Blasphemy

Ofcourse I can see the difference in details between the ex-Congress Muslim Leaders and the RSS Knickerwala Hindutva- but I am also seeing the similarities which are more evident in terms of their basing the solidarity between humans on some pre-existing religio-social similarity between humans.
This is what YOU fail to see- the fascistic foundations of Pakistani military dictatorships in last 50 years resulted from the seeds sown by the TNT to which you prescribe with great alacrity. Now, in a changed global postion on theocracy and terrorism you are acting as an apologist for the old Paki feudal order and want to re-hash TNT as a `sophisticated minority movement` without explaining what that minority movement implies- after all minorities exist peacefully with all other sub-minorities and the sub-sub-minorities of all flavours globally without seeking a ``partition`` from the other groups- (notwith standing the fact that sometimes the majority in a particular state and a regional context become minority in a national or a global context)

I would not let this thread be hijacked any more- there are plenty of threads on the issue of TNT and its theocratic and religious bearings elsewhere. I do not want to waste time on that again- Yes! in case you still feel more needs to be thrashed out we would cross swords in an appropriate context.

And this distasteful excercise of comparing the riot murder figures non-chalantly shows the type of rabble rousing that YOU indulge in- acting like a frking teenager who compares the number of frogs he has killed in the neighbourhood pond with his friend. You end up exposing your role as an apologist for the existing feudal elites whose historiography seeks to influence the Pakistani middle class to re-affirm their faith in the exisiting power equilibrium between military-feudal-mullah-beaurocratic elites.
Since dost-mittar has personally interacted with you and is aware of your social position in the Paki society I leave the final assessment of you on him.

I had offered some comments on Shery`s Bill in an urdu daily. I wanted to repeat the same here but I could not. I would however say this much that we are thankfull to Miss Shery that she provided the people an oppotunity to discuss the HOs. But she should realize this that all this theocratic nonsence started with the `Fatwa` amendment in the Constitution made by Bhutto for pure political considerations for saving his government from the onslought of the mullah. So far as Islam is concerned it has no place for the modern woman-see verse 34 of sura Nissa which allows the husband to beat his wife. In fact the overall trend of the Quran is to treat treat the woman as a sub-human creature, a field (Kheti) to be treated in whatever manner one likes. She can be kept as loundi-cum-dashta with no rights at all. See a Hadees in this respect:
ook 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Vertex...

Perhaps... I give you that much... though I am myself a Pakistani first and then a Muslim. Yet imposition either way is fascism. The point however was to counter the skewed world view of Ballu Khan, who no doubt ascribes to such ideology of imposition... it is not his fault... because the Indian propaganda is subtler than the blatant Pakistani propaganda, its hold on the masses` imagination is much greater. My own dislike for Pakistani textbooks especially Pakistan studies books is well known on Chowk... therefore I make it a point to quote Non-Pakistani authors... despite the fact that I quoted only Indian authors like B R Ambedkar, H M Seervai , Kuldip Nayyar and Khushwant Singh, Ballu Khan shamelessly retorts `go back to your Pakistan studies books`. This is the hallmark of anyone who is at loss of words and arguments. He will make stupid and idiotic comments and try to derail the discussion by drawing tangents and indulging in irrelevant BS.

-YLH

Salaam Alaikum

In response to vertex...


I couldn`t agree with you more, vertex. As an American, I get barks and howls from a lot of friends from abroad about the inconsistencies of Americas infamous past. Yet, these same individuals consider themselves devout ``nationalists`` of their country of origin. I`m considered a blind American (kuffar even) if I consider myself patriotic or in tune with the decision of America. It seems American patriotism is narcissism and abroad patriotism is nationalism. Anyone else notice the undivided line of duplicity?

More serious, some claim their country before Islam. Nonsense! Islam comes before one`s country, culture, race, etc. Shah Rukh Khan is only a minimal example of some of the ``secular nationalistic`` feeling that`s in vogue.

To mock the whole situation: those Americans should have crushed those inconsiderate Iraqi Arabs. After all, had it not been for the west, they`d still be using the camel for mass transportation.

