Blasphemy

godot #39: ``Actually, a better example is Algeria, another Muslim country...look what happened there...Pakistan needs to learn that lesson well...and quick.``

Yes. And it is happening all over other Muslim world. Muslim socieities will always have political groupings of Islam and secularism. So far they have been ruled by the secular side. Now the Islamic side is emerging. Dividing the societies along these two lines is as dangerous as dividing the society along ethnic lines. Once the division occurs, there is no going back.

This is one of the reasons why I have always opposed those on this site, who try to push their Islamism and/or Secularism as the only rule for Pakistan. They don`t realize that their efforts will produce a violent backlash, from the other side. Pretty soon a situaiton will be reached where Islamists will oppose anything the secularists say, regardless of how much sense it makes. And vice-versa. This will create a situation where both groups will be able to get away with murder, while still being able to hold onto their respective followers.

Successful societies need to learn to take everyone along. And successful leaders need to learn to do what the population wants. Not try to shove their own agenda down the population`s throats. A successful Pakistani leader will be the one who can take both the Islamists and the secularist along. Not one who tries his/her best to destroy the other.

The Blasphemy law should be removed. This removal should be supported by everyone in the society, and it should not be turned into a battle cry of the secularists or the Islamists. Unfortunately, what will happen is that when one group sees it being opposed by the other, they will automatically take the counter position, due to the divisions that have appeared between secularists and Islamists.

The worst thing that could happen to Pakistan is to turn into Algeria or Egypt or Iran or Iraq (or Turkey) - societies which are highly, and in some case militantly, divided along religious and secular lines.

Naqshbandi #45: ``though i support the existence of blasphemy laws in principle--they are a part of shariah law-``

Could you highlight whose Shariah they are a part of? Can you name any incidence in Prophet Muhammad`s life, where someone was prosecuted due to blasphemy? Also could you point me to some Quranic verses which justify such a law? Not verses from ulema, but from the Quran.

When I was in third grade, we were taught a story about a lady who repeatedly used to throw trash on Prophet Muhammad`s head (I always wondered whether that was a true story). I cannot recall how the story ended? Do you recall what Prophet Muhammad did to her? Did he try her for blasphemy and sentence her to death?

Abey Hamid, you need new material.

nazarhayatkhan #47: ``The trouble lies with the political Islam in vogue in the country. No one clearly takes it head on. Everyone is scared and apologetic.``

The reason no one takes it on is because they are afraid they will lose their votebase. PPP has pushed it quite a bit. The Ahmedi case being a good example. Benazir, herself, walks around with a tasbeeh. Not to mention the fact, that her govt. created the Taliban (according to Ahmad Rashid). I have no problem with people walking around with tasbeehs, but they should not be doing it for political purposes.

This is another reason why I don`t think Pakistan is ready for democracy. All the non-religious parties really have no credibility left. Primarily because they are too corrupt, and too undemocratic. And because their followers are too fickle. They switch sides very easily. The maulvis parties hardly ever have anyone switch sides. They know what they want, and are in it for the long term.

Pakistan is slowly becoming a conservative society, after being run by non-religious groups for four of its five decades. Now, this has resulted in all the political parties moving in the conservative direction also. The same thing has happened in India. India`s whole political space has moved quite a bit to the religious side, including Congress. In fact, this phenomenon has occured in India quite a bit quicker than in Pakistan.

POLITICAL ISLAM WHICH INFACT IS POLITICAL EXPLOITATION OF RELIGION FOR SEEKING LEGITIMACY AND PERPETUATING RULE OUGHT TO FALL IN SOME CATEGORY OF BLASPHEMY TOO. WHAT ARE YOU COMMENTS?

Romair,
Yes the patriotism gets the better of us. Christians are discriminated and no matter how loyal and efficient, can get nowhere near what is called the ESTABLISHMENT. THEY ARE THOUGHT NOT TO POSSES THAT STRAIN OF OBJECTIVES, MINDSET AND IDEOLOGY THAT MAKES A PAKISTANI TO HANDLE SENSITIVE ISSUES.

IF YOU HAVE FOLLOWED MY ARGUEMENTS ON VARIOUS ISSUES ON CHOWK, YOU WOULD REALISE THE WAY I THINK. HOWEVER, DESPITE BEING ACCESIBLE, MY TALENTS GO WASTE. THE COUNTRY OR THE ESTABLISHMENT COULD HAVE MADE BETTER USE OF THEM.

YES, I AGREE THAT THE ARMED FORCES ARE PERHAPS THE MOST TOLERANT. PERHAPS ITS A HANGOVER OF THE COLONIAL TIMES AND WOULD CHANGE. IT IS ALREADY CHANGING ON THE PERIFERY.

