Blasphemy

#190 by AlephNull on April 25, 2004 6:14pm PT

I must accept that your assessment of my position has been most fair. Thanks! Looking forward to see more of your posts.

#191 by Mantolives on April 25, 2004 6:42pm PT

More Oink! Oink ! by YLH.

I can only laugh at your education man! I have recommended not only Indian Philosophy but a whole lot of Ancient Greek Philosophers, Deconstructionists, Post Structuralists, Modern Atheist Indian Philosophers and heretic Muslim writers to you. Can you confirm whether you have read any of their original works (and not passing references). What are you trying to prove- that just because I hold some portions of hindu philosophy in high esteem that you want to shout this to the board Pakis and declare me as a heretic and a blasphemer? I think you really need to study AGAMA SHASTRA (the Philosophy of Idolatory).

Manto #191

{{Like Hindu Gods, an Indian poster has many avtars at one time}}

AFAIK, avatars are sequential incarnations of a godhead. They do not overlap in time and space. Rama and Krishna could never meet - appeared in different yugas. I could be wrong .. am open to correction from more knowledgeable people. Just FYI.

{{that is because unlike them I am consumed by hate to post a 100 posts simply to prove that another person is worthless and all that he stands for is garbage.}}

Are you for real? Care to revisit your verbal diarrhoea on the `Separate Destinies` board, to mention only the most recent example? Never mind your loong history on Chowk in prior avatars? What was that about fairness again?

The Practical implications of the `Hindu Philosophy` on chowk have become very clear to me now. Like Hindu Gods, an Indian poster has many avtars at one time.... One avtar posts utter BS, the other poster seconds it, the third one declares victory... None of what has been said here has any bearing on reality. By name dropping and by exhorting Hindu Philosophy .... one doesn`t shatter `myths`... especially when those myths happened to be well accepted facts. Eversince Ballu Khan started posting here, it was nothing but personal attacks... not once did he put up any counter argument to the ideas that I put up... except `you are tntist islamist`... and `read some Hindu philosophy`.

They are no doubt more than a match for me... that is because unlike them I am consumed by hate to post a 100 posts simply to prove that another person is worthless and all that he stands for is garbage... unlike them I do have somewhat of a life.

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Manto #187

{{I have no cure for a delusional mind.}}

A pity indeed – else you could have begun by medicating yourself.

{{you have shown yourself to incapable of a sense of fairness.}}

You mean because I despise the TNT? According to which arbiter – YLH?

{{I don`t care much for your verbosity}}

Neither do I … I envy the admirable economy with which Ballu Khan characterized and shredded the TNT and its apologists in #162.

{{Neither Sadna nor Ballu Khan make any sense...}}

I suspect, because they treat your most dearly held myths with scant respect. The real reason for your resentment, is not that their arguments make no sense, but that they make eminent sense, strike at the shaky foundations of the very edifice that you so cherish.

{{they are simply motivated by hate and nothing else.}}

Ah, the predictable ‘hatemongering’ whine. Running true to type once again. You have neglected to mention who or what is the object of the alleged hate. Hatred for persons is generally inadvisable. I rather doubt though that either Ballu Khan or Sadna harbours hate for members of the Pakistani awam, or individual Pakistanis that they may run into in the course of their daily life. Ideas are in a different category. I can’t speak for Ballu Khan or Sadna, but hatred for, vocal opposition to, stupid, worthless, harmful ideas is not merely appropriate but something I regard as obligatory.

PS:

Ballu...

While we are on the topic of Salman Rushdie.... I recommend very highly his collection of essays `Imaginary Homelands` .... especially the one that is the title essay... a lot of what you are (and your friends on this board and others) will jump out and bite you.


Ofcourse Salman Rushdie has roughly the same `Cambridge View` of partition that I ascribe to... (if you want I can quote directly from his books and articles) only he is more blatant in blaming it on Gandhi and people like you... (I ofcourse don`t blame it on anyone since my narrative is one of `deliverance` and not `tragedy`). It is a shame the mullahs have driven him away... he was no doubt a great writer.

-YLH

Arjunm 186,

Agreed...

However while not disputing the fact these tendencies cut across all sections of the society, I must point out that the school shown in that documentary was not an elite school. Today almost every school has a jacket and tie as its uniform in Pakistan... it was a lower middle class Matric school. Remember the extremist always speaks louder... I am trying to cultivate a counter-extremism which is as extreme as the extremists... That is why I speak louder than them.




Alephnull,

I have no cure for a delusional mind. Neither Sadna nor Ballu Khan make any sense... they are simply motivated by hate and nothing else. I don`t care much for your verbosity... you have shown yourself to incapable of a sense of fairness. Therefore I don`t have more words and time to waste on you. I am happier interacting with Arjunm, who does not hide his spots, but has a sense of fairness a thousand times more pronounced than your own.

Ballu Khan,

Back to name dropping are we? Have you read Salman Rushdie? I have and he is my favorite author... ever read `Midnight`s Children`?



-YLH

reg all that Oink! Oink! by YLH.

YLH, you are unnecessarly getting worked up by my `world view` which goes contrary to your stupid `minority movement` which you wrongly state as TNT.
Chill out man! Get a Beer! Forget this TNT BS and all this Jinnah demi-God stuff. Read some good philosophy- read Hans Christan Gadamer, read Derrida, read Epicureans and Stoics, read Salman Rushdie, read JS Krishnamurthy, Milan Kundera- get this Jinnah and TNT BS outta your system. If you think any other book or philosophy apart from that contained in Jinnah`s speeches are useless- then I can only pity your intellectual honesty. We will cross our swords again on the issues- including your favourite thesis on Jinnah - I promise! Let us cut out this slinging match because you would curse yourself if I were to roll up my sleeves and pull out all those abuses!! Till then chill out AND sign up the frking PETITION!!!!!!