Ends

Manto,


`He says as much. ``Let`s be very clear about one thing,`` he says, looking at his watch. ``I`m a Pakistani before I`m Hindu. My country comes before my religion - there`s no question about that.`` `

Pardon my rant...

I HATE it when people have to announce such absurd things. Even if he was ``hindu first``, he should be no less Pakistani. We Indians have this thing for asking people where their loyalties lie...was watching BBC and some lazy-brained, retarded Indian reporter asked Shah Rukh Khan if he was Muslim or Indian first. Poor guy was obviously scared out of his wits by the question, so clumsily he responded something like although religion was important, he was Indian first. Never mind the response, but it`s the audacity of asking the question that makes my blood boil. This, from a BBC correspondant no less.

My personal world view has me as a Muslim first - as that`s a constant no matter where I live. HOWEVER in terms of obligations and duty, we EACH have obligations FIRST to our neighbors, then to our surrounding community, then to the province, etc. right up to the federal level. That`s the mature attitude, not this immature attitude that treats citizenship like membership to some street gang. Is it any wonder, then, that ``patriots`` and ``nationalists`` all to often act like thugs?

Have you heard of H M Seervai, the famous Lawyer from the Indian supreme court? Is he a `TNTist too? Have you heard of Khushwant Singh, Kuldip Nayyar? Have you read Ajeet Javed`s `Secular and Nationalist Jinnah` published by Jawaharlal Nehru University Press? Is A G Noorani a TNTist? Maybe `Jawaharlal Nehru University` is TNTist as well for publishing that book Maybe by pointing out the very obvious and essential difference between the league leadership and the thugs you are comparing to those great men, Dost Mittar also becomes a TNTist in your eye?



That post is the typical old BS of the Jingoistic Indian trying to couch everything in terms that sound progressive but are really not. While I have made references to all Indian authors like Kuldip Nayyar, Khushwant Singh, etc , you refer to Pakistan Studies books... always reinforces indian garbage... Even your `Dost Mittar` points why your analogy about the Muslim League and its leadership is not true in one of his earlier posts. Only some one who is incapable of any fairness, and totally brainwashed and close minded will try and paint a picture so skewed and badly colored with bias.

If you can`t see the difference between a minority`s movement of sophisticated ex-Congress Muslim Leaders and the fascist tyranny of the Majority of the Hindutva... Meanwhile Congress`s collaboration with the theocrats of the worst kind the Jamiat-e-Ulema Hind and Deobandi Movement (Forerunner of the taliban movement) totally misses you... Gandhi`s support of the fanatical Khilafat Movement totally evades you. Then when you are unable to answer you try to resort to your pathetic little attempt at satire ...


You are sadly an insecure person rather lacking in proper historical analysis, a sense of fairness, and fed on an overdose of anti-Pakistan propaganda. While I learnt to reject Pakistan Studies Books you are totally sold on the state sponsored lies that have been fed to you. Those who have read me know what I stand for... accusing me of believing in a theocratic religous theory ( which is certainly not the basis for Pakistan in any event) is only going to prove to us that you are incapable of comprehension and are merely a rabble rouser on chowk.

I have perhaps read more of the Hindu and eastern philosophy than you can imagine, but believe me I don`t draw all sorts of weird tangents left right and center.

---

Here is another tntist... from Hindustan Times..

Fans treat me with special indulgence: Kaneria

Kadambari Murali
Lahore, April 10

A young man obligingly signs autographs for excited kids and shows them how to spin the ball, even as the other members of the Pakistani team pick up a hose pipe that`s watering the ground and wash their hands and feet.

The azaan has been called and they are readying for their namaaz. The young man turns around as someone calls his name and walks over to the other player who`s standing slightly separate from the rest, measuring up his bat.

Yousuf Youhana and Danish Kaneria are two of a kind in this Pakistani squad, in that they`re both minorities. While the Catholic vice-captain`s is a story oft told - about his underprivileged background and meteoric rise from the streets - leg-spinner Kaneria`s is altogether different.

