The World Is BUT are We Ready for a New Pakistan?

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arjun at # 72:

You have proved yourself a born jhoota once again. Show me my post where I said that MS is investing US$ 7 bn in Pakistan.

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ahmadzai:

You still have not answered WHY YOU think Pakistan is or is not a Banana Republic. Clearly it is according to every varying context I`ve heard of.

If it is a Banana Republic, then it`s vital to know what the foreign masters really think. Because long-term economi success and stability- the basis for your support- no longer depends on internal forces (they are all destoryed) but on external forces.

Again and again I ask you who draw comparisons with Malaysia, Singapore, Korea etc. They had America fully backing them. There was none of this `Is Malaysia a friend or an enemy?` question consistently asked in quarters of Big B in the manner its being asked of Pakistan.

So if it is a Banana Republic, and the house of Fauj has no foundation on the ground but is being propped up from the outside, then it makes no sense to `let the faujiz do what they want and see what happens`. If one is outside Pakistan, it makes more sense to not do anything rather than support then aid the masters by supporting the puppets of the Banana Republic.

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Rozaiba at # 62:

OK although I don`t think Pakistan is a banana republic, even if we assume it is then suggest what shall we do?

1. Ask 140 million people to commit suicide.

or

2. Ask Pakistanis to give up independence and re-merge with India. If Indians refuse to re-absorb citizens of banana republic, which from all indications it appears that they will, then ask Talibans to take over. If this is not aceptable then at least let Pakhtoons go for Pakhtoonistan, Baloch for an independent Balochistan and so on and so forth.

or

3. Let the current Government work for some time and let us see if the situation becomes better. If not, let us try to vote it out in the next elections.

or

4. The situation is so bad that we should take to streets, start an agitation, and throw out this Government through a popular rebellion.

or

5. Any other approach that you suggest may work better.

``Chowk has a number of intelligence people from both sides. ``

Phew.. for a moment i thought chowk has intelligent people from both sides.scary.. Got to read carefully.

The News today carried the following in its issue of today. Let us monitor coming of this investment in banana republic:

Sikh community to invest $1b in Pakistan

By Aslam Khan

DARBAR SAHIB KARTARPUR, Narowal:- Pakistan will receive a hefty $1 billion foreign direct investment from the World Sikh community. This was announced by the sikh leaders, who had gathered here from around the globe, to celebrate 500th birthday of the second Sikh guru — Guru Angad Dev.

The function was held at Darbar Sahib Kartarpur, located just three kilometres from the Pakistan-India International border in Shakargarh tehsil of Narowal district. The village Kartarpur was founded by Baba Guru Nanik Dev, where he practised sikh religion for 17 years before he passed away. He announced the completion of sikh religion here.

The speakers at the function, held to celebrate 500 years of the second Sikh guru — Guru Angad Dev, who formally completed the language of Gurmakhi script. Dr Pritpal Singh, coordinator of American Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee, unveiled the software and standardised keyboard of the Gurmakhi script. The sikh leaders also announced to establish a state-of-the-art medical college at Nankana Sahib in Sheikhupura.

ironman: you write ``Hey Tahmad, you`re a body builder of sorts. Whats the difference between power lifting and body-building?``

I dont know ironman. Enlighten me, sil vous plait.

PS: I never thought of myself as a body builder (with bulging muscles like the Michelin Man). I just try to stay fit by going to the gym regularly, that`s all.

Romair/Ahmadzai/HE,

Look at these chowk profiles:

(HisExcellency)

I work with computers, play with Design documents, and dabble in political science & history for fun. An extrovert by nature, I find it hard to resist tennis, white-water rafting and skiing on the weekends.

(Ahmadzai)

I hail from a small town near Peshawar, NWFP, although my origin lies in a neighboring country. Although I have worked internationally, people tell me that I retain my strong rustic background jealously. In the spirit of my forefathers, my family and I are constantly on the move, discovering places, meeting people, admiring nature, studying religions. And we keep planning to move yet again.

How difficult is it to tell they`re the same person...(well, if you`re Tahmad, apparently its very difficult!)

- - - - -

I remember reading a DIFFERENT profile for HisExcellency just a little while ago...something about enjoying debating for hours and being a `system integrator` in philly !

Well, the debator parts fits the profile of Dr. Shirin Mazari aka Romair...and the sudden removal of that after the `expose` by Ralphie a little while ago....is a real `chor ki dadhi mein tinka`!!!

- - - -

But really Romair/Ahmadzai, why do I care what you do on chowk??? Your 4000 (total) posts on chowk show that you are dedicated...if nothing else. But the net result of all this effort is a big zero. No Indian on chowk has fallen for your line. So...who cares...?

Obviously you`ve convinced someone in pakistan you`re doing a magnificiant job on chowk. I`ve no intention of maro-ing laat on your paet. Everyone needs a job...

- - - - -

About ironman, I was a big fan of marvel comics and ironman was my favorite. No freak super powers. Just brain power.

Also (you may not know this, being a woman), body builders are often called ironmen (lifting iron weights). I did my share of power lifting. Alas all thats left of those good old days are some medals and press cuttings.

Hey Tahmad, you`re a body builder of sorts. Whats the difference between power lifting and body-building?

Cowasjee is a person, who has known everyone from Jinnah to Musharraf. His article seems to support my thesis that Pakistan has always had dictators - be the military or elected:

``Selective amnesia


By Ardeshir Cowasjee

Those loyal citizens now jumping up and down in zealous indignation at the 17th Amendment to the sacrosanct Constitution of Pakistan and at the foisting upon it of the NSC act, have short memories, extremely short memories. The `violation` of this much-mangled document is nothing new.

The maker of the 1973 Constitution, pseudo democrat president Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, had the singular honour of being the first civilian martial law administrator the world has known. In April 1973 his legislators accepted his Constitution by consensus and it was promulgated at noon on August 14, 1973, a historic date in the history of the unfortunate Republic of Pakistan.

Four hours later, at 1600 hours, as prime minister, Bhutto had his supine hand-picked president, Fazal Elahi Chaudhary, put his signature to a presidential order proclamating ``that the right to move any court for the enforcement of such of the fundamental rights conferred by Chapter I of Part II of the Constitution as may be specified in the order, and any proceeding in any court which is for the enforcement, or involves the determination of any question as to the infringement of the rights so specified shall remain suspended for the period during which the proclamation is in force.``

Twenty-one articles (8 to 28) of the Constitution guaranteed us our fundamental rights. The presidential order effectively deprived the people of ten of these major fundamental rights within four hours of their having been guaranteed. Was this not a violation? Was it not premeditated fraud, duping and deceiving both legislators and people? And what was his purpose? To arrest, the next day, a number of his political opponents and jail them on trumped up charges, and they remained incarcerated until Mard-e-Momeen Mard-e-Haq General Ziaul Haq assumed sole charge of the Islamic Republic.

Bhutto and his acolytes remained in power for some 2000 days during which his Constitution was amended seven times......(http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

#58

no, i am not arjun`s advocate, though i agree with a minute proportion of his remarks NOT levelled against `pakis`. . .i am an advocate for those who are generally slighted as `pakis` as well as those generally slighted as pissdrinkers. go figure. i am an equal-opportunity advocate. if this bothers you, then kudos to you as well.

ahmadzai:

Poverty-alleviation will remain a slow process? Hell, with 18 million MORE under the poverty line, what kind of alleviation is going on?

On Banana Republic: I provided you with a definition of what a Banana Republic is. Do you know of a different definition of a Banana Republic?? Maybe then I could understand WHY the below statement and question to you was `preposterous`.

