concinnity in your responses is starting to amuse me. I`m sorry, is that another thing we muslims are guilty of ? Won`t embaress you too much.

Hahahahaha ! Sir, ``seldom`` in the phrase did not literally mean ``seldom`` but corresponded more closely with ``never``. Although, if you do ever get hit with frost-bite in the head, don`t chop it off. That`s not the answer then.

It is this judgmental nature of people that mars societal structures on the whole today.

#156 by Sameem
//..I assure you though, our reflections don`t scare us...//

It should. It is sad that you don`t even recognize a serious problem when it is staring right at your face. In fact that`s a very common shortcoming in most islamic societies and individuals - they don`t see the problem even if it hits them right on their head.

Frost-bite seldom hits your head - but in your case, that`s exactly what has happened. An unsual frost-bite to your head has left you blind to the reality.

Enuff said.

Mohar11,

You said exactly what I wanted you to say. It`s all dependant on relative point of views. I, for one, look at it from a utilitarian point of view, a concept which is alien to you. Sadly enough, due to poverty of language and ineffebility of ideas I haven`t been able to carry it across too well either.

I assure you though, our reflections don`t scare us. I`m sorry, but we as a nation can not empathize with you on that. Sympathy thouhgh, I can offer.

With all due respect, frost-bite seldom hits your head first. You misconstrued the whole analogy. It`s easy to jettison points of importance as retrograde.I rest my case.

INSIDE TRACK ON WORLD NEWS
by international syndicated columnist & broadcaster Eric Margolis


THE MOTHER OF ALL BLUNDERS
Copyright: Eric S. Margolis, 2004
April 12, 2004

NEW YORK — How the many intelligent people in the Bush Administration can continue to make so many enormous blunders astounds and dismays. Two examples:

Australia is facing a tight electoral race between conservative John Howard, who eagerly sent troops to Iraq, and Labor Party challenger, Mark Latham, who, like Spain`s new prime minister, vows to bring his nation`s troops home from Iraq. A majority of Australians oppose the Iraq War.

US ambassador Tom Schieffer, a Texas pal of George Bush, warned Australians of `serious consequences` if they elect Latham. Now, Australians love America, but any worldly person knows, do not threaten Aussies. They will come out swinging. Schieffer should be fired.

Far worse, however, is the ham-handed US Iraq Proconsul, Paul Bremer. A neo-conservative ideologue, Bremer was responsible for two of the Bush Administration`s most disastrous mistakes in Iraq: disbanding Iraq`s Army, and firing tens of thousands of government bureaucrats because they were Ba`ath party members.

Any junior imperialist knows the first thing you do when you conquer someone`s country is to buy the loyalty of its existing armed forces, government and police. Otherwise you will have armies of angry, unemployed potential rebels roaming the streets — Iraq being Exhibit A.

Bremer`s third horrible blunder came this week. The US Proconsul, who is supposedly bringing the light of democracy to Iraq, shut down a tiny, 10,000 circulation Shia newspaper and arrested its editor for `spreading anti-American views` and calling Bremer rude names. The paper`s publisher was firebrand Shia mullah Muqtada el-Sadr, who has been calling on Iraqis to resist US occupation.

Bremer turned Sadr, a little-respected junior cleric with a limited following, into an overnight hero to restive Shias, and a new American villain.

Bremer`s latest imbecility caused Iraq`s Shia majority, which was simmering with anti-American passions, to explode into violence. Washington and US forces were caught totally by surprise, though warnings were aplenty. This writer, for example, said on CNN`s Paula Zahn show — exactly three days before the explosion of Shia rage — `the Shia and the US are on a collision course…their younger mullahs are calling for armed resistance…what we`ve seen so far(Sunni resistance) is only a foretaste of the violence to come.`

For months, Iraq`s Shia have heeded calls for patience from their spiritual leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. He tried to get Washington to agree to genuine democratic elections in January, 2005. But it`s painfully clear the US will not allow Iraq`s Shia majority(60%) to gain real political power, and intends to keep troops based there indefinitely.

The Bush Administration`s definition of `democracy` in Iraq means a puppet regime that goes through the motions of democracy, `invites` US troops to stay on, permits US business to exploit Iraq`s oil riches, and cooperates with Israel.

An interesting side note: Reza Pahlavi, pretender to Iran`s throne, opined to me recently in Washington that Iraq`s Ayatollah Sistani actually outranks all of Iran`s clergy, including leader, Grand Ayatollah Khamenei, and Iraq`s holy city of Najaf outranks Iran`s theological center, Qum.

Revelations of Washington`s plans to colonize Iraq, and Israel`s assassination of the Palestinian leader, Sheik Yassin, intensified pent-up Shia fury. Americans can thank Bremer and his bosses in the White House for opening this two-front war in Iraq and driving the Shia and Sunnis together.

The savage punishment of the rebellious city of Falluja — over 300 Iraqis killed — after the brutal killing of four US mercenaries there sharply recalls Israel`s ravaging of the rebellious West Bank town of Jenin.

As this column predicted a year ago, `liberated` Iraq has become a copy of the strife-torn Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza — writ large. Israeli military and intelligence experts are now advising US operations in Iraq. All who oppose US occupation are branded `terrorists.`

Iraq is not going to be `liberated` or taught democracy by means of US heavy tanks and helicopter gunships. Quite the contrary, what we have seen this week is the sowing by heavy-handed US occupation forces of a whole new crop of terrorist dragon`s teeth in the bloodstained soil of Iraq.

The only bright note for the Bush White House: if it can`t kill Osama bin Laden in time for November elections, then maybe pesky Mullah Muqtada will do.