Well Mussaraf has taken some tangible steps. He has reintroduced the joint electorate, but made it a MENNA BAZAR for big political parties. He hold an annual Christmas dinner for Christian elites, which is a noble gesture. With his special background of St. Patricks and FC College, he understands the Christian point of view. However, he alone cannot change everything and has to depend on the establishment.

Yes the patriotism gets the better of us. Christians are discriminated and no matter how loyal and efficient, can get nowhere near what is called the ESTABLISHMENT. THEY ARE THOUGHT NOT TO POSSES THAT STRAIN OF OBJECTIVES, MINDSET AND IDEOLOGY THAT MAKES A PAKISTANI TO HANDLE SENSITIVE ISSUES.

iF YOU HAVE FOLLOWED MY ARGUEMENTS ON VARIOUS ISSUES ON CHOWK, YOU WOULD REALISE THE WAY I THINK. HOWEVER, DESPITE BEING ACCESIBLE, MY TALENTS GO WASTE. THE COUNTRY OR THE ESTABLISHMENT COULD HAVE MADE BETTER USE OF THEM.

YES, I AGREE THAT THE ARMED FORCES ARE PERHAPS THE MOST TOLERANT. PERHAPS ITS A HANGOVER OF THE COLONIAL TIMES AND WOULD CHANGE. IT IS ALREADY CHANGING ON THE PERIFERY.

Well Mussaraf has taken some tangible steps. He has reintroduced the joint electorate, but made it a MENNA BAZAR for big political parties. He hold an annual Christmas dinner for Christian elites, which is a noble gesture. With his special background of St. Patricks and FC College, he understands the Christian point of view. However, he alone cannot change everything and has to depend on the establishment.

Ijaz_gul #53: Thanks for your comments.

I would tend to agree. I think there is discrimination against minority religions in Pakistan. Though the biggest discrimination is against Ahmedis. While Parsis are the most successful (even more successful than Muslims) and least discriminated against. The plus side is that Pakistan has never had a streak of militant violence against minorities. That is usually only between Shias and Sunnis.

The military is still the fairest place I have seen, in regard to minorities. This used to exist at all levels of the military. However, now it discriminates at the General ranks, but not at lower ranks. At least, I never saw any. Even the discrimination at higher ranks is more due to civilian pressures than anything else. I have always found it interesting to see old retired Christian war heroes get ordinary treatment as civilians, but the moment they step into the squadrons and units they used to command, they get treated like celebrities.

I think it is due to old colonial traditions, as well as due to the importance of rank. A major is senior to a captain, regardless of religion. It is also due to the excellent track record that minorities have in the military, specifically Christians. In the 65 war, there were six Christian fighter pilots in the PAF. They received five Sitar-e-Jurats. The second highest decorated fighter pilot in PAF history is a Christian, who died in 71.

I don`t think minorities have a political outlet now in Pakistan. PPP was somewhat of any option, but now it has moved to the religious right, also. Musharraf is, thus, their best hope. Christians, interestingly, are now more enfranchised that Muslims in Pakistan, due to the current govts. joint electorate policies. As they can vote for Christian candidates, as well as for Muslim candidates. However, Pakistani politics has moved too far to the religious right, as a whole. It is, unfortunately, going in the same direction as Indian politics. Pretty soon, it will be religious parties (MMA) on one side, and semi-religious parties (PPP, PML etc.) on the other. There really isn`t a secular party in Pakistan, nor a leftist party. Asghar Khan is the only true secular leader in Pakistan (interestingly, another guy from the military). He is the only one, I have seen, who openly declares on TV that Pakistan should be secular. However, no one votes for him. At the moment Musharraf is, thus, the only powerful person, occupying the secular sphere. Once he goes, it will disappear also. He is the most popular leader currently amongst minorities, as you have indicated. However, most of the Pakistan Muslim elite (including secular elite) is gunning for his head (specifically on this site) because he is not enough of an Ata-turk, for them; not realizing that his replacements will be much worse.

I blame the bankrupt and corrupt PPP and PML for the above scenario. They occupy the secular space in Pakistani politics. And due to their feudal and non-progressive nature, have given secularism a bad name. Much like MMA has given Islam a bad name in Pakistani politics. Personally speaking, I think Imran Khan and his party would be good candidates to occupy the religious non-secular sphere of Pakistani politics. While Omar Asghar Khan (marhoom) and his group would have been good candidates to occupy the secular sphere. These are the two guys I would vote for with my eyes closed. Both would look after the minorities, quite well. It is an indication of the backwardness of Pakistani politics that neither has been successful politically, even though they have been exceptionally successful at everything else they tried in life.

Its because of things like this that I am an eradicateur. Bad as the secularist generals in Algeria might be, the FIS will be worse. Why?

Very simple. Poltical islam is a totalitarian ideology that leaves no room for dissent/differing viewpoints. Of course, this is not to say that the Algerian generals are true-blue democrats either. However, the essential difference boils down to this?

