The Secularity of India

#tahmed32 245
``I am not concerned about the negative profiling of Islam.``
You should be.The more important issue here(than the issue that what exactly is the essence of Islam)is that sharia and other holy scriptures continue to be used by some sectarian elements to spread communalism and hype up imaginary issues for muslims. If you see my posts here, I have never doubted the ``essence of Islam``; The fact that I am most concerned about is that the source of truth is written in stone. My questions were not regarding what shariat says, it was more regarding if and how it can be amended. I later concluded that since it is a directive principle, not following it to the letter would not violate the ``essence of islam``. This conclusion follows from the article I gave the link to.
Quote
``He also referred to Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and said that Maulana Abul Kalam Azad in his commentary on the holy Quran makes distinction between Din (essence of religion) and Shariat (Islamic legal code, rituals etc); only the former is immutable while the latter is not`` (Indian Muslims by A.A.Engineer, 1985, page 288)``
Unquote
Please pay special emphasis to the words ``commentary on the holy Quran`` in the quote. I belived the commentator because I wanted to believe him in the first place. If you use google, you will find commentators who might interpret the opposite. The fact that they may be wrong does not matter much here because you and Maulana Azad wont be there everytime to say ``Quran itself says`` when a fundamentalist says ``Quran says``.And they will say ``Quran says`` a million times because thats all what they do before you get a chance to say ``Quran itself says`` once.
IMVHO the religious brainwashing and proneness to dogma will continue unless and until you get out of the traps of ``Quran says`` and ``Quran itself says`` .How about saying ``What if the Quran says?``?I sincerely hope that this can be said one day without amounting to blasphemy. And here I support Faruk when he says that you have to get out of the belief that Islam is perfect, or for that matter, any religion is perfect.Nothing that can evolve is perfect.

Alephnull #244,

Thanks for the detailed response. My thoughts are along the same lines, to be
honest - the question was more rhetorical than anything. Secularism being
defined as ``equal treatment of all religions`` is a very slippery slope. I have
a feeling that we adopted this definition due to Gandhi`s colossal presence in our
national life in the early years. Perhaps it was a mistake; however, I have difficulty
envisioning an Indian state indifferent to religion.

I think we are pointing to the same article by Shahabuddin.

Harimau #239,

``Take a break. Place some ice packs around your head to cool your brain.
Stop thinking along the lines of Imam Syed Bukhari or J. Nehru. After several
years of this treatment, your brain might be able to recover some of its normal
analytic ability.``

My brain works well (within its modest limits) at room temperature, thank you
very much. We are not all endowed with Tamil Brahminical deductive and logical
abilities - kya karein ?

If and when you actually graduate to a level where you don`t have this infantile
obsession of throwing insults at strangers (is this a TamBrahm trait as well - I doubt
it), we will have a discussion. In the meantime, wallow in your casteist throwback
fantasies.

jang #236
The BJP threw away a good opportunity to do things the right way and communalized the whole debate.

plats8 #203

{{My question then remains - wouldn`t making arrangement for the various Kumbh
Melas and Urs at Ajmer Sharif violate the secular index as well?}}

It depends on the nature of the arrangements made. If you define secularism as “state indifference to religion”, you can make a good case that government arrangements that do not involve a financial subsidy do not violate secularist principles. They would not be consistent with a belief in absolutely minimal governance, but beyond a point that is orthogonal to the secularism issue.

Those who accept the necessity for a state and a government (i.e. everyone but the most extreme anarcho-capitalist libertarians) generally accept that the state has both an interest in and a responsibility towards the physical welfare of its citizens, i.e. their protection from bodily harm and such. So police bandobast, emergency medical assistance, facilitating the completion of official requirements (passports/visas etc.) can be provided for all large-scale gatherings or movements of citizens, whether they are for religious pilgrimages or attendance at sporting events or simple tourism. Whether the activity concerned has a ‘religious’ character should not matter to the state; what should matter is primarily that the activity (whether religious gathering or football match) does not involve perpetrating or inciting violence against the state, or against fellow citizens. Religious pilgrimages generate economic activity just as football matches do, and thereby contribute to the state’s revenue via taxation. It should be possible to calculate government expenditure on security etc. for the event and measure it against government revenue from the event to ensure that there is no gross financial inequity involved.