What do you call a country where the population is falling below the povery line by the millions and where no one is willing to invest and that has absolutely no institutions thereby allowing outside powers to manipulate it at will? That`s right. A BANANA REPUBLIC.

Do you think Pakistan is a Banana Republic? If not, why not?

Yes, though PPP did get the most votes, Musharaf`s total chamchaaz got more. But you failed to defend the accusation people like Imran Khan have made about Musharaf`s Chamchaaz - Musharaf who you hold to be clean, non-corrupt and straigtforward: namely, that Musharaf`s PML-Q chamchaaz are criminals and are only supporting him to save their asces.

Zia was said to be non-corrupt. Ayub was also non-corrupt. So is Musharaf. Musharaf closely resembles Ayub. However, unfortunately, Ayub was far more capable than Musharaf ever will be. And knowing Ayub`s record, that is not saying very much.

Romair/His Excellency:

I think if Pakistan emulates China in terms of `controled Government` stability, we will be better off than the latter, because of:

1. Democracy, no matter in what form, we are better than China and most of Islamic world.

2. Freedom of expression: The media is almost ``Mather-Piddar Awzaad``.

3. Human Rights: Pakistan under President Musharraf is better placed to address and resolve contentious issues.

As regards people stooping down to making personal attacks on Romair, I would not care if I were you.

Rozaiba at # 41:

Thank you and I also enjoy reading posts from you who I consider to be an staunch opposition in the Chowk`s parliament and therefore, keep me busy in confirming from various sources my basis of support for President Musharraf/PM Jamali Team.

Click here to read poll position in last elections. ``The PML (Q) received 7.33 million votes; or 24.81% of the votes polled. The PPP however, had 7.39 million votes; or 25.01% of the total votes polled``. All parties supporting President Musharraf got 35% votes (NDA 3%, MQM 8% plus independents who later joined PML Q). Thus Musharraf supporters won more seats and more votes compared to PPP.

On Poverty:

You are aware that Pakistan was hit by poverty due mainly to a 5 year drought that hit us. The drought hit our agrarian society. Many thousands of people moved into the cities, thereby putting pressure on our resources there. Also, Pakistan was supporting the economy of Afghanistan`s Pakhtoon areas. Poverty alleviation will remain a slow process. No matter how hard we try to boom the economy, the benefits will cascade downwards after a certain lag.

On banana republic:

This would be a shock statement to hear from an American (?) of Pakistani origin (?). This would be an OK statement to come out from the likes of fundoo passive gays like arjuns, jays, mohars, rshridhars, saxenas, etc., but not from you.

Well, from all indications Pakistan is not a banana republic. This is such a preposterous statement that I don`t even want to indulge in a useless debate here.

However, I have absolutely no desire to convince you, because I know where you are coming from. I would only challenge myself on your assertions where I feel the need for myself to do so. Opposition is always good. It keeps you on your toes looking for reasons for your own conviction.

ironman at # 44:

``Same level of english proficiency, same paragraph structure, same tone...even naqshbandi could tell these are teh same person! ``

This is absolutely brilliant.

Just out of curiosity now, your name, how did you get this? Did your folks name you as such on the basis of the matter present in your head or does it allude to a special bio-engineering practice purely invented by and prevalent in your family alone whereby the males use an iron rod instead of, well, the whole world knows what, to impregnate women to get men made of iron?

#48 by Sameem
//... I`m sorry, but I`m generally biased against piss-drinkers. ..//

We kind of knew that already. Good for you.

#48

And yet you serve as an advocate to plead for him. Kudos to you !

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Arjun has his supporters!!!

But Arjun has admitted that he lost his weener and you know what weenerless people do?

They service people at gloryholes and he has admitted to that also.

ironman #52 I always suspected Romair worked for RAW. His real name is General Romairana Nathuvithanamapathanapavan (Director, Chowk Operations, RAW, Delhi). I work for the ISI, and my real name is Lance Naik T. Ahmed (Undercover Agent, Chowk, ISI, Islamabad). The chowk website itself has been created by a supersecret agency belonging to the Government of Fiji (which has plans to take over the world).

How about you? Are you a secret agent as well?

Re: Ironman #52

I`m curious: who do you think are the ``intelligence people from both sides`` on Chowk? Come on! Name the suspects! ;-)

tahmed,

Chowk has a number of intelligence people from both sides. We all know (and expect) that.

Romair`s problem is that he/she/it has written too many reports, thesis and other documentation. Very difficult to change that style.

btw, You`re not a spook, are U?

:)

#48

arjun_m probably drinks mountain spring water or distilled water just like many of us do when we see piss color water coming out of the faucets. as for your general bias against pissdrinkers, that`s fine, but i`m sure that arjun has a general bias toward some who are constantly mired in their own feces as well. funny how that works, isn`t it?

Its all about NATION-STATE. THIS IS A PHENOMMENA OF THE ENLIGHTENMENT, RENNAISANCE AND REVOLUTION.

Countries like Pakistan have to somehow skip RENNAISANCE AND REVOLUTION and move straight to aspects of modernity conducive to our systems of values, society et al.

Pakistan got the state in 1947, but accumalating an approximate of a NATION (domain of social sciences) is still far away. So the experiment at inventing a nation after the creation of a STATE goes on.

Civil society is the most important pillar of the NATION. Civil society in Pakistan has hardly developedand remained in the throes of Elites, Fuedals and what some call the Establishment. The middle class that forms the backbone of the civil society and the only group to challenge the equilibrium is struggling for survival. Its fringes are fast moving below the poverty line. So this potent engine of change is in a limbo beset by disillusionment and fight for survival.

In such a vacum, the rise of primodialism and misuse of religion for political legitimacy are dynamics that set in. If it succeds then might as well say ADIUE to the modern NATION-STATE and move to the caves.

Is this Arjun character a permenant fixture here ? I`m sorry, but I`m generally biased against piss-drinkers.

These are some of my past comments on the socio economic development that could play the instrumentalist role in forging a healthy civil society.

---

Well, I for one feel that the State does not have the capacity to bring a significant difference in the human resource index of Pakistan. I also believe that it is the private sector that has to move in through profitable projects whose income can be used to subsidise education, health and create more jobs.
Overseas Pakistanis and those with lots of bucks within the country can play a significant role in this. Anyone interested can join hands.
Please contact me at ijaz_gul@ yahoo.com

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#6 by ijaz_gul on March 12, 2004 2:21am PT
It is like sucking blood from stones. The tax survey that was carried out in 2000-2001 has resulted in closure of a big chunk of home oriented cottage industry. Most of them have now shut down and import containers etc from China to market cheap goods. Is this not tragic.

General Sales Tax is suppossed to be another name for VAT (value added tax). It is basically meant to monitor the cycling process of the economy and the profits of all buyers and sellers. CBR has converted it into another form of duty. Refunds are extremely cumbersome and nearly 25%of it is paid as bribes to the Sales Tax Staff.

Despite making unusaual allies, the goverment ignored the fact that Riaz Malik was one rare progressive CBR official and a good Chairman of CBR. If anything, he deserved extention in the name of NATIONAL INTEREST.He has been allowed to fade away.

Ishrat Hussain and Dr Ashfaq have much to do with the stability in balance of payments. Being Finance Minister Shaukat gets the credit. he is the dancing horse.

To improve the Human Resourse index, the State can do little. The private sector has to play its role, which it is not.

---

#49 Pakistan under its Ethnic Shadows on November 20, 2003
Well I feel that the geographical entity as a STATE (Pakistan) came easier said than done. It is the psychological approximate of nation, nationhood or nationism, whatever you may call it that is still evolving.