For the Islamists, if you are not with them, you are against them and they will hunt you down.

For the generals, if you are not activley against them, they don`t care about you (not that they are going to help you but they aren`t going to hunt you down either).

There is no such thing as the ``acceptable`` face of political Islam because it is a slippery slope/``camel`s nose in the tent`` argument. Once you give in to the hijab, the next demand is segregated schools, or other such nonsense.

So, given these two choices, guess which one is ``better?``

http://www.petitiononline.com/UN_FREE/petition.html

or click here

Will the editors please put the link in the article ? because not everyone will go through the interacts.

Thanks.

#40 by temporal on April 13, 2004 2:57pm PT

Thank you for your help and for being so kind :)

Following is the oath of secular humanist pakistanis. If you disagree with us that is fine - it is still under revision and we are receiving input from our members. Please don`t let our ideas get in the way of the effort against Blasphemy laws and Hudood ordinance:


I affirm the necessity of separation of religion and state.
I affirm that in matters public reason comes before revelation.
I affirm the superiority of a rational, secular, common law over a religious and divine law.
I affirm that I defend and uphold universal human rights.
I affirm to defend scientific truths and knowledge for the sake of knowledge against religious and ethical attacks.
I affirm that after human rights my loyalties lie with my nation.
I affirm that after human rights I shall defend the pursuit of scientific truths.
I affirm that I defend the right of every adult to live with or without religion.
I affirm that I defend the right of every child to live free of indoctrination and physical abuse and mutilation.
I affirm that my country and the general good of society come before my religious affiliation.
I affirm that my country and the general good of society come before my tribe or my family.
I affirm to uphold the secular and classical ideals of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment as developed in Europe and the United States of America.
I affirm to enlighten the third world with the secular and classical ideals of the Renaissance and age of Enlightenment.

You can look at what we are doing nowadays in NYC at :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Secularize_Pakistan/
or here

Romair at # 35:

My observations:

1. Lawyer Iqbal Haider is above PPP in character. Hence, he was not given ticket for the senate seat last time around. Btw, in his famous bill, another senator of PPP viz. Ch. Aitezaz Ahsan had stood by him.

2. I agree with your `humanism` approach as dividing line rather than Islamism and secularism. President Musharraf also warns us falling into bad Muslims and good Muslims trap. Imho, another good approach, which I use as a dividing line, is forces that lead us to economic prosperity versus those obstructing it.

Hence:

a. President Musharraf and his team are pro-economic prosperity by virtue of their track record.

b. MMA has no economic agenda. By virtue of its agenda its anti-economic prosperity.

c. PPP and PML N have failed us in the 90s (twice each) i.e. they have bad track record.

Since we have democracy, Pakistanis may pick what they want - everybody for himself/herself.

plats8 at 38:

You have your answer from Kaurasack at # 44.

It was very unfortunate, what happened with Dr. Younis. These laws of Hudood and Blasphamy must be repealed. I am a muslim and always try to be a good muslim but i am against the mullahs of Pakistan. We are with you Dr. Younus.

Imran Hafeez
Islamabad

sad what happened to dr sheikh -- but even sadder is the standard of comment in response to this article -- most people seem to have no idea how things work in pakistan these days -- saminasha -- u suggested a list of organizations involved in repealing the blasphemy laws -- that`s quite a naive question -- other than the HRCP, which probably gets more than its fair share of its death threats each time it issues a statement on such issues, or the English language press, there isn`t anyone doing any `work` on this -- and then there is someone who has come up with an idea of a petition on this !! noble but quite laughable -- where have you guys been ? i presume most people here live outside of pakistan otherwise they wouldn`t be coming up with such impractical suggestions -- and for the record, musharraf in 2001 toyed with the idea of just modifying the procedure under which a blasphemy case is filed -- he wanted the district magistrate (an administrative post no longer in use in pakistan after the local bodies reforms) to first investigate whether a blasphemy case was even necessary against someone accused of violating the law -- the religious right made such an issue that he had to backtrack -- so, even a procedural change in the law, something which was needed to prevent innocent people from being lynched, was not allowed by the obscurantists -- i am afraid petitions don`t really work in such cases

this article rightly points to the menace of ``Mullaism``. and his case is amongst the many who have been wrongly accused of blasphemy.
it doesnt take sherlocks` brain to connect the statement by the brigradiare and the mullahs` accusation. thanks to the military rule of the all Muslim gen.zia that we are harvesting the fruit of religious fundamentalists.
this article is also an eye opner to those who think that islamic militant fundamentalism is not a threat in Pakistan.

#7 by solitude on April 13, 2004 8:32am PT

I have already started this email chain in India.

Despite all those bootlickers who have enormous contempt for Pakistani citizen`s capability to follow democratic principles I can assure you that Indian Muslims would be part of this movement to secularize Pakistan.