It is a story of a boy from an upper middle-class, devout Hindu family, whose family has done business and lived in Karachi for ages. Unlike Youhana, Kaneria did not use a soti for his first bat, nor did he wonder whether he could afford to continue with the sport because of lack of money.

His father retired as vice-president of the famed Habib Bank, his brother Vikrant works in a managerial capacity in a public sector undertaking and he went to Karachi`s well-known St Patrick`s High School.

His story is unusual because he is a Hindu in an Islamic state. Nothing else.

By the way, the 23-year-old`s name is not a corruption of Dinesh, he says, his ``abbu`s best friend`` Kaawas Mullah - a Parsi - named him. ``I even have a first cousin named Farhaan,`` he says. ``My kundli said I had to be named with D and so I was; my godfather liked the name.``

Kaneria has another, better known cousin, his mother`s brother`s son. Anil Dalpat, another Hindu who played for Pakistan. Dalpat though, has nothing to do with Kaneria`s interest in the game.

Kaneria doesn`t want to go into what caused the friction but the animosity is clear and the reference to his famous cousin is the only time in the conversation when the bubbly leg-spinner`s brow gets furrowed.

Kaawas Mullah incidentally, was the reason Kaneria started thinking of the game seriously. ``By the time I was about 10, people had got used to seeing me with a ball in my hand. One day, uncle saw me bowling and realised that the leg-spin action came naturally to me. He told me I had God`s gift and shouldn`t waste it.``

The young Danish was in Class Six when he started playing cricket regularly in school. ``The teachers were fascinated by the fact that I could leg-spin so comfortably and by the time I was in the seventh, I was made to bowl with the new ball.

On Karachi`s cement wickets, I did very well. I was very fat and couldn`t field, so they would bowl me for five overs and take me off after that. I had those five overs to make an impact.``

The weight was beginning to seriously affect him and in Class 8, Kaneria went to the academy of another relative who played first-class cricket, Mohinder Kumar. ``From 3 to 10pm, I would just run, run and train. He made me obsessive about physical fitness. That is also the time I developed my loop. I was very short and needed to throw the ball further in the air to get it across properly.``

Kaneria went on to join Islamiya College, play u-16 and u-19 for Karachi and joined the Don Bosco Cricket Club, a minorities-only club. ``I have miles to go but I believe I can do it,`` he says confidently. ``I have tremendous support from my team and the public too, they treat me with a special indulgence.``

And does he ever feel left out, like the time when they do namaaz? The no is emphatic. ``I don`t do namaaz but hum saath saath dua maangte hain. Everyone looks at the heavens. Doesn`t Sachin look up and gives thanks when he scores a century?``

It is interesting to hear Kaneria talk. Even as he talks about Satyanarayan pujas and vraths and says he recites the Gayatri mantra before entering a ground, he says ``Inshallah, sab theek ho jayega``, and makes references to abbu and ammi.

He doesn`t call his parents that, but the references come naturally. ``It really doesn`t matter,`` he says, when this is pointed out. ``You people in India think we are persecuted here, but we are not. Unlike in India, there is no tension between Hindus and Muslims here in Pakistan.``

Kaneria is typical of the Hindus one has met in Pakistan and perhaps, of any minority community member anywhere in the world. Fervently religious and staunchly traditionalist, they protect their little world through customs and mores that are probably outdated in their country of origin.

And like Muslim players in India, he would be keener to prove his national credentials than someone from the majority community - who probably wouldn`t think about a need to state it anyway.

He says as much. ``Let`s be very clear about one thing,`` he says, looking at his watch. ``I`m a Pakistani before I`m Hindu. My country comes before my religion - there`s no question about that.``

Yes, one agrees, as we bid each other goodbye.

Try to read some books on Hindu Philosophy - Advaita, Visista-Advaita, Jainism , Buddhism as well before you can even speak about TNT. RSS Hindutva which you mentioned is the competitive and re-hashed version of ML TNT- all with its `essentialistic` religio-cultural solidarity. IM do not have to subscribe to the theocratic and religious theory of human solidarity in order to try and live like humans in a modern nation state.
I know - it goes over your head!!!