As long as the criteria of no inequitable subsidies, no criminality are met, secularism as ‘state obliviousness to religion’ is not violated. Whether secularism defined as ‘equal treatment of religions/religious communities’ is violated is impossible to determine because of the highly subjective and contentious question of ‘equal treatment of communities’. I abhor that definition for this reason among others. Secularism defined as ‘state hostility towards religion’ is obviously violated – I do not believe it is a useful definition.

{{there is a lengthy Milligazette article by Syed Shahabuddin calling for the
abolishment of the Haj subsidy.}}

There is a short article by Syed Shahabuddin on the same subject here:
Haj subsidy is a fact and must go eventually

rahul #243 I am not concerned about the negative profiling of Islam. Doesnt affect me or the vast majority of muslims one bit (except perhaps the handful of muslims who happen to live at their mercy, as in Gujerat). It doesnt say much for the profiler either, since he is obviously as much of an ignoramus and loser as the islamist extremists. Some muslims love to wallow in self-pity and paranoia and talk about profiling - but the fact is that they would never dream of leaving the west for any middle eastern country. I consider them to be hypocrites for this reason.

And indeed, some of the finest and most popular writers on Islam in the west are non-muslims like Esposito and Karen Armstrong, and so at least those people in the west also happen to make clear the proud history and culture of which all muslims can be proud of.

Some non-muslims in India like yourself who are otherwise intelligent people, may assume that those who speak about shariah know what they are talking about (as you did), but even in that case it doesnt matter very much since it doesnt do any harm.

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I did get some answers here
Indian Muslims have been victim of vote bank politics by Congress and Muslim fundamentalist organisations. They have to realize that not implementing the shariat in letter is not against the essence of Islam,as tahmed32 has also pointed out and has been the case in many other ``Islamic`` countries.(shariat is more like a guiding principle) Actually, this has resulted in giving Islam negative publicity where it does not deserve .But ultimately, religion is the people that practice it, and if the muslims dont wisen up and focus on the real issues facing them, the unfair profiling of Islam as a militant and intolerant religion will continue.

Ref Meen-kari-kuzhambu #112

[I guess you`re right about the UCC making india not ``truly`` secular. The alternative is a fascist state that forces people to adapt - kind of like the secular state of turkey. I think i`d rather live with a not-so-secular state than a fascisitic one.]

So, an atheistic person like you must be finding things such as the slogan on the currency ``In God We Trust``, compulsory holiday for Christmas, etc., to be a fascistic imposition on your personal freedoms. So when are you moving back to Tamil Nadu instead of continuing to live in The Great Satan?

[India is a grand experiment that is trying to bring together a multitude of nations, peoples, and religions together.]

Ah yes, I suppose that the slogan ``Kill the Brahmins`` is supposed to bring people together, just like ``Kill the Jews`` brought the Germans together.

[The only way to make that experiment succeed is not be dogmatic about things. What works is what we need.]

Well, that slogan seems to have worked for Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion during the recent election.

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #186

[Lack of the UCC sticks in the craw of hindutva bigots as a case of appeasing the minority. I don`t think they are moved by humanitarian concerns as, if that were the case, they`d try to reform their house first.]

YOU could start the reform movement, you know. Have you stopped beating your wife?

Ref plats8 #203

[Re: Haj subsidy,

It is interesting how the Manasarovar subsidy that the Indian govt gives is seldom
under scrutiny. I just googled it up, and it seems that the annual Haj subsidy per
person is about Rs. 20,000 ; the Manasarovar subsidy is about Rs 13,500 per
person - not that different altogether, given the distances involved.]

One would think that despite years of propaganda during the school years, Indians would retain some semblance of sanity or analytical ability. Sadly, that is not the case.

