Blasphemy

Thankyou Teshah. I agree.

Alephnull

Unlike some Indians on these boards I have moved on from my previous positions... evolution, living and learning, etc whatever I had said 3 years ago is another story.... Have you seen me being disrespectful here? Even in my YLH avtar I was always reacting never initiating.

The fact is that you can`t take on the arguments on their merit, so you choose to indulge in personal attacks.

What is all this childish discussion irrelevant to the topic? I would request all chowkies to please avoid all loose talk and personal attacks and be serious and relevant to the topic under discussion.

Dear Punjabi Zulu ...


Did you really read my previous post?

Yes he does call himself Indian... he was born and raised there till age 16. Yet I have read his book Shame many times... and I love it. It is not a vicious work on Pakistan as you allege... you see great writers don`t work like that. In my last post I quoted from the book itself. Shame is no more vicious about Pakistan then Midnight`s Children is about India. Have you read any of them?


``chooses to call himslef Indian, to write about India, to place himself firmly within the secular conception of the Indian state and the Indian civilisation.``

Actually this my dear friend is not true.... read his book Imaginary Homelands ... read especially the article Does India Exist

To Salman Rushdie the conception of Indian civilization and the One Nation thesis is as an imaginary a concept as the two nation theory.... that doesn`t mean that either of these are fiction. So your statement is only as true as if one was to suggest that Salman Rushdie is a believer in the two nation theory. Ofcourse he is a secularist, but like most secularists he too views the modern avtar of religious nationalism i.e. religious multiculturalism with suspicion.


Like I said lets not project our own ideas on others.

Manto #196

{{Like I said I don`t have time to waste on people who condone bigotry.}}

So, despite your assertion in #187 that you had ‘no more words and time to waste’ on me, you just couldn’t resist another go, could you my lovely? I expected this. Absolutely in character.

{{Unlike your loveable posts none of my posts were intended to belittle someone else.}}

Who cares what you claim your intent was? And puhleaze … just who do you think you are fooling with your air of injured innocence? You have a loong history on Chowk in your YLH incarnation – several thousands posts worth, many nothing if not frank about your activities. Some of us who have been posting or lurking for years remember your antics very well. To begin with, you don’t brook dissent with your opinions outside very narrow limits. You just can’t handle determined opposition. When you encounter people who seen through you, your religion, and your prophet, and say so in no uncertain terms – you go ballistic in familiar fashion as you are beginning to do now. It is the mentality that lies at the heart of the concept of blasphemy. In the past you were treated with considerable indulgence on account of your youth. Isn’t it time you grew up and stopped throwing tantrums like a spoilt brat?

{{Satisfied? Now give yourself a rest.}}

Nice attempt at patronizing me, but if you were hoping to head me off, that’s not good enough. Neither that or the silly remark about ‘bigotry’ will prevent me from skewering your priceless opinions whenever the spirit moves me.

Mantolives

Rushdie rejects it in the most profound way possible...he chooses to call himslef Indian, to write about India, to place himself firmly within the secular conception of the Indian state and the Indian civilisation. Shame is a vicious work about Pakistan.

Another brilliant argument by Ballu Khan... after all I am no match for such brilliant and reasonable intellectual discussion:

Post 99 from Dost Mittar board:


You are uncouth and un-civilized to get into a reasonable intellectual discussion. You are not properly educated which I can very well see from your grasp of various issues on various other issues and topics on Chowk. You have no idea about culture or literature - you cannot tell a $hit of difference between Khayal and Dhrupad music- not to talk about various art forms and sub-cultures of Indian sub-continent. You are pi$$ing all over the board just because I have pulverized your reading of the frking TNT as a stupid minority movement



I thank him for showing me the light... now will he please answer the direct questions I asked him?

-YLH

FYI The original Yunus Shaikh petition was started 3 years ago... I signed it a couple of 100 times... On this one all my family has signed...

shameless...