Pakistan has to be seen as an amalgam of various ethnic groups whose roots seldom overlap. The Punjab is largely Matriarchal society, that taking a que from Nazar Khan`s article has produced more romantic heroes than leaders and rulers. Though it has the largest majority, it is also the most flexible and compliant. NWFP is a largely patriarchal society with a very strong sense of tribal identity, though it has always remained at the cross roads of invasions. The sense of being Pathan is very strong and outlives petty tribal differences specially when they have to live outside the frontier. Both Baloch and Sindies (majority are of Baloch descent) are fiercely independent and have their common hero in Mir Chakkar Khan Rind. However they remain in the clutches of the worst type of tyranny in the Sardari system. In some remote areas like NokChah in Balochistan, most people have not seen Pakistan beyond the nearest water hole. On all peripheries, the hold of the tribal and feudal chiefs is final. Somehow I feel that Pakistan`s Mahattir will come from Sindh or Balochistan. I also feel that the word Muhajir is an insult to the concept of Pakistaniat.

However, there is a brighter aspect. All major towns and cities are distinctively Pakistani and there is a very strong sense of the Pakistaniat. This is particularly true of our cricket that has played the most significant role in inculcating nationalism. I have seen kids as far away as Taftan, Amri and Suntser playing cricket and trying to become Imran Khans and Miandads.

Political elites and the Government of Pakistan have thus far failed to transfer the seeds of modernity and modernisation in such areas in particular and rest of the country in general. I wonder, if the state has the capacity to reform the society. It is therefore time for the private sectors to step in for the socio economic development leading to societal fusion. Human resource development at grass roots will usher a new era of complementary cooperation while overriding irritants.

Herein lies the future of our generations.

boys and girls...

i am extremely sorry for not being able to respond to the question shot at me. got myself busy in something deeper. anyone of you who wish to ask anything pertaining to the article or my posts, please do feel free to drop in words at mubakr@hotmail.com

no promises but i shall try the best to respond to the max possible questions.

final words: my cordial appreciation for those who had the gut and ability to use nice words even if they are in worst of the moods...up here or down there in the street...it`s a rare ability...

ironman #44 Actually ALL chowk interactors are just one person. You see, chowk needs to show some good numbers. Our stockholders demand it. But please dont tell them.

You are the first REAL person who has come on chowk. We are grateful. You automatically become our customer of the month. And retroactively, you become our Customer of the Month for the past three years.

We are also proud to learn that our only customer is also a Grammer Expert. In addition to being the Ironman (any relation to Superman or Spiderman??)

Thank you.

hisexecellency: democracy is stupid. military govt good.
ahmedzai: subhanallah, subhanallah, look at the progress
Rozaiba: but but it does not add-up
Romair: great post ahdmedzai/hisexcell..subhanallah
plats8: india blah blah
romair/ahmdezai/hisexcel: (snicker ) we dont want to be beggars
Rozaiba: logic etc
...
yawn

Romair/Ahmadzai/HE,

Behenji, at least change the font/bold/italic...if nothing else...of your various posts.

Same level of english proficiency, same paragraph structure, same tone...even naqshbandi could tell these are teh same person!


(Your posts to self remind me of an amitabh dialogue...``mein aur meri tanhayi...aksar batein kiya kartay hain...``)

His Excellency:

PLEASE comment on these these two statistics that have been posted before:

1) Over 18 MILLION additional Pakistanis have fallen below the poverty line.

2) Foreign Direct Investment- THE ONLY CRITERIA used by third world countries without an industrial base for determining economic growth- has DECLINED by 40 PERCENT from last year.

You happily reveal economic models of CHINA. Others who support Faujiz name MALAYSIA, SINGAPORE, KOREA etc etc.

I would probably not be arguing with you AT ALL IF- IF- Pakistan were indeed copying those models. But we are NOT.

China had not only built an industrial base through a policy of nationaliztion but after the `social capitalism` policies attracted BILLIONS of dollars of investments from the outside and secured American MFN status. Does Pakistan have an industrial base? Does Pakistan attract huge foreign investment? Economist say Pakistan NEEDS 2 Billion a year. Yet, it`s less than a quarter of that and steeply declining. China also has an extremely large supply of cheap labor. Pakistani worker is the most expensive in South Asia- even more so than Bangaldesh. Not only is the worker the most expensive, he/she is also the least educated of the South Asian region. China has nearly a 90% literate population. On top of it all, whereas the Chinese government came in through a popular communist revolution, HOW did Musharaf come in? You and other fauji-lovers CONVENIENTLY forget this. But this is a HUGE factor as it`s a measure of stability and support. Chinese government isn`t a one-man show.

So HOW can you compare Pakistan to China, when Pakistan is deprived of ALL the great factors `neo-capitalist` China had? I mean, I hear supporters of Musharaf aching to compare this era with every other successful country. But I find absolutely NO PROOF that ANYTHING meaningful is being done. Is there is a process of nationalization going on to `help` distribute income and benefits? Has Kashmir been given up as an issue so that we no longer have to spend over HALF the revenues on defense? Has the world decided to pour investment in Pakistan like they did with Malaysia and ASEAN countries because the Americans were freaked out over the Communist?

WHAT MAKES FAUJI SUPPORTERS DRAW THESE INSANE COMPARISON?? At best they sound like wet-dreams.

HisExcellency/ahmadzai: ``The underlying assumption in your argument is that ``stable democratic institutions are synonymous with progress``.....This is a flawed assumption``

I would agree with this wholeheartedly. I think the problem isn`t about supporting democracy. Most people, including myself, support it. The issue is the correct defintion of stable democratic institutions.

In my discussions with various Pakistanis on this subject, I have noticed that people tend to view this issue emotionally, and not practically nor statistically. For example, both of you (HisExcellency, ahmadzai) and I are making the identical argument, with identical logic and identical precedences, premises and views, on this subject. Yet, invariably, there will be emotional individuals who will get into an emotional tirade on my military career. I have still not figure out what that has to do with my support of economics over votes. If either of you were to declare something similar about yourself, the debate would switch to emotionalism also. Instead of arguing the point, individuals tend to argue the person making the point.

This is unfortunate, since emotionalism usually leads to wrong views.

Similarly, there are political groups who are convinced that religious parties are the future. Others are convinced that secular parties are the only future, etc. Some think Army is the future. Once one reaches this state of fanatic devotion, one loses all sight of the ground realities. Due to this, people start putting their faith in theories and concepts and organizations, and not on the results produced by specific organizations and govts.

Some of the misconceptions that exist are as follows:

- Elections after elections will result in the crooks in current politics being cleaned out: This cannot be proven logically. This will only happen if the pre-requisites of democracy are present. Otherwise, elections after elections will only strengthen the hold of the crooks. Everyone agrees that the feudals need to be out of politics. Yet no one can answer the question that if elections will get rid of them, then why in the world are the feudals the biggest supporters of elections. Don`t they know that these will get rid of them? Obviously, they know that this is the best way for them to control the system.

- People prefer voting over economic growth: Such arguments are based on personal beliefs and not on survey results. Every survey I have read on Pakistan, states jobs (economy) to be the most important problem. Democracy is way down on the list. People enthusiastically migrate out of Pakistan to places where they cannot vote (US, Canada, Dubai, Saudi Arabia), because they want better jobs. In fact, this is the first choice of profession.

Hence the general public in Pakistan will always judge a govt. by how it improved the economy. Not by how it got into power. This is why despite, all their efforts, neither the MMA, nor PPP nor PML has been able to launch any agitation against the current govt. I was their when Imran Khan tried to launch one. No one showed up. However, if today the economy tanks, everyone and his grandmother will be on the streets.

- Democracy is an end in itself: Democracy is merely a means to an end. The end being higher living standards.