Since you claimed to have googled the subject, I also did the same thing: googled ``Mansarovar subsidy``. Here is the URL for questions and answers in the Indian Parliament on the subject: http://meaindia.nic.in/parliament/ls/2000/03/questn2032.htm

[SHRI CHINMAYANAND SWAMI:
SHRI BRIJLAL KHABRI:
SHRI SURESH RAMRAO JADHAV:
SHRI CHANDRAKANT KHAIRE:

Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) the number of persons who went on pilgrimage to Mansarovar (China), Nanaksar (Pakistan) and Haj (Mecca) during each of the last three years;

(b) whether the Government had provided any financial assistance and other facilities to persons going on pilgrimage to Mansarovar and Nanaksar at par with haj pilgrims during the above period; and

(c) if so, the details thereof;

(d) the amount spent thereon during the above period; and

(e) if not, the steps taken by the Government in this regard?

ANSWER
MINISTER OF STATE FOR EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
(SHRI AJIT KUMAR PANJA)

(a)
Year Mansarovar (China) Nanaksar (Pakistan) Haj (Mecca)
1997 516 6680 81,766
1998 487 6525 94,602
1999 459 2308 98,072


(b) - (e)

Mansarovar (China):

The Kailash Mansarovar Yatra, along the traditional route across Lipulekh Pass in Pithoragarh District of Uttar Pradesh, is co-ordinated by the Ministry of External Affairs and conducted with the assistance of various Central and State Government agencies. Kumaon Mandal Vikas Nigam (KMVN) makes the required logistical arrangements for the Yatra on the Indian side, including boarding and lodging. During 1999-2000, MEA provided Rs.3250 per yatri to KMVN for this purpose. Government provided for medical examination prior to the Yatra and medical assistance, security and escort cover, insurance cover and communication links between the Indian and Chinese sides for the duration of the Yatra. The Government also deputed a Liaison Officer and a doctor with each batch of yatris. The Delhi State Government provided for stay of yatris at Ashok Yatri Niwas in New Delhi for 4-5 days during their onward and return journey. It is the endeavour of Government to improve and upgrade facilities for the yatris on a continuing basis.

The total expenditure ncurred by MEA on account of logistical arrangements, communication links and publicity for the Yatra is indicated below:-

1997 : Rs.25,78,000
1998 : Rs.14,61,000
1999 : Rs.42,09,688

Nanaksar (Pakistan):

In respect of Jathas visited Pakistan, no financial assistance is provided. But the Government provides assistance in issuance of visas, issue of foreign exchange through RBI, special train services for the pilgrims, both for onward and return journeys, and attaches a Liaison Officer from the High Commission of India, Islamabad with the visiting jathas, who renders assistance to the pilgrims when the pilgrims contact for any kind of help.

Haj (Mecca):

The financial assistance is provided by the Government in the form of a subsidy to partially defray the cost of air-fare. The assistance is given to only those pilgrims who perform Haj under the aegis of Haj Committee. The quantum of subsidy to defray the cost of air-fare over the last three years has been as follows:-

1997 : Rs. 80.01 Crores
1998 : Rs.119.44 Crores
1999 : Rs.109.55 Crores

To facilitate the smooth performance of Haj by the Indian pilgrims, the Government deputes medical, para-medical and administrative staff from India and also augments the staff strength of our Consulate in Jeddah by recruiting temporary staff for the duration of Haj. In addition, the Government also sends medicines in Saudi Arabia for use by Haj pilgrims in case of need.]

The cost of logistics involved in the Mansarovar pilgrimage is termed a ``subsidy``. By the same token, why isn`t the cost of medical and administrative staff added to the Haj subsidy to compute the true Haj subsidy? Just the fare discount for Haj is considered the subsidy. This alone comes to Rs. 110 crores as opposed to the Mansarovar logistics cost of Rs. 42 lakhs. Yet you use the per capita figures to twist the stats in your favor.

Of course it is not like every Haj pilgrim is given Rs. 20,000 or so to defray part of the airfare. In reality, Air India flies extra flights to Saudi Arabia for the Haj, taking the pilgrims to Saudi Arabia. Since Air India doesn`t have a million B-747s, these planes return empty to India. Then, at the end of Haj, they fly empty to Saudi Arabia and fly the Hajis back. Why is the cost of these flights (logistical costs) not included in computing the total Haj subsidy? If Air-India did not fly extra flights, we would have maybe 1,000 persons going to Haj from India because that might be the number of available seats on flights.