Cheers!

Manto #179 - #181

No you haven’t called me a ‘Hindutvist’ yet – you may, soon enough. As for that request for ‘fairness’, let it apply to everybody, beginning with you..

Your version of ‘Hindutvist’ is an idiosyncratic personal definition. It doesn’t quite match the definition of ‘Hindutvadi’ in India, and it is patently obvious that the two named recipients of your ‘Hindutvist’ label are emphatically not Hindutvadis as commonly understood in India. What is most interesting is the way you imported that business about ‘the rest of the subcontinent’ and ‘preaching violent hatred against … neighboring countries of India’ into your definition. That, together with some very ‘creative’ interpretation of other peoples’ posts, is your only hope for making your label stick.

I went back and read Ballukhan’s posts on TNT/Jinnah spanning three or four boards. I must say he is most articulate and has repeatedly hit the nail on the head, skewering your precious TNT and Jinnah in the process. I completely endorse his #162 on this board (in addition to a lot of his other posts on TNT – I especially enjoyed that delicious satirical riff ‘The Gurdaspur Truth’ on the ‘Separate Destinies’ board).

It is fairly clear that Ballukhan`s attack on TNT and characterisation of Pakistani elite agenda is what really got your goat, and not some alleged ‘imposing his versions of Hindu … teachings on everyone …’ or ‘preaching violent hatred against non-Hindu minorities’. Ditto with Sadna – in these two you’ve found adversaries who are more than a match for you, have a far wider range, have seen right through you, don’t hesitate to make their opinions plain.

As for the complaint about ‘preaching hatred’ … it is a favourite recourse of Pakistani elite ideologues on this board. It is very often referred to instead as ‘hatemongering’. What is typically under attack when that whine makes its appearance, is not the life and limb and well-being of voiceless poverty-stricken common Pakistanis. Rather, it is the tender sensibilities, the concocted history, the delusional worldview, and most of all the material interests of the Pakistani ruling elite.

It is a bad idea to nurture hatred for individuals except for the most irredeemably criminal. It is right and proper to attack – satirise - ridicule - ideas, philosophies, and habits of thought that lead ultimately to avoidable human suffering. TNT and the underlying idea of religious identity as the primary basis of human solidarity is as stupid an idea as any I’ve seen and richly deserves to be beaten into the ground.

Re. My last post: Replace `Hindutvadi` by `Hindutva-vadi`. Mea culpa.

This is a post by dost-mittar from another Board- but relevant to the topic.

#63 by dost-mittar on April 23, 2004 8:01pm PT
``These ``Noam Chomskies of Pakistan`` have forgotten that `Chomskian courage` lay squarely in bold attempts to understand the reality of political processes - even if it meant confronting the powerful. But who is the powerful, the mentor, and the financier in the case of Pakistani Noam Chomskies? Who is rewarding the so-called courage? I leave this question to the readers``

It does not require much courage to be a Noam Chomsky in the U.S or an Arundhati Roy in India. They will be criticised by many and lionised by some; despite such criticisms, they are able to charge hefty fees on the lecture circuits and for book advances to say things that they want to say. Can this happen in Pakistan? In case you dont know the answer, read the article on Blasphemy to find out what happens to people in Pakistan who say things that are not popular.

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Solitude
He has pointed out that only 10 people have signed the petition for abrogation of blasphemy law. It is not because the people do not want abrogation of this law or are afraid of signing it due to repercusions it might have but due to the fact that the law actually is a mild manifestation of the madness which it wanted to control somehow. It is the `Ilamdeeni` culture of whih it is only a milder manifestation which is requred to be faught against and eradicated. This law, however, failed to legalize the madness as people charged under it were killed in jail and even some of those who were acquitted were not spared. What can government do in this regard when Gen. Musharraf had to withdraw his suggestion for a minor amendment in the procedure of registering cases under the law when he was a mighty Chief Executive. So it is not a legal battle you have to fight to eradicate this menace but to challenge the root cause of this madness. Here I copy an English translation of the Hadees which forms perhaps the main basis of this law:-

Sunnan Abudawud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Now think whether you want to rvive this law by abrogating the Blasphemy law. Incidently this Hadees also provides the basis for the `Karo kari` also.

Alephnull,

A bit of fairness... please. You and I have had a number of arguments... Have I called you hindutva or Hindutvist?

Look at what Ballu Khan is accusing me of? Trying to put Islam above all others... while informing me of the greatness of Hindu Philosophy.... which according to him all people of the subcontinent, whether Muslim christian or Hindu should read. If you can`t see the contradiction... then what can one say ? It was only after Ballu Khan so shamelessly started calling me `TNTist-Islamist` that I called him a Hindutvist... which he certainly is.
Your claims are wrong and arrogant.... I called Sadna a Hindutvist because she was generalizing about all Pakistanis ... and I can prove it.



Perhaps your national alleigance has blinded you as well.

-YLH

PS: The defining characteristic of a Hindutvist as I have described often time before is :


1) Anyone seeking to impose his or her own version of Hindu Philosophy and Hindu teachings on everyone in India and the rest of the subcontinent


2) Preaching violent hatred against the non-Hindu minorities, or against neighboring countries of India.



Ballu Khan is doing both.


I challenge AlephNull to go back and see who called who what and when?


Islamist:

Anyone disagreeing with Ballu Khan (and His allies) on the subcontinent`s partiton and history, anyone not as learned about the Hindu Philosophy as Ballu, anyone who doesn`t give into their one sided view of history is a TNTist Islamist.