Can you stop pi$$ing your frking TNT on this board AND SIGN the PETITION!!!!!

The citation in my previous post refers to Shame published by the Alfred Knofp publications... published in 1983.

I don`t have it here in Pakistan ... I miss the book a lot...

ABC Australia`s fascinating discussion on Pakistan and partition ... from last thursday.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/lnl/index/default.htm

Punjabi Zulu...

Let us not put our own words in anyone`s mouth.

Yes I have read Shame... it is one of my favorite books .... he has a very similar view of the `TNT` as me that it is an imagined concept like any Nationalism ... he doesn`t ascribe to it but he does`t `reject TNT` as you allege. Please refer to Pages 254-255 (if I am not mistaken, I am referring to it from memory)...

I paraphrase ` Pakistanis would have given up their ethnic differences for the love of a common faith had it not been made such an awesome deal`.

and

`Jinnah does not strike me as a god bothered type... it was a social cultural concept. Theology was just not the point`



-YLH

Mantolives

Have you read SHAME by Salman Rushdie?

Rushdie rejects TNT absolutely, for the same reason he battles against Hindu nationalist reductiveness today.

Alephnull,

Unlike your loveable posts none of my posts were intended to belittle someone else.
Sadly you can`t see the difference. It is not your fault. Like I said I don`t have time to waste on people who condone bigotry. So as far as you are concerned... please accept my sincerest apology and I accept that we are horrible and totally bigoted, and evil and with an agenda to dominate the rest of South Asia... yes you are right... Your world view is right, and may God help you.

Satisfied? Now give yourself a rest.



Ballu Khan,

Going by what your incredible definitions, Khushwant Singh, H V Hodson, Wolpert, Kuldip Nayyar, Salman Rushdie, Nirad Chaudhry, H M Seervai, B R Ambedkar and Ajeet Javed are all TNT Islamists .... since their views of partition are roughly similar to my own and it is their work I have used in my extensive posts... In that sense even Azad is a TNT Islamist because I also rely a lot on that wonderful book of his `India wins freedom` which essentially proves the Ayesha Jalal/Cambridge View of partition.

Since you brought up Salman Rushdie ... here is another article by him people like you should read Does India Exist ? It essentially makes the same points as me ... that Nationalism is Imagination but not Fiction ... perhaps you should read Benedict Anderson`s view on this... but perhaps you are too arrogant to do that. See unlike you I am not obsessed with disproving imagined ideas the reality of which is really for those who believe in them. In any event TNT achieved its purpose and had no justification beyond 1947 when two new territorial nations emerged... so I am atleast not wedded to any such idea ... as you allege me to be. Given that the whole world is moving towards a supra-nationstate model, the indiviuality of a citizen is what matters, and the question of identity has become as personal a matter as religion itself.


Frankly I don`t care whether you laugh at my education or not... frankly I am losing interest in debating with a fella who at one time can condemn what he calls `religio-cultural solidarity` (again an imagined idea) but in the same breath advocates Hindu philosophy as the basis for a multicultural society .... not very consistent are we ? ... You are as contradictory as the Islamic fanatics we are fighting here in Pakistan.


Instead of convincing me (who believes in secular nationalism and is a Pakistani before he is a muslim) of your imposed Hindu philosophy and your diatribes against `religio-cultural solidarity` try explaining it to a fellow Indian Vertex... who with good logic is declaring himself a Muslim first in post #158 .... what do you say to that?


-YLH

PS: Ballu I see that you have taken to more name dropping and verbosity. Still other than personal attacks about my education or lack thereof you haven`t given any concrete arguments about anything.... Yes I confirm I have read Salman Rushdie and many other heretic muslim writers including my other favorite Ibne-Warraq... I have read Shame, Satanic verses, Midnight`s children and Imaginary Homelands...

Your shamelessness is visible by the way you are distorting my words... and deliberately trying to pose as a victim. Stick to the arguments ok?

You are an incredibly insecure person.