---

To read previous columns by Mr. Margolis: Click here
WWW: http://bigeye.com/foreignc.htm
Email: margolis@foreigncorrespondent.com
FAX: (416) 960-1769
Smail:
Eric Margolis
c/o Editorial Department
The Toronto Sun
333 King St. East
Toronto Ontario Canada
M5A 3X5

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Tauheed:

Unfortunately, Zain Malik Saheb disappeared. I would have expected him give me some feedback on the economic situation and the dependence of the NWFP on tourism vis-a-vis raising unnecessary hue and cry on non-issues (ref. an earlier post from me on the matter here).

ahmedzai #148 Glad you appreciated the poetry. Your quotes remind me of another one which I think applies to the arjuns on chowk: ``You dont just have an inferiority complex. You are inferior``. While this man talks big on chowk about ``sub-saharan africans`` as if he is Lord Kipling himself, in real life he would probably slink around the streets of Nairobi or Dar-es-Salaam, scared shi!t of the ``sub-saharan africans``, as I have seen many of his kind do there.

#149 by Sameem

Blunt or Boorish- it`s all relative - depends on the POV.

I didn`t compare it to holocaust. I merely pointed out how it measures in the same yard-stick you guys have been using to measure others. It`s not a pretty picture. Of course it will appear boorish to you. Nobody likes to be shown a mirror.

A frost-bite happenned to you - it happens to others too. You are not the only one climbing mountains. We are all climbing our own different cold hard mountains here. You need an amputation - so do the others .... afflicted with the same conditions. What is good for the goose is also good for the gander.

//...Imagination after all is far from dastardly...//
Exactly - you imagine that others` frost-bite is not really a frost-bite. Well - you should know better now.

mohar11,It`s one thing to be blunt, and completely another to be boorish.

When frostbit, a mountaineer has no option but to amputate the area effected. It is not entirely a fun experience, but remedial measures call for it.

So go ahead and compare it to the holocaust, if you may. Imagination after all is far from dastardly.

concerned 1 at # 140:

Actually we wanted to give Nishan-e-Pakistan to the cowdom that after milk, meat, hide and gobar, it successfully marketed and found a good consumer of another of its products. However, since no representative of cows could not make it to Pakistan, we gave the medal to the cowdom`s chief beneficiary.

;-)

Tauheed at # 146:

LOL.

As for rsaxena, Groucho Marx (1895-1977) says:

``He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot, but don`t let that fool you -- he really is an idiot.``

Our friend arjun can be as prideful as a dog of the success stories of India, but hangs out with ``sub-sahara Pakistanis``. He does not have courage to go and exchange views on Western boards. As for the intelligence level depicted by him through his posts, Frank Zappa, the legendary rock guitarist, says:

``There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.``

:-)

Rsaxena, repeat after me:

When arjun the chutiya-haha
howls ``bawa-haha``
When one-string jay blurts
``pakis are mere low caste converts``
The kick no butt
They are just stuck in a rut

As for Ahmedzai
Whyeee
Meray Bhaiee
He could kick resaxenas butt
All the way
From Delhi to Calicut

(Hope you appreciate my poetry).

re: arjun_m # 131

Arjun, I will be the first one to admit that it will very difficult

I think, quite honestly, that if we get into the debate over the scales of difficulty, then we have lost. The situation has to be changed, because there is no other alternative left and Pakistan has to make the bitter changes needed. I am under no false pretenses, because the entire orientation of the country has to be re-directed and that means, an entire generational perspective has to be wrenched and corrected. Two entire generations of Pakistanis have been wasted in this form of indoctorination and that means, its ripple effects have soaked into the Pakistani society as the norms of behavior and not as the exception.

The process has to start with the newer generations and they have to be taught accordingly. This is why, there are people in Pakistan who are making a hue and a cry over the issue of curriculum in Pakistani text books. I am personally disappointment in the manner in which the government has capitulated, but then again this government like any other government has put political existence over education and education in Pakistan has alway been geared towards a legitimacy of politics and not towards eludication of the mind.

A few years ago, I might have disagreed with you and advocated a measured approach, but now the only option, which seems less painful is a sudden and drastic change to arrest the situation, before it becomes too intrenched. In other words, the problems you have identified are deeply intrenched and need to be rooted out with exterme prejudice and not pruned gently. As I mentioned, it will be very difficult to change, but they have to be changed and the best way is to simply end them regardless of the pain they cause to the body politic of Pakistan. In all of this, what really cautions me and makes me wary is the impact of a civil strive on the economy, but I have to consider the long term implications to the economy if the situation is allowed to fester.

The change of ``heart`` lies not as much as in the forces of darkness, but in their patrons and once the patrons are forced to change their ways, then the forces of darkness can be left to wither on the vine. The disease is in the roots and not in the branches.

Ciao

re: Malik99 # 133

I am very glad that you were able to find the discrepencies in my post.

The contradictions prove that when emotionalism is used, it makes for good rhetoric but does not stand up to a hard accouting of facts with the reality. In that post, I used the idiom of idealism to appeal to emotion and not to reason, but idealism generally appeals on the emotional aspects of a targetted audience. The metaphors of Lexington to Gettyburg were designed to mislead and to equate the two as the same, while the reality as Fuzair noted was different. The idea of an effective rhetoric is to make the audience agree not with the message, but to make them think that the message makes sense. It is much easier to emotionalize than reason, because emotionalism is all about a ``feel good factor`` while reason seeks to appeal to a person`s common sense and common sense is more difficult to convince.

As to the rhetorical flourishes on the future of Pakistan, I am ignoring the reality and appealing to what the audience wants to hear. In reality, what I have suggested is mired with problems, but I have chosen to put that aside for the moment as I sought to identify with ``perception`` of Pakistan, which most Pakistanis like to think about and cherish. In short, I have combined facts with fiction and hope with wishes, and there is a distinct dicotomy in that statement, and have created a picture of Pakistan, which is idealistic. Again, the aim is appeal to the emotionalism of the audience and to make them side with my point of view, without realizing why they are finding an affinity of ideas in my rhetoric and make them ``think`` that what I am saying is what is the common sense.