#154 by Mantolives on April 19, 2004 11:01am PT

What is this frking Hindutva? Go and consult your Pak Studies Books before you open your mouth.

Ballu..

Typical of Hindutvists like you... when you don`t have credible counter arguments you resort to namecalling ... Bravo...

Dost Mittar thankfuly is more educated than you... and he understands history much better than you... It is shameless of you to try and enlist him for your bigoted jingoist cause.



-YLH

A good discussion on blasphemy is now being hijacked by the neo-TNTists with their conspiracy theories on Congress and Gandhi. Dost-mittar why do you fall in this trap?

dost-mittar #150: ``Things may be better in Pakistan, according to Romair, although I am not aware of too many killers of shias hanging by their balls in Karachi.``

I am quite sure things are better in this regard in Pakistan. However, you would have to directly ask members of the Christian and Hindu community to get a clear answer. I don`t want to speak for them, I can only offer my observations.

The Shia/Sunni violence in Pakistan is terrorism-based. Not community-based. And it is heavily opposed by any govt. Pakistani govts. are always combined Shia-Sunni based. In fact, if my information is correct, its two most popular political leaders, Jinnah and Bhutto, had more ties with Shia Islam than Sunni Islam.

Such violence in Pakistan is run by tiny terrorist organizations. They are all on the run. Many of there top leaders have recently been caught. They win one NA seat, from Jhang. That`s it. And even that had to be won by a guy who had been put in jail.

Outside of Jhang, there is no public support, and massive public oppositon, for such parties.

My guess is that the recent assistance by the USA FBI in catching Al-Qaeda, may be resulted in technical assistance in catching the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi individuals also.

There will always be this kind of violence in poor countries. The reason I have an issue with the BJP version of it is, that it is directly state supported. And even organized by the state. With the leaders gaining benefits within his own party, due to the violence. This is different, and perhaps unprecendented in South Asia. Had Vajpayee prosecuted Modi, after Gujrat, it would have been a different story. Or had Modi escaped and the Indian govt. been hunting for him, it would have been a different story. The same with Advani.

In case of Pakistan, you can find similarities in this regard, on ethnic issues, not on the relgious side. I think Bhutto`s rise to power, after participating as a force in the suppression of Bengalis, falls within these boundaries. He benefited. The others like Yahya are at fault also, but at least, they did not benefit, and got the boot. I think the ethnic violence in Karachi, falls into this category. MQM and various other parties, have organized killings, and have actually politically benefited from that.

In 149 .. I mean: Non-Muslims were required to stay inside Pakistan for it to be viable economic entity.

Mantolives:
At least we are interacting. :-)
I agree 100% with the article Ishtiaq Ahmad`s article. Indeed, I might have suggested the same proposal of a memorial at the Wagah border in the past.
But the issue is more than of historical interest. At least in India, there is still this notion that the perpetratros of mob crimes are to be treated differently than other criminals. The perpetrators of mob crimes in Gujarat or of Delhi 1984 are roaming free on the streets. Nobody was hanged from the balls whether it was Vajpayee`s watch in Gujarat in 2002, Narsimha Rao`s watch in Bombay in 1992, Rajiv Gandhi`s watch in 1984 in Delhi, Indira Gandhi`s watch in Meerut and Bhagalpur or even the British watch in Calcutta in 1946. It is this mindset that needs to be changed. Things may be better in Pakistan, according to Romair, although I am not aware of too many killers of shias hanging by their balls in Karachi.

Dost Mittar :)

Sorry... that detailed post 142 was written without knowledge of your 141.

Anyway.. I am reading in detail the final volumes of `Jinnah Papers` especially those of the last 4 months of 1947... thanks to my wife who keeps gifting me these volumes...


In these volumes is included the literature that the Congress Party was distributing in Lahore and other areas of Pakistan just before and after partition. It is the most vehement propaganda aimed at Hindus and Sikhs asking them to leave the territories of Pakistan immediately because muslims would other wise kill them. This was a clear violation of the agreement of 3rd June which had expressly rejected the population transfer. This is not to say that there was genuine threat... but one is also left with wonder as to why the Congress Party would try and extract Hindus from Pakistan areas ?


