Blasphemy

Final Word....

It seems that Indians can do what they please on this site... call anyone Islamist, generalize most blatantly, pass the most bigoted and untrue comments, make the most outrageous analogies, declare anyone who opposes them as an Islamic fanatic but if someone reacts in kind after being provoked, we see people Alephnull breaking wind again and again.


Much has been said about Pakistani textbooks and education .... From my own knowledge they are blatant in their bigotry. Therefore their effect can only be marginal... because the elite doesn`t even go through the local system... but what can one say of the Subtle subversion of Indian education and media? It is a far more effective propaganda machine with long run consequences.


We see the results of this on chowk.

Mantolives #176

{{Perhaps nothing can attest to my position as being the right and justified one more than the opposition I receive on various forums ....}}

{{I am routinely condemend by the Indian Hindutvists as an Islamist, TNTist, etc.... though I must admit that my Indian detractors are fewer than my Pakistani detractors.}}

Manto – your observation above is utterly vacuous. Your common practice is to label your Indian adversaries as ‘Hindutvists` – irrespective of their actual opinions towards ‘Hindutva’. As far as I can make out, the defining characteristic of a ‘Hindutvist’ as defined by you, is not sympathy, or opposition, or even indifference, to `Hindutva’ – it is simply an Indian disagreeing with Yasser Latif Hamdani, or displaying thoroughgoing contempt for the putrid TNT, or showing inadequate reverence for YLH`s heroes lead by the Great Jinnah, or in other ways riding roughshod over YLH’s tender sensibilities. Nothing less, nothing more.

This habit by the way is hardly unique to you – it is a common though not invariable practice among elite Pakistanis across a range of age groups and is routinely observed on Chowk. Depending on their linguistic sophistications, they term their Indian opposition `Hinduvtas`, `Hindutvas`, Hindutvists`, etc. etc. ad amusem. You are simply running true to type.

Perhaps nothing can attest to my position as being the right and justified one more than the opposition I receive on various forums .... for what I write about Partition, Pakistan, Islam, Hinduism, and Secularism...

I am routinely condemned by the Islamists Pakistani and otherwise ..as a Hindu, Islamophobe, blasphemer, one of the two signs of apocalpyse, the `goo-chaater` of the west, the secular fanatic....


I am routinely condemend by the Indian Hindutvists as an Islamist, TNTist, etc.... though I must admit that my Indian detractors are fewer than my Pakistani detractors.

-YLH

Ballu Khan,

Do you always assume something like this about someone who you don`t know? How do you know that I am even a believing muslim... I may or may not be. My views are here for everyone to read... None of my posts have the mention of Islam ... it is your wetdream and nothing else. You on the other hand keep harping about how muslims not just in India but all over the subcontinent should know about the Hindu Philosophy... which I think I do better than a number of individuals here. Yet your attitude is Hindutva pure and simple (that all Muslims of Sub continent should know and conform to the hindu philosophy) You keep talking about TNT blah blah... shows your narrowmindedness, and poor reading comprehension, nothing more. All that you have said is true of you and not of me You are reading all other philosophies to understand Hinduism... and that much is apparent. Everything other than your own ideology is one big blob... Pakistan= TNT=Islam= sharia.... this is your understanding ... and this is the understanding of your former pre-partition allies the Mullahs. None of those four things are equal to each other ...


What I do or don`t believe is for everyone here.... Those who have followed my letters/Articles/posts here or any where knows that I only stand for one thing ... I have only one axe to grind... Equal rights for all Pakistanis regardless of their religion, caste or gender. Now how I could be accused of all that you have accused me... only the creator knows...





rsidhar,

Shameless ... thats all I have to say to you. You know where I stand on what ... still you chose to gang up with this maniac .


I might be well aware of the debates of duality, and non-duality... I think I have read enough of Hinduism and Buddhism (in school in Lahore BTW) to know the essential differences between Atman, and anatman... and this is not the only religion I have read about... I also have some knowledge of almost any faith of the world whether `eastern` or what is falsely categorized as `western`. I know what I want to know... and I personally don`t think any faith or culture has the claim of being `superior`. Yet the attitude both of you are taking is indicative of the worst form of bigotry... what if I didn`t know of these philosophies... what then ? Do I deserve to die? To I deserve to be attacked in such a shameless manner? This is the Hindutva that is scary... and this is your subtle bigotry that causes the rift between the two major communities in India...


-YLH

PS:

Ballu Khan`s world view proves that his form of `religious multiculturalism` is simply RSS`s Hindutva re-hashed .... this view seeks to place Hindu Philosophy and Hindu Ideology over all else, seeks to impose this idea on everyone in the subcontinent and perhaps the world.

This is fascism pure and simple... no wonder we hear of growing intolerance not just against Muslims but even against Christians and more open minded Hindus... Ballu Khan`s essentially does not seek to convert Muslims and Christians to Hinduism, but seeks from them an assurance that all of them will accept Hindu Philosophy as supreme and superior.


This is not a secular world view... Secularism seeks to separate Church and State... not to place one Church over the other.

#172 by solitude on April 22, 2004 12:44pm PT

sorry I seem to have missed that!

A petition was started to combat this. But guess how many people we have gotten to sign up yet ? a grand total of 10!

So people say that all these ``moderate`` pakistanis know what to do is yak and jab and BS away with ``Brother this is not true Islam`` but deep down inside these people will not sign a petition. I don`t believe it though. Even though the chowk editors won`t put the link to the petition up nor do they care about putting up Dr. Shaikh`s photograph I emailed but I sincerely think they were busy not that they didn`t care.