My advice to you is, if decide to follow it, to use emotionalism to appeal to the higher aspirations of your audience and not to use emotionalism to win agruments. Use emotionalism to make your points of argument, but also tone your emotional rhetoric with actual facts to present a balance of ``objectivity``. An audience and a majority of the audience likes to think of itself as the ``silent and moderate majority``, and a rhetorical speech which appeals to this moderate silent majority, is more effective than one, whose only focus is on the ``core group``. The core group will always agree with you, but you need to ``layer`` your core group with the mainstream opinions in order to be effective in conveying your message as a representative of the majority, but the silent, opinion.

For example, look at the brilliance of the GoP public relations machine, which made the GoP values identifiable with the Muslim values and gained the Muslim votes in the 2000 elections. The best public relations manual was written by Joseph Goebbels and he perfected the technique, when he combined lies with half-truths to create a fictional reality and his methodology was so strong that the Germans still believed in the ``Thousand Year Reich`` as the Red Army was raising the Hammer and Sickle over the bombed and burnt out Reichstag in Berlin.

I convinced you that despite our disagreements, I was thinking for the good of Pakistan. Are you still convinced that I am thinking about the good of Pakistan? :)

Some times, a rapier is more effective than a broadsword and sometimes, a feint is better than a lunge. :)

Ciao

ouch...HP and ahmedzai are getting their asses kicked here....it is almost not even fair...hahah

Re: Malik #133

Much as it pains me to agree with Malik, in this case he is mostly right. The Civil War was about the right of a state to secede from the Union if it felt that the policies followed by the Federal Government were against its ``national`` (``state``?) interest. Slavery was only the most visible/emotional issue involved and it certainly wasn`t the key issue until much later. Among the more important ones were that the South favored free trade (i.e. let it get cheap imports from the UK and Europe) while the North (which had the industries) favored very high tariffs and forcing the South to accept a lower price for its cotton in real terms. The issue of whether or not a state could be admitted into the Union as ``free`` or ``slave`` has as much to do with the mode of production (plantation labor or paid factory work) as it has to do with issues of intrinsic morality.

However, this is not an issue that is going to make much sense to hoi polloi who actually have to do the fighting and dying. For them, there were only two reasons for the war: preserve the Union and free slaves. The latter was not important until much later and then only in a negative way in that, once the casualty rolls started climbing, there was a severe backlash against ``dying to free a nigger.`` Remember the huge anti-draft/anti-negro riots in the Northern cities in 1862-63? The imposition of martial law? Suspension of habeaus corpus? BTW, the South never resorted to martial law or suspension of basic rights the way Lincoln had to. The War was deeply unpopular in the North.

It is only after the huge Union victory at Gettysburg that Lincoln had the nerve to issue the Emancipation Proclamation, which only freed Southern slaves. It is not till well after the Civil War that all slavery is banned.

It is nothing but mythmaking and self-enobling propaganda that the Civil War was about slavery. It was about States` Rights.

for those of you who were worried about the general retiring :

``Pakistan`s President Pervez Musharraf has said he has still not decided whether to step down as chief of the army by the end of the year.
His comments on BBC World`s HARDTalk programme were in contrast to his public commitment to quit the post and become solely civilian head of state.

His remarks have sent shock waves through the nation`s political circles. ``

............ who else is shocked ?!!

hp:

the urine drinking pm was given some nishan-e-pakistan or something...is that what qualified him?

#138 by arjun_m

”That`s like saying Pakiland will become prosperous if pigs fly and so Indians are worried about pigs flying....”

Good one Arjun…Would you save the urine for your this PM like you used to save for the one who liked to drink it every morning? Why Indian PMs have this gross habit of drinking piss every morning…religiously.

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Tauheed at 129:

I actually recall a good research paper along the same lines. The paper propounded that their were two Islamic political schools of thought in the sub-continent. One (``regressives``)has amongst its following such stalwarts as Aurangzeb Alamgir, Maudoodi and Zia-ul-Haq. The other (``progressives``) has Sir Sayad Ahmed Khan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Pervaiz Musharraf.

Feroz Saheb, in his two posts, has very beautifully highlighted that its about time that the ``regressives`` be shown their righful place by the ``progressives``.

Very interestingly indeed, it will be our Fundoo Indoos who will be going green with jealousy if ``Progressives`` get finally entrenched in Pakistan for that will ensure economic prosperity for the country. On the contrary, if ``Regressives`` ramain strong, Pakistan will fare poorly economically, will be more and more isolated and will be treated as a rogue state in the comity of nations. Our Indian friends seem frustrated on Pakistan not taking the latter course.

Romair,
You make an interesting argument regarding economics versus political freedoms. It also is a fallacious argument. Your being able to vote or not vote as such does not make a big difference in the larger scheme of things altho being able to vote does give you a sense of participation in the running of a society. However, you (& hamidm & myself) are living in societies where certain political freedoms are taken for granted, thanks to a democratic system, even if you or I did not put the system in place.
When you say that you have exchanged economic wellbeing for political freedoms, you haven`t really. You have both. Hamidm is correct to say that it`s possible to have both & that the pakistanis ought to have a shot at that.

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Ferozk # 130 & 127 - Your wrote ``Pakistan has to join the twenty-first century and if it means wiping out those, who wish to drag us back to the ages of darkness``

If religion is a matter of interpretation, so is `progress`. I too advocate progress, but you term my progress as `mullah-ism`. Furthermore, why should anyone believe in YOUR definition of `progress`? What you consider to be progress may very well be regression for many. When you say that only force, or “wiping out” the opposition, can teach Pakistan how to modernize, then how are you being different from mullahs, or worse, third rated 1970s style dictators who promised progress the same way too? Where the hell is your `western` idea of `dialogue`?