Remember guys, thete is NO cure for the BRAINWASHING that goes on in Indian schools and Indian media. Most of you shouldn`t complain about Pak media brainwashing Pakistanis! The state of your brains approach that of the most rabid Jihad-loving Pakistani.

[My question then remains - wouldn`t making arrangement for the various Kumbh
Melas and Urs at Ajmer Sharif violate the secular index as well ?]

Yes, it would. However, I think the state has an interest in public order and safety and that might override the considerations of secularism, particularly when arrangements are made for Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Sikh religious functions without regard to whether the religious festival in question is one approved by the state.

Take a break. Place some ice packs around your head to cool your brain. Stop thinking along the lines of Imam Syed Bukhari or J. Nehru. After several years of this treatment, your brain might be able to recover some of its normal analytic ability.

arjun

i know from my shia collegues that they have always visited iraq in the past as pilgrims and have some attachment for that place, so protesting bombing there has some rationale.

regarding a true democratic ``debate`` on UCC..IMO this is a bad idea. indian democracy is not ready for such debates. this will inflame passions, and give chance to all the lumpen elems. this issue is very low on the general priorities of the state, and should be allowed to rest/fester for a while. hindus and muslims are hurtful to women populance in equal measure, nothing that ucc can solve in a jiffy.

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rahul/Faruk: On rahul`s question ``What is the process for reform in the Muslim personal laws? Is there anything prescribed by the laws themselves ? ``, I dont know the basis on which Indian muslim family laws were introduced, but I assume with Faruk that they were introduced thru the parliamentary process. Nevertheless, as I said earlier, they represent an abuse of the democratic process by special interest groups (muslim activists in this case) - after all, there was no referendum held among indian muslims on the issue as far as i know.

I dont think Faruk is right that muslim laws are introduced in the same parliamentary fashion in other countries too. Thus, in Pakistan, ``islamic`` laws were introduced by fiat by Zia. Maulvis in Pakistan talk a lot about shariah laws: but historically, there have been no parliaments thru which shariah was introduced - thus, ottoman`s had Qadis appointed by caliphs, and there was no concept of a parliament. The Qadis drew their power from the caliph, and the caliph drew his power from the sword. There is nothing in the Quran about caliphs and kings. So, left to themselves and without using western concepts of democracy, muslim societies simply have no basis - either in the Quran or in historical tradition - for an orderly process of determining the legal framework in a country.

Interestingly, early muslim societies had started moving towards an orderly legal framework as a result of the spirit of rationalism (of which they were inspired by the Greek rationalists) that the mutazali movement had introduced in the Abbasi caliphate a couple of centuries before the brits put the first big foundation stone of democracy with the magna carta. But the mutazalis lost out to kings who did not like the idea of losing their absolute power to a parliament.

If the mutazalis had caught on (which they didnt), then perhaphs Islamic jurisprudence would have evolved towards greater rationality over the centuries as it did in the west. The concept of ijtihad (discussion) in those days was also the muslim counterpart to the parliament (which interesetingly also comes from the french word for discussion, ``parle``). But ijtihad died, mutazalis were declared kafirs, and now the only hope for muslim societies is to do what india did: see what works in the west, namely the western forms of government, and adopt them. We missed the boat on ijtihad, let us not miss the boat on democracy.

Interestingly, I understand there have been attempts to revive the mutazali emphasis on rationalism as a counter to wahabi islam of saudi arabia that has given the world al qaeda and terrorism and morals police who beat women if their heads are uncovered. But mutazalis were stillborn, western democracy survived and grew and matured.

Long answer to your short question. I just like to rant, thats all.

faruk #227
You mean to say that the shariat itself can be amended?
If yes, how many times such amenments have been done(In India, or elsewhere)?
Further, is there a body of work which records the interpretations that have been made of various shariat laws, so they can be cited as precedents while interpreting them?