- A govt. is merely the person sitting on the top: Govts. are never the person sitting on the top. That person is merely an interface of the govt. The real govt. is run by the individuals responsible for the ministries, state instituions, banks, advisory groups etc. The person at the top rarely has the technical knowledge to run these institutions. His/her job is to just appoint the right people in the right place, and give them enough room to operate. Musharraf is only as good as Shaukut Aziz, Ishrat Hussain, etc.

Real democracy involves a lot of factors. Only one of which is a continuous set of elections. The other include a high economic growth, lack of feudal land ownership, a population that has faith in the politicians, political parties that are internally democratic, a certain level of education, free press etc.

True democracy does not exist in a vacuum. And these factors cannot just appear through one election after another. There has to be a practical effort to create these factors. And they will never be created by politicians who are the biggest beneficiaries of the system that needs to be replaced. It requires a whole new set of politiicians. And those politicians cannot come up, until these pre-requisites are establish.

This is Pakistan`s Catch-22. And I am convinced that the only way to break it is through high economic growth - which will only occur in an apolitical scenario. Though not in all apolitical scenarios. Pakistan may now start achieving that. And it should be encouraged, until the pre-requisites of democracy start appearing. At that time, we should support elections after elections. This is the formula that will occur in China. It occured in other places like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Malaysia, etc.

In a few decades, I am convinced China will be more democratic than India or Pakistan. Although it is far less democratic than these two countries today. Because China will have developed a stronger base of pre-requisites for democracy. This is the mistake Russia made. It went for democracy, before economy and other pre-requisites. And has thus been left in the shadows of China. It is one of the most corrupt countries in the world today, with one of the most unstable economies.

I think people should realize that the economy is an issue much more important than the Army, Musharraf, Secular or religious politics, Benazir, or anyone else or any other ideology - including voting. People need to view it as such, and not get bogged down in the inviduals. They will come and go.

ahmedzai:

Good post.

PPP however garnered 25% of the total votes. I believe this is more than even PML-Q who won more seats. I suppose one can argue about this nitty-gritty thing back and forth. But similarly, whereas PML-N won only 14 seats, it attained a larger number of total popular votes than MMA which got 50 plus seats. These jarring discrepency- that one gets MORE votes but FEWER seats can be merely coincidental. Or they could not be.

Under Musharaf, with the PML-Q, Pakistan currently has the filthiest set of politicians. Every other one of them has the National Accoutability Bureau ready to chase them into the prisons were they not licking Musharaf`s asc. Across Pakistan, prisoner-politicians were let lose after making a deal with Musharaf to make sure PPP and PML -N lose. After Imran Khan began to criticize the military (after the referendum) the Military released a prisoner to fight under the PML-Q ticket hoping to defeat Imran Khan.

MMA and the mullahs thrive during military rule. The ONLY beneficiaries of the rise of MMA has been Musharaf- and MMA itself of course. MMA is the Military`s `B-Team`. Despite winning 50 plus seats, the total number of popular votes the combined alliance gained was no more than the last election. Because the religious parties lost seats in the biggest province, I may tend toward dismissing the MMA phenomenon as merely a hiccup- combination of Military favoritism and Afghan war. They lost seats in the Punjab and only won in Pathan or deobandi areas of Pakistan (Karachi). After Maulana Noorani`s demise, there is absolutely no hope that the current partners of MMA will make any inroads outside of their current areas. Only religious leaders like Tahir-ul-Qadri could stand a chance of appealing to majority brelvi-sunni/shia Muslims. But even he despite all the respect he gets is not able to get very far.

I didnt` like the PPP or PML rule of the 90`s either. BUT I support their removal through an electoral process and NOT by Faujiz/establishment. History of Pakistan since inception has shown that the establishment`s worst fear is to have a government complete it`s term and establish a clean transition. Politicians have made mistakes but that is not a justifiable invitation for bureaucratic/fauji meddlesome.

We all disliked the politics of the PPP and PML. However, under Musharaf there is the worst of everything.

What do you call a country where the population is falling below the povery line by the millions and where no one is willing to invest and that has absolutely no institutions thereby allowing outside powers to manipulate it at will? That`s right. A BANANA REPUBLIC.

Do you think Pakistan is a Banana Republic? If not, why not?

My whole argument is not for one or the other party. It is that we should allow a constitutional electoral PROCESS to take place where the various institutions and pillars of the state fight each other out to demarcate their space. No matter how dirty, it is necessary.

This is the ONLY thing Pakistan needs.

And the military is in the way.

plats8 #34
rozaiba #31

The underlying assumption in your argument is that ``stable democratic institutions are synonymous with progress``.

This is a flawed assumption, considering China`s explosive double-digit growth and $44 billion foreign investment per year. Authoritarian China was able to leapfrog democratic India precisely because of sound economic policies, curbs on trade unions, state-control over capital markets, trade-centric foreign policy... and limited political freedoms (which led to a stable government).

Political compulsions prevented Nawaz and Benazir from introducing General Sales Tax, agricultural tax and documentation of the economy. Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz could take these tough but necessary measures with relative ease.Political compulsions also prevented Benazir and Nawaz from confronting the Jehadi forces. No civilian leader could take a tough line on madrassahs, the way Musharraf is doing right now. Musharraf can implement IMF conditionalities without fear of losing power. Benazir and Nawaz had to face countless strikes and protests for accomplishing the same

I am not saying that Musharraf`s controlled-democracy or veiled dictatorship is a perfect system. It has its flaws. It is basically one-man rule, and if that one man happens to be a Zia-ul-Haq, we are all doomed. A veiled dictatorship also lacks transparency.

But this is a system that works. Even PPP and PML-N have sheepishly acknowledged the impressive economic performance of Musharraf. Musharraf may have faltered on his accountability and political reform promises-- but at least on the economy he did deliver.
Most Pakistanis would prefer a strong economy with limited political freedoms... than the other way round. At least in the short to medium term.

This does not mean that democratic forces should just resign themselves to their fate. They have a lot of soul-searching to do. There are a lot of issues on which they need to mobilize public opinion... and scrutinize the performance of Musharraf govt.

INDUSTRIALISATION..IS WAT HAVE BEEN THE BACK SEAT PRIORITY FOR THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENTS SO AS TO BE FEEDED BY THE EXTERNAL PARTIES..TO ENSURE COMPLETING THEIR TENURE..

INDUSTRIALISATION..CONTROLS..THE ECONOMY WHICH WAS EVIDENT IN AYUB`S ERA..ALTHOUGH..EVERYONE..HAS SOMETHING..TO BOAST ABOUT AND SOME TO CRY UPON..BUT OUR NATIONS..GOES..AFTER THE AFTER EFFECTS OF TASHKENT AGREEMENT..

STRESSING..INDUSTRIALISATION..IS WHAT IS THE NEED..OF TIME..TO MAKE EMERGE PAKISTAN..AS SOME SMALL..POWER..AT LEAST NOT THE TIGER..

EVIDENTLY..AND EXPECTANTLY..IT IS SAID..YEAR 2005 IS..CHANGING FATE FOR PAKISTAN..AND FACE OF LATTER TOO..

LORD HELP US ALL!!

Arjun_m #13

---

My thingy seems to be broken....I`m .....

---

But India is shinning, here is an example

South India : World`s suicide capital

Out of every three cases of suicide reported every 15 minutes in India, one is committed by a youth in the age group of 15 to 29. -
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/apr/15spec.htm

Now only if we can convince arjun_mf

Romair & His Excellency

Excuse me for butting into a discussion about Pakistan. But if democracy (in its ramshackle form) has been good enough for India and has contributed directly to social mobility and wealth creation in India over the past fifty years, why shouldnt it work for Pakistan too? China sounds all well and good but would there ever be a Tianamen Square in Pakistan?