Since you appear to be an avid reader of western history, tell us how did European leadership convinced warring nations merely a few years after the WW2 and formed a European community with single currency and quite likely single defense? Did they use dunda? Danish people narrowly rejected adopting euro. Did anyone advocate crushing the heads of those who rejected this ``progress`` towards a United States of Europe? And when you advocate bludgeoning those who oppose YOUR definition of ``progress``, won`t they get the urge to bludgeon you back and make you ‘learn’ THEIR definition of progress? If your methods of bringing `progress` are so barbaric and rooted in 3rd century BC, how can we expect your goals to be any better?

And by the way, a mullah is not necessarily a bearded man who is blindly advocating sharia. Mullah could very well be a clean shaven, armani wearing, western educated man who is blindly advocating western ideology without understanding the context of progress. These are the two faces of the same coin.

Having said this, let me acknowledge the fact that while I may not agree with many of your ideas, i am left with little suspicion about your sincerity and your passion to make Pakistan a better place.

ferozk #127 - Your wrote: “People, who believed in this idealism, bled upon the bridges in Lexington and Yorktown; they bled on the fields of Gettysburgs of a war, which saw more Americans kill Americans than Americans were killed in entire Vietnam War and they fought for this idealism”

This is the most naïve analysis of civil war I have ever heard. Lets leave this debate for another time, but let me leave you with a few thoughts. At its onset, the civil war was anything but the war of “idealism”. It was about ‘state rights’. Yes, the rich north did shroud the war in the morality of “freeing slaves”, just like today the war in Iraq is being fought in the name of promoting ‘democracy’. Abolishing slavery was certainly NOT the driving force behind this war. It was a war by southern states to keep the federal government from interfering in the states affairs, just the way founding fathers had intended it to be.

#124 by Sameem on April 13, 2004 6:47am PT
//... excuse me for my naivete ...//

You are naive - that`s for sure. And stupid too. Otherwise you wouldn`t make statements like this - ``.... the blood of the people is at the hands of the tribal elders who refused to let the army administer the area is it is supposed to``.

Paki Army fired missiles at a bus filled with women and children and killed them. The blood is in your hands. It is a serious human rights violation. How the heck are the tribals responsible for your such blatantly un-islamic behaviour?

It is exactly same as what you guys did in Bangladesh - killed millions of bengalis for no reason. Then also you had the same excuse - that you were just ``administering`` the area. That you are protecting bengalis from ``miscreants`` of Mukti Bahini.

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re: Malik99 # 106 (an addendum to my post # 127)

One more thing, lest you are still confused. Pakistan has to join the twenty-first century and if it means wiping out those, who wish to drag us back to the ages of darkness, we have to deal with them in the only manner in which they understand; force. Pakistan will never be a land by the mullah for the mullah and to be lorded over in the name of fear and ignorance. The mullah has to understand one simple truism and that is, he can try but he cannot stop progress and the flow of time and he cannot make time flow backwards.

A good point is to recall the conversation between two Pakistanis intercepted by the Indians
during the 1965 war. The Pakistani officer was resisting the Indians and was calling his superior and telling him that he was running low on the ammo. The advice that he got was to have faith in Allah and fight on and his reply was, ``Sir, I have faith in Allah, but I still need that bloody ammo!``

Insha`allah, one day I hope there is a Pakistani Hindu Chief of Army Staff. I hope there will be a Christian Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pakistan, who will uphold the laws and the constitution of Pakistan, which will not be the constitution of 1973. I hope that a Sikh will be the prime minister of Pakistan and the finance minister of Pakistan will be a Parsi.

Since we are on the subject, let me share a funny story with you. One of Jinnah`s drivers was a Hindu, who would continually borrow money from Jinnah. After while, Jinnah got annoyed by his contant borrowing and one day, when he asked if he could borrow some more money, Jinnah asked him ``when did you become a Muslim?`` After this, the man stopped borrowing money! :) lol

If you feel that people like me are a threat to Pakistan, then you should return post haste to Pakistan and join the forces of regression and ignorance against the twenty-first century. You should stop claiming and promising to carry me on your shoulders on Madison Aveune, and instead leave the United States, you detest and come back to Pakistan and fight the Pakistan army in FATA and if you are lucky, you can enter paradise before all of us.

Ciao

ahmedzai #122 Actually, we have had this tension between the progressive vs regressive forces in muslim societies for the past thousand years. The progressives included people like Salahuddin (whom I referred to earlier, and who set an example not merely of courage in battle, but - in many ways far more important - in his honorable conduct against a vanquished foe which won him the hearts of his worst enemy, namely Richard the LionHeart of england); and Ibn Sina (who studied works from other cultures, and was hounded throughout his life by mullahs, on more than one occassion being chased out of town by the mullahs at the point of a spear), who is revered across the world as Avicenna; and (coming to more modern times) Sir Syed Ahmed Khan (who called for muslims to get off their high horse and send their children to school, thus earning him the enmity of the mullahs).
Unfortunately, the regressives have often managed to come out on top - thus, the mutazalis in early Islam (who called for freedom of thought) were suppressed, the concept of ijtihad (consensus) was suppressed by these forces - the mullahs and qadis were in fact merely acting on behalf of kings and caliphs who suppressed progressive forces in muslim countries in order to preserve their kingship.

