Blasphemy

dost-mittar #110: ``Romair is also not quite correct in saying that Jinnah would have hanged Modi. I am not aware of even a single Thanedar being demoted in Panjab let alone the Chief Minister being ``hanged by the balls`` as that province witnessed probably the most complete ethnic cleansing in the world history under Jinnah`s watch``

This was in no way the most complete ethnic cleansing in world history. You are greatly exxagerating. The ethnic cleasing under Hitler, in Rwanda, etc. were much worse, and were planned, as opposed to being spontaneous.

Secondly, the ethnic cleansing that took place, occured under the watch of the British. British were the occupying power, and they should have organized the affairs much better. Pakistan and India barely had their borders sorted out, much less their security forces and police.

Most of all, if you want to include Jinnah under it, you need to include Nehru and Gandhi also. In fact Nehru, moreso, since he was the one who refused to support a federated India, knnowing fully well that ethnic cleansing would occur. Jinnah and Gandhi and British had agreed to a solution that would have avoided ethnic cleansing.

Basically you are suggesting, that if a Chief Minister of a province in Pakistan, systematically organized a killing session against 2000 Hindus in Pakistan, and encouraged all govt. agencies to support it, as a part of his election campaign, he would have been supported by Jinnah. Or at least not demoted by him.

Your premise for this argument is that Jinnah did not demote a thanedar for incompetence during the partition. Quite a stretch of a comparison, if you ask me.

What to talk of Jinnah, such an individual would not even be supported by any of the subsequent govts. in the history of Pakistan. Pakistan does not have a history of state sponsored or supported communalism like Gujrat. If you can name a few incidences, I am all ears.

Notice, I did not compare Modi to Nehru, though. Because Nehru (nor Jinnah nor Gandhi) did not organize the ethnic cleansing. It occurred as an independent phenomenon. Could they have managed it better. I don`t know. Maybe.

In Modi`s case, it was not an issue of mismanagement. It was an issue of initiating and organizing it. I am not asking for the constable on the street in Gujrat, to be hung by his balls. I am blaming the guy who deliberately initiated it. If any Chief Minister were to initiate something like this, even today, in Pakistan, he would be tried. In fact, Azam Tariq of SSP was in jail because of this. Even though he gets elected as an MNA. The Supreme Court had to get him out of jail, and let him assume his MNA position. I would not blame Vajpayee for Gujrat either, had he hung Modi by his balls. But he didn`t. He promoted the guy. Knowing fully well that Gujrat occured not because of Modi`s incompetence, but as a specific BJP ploy to gain prestige.

There is a big difference.

You can make a valid analogy if you can provide an example of Jinnah promoting or not taking any action against a political leader deliberatly taking the same action as Modi. Modi`s actions are unique, because they are based on the ideology of RSS and VHP. They are not the by-product of a freedom movement, a partition, or even suppression of a freedom movement.

The closest comparison you could make is Bhutto becoming the PM of Pakistan, despite assisting in the initiation of killings in Bangladesh. Or an Indian general getting promoted for suppressing Kashmiris. Or an American general getting promoted for acting ruthlessly in Iraq. But even those comparisons would not be accurate to what was done by Modi.

I would go to the extent of saying that Modi`s actions are unique, at an international level. And BJP promoting him is even more unique. They make things like the Blasphemy law, look like a tea party. Jinnah, surely, would have acted against anyone using the Blasphemy law. Why in the world would he not act against anyone doing what Modi did? I am sure Nehru and Gandhi would have acted also. As would have Sonia Gandhi and Laloo Yadav etc..

Romair. .
please note that dost-mittar did say `under jinnah`s watch. .` there was a great amount of ethnic cleansing done under jinnah`s watch. .so much that some still cannot talk about it. we are speaking of 1947, not rwanda or hitler.

if you are going to write long painful posts and expect someone to read them, perhaps you could also read what some of us have to say a little more carefully. : )

#113 Romair

THe relationship between Jinnah`s ``Direct Action Day`` and Modi`s ``Gaurav Yatra`` is deep and direct and compelling. No amount of sophistry and convoluted logic can change that.