I just dont buy your arguments. Let the people decide. If it is good for Indians it is good for Pakistanis.

HisExcellency #33: ``To cope with these challenges, Pakistan needs to follow the China model, i.e. authoritarian government, stable economic policies, limited political freedoms, and phased liberalization. If there are any political disturbances in the meantime, the state must crush them with an iron hand... and persevere with its reforms agenda. ``

I would tend to agree. Though I think press and media should have 100% freedom. And political disturbances should be allowed, as long as they don`t do material damage. Other than that, economy is the way to go. Given the choice between being rich and voting, Pakistanis have always opted for being rich. This is apparent from all the expatriates on this site. It is only after people are rich that they start worrying about concepts like voting.

At the same time, there should be a performance criteria set for every govt., on an economic scale. If it doesn`t perform economically, it should be out the door.

I think Pakistan`s natural growth rate is around 6%, historically. My criteria for supporting any govt are as follows:

- At least 6% economic growth, year after year
- Press and media freedom
- Limited or no corruption
- A team of technocrats in key ministerial position, specially those related to finance
- Relatively equal distribution of growth across provinces

Any govt. that achieves this, has my support. Any govt. that cannot, or has not been able to do this, will not have my support. I think if Pakistan can consistently keep doing the above, for fifteen years, with or without democracy, it will be a completely different country. It is statistically impossible for it not to. If it just votes for fifteen years, it will more than likely be in the same mess it is in today. At least that is what the history of Asia tells us.
-

re: Mubashir Butt

All indicators on the Pakistani economy point toward a bright future. Foreign Direct Investment is up and close to the 1996 levels. Foreign reserves and exports are at all time high. Moreover, Shaukat Aziz is optimistic that Pakistan`s GDP per capita will rise to $600 by the end of 2004. Considering his impressive record, one cannot dismiss such claims out of hand. The Americans are pouring in millions of dollars to help Musharraf reform the madrassahs, besides making Pakistan a major non-NATO ally. Pakistan`s macroeconomic and structural problems have largely been reduced. Microeconomic indicators have improved in urban areas but not in other parts especially farm sector.

Islamists dominated Pakistan`s decision making process for 23 years (1979-2001). It is unrealistic to expect them (or their influence) to wither away abruptly in just 3 years. Just like the Islamists penetrated judiciary, military, press, civil bureaucracy and educational institutions... the pro-US moderate forces also have to increase their strength in these institutions and become a strong pressure group. This process entails money as well as time.

To cope with these challenges, Pakistan needs to follow the China model, i.e. authoritarian government, stable economic policies, limited political freedoms, and phased liberalization. If there are any political disturbances in the meantime, the state must crush them with an iron hand... and persevere with its reforms agenda.

Rozaiba #31,

``Institutional stability has no substitute and has no `pre-requisites`. It is born
through a process of conflict.``

Precisely, and something that seems to be terribly under-appreciated in Pakistani
governance structure. As an outsider, it seems to me that there is an unhealthy
amount of hero-worship in Pakistan. Be it Musharraf, Nawaz, Benazir or A.Q.Khan -
people are always looking for a saviour of some sort. This attitude is fundamentally
inimical to building stable democratic institutions.

Rozaiba:

``Given the `dead-end` we`ve hit economically, I am at a COMPLETE loss on WHY you support the Faujiz. ``

Like I have said there is no indicator that we have hit the dead-end and btw, I don`t support the faujiz.

As a family we (my parents) have been supporters of ANP (early 70`s) and then JUI (since the Jihad days.

We don`t support the Faujis, but President Musharraf for making a good shift in policies.

This is one of the many links on economy of Pakistan that I have posted before and I hope that it tells you that we have not hit a dead-end:

WASHINGTON (US): The World Bank [WB] and the International Monetary Fund [IMF] Tuesday appreciated the performance of Pakistan`s economic and fiscal policies-based on discipline, prudence and reform.

Although my family is divided amongst JUI and Musharraf supporters, I believe that Pakistanis should be scared of MMA. Reason: remember my quote of a taxi driver in Peshawar - no cricket, no hockey, no music, no movies, no catwalks, no make-up, no fashion, no fashion clothing, no luxurious living, no average living because of austerity drive, no dining out, no watching entertainment programs on TV, no Basant, no Shandur Mela, no tourism, no our 8 year old daughters going out with their burqa clad moms without cladded in burqa themselves, no women in schools, colleges and universities, no women in workforce, no men out of work force as they will have to do a rota in Hisb Force or Jihad Army, no emigrating outside for their will be no demand for people from a country labeled extremist, etc.

Why should not we support PML N and PPP Benazir? We (Pakistanis) elected them to power twice. They fought with each other and made the 90s the lost decade for us.

PPP made two big blunders: (1) ZAB nationlaised the industry that later gave us nepotism, operational inefficiencies and lack of management skills, ills that still plague us and (2) BB was given a chance to lead the country to propsperity under one umbrella, but instead chose to go for the kill of ``Baqiyaat`` of Martial Law that gave us the worst political confrontation of our chequered history that lasted for 11 years.

The analyst during elections had suggested that PPP seats went up for only 1 reason: division of votes between PML N and PML Q and rise of 3rd force in MMA.

Nawaz, being an industrialist, gave a true hope of economic recovery, but instead went for worst showing - freezing of fcy accounts, assault against the institutions of judiciary and Presidency, etc.

Well, by opting for support to President Musharraf/PM Jamali Team, I have decided what I want for myself and for the ones I love. However, being a strong believer in democracy, I respect the right of others to opt for any other alternative. Opposition is always good. When I hear the views of Indians and other opponents of Musharraf like yourself, I challenge myself on gathering evidence against him. I always find evidence in his support.

Supporting any political party on the basis of evidence that convinces me is my right.

Like I always say however, we can always respectfully and honorably agree to disagree.

ahmadzai:

On your assessment of political dispensations.

Really? PPP is on its way out? Why do you think the dozen PPP members switched sides? Why do you think nearly all of PML-Q members don`t say a word against Musharaf?

Please don`t tell me you honestly feel PML-Q members are supporting Musharaf for his visionary policies.

Aside from the fact that the Faujiz have guns, there is one more reason: NAB. National Accountability Bureau.

Recent parliamentary arguments between Imran Khan and Chaudhary Shujaat are a case in point. The latter got really pissed at Imran Khan after he was accused of supporting the Faujiz to save his own asc and not face the courts for financial crimes of Shujaat family.

As for your insight that PPP is in decline, the final tally after the 2002 elections was that PPP had 81 seats. Up form 19 or so seats it won in 1997. Why did you say PPP was in decline?

Do comment.

The World Is a BUTT and we are ready.. ;-)

the islamist regime fear bogey is a wink-wink creation of military and the US foreign policy. there will be little difference to the word if mma rules via free electoins (except the us foreign policy). it would matter little to the immediate neighborhood. pakistanis would reject any silly stuff from the mma like hand-chopping and cable-tv bans in the next election. over time things will improve.

ahmedzai:

That is a good take on what `perhaps` explains the rapid increase in poverty and rapid decrease in investment under Musharaf.

But here`s a better take. Investors require a stable structure. Look anywhere in the world. This is not that `what comes first? chicken or the egg?` argument that is twisted and presented. Institutional stability has no substitute and has no `pre-requisites`. It is born through a process of conflict.

But if you say that America is hindering Pakistan`s growth, then it leads to the NEXT conclusion. Musharaf`s success at delivering positive macro-statistics, are a DIRECT result of American support. If however, this support is intentionally limiting as well by America, what is your basis for supporting Musharaf?