Seen in this background, the current conflict within Pakistan society, and indeed perhaps even more so in many other muslim countries, takes on an interesting light. Namely, after centuries of suppression by the regressive forces (the mullahs, caliphs, badshahs and so forth), the progressive forces in muslim countires are finally being revived by a powerful stimulus: the awakening of the rest of the world - globalization. For this reason, there seems no doubt of the ultimate outcome: the mullahs are dead meat, historically speaking.

re:#121 by ahmadzai
That link to a newsclip with Sonia Gandhi`s rantings was pathetic. What was the point?
Sridhar

re: Malik99 # 106

If you had read my post, I had said clearly that it was a ``point of clarification``. If you had been a bit less emotional, you would have understood what I was trying to do and that was simply state what had happened. You were free to disagree with my post, but when you called me ``you mullah bashing, west slaving, murder rationalizing, pajero driving, steak eating, bottled water drinking, i-pod listening, Armani wearing elite``, you simply destroyed your own credibility as a rational human being capable of an intelligent conversation.

As to my ilog, I was indulging in some wistful musings based on a reading of history. I am and was against the American invasion of Iraq, because I did not agree with its political aims, which were opaque. I have no love for Saddam Hussein and I did not rue his departure from the scene and had he departed from this world, I would not have been any less happy. I think that there is no difference between a person, who kills another human being for a political reason or one who kills for the honor of his culture by splashing the face of a woman with sulphuric acid. I consider them both to be terrorists and people of an evil bent of mind, who have to be erdicated from this planet like the vermin of Biblical times. All the religions of the world condemn killings of another human being as they were instructed by their God, but it was the twisted mind of humans who construed an understanding that killing for a noble cause was allowed and was pardonable in religion. This is what a real blasphemy is, when humans twist and profain the word of God to suit their own selfish and greedy intentions.

Remember, before anything else, we are human beings first and we were human beings long before religion was even a dream and religion does not stop us from being human beings and I will be a human being before I am anything else.

No religion allows the barbarism, which is practiced in its name. I am a person, who lives in the twenty-first century and I have no wish to live in the darkened ages of a seventh century, when female infanticide was still common and was considered as an honorable custom. I have faith that one day my poor blighted nation, which has suffered so much at the hands of fools, will have new birth of freedom. I have faith in my nation that it will one day reach the threshold of the dream, which many sowed with the last drops of their blood and I know, in my heart, that meaning of Pakistan was not supposed to a nation of the ignorant by the ignorant and for the ignorant.

The future of Pakistan lies ahead and if neccessary, this nation has to be dragged by its hairs kicking and screaming into the future. Some people will be left behind and others will resist, but the future of Pakistan does not belong to the living; it belongs to the unborned generations who one day will breath free and think free from fear and prejudice. Pakistan has to move ahead no matter how bitter the cost and no matter how difficult the hurdles. Those who resist, will have to be swept aside for the betterment of the future generations and in the end, the cost of all the spilled blood will be measured in the prosperity of the future, which was paid in the blood of Pakistanis.

In a cold calculating sense, if a thousand or a hundred thousand die so that a million or a hundred million and more can have a future, then I am willing to make that bargain. If Pakistan has to be rescued from Pakistan, then it must be rescued and if Pakistanis are Pakistan`s worst enemies, then they have to fought and defeated and killed in order that Pakistan may live.

Sir, you talked about your admiration of American idealism and when you admire the American idealism, remember that idealism was won by people willing to shed the last drop their blood. People, who believed in this idealism, bled upon the bridges in Lexington and Yorktown; they bled on the fields of Gettysburgs of a war, which saw more Americans kill Americans than Americans were killed in entire Vietnam War and they fought for this idealism that all humans are created equal and endowed with freedom on the fields of France with names like Bellau Woods and the Argonne Forest. They fought and died by the thousands so that this idealism of freedom and equality can free the people, who dreaded the names of the places like Bergen Belsen and Nordhausen and they fought for this idealism from Kasserine Pass to the beaches of Normandy.

I may dislike the American reasons for invading Iraq, but I can never forget the thousands of Americans, who left their homes and died in foreign fields, so others may also share in their idealism and learn to cherish it enough to consider dying for it. I respect the Americans, because they know that idealism demands blood.

Idealism is attained by blood and more blood and in Pakistan, we have to shed blood and our own blood if necessary, because our idealism for a better Pakistan demands it.

Ciao

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Mohar11, I love how you try and dramatize the situation even more. And, excuse me for my naivete but I still don`t see the irony you so excitedly are trying to point out.

Sir, with all due respect, step out of your bias and see the actual situation for how it is. The muslims that are opressed in Kashmir did not initially pose any threat to India on the whole. Also, again as I pointed out earlier, the blood of the people is at the hands of the tribal elders who refused to let the army administer the area is it is supposed to . It is called FATA, Federally Administered Tribal Area, notice how federally adminstered preceeds tribal area ? The object of the army is not to wipe out the ``Tribal culture``, you along with the tribals, so highly revere. It is to administer and have control over a part of PAKISTAN ! (Kindly refrain from making baseless analogies)

You speak of referendums; what kind of a referendum do you want ? Grant the population of India such leverage and you`ll soon lose India to about a 100 smaller independant states.

Lastly, did anybody ever introduce you to utilitarianism ?

Wana solution for kashmir,

When pakistan talks about aa just solution for kashmir, it is the wana example they have in their minds. After pillaging a few tribals and demolishing their houses, the mighty pak army has withdrawn, for fear of being massacred by the jihadis. They lost 50 men, a lot more were taken prisoners, in charectaristic pak army way of 90,000 surrendered. Now that valient pak army has retreated so that the alquida can come back.
This one has to remeber in the oft repeated talks in pakistan about the territorial integrity, no one even the romairs and ferzoks talk of the wana territory.

Then of course there is the legend, no one has controlled the wana region, including alexander. No one cares to ask about the lord, ``daisy cutter``, that is what has demolished the mighty jihadic army of taliban. Now taliban are in wana, and all that is needed is a few more of this.