Howard Donovan the DCM of the American Embassy in Dehli while commenting on the personal notes of Roger Stimson mentions that Jinnah was extremely bitter about the exodus of non-muslims who were necessary for the working of Pakistan as a viable economic entity ... the exodus of Hindus and Sikhs basically robbed Pakistan of a strong industrial base. It was therefore not in the interest of the League leadership which justifiably accused the Congress High command of a well thought out conspiracy.


It seems to prove what Khushwant Singh holds as a view :

``Mr Jinnah had sent word to my father... to persuade me to stay on in Lahore. The indication was clear; he wanted to consider me as Judge of the High Court.... Evidently he had neither wished nor forseen that in Pakistan there would be no place for Non-Muslims. `` (Khushwant Singh, Truth Love and a Little Malice, an autobiography Page 116)


The violence of Punjab aside... There remained considerable Hindu populations in Sindh, Bengal and Baluchistan ... right now Bangladesh`s Hindu population is close to 15 %... Sindh`s Hindu Population is considerably underestimated for cynical political reasons... I know for a fact that a great number of the people in Sukkur are Hindus... and even by the most conservative estimates the population of Hindus in Sindh remains 2 million.. There are ofcourse sadly very few Punjabi Hindus in Pakistani Punjab but a larger number of Sikhs ... and from the looks of it very few Punjabi Muslims in Indian Punjab also ... so the `ethnic cleansing` on both sides was pretty complete.

Lets hope... that the Government of Pakistan does the right thing and dedicates the new monument called `Bab-e-Pakistan` to all those who lost their lives in communal madness instead of just Muslims.

---

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_18-4-2004_pg3_2

OP-ED: Peace and friendship memorial or Bab-e-Pakistan —Ishtiaq Ahmed

Nobody has been charged for crimes against humanity and the 1947 genocide remains unrecognised by international law. The monsoons of August 1947 proved to be exceptionally atrocious and took their own toll of life

On April 1, Daily Times in its editorial (‘Unilateral’ message of Bab-e-Pakistan) criticises the plan announced by President Pervez Musharraf to build a unilateral Bab-e-Pakistan (Gateway to Pakistan) at Walton outside Lahore. Bab-e-Pakistan is to commemorate the suffering and tragedy of millions of Muslims who in 1947 escaped death, injury, abduction and rape from East Punjab and other parts of northern India, arriving profoundly traumatised and shattered at the Walton Refugee Relief Camp. The editorial argues that such a monument would capture only the Muslim side of a huge human tragedy that burst out in unprecedented ferocity upon hapless humanity not sparing any community. Hindus and Sikhs also suffered like the Muslims. Therefore, why mourn the suffering of only one side?

I strongly support this standpoint. My ongoing research on the 1947 events shows that the political entrepreneurs of the main political parties — Congress, Muslim League and the Akalis as well as the British Government — showed almost complete apathy to what might happen to the common people if the partition of India was not properly supervised and accomplished.

Moreover, it seems that Hindu, Muslim and Sikh leaders deliberately misled their co-religionists into believing that the partition will be affected in accordance with their wishes. For example, the Congress let the Hindus and Sikhs of Lahore believe that the city would be awarded to India although it had a clear Muslim majority. The Sikh leaders believed that Lahore, Nankana Sahib and some other portions of western Punjab would be kept in India because their holy shrines were located in them. Hindu and Sikh leaders gave the impression that the canal colonies of Lyallpur (Faisalabad) and Montgomery (Sahiwal) would be included in India because Hindus and Sikhs owned most of the property in these cities and that this would over-rule the Muslim claim based on numerical majority. The Muslim leaders were even more irresponsible. They gave the impression to their community that the whole of Punjab would be awarded to Pakistan.