On the one had, there is no institutional stability. Secondly, American support is intentionally limited- THEREBY NEGATING every single comparison you and others supporting Faujiz make with Malaysia, Singapore, Korea, etc. etc. On top of this, unlike Malaysia, Singapore, Korea etc, not only are we intentionally hindered by America, our Army is hell bent on keeping Kashmir the `core-issue` for which over half the revenue go toward. The dictators or `constitutional dictators` of Malaysia and Singapore did not burden their economies with exhorbitant defense expenditures. They wanted to develop the economy and nothing more.

Dr. Mahatir when he came to Pakistan last year said very bluntly to Pakistan`s officials who were supporting the need for nuclear `deterrence`. Mahatir told them:

``YOU PREPARE FOR WAR TO GO TO WAR. YOU DON`T PREPARE FOR WAR SO YOU DON`T GO TO WAR.``

Now we can debate Mahatir`s stinging remarks against Pakistan Armed Forces policy but since you and others supporting the Faujiz admire Mahatir so much, I thought I`d mention this.

Given the `dead-end` we`ve hit economically, I am at a COMPLETE loss on WHY you support the Faujiz.

#13, mubakr:
****i agree with you in principle but the historic phenomena are impossible to reverse and what jamali said at ndc had a background of state`s failing to provide ANYTHING to its inhabitants (note: i am not using the word citizens here). the feeling is that people who live in the state of pakistan are the subjects; not the citizens.****

Nothing is impossible.

As a nation fissions so can it coalesce. We, as conglomerate population, need to recognize what led to what. The naysayers of all hues will block the path for reintegration of South Asia`s populations and there will be costs to each population. The coalescence will proceed only if and when populations deem that the coalescence is beneficial. The men of the millennium - Gandhi and Nehru - did think that that the aforesaid fission will (I use direct speech not indirect because their thoughts are still valid) not be in the best interest of people at large. SHORTSIGHTED leaders on both sides of the current borders created enough nuisance to cloud the impressionable minds of the populace of the South Asia. We know the result and graduallybut surely the stupidity of ``the blinds``` policy is getting proved.

I would not begin to address second part of your sentence as it speaks tomes. That needs a different and specific forum in its own right.

Ref mubakr #20

[hmmm...it`s not about being ``butt-ready`` under the ``U.S. orders.`` ....

and hey, i am also a butt...so be careful here :) ]

Well, I just couldn`t resist the pun!

Thanks for being so sporting about that!

Rozaiba:

Perhaps Pakistan`s negative image that has formed over a period of last many years and perceived instability at the hands of extremists is a more plausible reason for pathetic FDI. USA and UK`s issuing travel advisories has not helped either.

It seems that there is a deliberate attempt on part of the USA at least to keep Pakistan`s economic growth independent of the USA under strong check. As soon as international investors reach Pakistan or are about to reach it, the advisory is isuued scaring the investors away. The most recent one has been issued immediately after a USA`s delegation for furthering foreign investment in Pakistan left after chalking out a solid plan for FDI.

Rise in GNP (overall growth rate of 5.8% and industrial growth rate of 8%), rising exports, increasing financial ratings by international agencies, good comments of international funding agencies on economic policies, etc. can be cited as good indicators in favor of improving economic situation. I have posted links on all these indicators from time to time.

Mubashir Butt:

It is a crisp article.

I have always been saying that in the near future the political arena of Pakistan will only comprise of an alliance of Mullas under MMA versus an alliance of moderates under President Musharraf/PM Jamali. PML N has already almost disappeared, while PPP has been relegated to a party only winning from its staunch feudal constituencies. (As the time passes, PPP will erode more and more at the leadership level. Reason is that there is a considerable frustration in the upper echelons for not having shared the associated benefits of being in power since 1996. Therefore, it is becoming easier for the rulers to allure them to power positions.)

The MMA will push for Islamic emotionalism based mainly on issues of pan-Islamaism and anti-Americanism. Otoh, the ruling alliance will increasingly push for an agenda of economic growth. Since unfortunately Pakistanis are an emotional people and will rather opt for religious rhetorics rather than prosperity, the economic performance of the ruling alliance has to be something that is beyond a miracle in order for them to succeed.

Both the sides are desparate for retaining and gaining ground in public support. Thus MMA is making big issues out of non-matters like WANA operations and the ruling alliance is making desparate attempts to cascade the benefits of improving economy to common man e.g. President Musharraf himself chairing the meeting with Association of Developers for boosting construction that promises more jobs.

It seems that the ruling alliance has already comprehended that Pakistanis will make emotional rather than an intelligent decision when the time comes. Imho, this is also the reason why some Ministers and the President himself have alluded to continuing with uniform for some more time. To me, that will not be a bad choice.

Musharraf did the best he could. Do i think he is the best leader for Pak. No not really, but in the current time Yes he is adequate. I would be immensely disturbed if a qazi or mullah becomes the leader of Pak. Imagine the meetings between Bush and a mullah Pak preasident. Put your imagination to work in terms of what he would wear. It would be odd in my opinion, because at home he would be against all things West and abroad would be embracing the west. Hypocritical too.

Mubashir Butt aka mubakr:

You had stated in your article and I had asked, the MAJOR economic commitments. Those small investments are good of course- beggars can`t be choosers after all.

In your opinion, why is foreign direct investment- the ONLY criteria for indication to development used by ANY third world country without an industrial base, declining so rapidly? Because this is a cocern. If after all the major macro-changes, FDI won`t arrive, and poverty continues to rapidly increase, what are we to assume?

By how much has EU increased Pakistan`s quota? Last I read (about a month ago), UK had slapped 15 percent duty on bed-linen from Pakistan and EU was to follow suit.

Yes we are littered with unkept promises and forecasts gone awry of politicians. But they can at least have the chance to suffer the consequences of broken promises through electoral system. A chance there is at least. You had mentioned accountability. It begs a question. Who will hold the present regime accountable for pushing 18 million more people below the poverty line?

Daily jihad news,

At last some one is listening to this lone voice on chowk. Al quida #3 was found in the house of a major in pak army. What is the rank where the uno will be found. After bombing the rocky cliffs of Wana, and after the latest tape, the americans are asking the same question, will he be in islamabad or rawalpindi.

Today in Australia a pakistani has been arrested a trained lasker e toiba person. All terror roads lead to pakistan.

The moroccan investigations ahve identifed hashis link to jihad. Religion is the opiate of the masses. Opium is the fuel of jihad.

Mushy has declared that there is no terror in kashmir, it is freedom struggle. The same views expressed by the military men like romair on chowk, little do they accep that war on terror is war on islamic terror, it is war on jihad. If jihad and killing of kafirs is the central tenet of islam, it is a war on islam.

mubakr,

Thanks for the enlightened response, if you are a pakistani, you are one of the rarest.

Regards

Jay

/////////////////////////////

Dawn of new islam,

Events in iraq points to the period of revival of islam. The present war on terror will result in slow and steady denial of economic improvement opprtunities for islamic countries, the most dangerous are jihadists from educated technically advanced countries. Hence the central theme of the war on terror is the technology denial for islamic countries.

There will be travel restirctions, less from islamic countries will study in develiped nations, less wil travel to the islamic countries. The isolation and deprevation of the islamic countries will increase, and evenetually there will be congruence of the ideology of the book and the life style that germinated the book.

Once the congruence is attained, it is time to rewrite the book, there will be islamic reformation, there after islamic countries will slowly progress.

Iraq is the dawn of a new era for islam, it is the dawn of an internationally coordinated response to improve the jihadic mind set, it is the start of a decline and hence the dawn of a new tomorrow, may be another 50 years down the line.