The so called war on terror is the war on jihad, the soldiers of god who seek death just like how the others seek life, and the only way to succeed is to deliver shehdad to them at their own door steps, in the car and on the wheel chair.

Real democracy,

There is something to be proud of for the intelectuals of pakistan in todays news, especially for the tahmeds who maintain that honourkilling is some tribal tradition, not legitimised by the pak constitution. A man has been sentenced for 23 years in prison for defaming the military, while the killers of women go scot free and are invited by the president to reassure that the honour killing laws will stay.

Pathetic to see pakistanis talking about democracy while the educated elites of pakistan like YLH and tahmed try to white wash the crime against women.

Mohar11:

Many questions you have asked and Sameem provided you many answers. Can I ask you a question, since many Pakistanis would be interested in having an answer on it?

Kindly click here to read the article and tell us why has militancy increased so much in India.

Tauheed at 108:

On a rude awakening to Pakistan in 9/11, I totally agree with you. The rude awakening has been a blessing in disguise. You are absolutely right. Pre-9/11, lashkars were seriously challenging the state write inside Pakistan.

Pakistanis as a confident market of 140 million people, militarily strong and at a point of economic take-off, should be out of our emotional self and telling the whole world loudly and proudly that we are back in the race of economic development and prosperity and will reach the top. Unfortunately, our Islamists are bet upon giving such a pessimistic picture of Pakistan to the world that it seems Pakistan is the most unstable place in the world.

My only concern is the gloom and doom picture painted by Islamists may be taking more and more people away from constructive contribution to the country to negative.

Zain Malik:

You are being emotional about 7,500 soldiers moving in WANA to nab perhaps 400 people. This is blowing picture out of proportion. The world gets a very negative picture of Pakistan on this unnecessary hue and cry. Instead we need people like you to be traveling all across the globe selling Pakistan`s salient features for foreign investment.

In the NWFP we need foreign tourists to come, because the province is heavily dependent on tourism. We don`t have any other alternative to boost economy. Our entire travel industry depends upon cultural tourism and adventure travel. Adventure travelers come to the province for trekking and mountaineering, whereas cultural tourists head straight for Kalash Valley. Some weirdoes do try their hands at Peshawar-Landikotal antique safari train. If you people keep raising unnecessary noise on something very small, our industry will die. As it is, people are facing problem. Yet being good Muslims that we (Pakhtoons)are, we have to be super-emotional about everything. We are bent upon listening to Islamists who we know will choke off any economic prospects that we (Pakhtoons of NWFP) have.

You need to realize our problems and help our people make their lives better even if they don`t know what is good for them. My family could have also joined the pessimist brigade, but only 4 years of college education in the USA has taught me to take a realistic view of the situation. If the people of our province continue giving into emotional rhetorics, the economy will go southwardly at a time when our population will be going northwardly. Just imagine the mess we (Pakhtoons) will be in.

The best course of action is to let opposition battle it out in the parliament and for us to do positive things for the country.

The success of India has been that it detached its day to day chores from the socio-political problem it faces. The world only sees the optimistic face of India, a country of 250 million strong middle class, Bollywood, IT, outsourcing, growing economic and military might, etc. No body focuses on its poverty level of 300 million or so, ethnic and religious discords and killings, secessionist movements and associated violence, etc that far exceeds the levels we have in Pakistan.

tahmed32 - no one ever said that truth DOES NOT hurt :) Now that I have given you a good dose of truth, you are in the ``denial`` phase of your recovery. The next stage would be ``acceptance``. Keep it up.

ahmedzai #108 The internet is indeed an interesting development - previously, the geniuses you mention (and I am of course quite familiar with such individuals) kept their nonsense to themselves and to anyone willing to listen to them. With the internet, they write chain letters, show up on discussion groups like chowk. Even on the internet they dont matter.

It is when they start getting money and arms that things get serious. That is where I think the Pakistani governments from Zia on down have failed us in allowing them to become a menace to Pakistani society. I am convinced that if 9/11 had not happened, we could well have had civil war between the government and the lashkars in Pakistan. In a sense, that is what is happening now in Wana, except that it is not the local lashkars but foreign thugs that the government is cleaning up.

malik #113 Unless you can back your cheap insults by quoting something I have written, I will ignore what you have written.

tahmed32: you wrote: ``And certainly not expat Pakistanis who spit upon the land they left behind and spit upon the land they now live in ``

i do not spit on the land i left and certainly do not spit on the land i live in. However, unlike you, i am not a good slave either.

Let me introduce you to a nobler concept of citizenship - that is, you stay vigilant of your government and you point out where it goes wrong instead of slavishly applauding every act. Unlike your enslaved self, I did not take the oath of my american citizenship to take the country as it is and leave it as it is when i die. I will do my darn best to leave it better than i found it. I want my adopted country to stay in the leadership role - not by committing genocides but by its idealism and its spirit of innovation. I will not allow my new country to be hijacked by a bunch of mid-western fundamentalist christians who have taken it upon themselves to ease the way for Messiah`s second coming.

tahmed32 - let your mind be free of prejudices. Contain your inferiority complex and you will realize that you too have just as much to contribute to your adopted country as your adopted country has contributed to you.

``RAWALPINDI, Pakistan (Reuters) - A Pakistani opposition leader was sentenced to 23 years in prison on Monday after he was accused of defaming the military and trying to incite a mutiny.``

if a civilian can get 23 years for -- ``defaming the military`` -- an already defamed army of coup d`tat after coup d`tat -- then that RENEGADE SOLDIER Musharraf should get a LIFE SENTENCE -- without Parole......