And, yes, many other people were also ``enablers`` and pushed both parties in that direction. But both are responsible for having looked away while their supporters indulged in mass murder of innocent people. Nothing can ever change that simple fact.

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ref: naqshbandi`s post #94

......... scary !

Dr. Younus Shaikh

Welcome to Chowk.


Shiraz

You should glean the wisdom of another guy here who calls himself ijaz_gul or something equally silly.

The problem with Pakistani minorities is that they have been either eliminated or completely dhimmized. Instead of spending their time fighting and protesting they can`t get over their incessant bouts of apologizing and applauding. Probably that`s their best option, since they matter so little.

#108 by HP on April 15, 2004 10:24am PT

Actually Naqshbandi is just the messenger why don`t you take issue with the people who actually KNOW Islam UNLIKE the Mullah-come-lately that you and Romair are pretending to be.

The article that Naqshbandi bravely posted was written in a liberal spirit of Islam. It did not go into gory details of the assassinations carried out by the Prophet and his Sahaba. The victims included female poets who were killed in front of their babies and geriatrics (100+ year old poets and writeres of Arabia).

The cowards who refuse to look into their own religion and face up to the devices and deeds of their revered prophet are out here attacking the one man who KNOWS what he believes in and is not ashamed to proclaim it in public. Why don`t you run back to your Toyota Land Cruiser and TALK some more about how the Mullahs are raping your arse :)

The ``context`` and the translations by Romair and Co. are laughable to say the least. Who will you delude with this ? Yourself ? For how long will you delude yourself ? Maybe you can shave your beard and wear a suit till your death (if there isn`t an Islamic gov. that forces you to do otherwise) but what about after that ? People who have tried to reform Islam have tried it for 1400 years and the religion WILL not change. It will mutate and become inactive for a brief amount of time and then it will bounce back with all the viscious and bloody violence.

The relief you have is in using reason! Use your brains and have courage and look to reason and books (not just ONE book) but look to all human knowledge and science for the ailment of your ills (it cures you of many other ills it can help alleviate the other pains too! if it doesn`t then join the ranks and look for the cure!) Here I have offered an alternative. Now you can stop riding the fence if you dare. Stop keeping one foot in the door. Join the ranks of the civilized and developed world or take your chances with a man who lived in the 6th century and used all bloody means to justify his ends.

#106 by nooralain on April 15, 2004 9:17am PT

My dear Ms. Nooralain, I apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings. I did not mean to make it sound so harsh. I am certain Patrick does good and great thing for his fellow Christians but I was presumptiously chastising him for not doing enough (considering the kinds of things he says to defend Muslims/ Islam).

I am not a Christian but neither am I speaking on behalf of Muslims when I say that the Christians of Pakistan are a gentle and noble people.

Naqsh,

Quran refers to blasphemy in several places and instructs believers to avoid company of those who blaspheme. This is what a level-headed dude would do anyway ... whether he believes in Quran or not.

4:140 And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah`s communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse ...

Then again ...

6: 68 And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people.

Later, in the end of chapter 13 ... the Prophet is commanded that if people claim you are not a messenger, refer the matter to Allah.

Replacing ``curse in this world`` ... with ``killing of that person`` ... is senseless. If this is how one interprets a document, a clause, a code ... anything can be twisted to mean anything. Words will cease to have meaning ... and human communication will inexorably go to the dogs.

Why blame Falwell ... when Muslims themselves portray Muhammad as an egoistic, blood-thirsty lunatic?

solitude,

yarr...you still having issues?

So, this is the trick is it...find someone with the most controversial position, and despite a rather reasonable critique of the position (as in Romair`s reply), you simply support them because it furthers your agenda.

I like that...take an ad-hoc union of the hardest views possible, treat it as exemplary and tout it as ``true`` Islam. Wow...what a trick! Gig`s up...so you can relax now.

Calm...calm...there, isn`t that better?

#121 by solitude

Hey don’t take off on me!

You did not even read my post. Here are some quotes from there please tell me where am I supporting those stupid blasphemy Laws.