In case you haven`t noticed :

http://www.petitiononline.com/UN_FREE/petition.html

or click here

Come on guys! sign up and let your voice be heard.

#168 by rsridhar on April 21, 2004 10:58am PT

I doubt he would even know about batata-puri.

#165 by Mantolives on April 21, 2004 8:46am PT

This is what living in a multicultural and multi-religious society means- you become broad minded and open to what Gadamar calls `Fusion of Horizon``- you become open to other points of view and disparate ways of life- you do not belittle sub-altern cultures just because your culture is the dominent one. You read more of other philosophies and history in order to understand Islam better. But all this goes over your bigoted understanding. To that extent I find you closer to the puritan fanatics in Pakistan and the RSS knickerwalas who seek uniformity in the political and cultural order in the name of TNT and Islam. I can see you wollowing in your TNT hovel for quite some time. That is sad!!

fianl word-

And thanks to the Indian Constitution I do not have to be worried about the charge of blasphemy that you certainly would have put on me for recommending you to read hindu philosophy.

re: Romair`s last post

``The reason I have an issue with the BJP version of it is, that it is directly state supported. And even organized by the state. With the leaders gaining benefits within his own party, due to the violence. This is different, and perhaps unprecendented in South Asia.``
Different yes. Unprecedented, perhaps NO.
There was one more leader who gained by hindu-muslim violence. He helped create a country out of violence (i know, i know. He had all the good intentions). And that country is still mired in violence and exports terrorism all over the world.
The country: Pakistan.
And the leader? You guessed it right, Romair.
M.A. Jinnah.
Sridhar

re: #156 by ballukhan
Our good friend Mantolive knows all about Jinnah. He is so passionate about him that i guess he dreams of him at night (not a good thing for a newly married guy!).
Advaita! You got to be kidding. Our good friend does not know Advaita from Batata-Puri.
Sridhar

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162, 163

Again deliberate ofbuscation... by a jingoistic Paki-Basher... and nothing else.

I didn`t start the debate on TNT... I had my say on Blasphemy, a law against which I am fighting while living in my country. However when somebody else started making statements, I did respond as is my right.

This thread died a week ago... the only reason it is kept alive is because you want to prove that you are superior to all Pakistanis ... now you will take out all sorts of tangents and make all sorts of intellectually shallow comments, because you really don`t have any real arguments...


And when that doesn`t work , you will lecture us on the superiority of Hindu Philosophy. I see far more similarities between you and the BJP/RSS goons... hate Pakistan, and preach Hindu philosophy. This `sham` religious multiculturalism is nothing but a modern avtar of fascism of the RSS. You are the only one rehashing it, and you project it on others.

# 152 by Romair
Romair is at it again. I mean, myth making. So, we are being told: Shia-Sunni violence is not so bad as it is terrorism based not community based. Try telling that to the family of doctors who lost their lives in Karachi just because they were Shias.
Terrorism is what grips Pakistan today. So, this idiot is saying that terrorism is O.K.

He then steps into unchartered territory by creating another theory: Terrorism in India is state sponsored!
Hey idiot.
Terrorism in India is not one kind. The Naxalites in Andhra Pradesh are very different from Kashmiri terrorists who are very different from the moditva type terrorism that Gujarat witnessed.
The first 2 are not state sponsored. The last was certainly aided and abetted by Gujarat Statte with the central BJP cadre looking the other way.
This has been debated freely and fairly by Indian media and idiots like Romair have nothing new to add.
The good news for terror victims is that Justice is alive in India, as the new Supreme Court ruling in the so called ``Best Bakery case`` shows.
Url for Romoron`s viewing pleasure (i know the idiot is never going to read it):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/south_asia/3619079.stm
Sridhar

Ofcourse I can see the difference in details between the ex-Congress Muslim Leaders and the RSS Knickerwala Hindutva- but I am also seeing the similarities which are more evident in terms of their basing the solidarity between humans on some pre-existing religio-social similarity between humans.
This is what YOU fail to see- the fascistic foundations of Pakistani military dictatorships in last 50 years resulted from the seeds sown by the TNT to which you prescribe with great alacrity. Now, in a changed global postion on theocracy and terrorism you are acting as an apologist for the old Paki feudal order and want to re-hash TNT as a `sophisticated minority movement` without explaining what that minority movement implies- after all minorities exist peacefully with all other sub-minorities and the sub-sub-minorities of all flavours globally without seeking a ``partition`` from the other groups- (notwith standing the fact that sometimes the majority in a particular state and a regional context become minority in a national or a global context)

I would not let this thread be hijacked any more- there are plenty of threads on the issue of TNT and its theocratic and religious bearings elsewhere. I do not want to waste time on that again- Yes! in case you still feel more needs to be thrashed out we would cross swords in an appropriate context.

And this distasteful excercise of comparing the riot murder figures non-chalantly shows the type of rabble rousing that YOU indulge in- acting like a frking teenager who compares the number of frogs he has killed in the neighbourhood pond with his friend. You end up exposing your role as an apologist for the existing feudal elites whose historiography seeks to influence the Pakistani middle class to re-affirm their faith in the exisiting power equilibrium between military-feudal-mullah-beaurocratic elites.
Since dost-mittar has personally interacted with you and is aware of your social position in the Paki society I leave the final assessment of you on him.