.......for he is the BIGGEST DEFAMER of that Unprofessional Pak Army -- run by a Cushy Cabal of Pot- Bellied -- Purloining -- Pilfering.....Greedy Generals...

ahmadzai #109 - You wrote ``I hope that you don`t talk to them about President Pervaiz Musharraf as whore and military as an institution of criminals, because foreign travelers are indifferent to this piece of information. Instead, you share positive things about your country``

First of all, I have very high respect of Pakistani military. Many generations of my family have honorably served in it. How it is being used today by a whorish General is another question.

Regarding your rest of the statement - It may come as a surprise to you that most of the backpackers that i have met in my many years of travelling tend to be fairly knowledgeable about the world affairs. They have a better than average sense of what is going on around the world. They openly criticize the insensitivity of West towards poor countries. They openly talk about the racism in their societies. They have no inhibitions telling me about the good AND bad in their societies. In this setting, why should I pretend that my country is ruled by a ``benevolent and just`` ruler or that he is answerable to none except his own people? Why should I lie when they don`t? I will be doing disservice to my country if i do that. Why shouldn`t i tell them that their democracy preaching governments are supporting a dictator. If you and I won`t tell them, how else would they know enough to put pressure on their governments to stop supporting dictators?

Sir, the world of nationalist aspirations is an old world. In the new world, its the ideas that matter. If you have ever been in an anti-war protest, you would see that there are people in it to whom war will have no effect whatsoever. What takes a Brazilian to shout slogans aagainst war in Iraq? What takes a Pakistani to join the protest against intervention in Haiti? Sir, as Bob Marley sang ``One World`` - this idea may seem pie in the sky or the dream of stupid young people, but it will come to bear one day, God willing.

#112 by Sameem
//...attack, therefore, has no religious connotations attached to it...//

May be. But I am surprised you don`t see the irony here .... After years of shedding crocodile tears about muslims in Palestine and Kashmir or wherever, Pakis are doing exactly the same thing that they accuse the jews. Destroying homes using bulldozer, killing civilians from gunships.
+++

//...I see nothing wrong with the Pakistani Army putting their allegience with Pakistan...//

You don`t? That`s surprising - what about self-determination for the tribals? You can`t force these poor people to pay allegiance to pakistan. Tribals have their own culture. So why don`t you guys hold some referendum there?

++++

//...The Pakistani Army of 70,000 is not killing the muslim women and children in Wana, it is protecting the millions of women and children in Pakistan..//

Really - paki army is protecting women and children in pakistan by firing missiles into a bus carrying women and children in WANA?

Mohar11, my freind, the issue at hand is not primarily religious. The fact of the matter is, that the Pakistani Government has every right to do what it`s doing. The blood of the innocent is not at the hands of the Government, but on the tribal leaders that refused to let the Government adminster an area which was always meant to be adminstered by the Government. The fact that it should have been done much sooner, does not undermine the necessity of it being done now. The attack, therefore, has no religious connotations attached to it, subsequently the attacks on muslims in Kashmir were as much religious as they were political. I see nothing wrong with the Pakistani Army putting their allegience with Pakistan. We are but ``Pakistani`` Muslims (as indicated by President Musharaff), and it is the right of the Government to condemn any act which jeopardizes the the current standing of the country. The fact that the people doing so are Muslim, in no way, covers up for their inhuman behavior. The Pakistani Army of 70,000 is not killing the muslim women and children in Wana, it is protecting the millions of women and children in Pakistan, a fact that never supported India`s cause when it came to Kashmir.

#102 by ferozk

Sweet irony, ain`t it ... Pakis are defending against exactly the same charges they have been hurling at Indians for years. ``700,000 kafr army killing muslims in kashmir`` used to be favorite rant of pakis of all stripes.

Now - we got a 70,000 very muslim army killing very muslim women and children using chopper gunships. Did kafr army in kashmir ever use gunships on civilians in over decade of battling the freedom fighters? I am not sure.

Tauheed at # 97:

Boss, unfortunately, these facts come from my homefront. Whereas my relatives from paternal side are doing better economically (all of them living in Pakistan), my maternal side is into Mullaism, thanks primarily to an energetic Mamoon living in the foreign lands. Each day my brothers and I have to be responding to an emotionally written email chain that builds from my maternal cousins living across the globe.

Urstruly and malik99 both remind me of the contributors from that chain. And I know how people get into emotionalism. Its a campaign run by educated workers of Jamaat-e-Islami. My councillor cousins, when cornered, have no facts to base their allegations. As soon as they are cornered, they either rush to the bathroom, because the next prayer is always 2 hours later so they have to prepare for it now or leave the discussion saying, ``bhai Allah Malik hay``. Even if I we convince them on my point, after the prayers in the duaa, they pray for the same thing,``Aay Allah hamaary qabaileey bratheraan or Mujahidon ka Nigahbaan hoyey aur zaalim army walon kay khilaaf ho jayey``

The problem is that they don`t have any economic program for the betterment of the NWFP. Therefore, they use Islamic emotionalism to keep their public support. Now unfortunately, this strategy can only work in the Pakhtoon community, because puray muslamanon ka ghum Allah nay hamain hee uthanay ka hukum day rakka hay.

malik99 (various posts):

Since you are a backpacker, our expectations from you are higher than compared to an average emotional soul. I would just like to clarify few things from your last posts:

1. History tell us that when Queen Isabella sold all her jewellery and wealth after driving Moors out of Spain and set Columbus on sale, discovering new lands was not on her mind. She was looking for a sea route for doing trade with ``Cathay``. So remember that economy should be the priority. All the other benefits may come as attendants.