Such false hopes were complicated by the fact that both the Congress and Muslim League were urban-based parties. Their leaders of Punjab were based mainly in Lahore. The Akalis had a presence in both Lahore and Amritsar. None of these parties were in contact with the thousands of villages of Punjab. Consequently the rural populations had little or no clue as to what was happening and how their lives would be affected by the decision to partition India and Punjab and Bengal.

To this must be added the biased nature of the administration that was involved in peacekeeping and transfer of population. The British had established and groomed police, judicial and military functionaries in the tradition of communal neutrality. However, Hindu, Muslim and Sikh government employees from the highest to the lowest level were advised to opt either for India or Pakistan. With a few exceptions, Muslims opted for Pakistan and Hindus and Sikhs for India.

However, some Hindus and Sikhs had reconciled themselves to living in Pakistan because they saw a modern, secular leader in Jinnah. Some Muslims opted for India because not everyone supported the Muslim League. They believed that secular India represented continuity with historical communal pluralism that prevailed in all parts of Punjab and in the Indian subcontinent as a whole.

However, once power was handed over to the Indian and Pakistani governments the officials were not always able to maintain the neutrality expected of them. Official figures of riot victims run into only a few thousands before August 14-15. One can argue that those figures are not very reliable because from July onwards the writ of the British government was confined only to a few cities and towns. Anarchy and chaos prevailed elsewhere.

What is worse is that neither India nor Pakistan have given a count of the people killed or wounded after British rule ended in mid-August. Rioting peaked during July-August and remained high until the middle of September. Criminals, political fanatics, police and lower functionaries of the judicial system often conspired to wreak havoc upon innocent human beings from the ‘enemy’ community.

In most cases the villagers were given at most a few hours to prepare for a journey that could be 20 to 350 and more kilometres until safety was reached on the other side. The old, pregnant women and small children were put on bullock-carts while the rested trudged along on foot. If the various caravans were escorted by military personnel of their own community they could reach safe havens without suffering any major loss of life. But those caravans which were not escorted at all became easy targets. Human beings were cut into pieces, children were pierced with spikes and the private parts of women were split open in fiendish ways. Nobody has been charged for crimes against humanity and the 1947 genocide remains unrecognised by international law.

The monsoons of August 1947 proved to be exceptionally atrocious and took their own toll of life. Thousands who escaped the dagger were fatally struck by epidemics such as cholera, malaria and typhoid. In the end well over a million people may have died.

On the Indian side of the Attari border opposite Wagah, there is a small monument which has been dedicated to ‘The one million Punjabis who died during partition’ but since it is on the Indian side it does not represent a common symbol of commemoration. Moreover, nationalities other than Punjabis also suffered loss of life and injury during that period.

The past few weeks have amply and incontrovertibly demonstrated that given a chance the peoples of India and Pakistan are willing not only to live in peace but also establish friendship and solidarity.

President Musharraf has courageously been changing the direction of Pakistani foreign policy from an anti-India and anti-Hindu stance to a good neighbourly equation. The Indian government also seems ready to reciprocate.

Keeping these facts in mind, it would be in the order of things if both states agree to build a memorial at equidistant between the Wagah-Attari to all the dead and the survivors of the 1947 holocaust. It should represent the tragedy of 1947 as well as the spirit of friendship and solidarity of the current times.

The author is an associate professor of Political Science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se

Dost Mittar...

144...

The issue is not of British culpability... From 15 th August 1947... Lord Mountbatten was the Governor General of an Independent India... and he was appointed by none other than the Congress leaders.

Here is an article that might undo some lies about Pakistan...


Notice... Danesh Parbharkar Kaneria is an upper middle class, St. Patrick`s school boy from Karachi... intensely patriotic and immensely forward looking... Pakistani Hindus are found in all walks of life ...



Fans treat me with special indulgence: Kaneria

Kadambari Murali
Lahore, April 10

A young man obligingly signs autographs for excited kids and shows them how to spin the ball, even as the other members of the Pakistani team pick up a hose pipe that`s watering the ground and wash their hands and feet.

The azaan has been called and they are readying for their namaaz. The young man turns around as someone calls his name and walks over to the other player who`s standing slightly separate from the rest, measuring up his bat.