Quote:
Naqshbandi! Hate to say this but your post makes it look like that the prophet was running some underground enterprise rather than promoting a religion. #108 by HP

I think you represent a face of Islam that is brutal and repressive and the same face is represented in the Blasphemy and Huddood Laws in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. #108 by HP
Unquote

I just reproduced some of Naqashbandi’s quotes for reference. I don’t subscribe to them.
Please take your post back-:)

#124 by vertex on April 15, 2004 3:05pm PT

I am sorry to say but if you think Naqshbandi is hard line then you are wrong. Have you read the kinds of things he writes ? He is well read unlike some of the moderate Muslims.

So I expect him to be much more liberal than the average fundamentalist / terrorist.

The problem comes when the white-washers come into the equation. Romair himself stated that though Islam maybe wrong we have to counter the arguments of the religious from within the religion. This has been tried since the past 1400 years and it has not worked. One of the main tenets of Islam is ``Al yaomo Akmaltu Lakum Deenakum Wa Radaith Lakum Al Islam a Deena`` (Those who understand and recognize this verse ought to know that it says `today I have perfected your religion and made Islam your way of life``)

Islam is supposed to be perfect reform is waste of energy. Instead I say to Romair, you are a man of reason join us! join the other scientists and rationalists and it will make much more of a difference then trying to deflect arguments of the Mullahs. Civlized people like Naqshabandi will give arguments but the other Mullahs will come at you with RPGs and AK 47s. This is no time for argument over what is true Islam and how to re define Islam and how to defend Islam.

Islam is not under threat ! it is the poets and writers and the common people who need our help more. People like Yunus Shaikh and the battle is against Blasphemy laws . The path is not arguing our way out of a fundamentalist interpretations of Islam - sign the petition that we have going

http://www.petitiononline.com/UN_FREE/petition.html

or click here

and then forward it to your friends and then go to some dorm room and argue as much as you want. Just do something about it please. There is a petition asking for legitimization of Hizbollah and Hamas and they have more signatures than this petition!

Its tragic if I could only prevent myself from laughing!

``While praising President General Pervez Musharraf for his liberal and secular steps, and for his courageous fight against Islamic jihadi terrorism, I appeal to him to curb this menace of Islamic Mullah terrorism: the abuse of Pakistani Islamic blasphemy laws. ...``
//////////////

It is sad, but true that your cal;l for change to blasphemy laws will not be heard. Pakistan army is for the ``jihad of god``, that is its motto, it marches to the yells of ``allah hooo``, and all that the army of pakistan has done to hunt down the jihadic killers is only to preserve it self, from being bombed out by the yanks. You should also recall tha the chehnitan fund collectors in pakistan were kicked out only when russia siad that the bombing will start shortly.

Only hope of change in blasphemy laws is when pak army is likely to be destroyed. When you call for change in blasphemy laws, look at the photo in the jail offices, and ask `` pakistan ka matlab kya`` and if you cannot get a prompt answer go home and in privacy burn a photo.

romair: to think you understand islam better than those who have dedicated their lives to it is just hubris and delusion on your part. the author of the book whom i quoted from lived in muslim spain about 1000 years ago. at that time islam was at its peak as a civilisation. so muslims were not apologists as they were the temporal superpower too (like america is today). qadi iyad al maliki was not only a great scholar steeped in islamic learning but also a practising judge (hence his title of qadi). remember, `the ulama are the heirs of the prophets`. the respect and honour of the Beloved Prophet alayhisalatuwasalam is the heart and soul of Islam and it is non-negotiable. ``Abru yi maa zi naam i Mustafa ast`` (Iqbal). This has been the judgement of Islam since its first day. It has always been the way of the necharis, hypocrites and kafirs to attack islam by directing attacks against our Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. The reasoning is simple: once you can remove this love and honour from the hearts of the Muslims the rest will be easy! Alhamdulillah, the ashiqan e Mustafa are still in a majority throughout the world....

the jews are cursed cos they killed some prophets sent to them by Allah and disrespected others. That is why Muslims will never tolerate any insult to our Prophet. The actions of the Sahaba are examples for us to follow for they were the best of all Muslims.