2. We also expect from you that when you are on foreign lands, you make new friends. After your gain confidence, you all begin to share information from your personal lives. This interaction should be used most prudently. I hope that you don`t talk to them about President Pervaiz Musharraf as whore and military as an institution of criminals, because foreign travelers are indifferent to this piece of information. Instead, you share positive things about your country. I know for sure that you also tell them that Pakistan is a safe place to travel where they will enjoy hospitality and that it should be the next place on their travel destination. But I am also sure that one should not travel into tribal areas of Pakistan, because it is not safe.``

You definitely don`t tell them that,``oh yes and after you have visited Kalaash Valley in the northern NWFP, please take a drive into our tribal agencies of North and South Waziristan. The people are Muslim Mujahids and will treat you with utmost respect.``

You know why you won`t tell them that because you know fully well that once on tribal land, foreigners will be a fair game for kidnappers offering immense economic opportunities for criminal element there. This is a fact. You tell them confidently what you know on the basis of pure facts.

Kindly also note that if Pakistan goes into political chaos due to emotionalism raised by fundamentalists, people like you will not be able to travel across the globe freely. As a traveler you should know the touristic lack of importance of Iran, Libya, North Korea, etc. Just remember how Pakistan will be treated. We are siding with the West and yet look at the negative propaganda all the time in Western and Indian media. If we go into the hands of Mullas, we will become a classic bad boy for punching at will.

Of course, I am assuming that you don`t support PML N or PPP, because both would have acted the same way post 9/11.

malik: Sorry if I sounded sarcastic. I was trying to be funny. By all means go out and see the world. No problem. Maybe you will discover Middle Kingdom. (just trying to be funny again).

I think it is fine to send robots like the two little guys we have on mars nowadays, for example. I think humanity should aim for mining operations on the asteroids someday. I think humanity should aim to extend its five senses to all the nine (10?) planets, to all the moons of these planets, to all the asteroids. I am all for investing in billion dollar article accelerators to find the graviton - humanities passport to beyond the 4 dimensions. I am all for investing in medical research to get beat that biggest enemy of mankind: bacteria and viruses, whose biomass exceeds that of humanity by many factors. And I am convinced we are the last few generations that are doomed to die - there is no Godly rule that says humanity cannot extend its life span from fourscore and ten to fourtrillion and ten. For the first time in history, mass poverty is no longer taken for granted. The world now has the resources to educate every single child, who will then in turn unleash his or her mental abilities to fuel this epic march of humanity.

I am convinced that the greatest frontiers of humanity lie before us. And they are vastly greater than anything we can even imagine today.

But guess who is going to do all this when we say ``humanity``? Not mullahs and terrorists, I can assure you. And certainly not retired Pakistani army colonels with acres of plots and miles long conspiracy theories. And certainly not expat Pakistanis who spit upon the land they left behind and spit upon the land they now live in and spit upon those who seek to join the rest of the world in contributing to humanity`s epic journey that no doubt will lead to all these frontiers I mention above. Not these bloody losers. They are lucky if they can find their way to the toilet every day.

And guess who is leading this epic journey that humanity is embarked on: it is the US. And other civilized nations are working hand in glove with the US in this epic journey. Not Saudi Arabia, not Fauji Foundation, not Mullah Fazloo who live in the past and who can only drag humanity back into its animal past if it could.

Ferozk # 102 - Just when i think you have been rehabilitated, you go back into your old ways.

Where the hell did I say that 70,000 soldiers were sent into Wana? This is what I wrote in #98: ``You mean 70,000 army personnel laced with the most lethal armory were sent into the tribal areas to have a cup of tea?``

I said TRIBAL AREAS and NOT Wana, you mullah bashing, west slaving, murder rationalizing, pajero driving, steak eating, bottled water drinking, i-pod listening, Armani wearing elite.

By the way, I really liked your i-log of today regarding Iraq. See Ferozk, you can be perfectly rational sometimes. This was a great i-log written with good insight and sound study of history. Thanks for sharing it with the rest. I would lift you up on my shoulders and walk down Madiason Ave, but I am suffering from allergies. You are a good man - sometimes.

tahmed32 # 105 - You wrote: ``our Shackelton as he braves the cold resulting from turning the airconditioning thermostat too low``

Your sarcastic post reminds me of this saying from a pseudo-elite like you: ``No new inventions are possible. Everything we need has already been invented``.

So Tahmed32, stay where you are, there is no new frontier to be discovered, no new inventions to be made. It is ``enlightened elites`` like you who argue that NASA should not be awarded billions of dollars to explore the frontiers of space and this money instead should be used to eradicate world hunger.

To know how the definition of ``terrorism`` changes, read Ferozk`s i-log of today. George Washington was branded terrorist, so was Ben Gurian, Arafat (Nobel Peace prize winner), Nelson Mandela (noble peace prize winner).

Come out of your slavery. Try being a free thinker. You might like it.

malik #98 Before you die of horror, read the full text of what ahmedzai has written:

``It was not that our military entered tribal area of Zelikhel tribe to attack. The tribals were given a warning to handover the wanted criminals by a certain deadline. Safe passage was promised. Yet the sub-tribe refused. When our para-military entered the area, they were least prepared for a show-down from the other side. Taken by surprise at being encircled, they called for military help. In the process, they lost lives and some men, who were later brutally murdered. Army went in to rescue them. ``

This is an accurate statement of what happened from all indications. I told you to use your eyes. But never fear. Stick around on chowk long enough, and it will be a pleasure to train you to start using those faculties you never knew you had - your eyes and your brains.

#99 by arjun_m on April 12, 2004 8:40am PT
//...So if you launch a military operation that ends up without an inch of land and you are forced to disown the bodies of your dead soldiers, you are made president...//

Mushy may stink to the high heaven - but the loyal hangers-on like tahmed, romair ... would continue to put him on the pdestal as the great white hope for land of the pure.

With people like these as their guiding ``intellectuals`` - pakis need no