Yousuf Youhana and Danish Kaneria are two of a kind in this Pakistani squad, in that they`re both minorities. While the Catholic vice-captain`s is a story oft told - about his underprivileged background and meteoric rise from the streets - leg-spinner Kaneria`s is altogether different.

It is a story of a boy from an upper middle-class, devout Hindu family, whose family has done business and lived in Karachi for ages. Unlike Youhana, Kaneria did not use a soti for his first bat, nor did he wonder whether he could afford to continue with the sport because of lack of money.

His father retired as vice-president of the famed Habib Bank, his brother Vikrant works in a managerial capacity in a public sector undertaking and he went to Karachi`s well-known St Patrick`s High School.

His story is unusual because he is a Hindu in an Islamic state. Nothing else.

By the way, the 23-year-old`s name is not a corruption of Dinesh, he says, his ``abbu`s best friend`` Kaawas Mullah - a Parsi - named him. ``I even have a first cousin named Farhaan,`` he says. ``My kundli said I had to be named with D and so I was; my godfather liked the name.``

Kaneria has another, better known cousin, his mother`s brother`s son. Anil Dalpat, another Hindu who played for Pakistan. Dalpat though, has nothing to do with Kaneria`s interest in the game.

Kaneria doesn`t want to go into what caused the friction but the animosity is clear and the reference to his famous cousin is the only time in the conversation when the bubbly leg-spinner`s brow gets furrowed.

Kaawas Mullah incidentally, was the reason Kaneria started thinking of the game seriously. ``By the time I was about 10, people had got used to seeing me with a ball in my hand. One day, uncle saw me bowling and realised that the leg-spin action came naturally to me. He told me I had God`s gift and shouldn`t waste it.``

The young Danish was in Class Six when he started playing cricket regularly in school. ``The teachers were fascinated by the fact that I could leg-spin so comfortably and by the time I was in the seventh, I was made to bowl with the new ball.

On Karachi`s cement wickets, I did very well. I was very fat and couldn`t field, so they would bowl me for five overs and take me off after that. I had those five overs to make an impact.``

The weight was beginning to seriously affect him and in Class 8, Kaneria went to the academy of another relative who played first-class cricket, Mohinder Kumar. ``From 3 to 10pm, I would just run, run and train. He made me obsessive about physical fitness. That is also the time I developed my loop. I was very short and needed to throw the ball further in the air to get it across properly.``

Kaneria went on to join Islamiya College, play u-16 and u-19 for Karachi and joined the Don Bosco Cricket Club, a minorities-only club. ``I have miles to go but I believe I can do it,`` he says confidently. ``I have tremendous support from my team and the public too, they treat me with a special indulgence.``

And does he ever feel left out, like the time when they do namaaz? The no is emphatic. ``I don`t do namaaz but hum saath saath dua maangte hain. Everyone looks at the heavens. Doesn`t Sachin look up and gives thanks when he scores a century?``

It is interesting to hear Kaneria talk. Even as he talks about Satyanarayan pujas and vraths and says he recites the Gayatri mantra before entering a ground, he says ``Inshallah, sab theek ho jayega``, and makes references to abbu and ammi.

He doesn`t call his parents that, but the references come naturally. ``It really doesn`t matter,`` he says, when this is pointed out. ``You people in India think we are persecuted here, but we are not. Unlike in India, there is no tension between Hindus and Muslims here in Pakistan.``

Kaneria is typical of the Hindus one has met in Pakistan and perhaps, of any minority community member anywhere in the world. Fervently religious and staunchly traditionalist, they protect their little world through customs and mores that are probably outdated in their country of origin.

And like Muslim players in India, he would be keener to prove his national credentials than someone from the majority community - who probably wouldn`t think about a need to state it anyway.

He says as much. ``Let`s be very clear about one thing,`` he says, looking at his watch. ``I`m a Pakistani before I`m Hindu. My country comes before my religion - there`s no question about that.``

Yes, one agrees, as we bid each other goodbye.