The educational dilemma



In recent days, the report by an NGO, Sustainable Development Policy Institute (SDPI), about educational structure and possible reforms has triggered off debate in academic circles. It throws light on the prejudices shown in our textbooks towards minorities, anti-Hindu sentiments and undue emphasis on jihad and makes recommendations to reform them.

There are some among us who oppose such changes, thinking it to be an imperialist plot to rob our children of their identity and heritage. However, the authors of the report and those who favour its recommendations, call these allegations baseless.

Amidst all these controversies the most neglected group is the one which is the most affected, that is, the students. I, as a student, wish to write against the two extremes.

//////////////

Above is from dawn of today.

There was a time on chowk when the ylh and the tahmeds denied the xistance of k for kafir education. Now that seem to be the truth season, may the yaks have put ``truth cirum`` into the water supply, all are talking about k for kafir education. May be the thinder of daisy cutters have woken the pakistanis from the persistant delusions.

hmmm...it`s not about being ``butt-ready`` under the ``U.S. orders.`` there`s more to it. conceived and formed as a reaction nation state in 1947 by breaking off the bigger india namely for the muslims, the deep rooted sense of insecurity`s always been there. too bad for pakistan that indians were already friends with russia and thus they couldnt trust the russians and headed to the u.s.

this image of being an ``at your services sir`` generally is a perceived reality which is slightly different from the reality itself.

and hey, i am also a butt...so be careful here :)

hmmm...it`s not about being ``butt-ready`` under the ``U.S. orders.`` there`s more to it. conceived and formed as a reaction nation state in 1947 by breaking off the bigger india namely for the muslims, the deep rooted sense of insecurity`s always been there. too bad for pakistan that indians were already friends with russia and thus they couldnt trust the russians and headed to the u.s.

this image of being an ``at your services sir`` generally is a perceived reality which is slightly different from the reality itself.

and hey, i am also a butt...so be careful here :)

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Pakistan has always been butt-ready when it came to changing directions under US orders!

# 5 Arjun_m

you quoted abdur rasheed ghazi saying that osama is our hero and that poll would reveal that bush is our enemy. frankly, you cant label one`s comments as the psyche of the whole nation. we all have extremists in all societies of the world - no matter how strong systems there could be. the great gandhi once said that ``mullah and pandit think the same and so does sufi and sadhu; one divides but the other joins.`` AND you quoted a MULLAH here...try searching for sufis too :)

# 6 Rozaiba

USAID is pouring in 100 million USD for the education sector reforms only via Education Sector Reforms Assistance (ESRA) and Ministry of Education (MoE). yet another 40 million USD are administered via Natinal Democratic Institute and Internation Republican Institute for the political reforms and training. some 10 million USD are for the time are reserved for direct help to the small scale educational enterprises. now touching the econimic commitments, US recently increased the taxtile quota from Pakistan by 3.7% which is expected to bring a boost in our economy by around 65 million USD and frankly, what else could we export other than garments etc. EU`s increase in, yet again, taxtiles is expected to bring around 49 million Euros rise. Europeans are also actively donating in the educational sector too. one scandanavian mission is extremely actively involved in madrassah uplift.

# 8 pmishra2

the issue is not the individuals here; the issue is the state and it`s policies and the people running the show. ``freedom fighting`` is not the only way of achieving the ``goals.`` search and you`ll find many. the support that these ``freedom fighters`` were getting in 2000 was around 89 million USD from the people behind the curtain, if i may quote a journanlist here! children are dying hungry and women becoming prostitues because of poverty and we are waging jihad in other lands.

# 9 Inquirer

i agree with you in principle but the historic phenomena are impossible to reverse and what jamali said at ndc had a background of state`s failing to provide ANYTHING to its inhabitants (note: i am not using the word citizens here). the feeling is that people who live in the state of pakistan are the subjects; not the citizens.

# 10 arjun_m

i cannot brush aside this story in daily times; there could be some substance to that but it would be interesting if this becomes the starting point of banning hizbul too as an act of CBM towards india. in that case, i am the biggest advocate of that...and hey partner - trust me - that a majority of people in pakistan never endorsed the kashmir policy from the very beginning.

# 11 jay

yes. pakistanis are NOT ready for the new pakistan. also true that what musharraf`s been doing, it`s mainly because of the international pressure otherwise this very same great general said on kohala bridge on february 5, 2000 that a certain kashmiri song (kario band-e-jiggar) brings ``tears to my eyes`` and aslo waved his fist as a gesture of solidarity with kashmiri people. but what`s the starting point here? allow me to subtly disagree with you here to start ``ridiculing`` the pakistan`s ideology - frankly, i`ve never believed that religion could play a part in forming a seperate state etc - but such a frontal strategy will bring back a frontal lash. rather a covert and indirect approach of educating the people`s mindset could bring them to such a point where they could start thinking of jihad in SOCIAL terms rather than the bombs and guns. the synthesis of the indian (not pakistani) independence movement painfully reveals how gandhi was ignored both by congress and the mulsim league. at one point gandhi agreed to have either of the prime minister of president from a minority community i.e. muslims. mirraculously jinnah agreed too but nehru didnt. the personal chemistry of jinnah and nehru was based on hatred for eachother. jinnah was more blunt and non diplomatic saying that ``we shall have india divided or we shall have india destroyed.`` in both cases, it was destruction. gandhi said that ``india will only be divided over my dead body`` and THEY killed him soon after. nehru was more subtle and polite - the way he was - in telling gandhi that he wont accept jinnah either as the pm or the president. but now comrad, done is done and historic process cant be reversed. pakistan will have to understand today or tomorrow that an air of hatred will only breed hatred from all sides. getting rid of it is better today than tomorrow.

yes. these figures are correct thou the government still says it`s below 40% - 37% is what they claim it to be. now, the way poverty is defined is - to put it at the least - hilarious: a family of five making two dollars (Rs. 114) a day is not poor. below that is poor. my god, just imagine if a family can live in 3,420 rupees per month.

itnay kay to bachon kay pampers aa jaatay hein!

now, committing to economic growth is different from the trickle down effect to the masses. there we would need to develop a mechanism to ensure it happens; something for the government to do which ironically and tragically doesnt seem much interested to develop.

our political history is littered with the false promises and then backing out. do we still remember the tall claims by the then finance minsiter, SARTAJ AZIZ in Nawaz-II, that ``economy is about to take the turn and will take off soon.`` later this man was made the foreign minister and now is the vice chancellor of the Beaconhouse National University. these contradictions will continue till the fear of accountability is not there, which is not!!!

According to studies by Agri. Development Bank and the institute named after the renowend former World Bank employee and Pakistan`s former finance minister Dr. Mahbub-ul-Haq Human Development Center, the percentage of those below the poverty line in Pakistan before Musharaf took power was 32% (year 1998-99).

The forecast for year 2003-04 is 44%.

This shows that under Musharaf poverty has increased by 12 percent.

I was surprised to read these statistics. Are these figures correct?

Mubashir Butt, how should we explain this?

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``Musharraf and the political government are faced with the challenge of steering the nation into a progressive future: a future where no youth would fall trap to extremism and blow himself in a mosque. Musharraf and Jamali get lashes from the domestic politicians for doing just that while the world pats their back. Only time will prove who takes the lead but for now, I must say that the world appears prepared but we are not for a new – and better – Pakistan.``

Take it from me my friend, mushy is not steering pakistan to any progressive state, it is being pushed in that direction by the yanks, and mushy is not doing it for the good of people of pakistan, but to preserve the pak military, remebering what happened to sadams army.

But it is heartening to note that you have hit up on the truth rather in a convoluted manner. The pakistanis are not ready for the change, a theme I had been harping on for so many years. Pakistanis are in general jihadic people, they have a country created for islam, and jihad is the principal and central element of islam.

The dawn of any hope for pakistan is the day when people stop talking about jinnahs dream, the day the intelectuals of pakistan accept that TNT is a corrosive ideology that criminalised pakistan. The day the pakistanis accept the priciple of partitition based on the idea that muslims cannot live with hindus was faulty, consign the proponents of that to the trash heap of history. Then say that pakistan exist due to a set of unfortunate circumstances , and work for the future of its people.

That is the only way forward by ignoring the cry `` pakistan ka matlab kya``, or may be answering it by telling that pakistan is a ba$tard country. Without rediculing and resituating the ideology of pak creation there is no hope for pakistan.

Go and smash a few photos.

You say:

``Preempting criticism, I would refer to Prime Minister Jamali’s recent speech at National Defense College where he said that Pakistan was becoming “irrelevant” to the masses.``

What Pakistani leaders - now enlightened, somewhat - are saying is that: The antiquated and intolerance based ideology in which Pakistan originated and has been increasingly identified with has no place in relationship to masses` aspirations. Of course, the masses do not include Mullah-terrorists and their supporters.

Do not condemn noble freedom fighters who are willing to sacrifice all for their goals!!

Obviously, only a truly dedicated and heroic person would blow themselves up in a place of worship.

Do not mock their sincerity with your tedious emphasis on reason and irrelevant appeals to common-sense. Once there is a ``just cause``, everything is permissible: murder of children on buses, mass killings, suicide bombings, grenades thrown at meetings of elected officials.

Instead you should try to understand and appreciate the ``root cause``. Without sympathy and understanding for those who blow themselves up, you will get nowhere. All those who condemn them are avoiding the real issue that drives people to kill themselves and others. They are hypocriites, lovers of life and without principles.

Musharraf has made some bold and correct decisions, like becoming a US ally, going through with a peace process without making Kashmir the biggest issue, going against fundamentalist groups in Wana etc. However, he has also made some major blunders. The referendum was a huge blunder. Sidelining opposition parties was also a blunder.

The people of Pakistan cannot create a new Pakistan without the support of the Government. Freedom of speech for the individual should be revered and strongly implemented. If the people are restricted, whether directly or indirectly to speak against the policies of the government and the military, there will be no real progress among the people. I believe the people in general have become apathetic to progress because they have been hammered again and again over the years that you cannot freely stand up and say anything against the military or the ruling government.

Second, the people of Pakistan have also become apathetic to our law and order institutions. Particularly in Karachi, the growing consensus among people is that if you don`t have connections or the money to bail you out of trouble, the police and the law cannot do anything for you. This is something that needs to be changed. When people believe in the effectiveness of the law of the country, thats when corruption will be reduced, adherence to the law will increase and progress would come about. Musharraf and his government should take the lead in showing us that the law and order institutions reign supreme and not the military or the ruling government.

The problem is that YOU moderate muslims have become a nation of the mute! Extremist forces are now running the show in your society. The past two decades have witnessed Pakistan steering a course strewn with blood, bones, and bodies of innocent victims - all of which can be attributed solely to religious bigotry. Your entire political system is diseased by these religious identities........ahhhh what is the use saying all this.........Pakistan is not ready for anything Mubashir and this country is not going to move forward (atleast not in our life time) Period!
LONG LIVE MUSHARRAF AND GOD BLESS USA!!

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In your neutrality, please provide SOME examples of major economic commitments being put into Pakistan. This year, FDI is half what it was last year. Thanks

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INSIDETRACK ON WORLD NEWS
by international syndicated columnist & broadcaster Eric Margolis


THE MOTHER OF ALL BLUNDERS
Copyright: Eric S. Margolis, 2004
April 12, 2004

NEW YORK — How the many intelligent people in the Bush Administration can continue to make so many enormous blunders astounds and dismays. Two examples:

Australia is facing a tight electoral race between conservative John Howard, who eagerly sent troops to Iraq, and Labor Party challenger, Mark Latham, who, like Spain`s new prime minister, vows to bring his nation`s troops home from Iraq. A majority of Australians oppose the Iraq War.

US ambassador Tom Schieffer, a Texas pal of George Bush, warned Australians of `serious consequences` if they elect Latham. Now, Australians love America, but any worldly person knows, do not threaten Aussies. They will come out swinging. Schieffer should be fired.

Far worse, however, is the ham-handed US Iraq Proconsul, Paul Bremer. A neo-conservative ideologue, Bremer was responsible for two of the Bush Administration`s most disastrous mistakes in Iraq: disbanding Iraq`s Army, and firing tens of thousands of government bureaucrats because they were Ba`ath party members.

Any junior imperialist knows the first thing you do when you conquer someone`s country is to buy the loyalty of its existing armed forces, government and police. Otherwise you will have armies of angry, unemployed potential rebels roaming the streets — Iraq being Exhibit A.

Bremer`s third horrible blunder came this week. The US Proconsul, who is supposedly bringing the light of democracy to Iraq, shut down a tiny, 10,000 circulation Shia newspaper and arrested its editor for `spreading anti-American views` and calling Bremer rude names. The paper`s publisher was firebrand Shia mullah Muqtada el-Sadr, who has been calling on Iraqis to resist US occupation.

Bremer turned Sadr, a little-respected junior cleric with a limited following, into an overnight hero to restive Shias, and a new American villain.

Bremer`s latest imbecility caused Iraq`s Shia majority, which was simmering with anti-American passions, to explode into violence. Washington and US forces were caught totally by surprise, though warnings were aplenty. This writer, for example, said on CNN`s Paula Zahn show — exactly three days before the explosion of Shia rage — `the Shia and the US are on a collision course…their younger mullahs are calling for armed resistance…what we`ve seen so far(Sunni resistance) is only a foretaste of the violence to come.`

For months, Iraq`s Shia have heeded calls for patience from their spiritual leader, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani. He tried to get Washington to agree to genuine democratic elections in January, 2005. But it`s painfully clear the US will not allow Iraq`s Shia majority(60%) to gain real political power, and intends to keep troops based there indefinitely.

The Bush Administration`s definition of `democracy` in Iraq means a puppet regime that goes through the motions of democracy, `invites` US troops to stay on, permits US business to exploit Iraq`s oil riches, and cooperates with Israel.

An interesting side note: Reza Pahlavi, pretender to Iran`s throne, opined to me recently in Washington that Iraq`s Ayatollah Sistani actually outranks all of Iran`s clergy, including leader, Grand Ayatollah Khamenei, and Iraq`s holy city of Najaf outranks Iran`s theological center, Qum.

Revelations of Washington`s plans to colonize Iraq, and Israel`s assassination of the Palestinian leader, Sheik Yassin, intensified pent-up Shia fury. Americans can thank Bremer and his bosses in the White House for opening this two-front war in Iraq and driving the Shia and Sunnis together.

The savage punishment of the rebellious city of Falluja — over 300 Iraqis killed — after the brutal killing of four US mercenaries there sharply recalls Israel`s ravaging of the rebellious West Bank town of Jenin.

As this column predicted a year ago, `liberated` Iraq has become a copy of the strife-torn Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza — writ large. Israeli military and intelligence experts are now advising US operations in Iraq. All who oppose US occupation are branded `terrorists.`

Iraq is not going to be `liberated` or taught democracy by means of US heavy tanks and helicopter gunships. Quite the contrary, what we have seen this week is the sowing by heavy-handed US occupation forces of a whole new crop of terrorist dragon`s teeth in the bloodstained soil of Iraq.

The only bright note for the Bush White House: