More Cobwebs

#31 by veeresh on April 22, 2004 6:15am PT
I doubt small time retail markets like lajpat nagar make much dent at a macro level.
It may sound like a cliche but the fact is that before Indian business got used to living with competition and rivals they were actually hob-nobbing with politicians in order to impose entry conditions in a market. I have seen every year how the Indian trade associations have been actively involved in increasing tariffs for market segments where they were internationally incompetitive. The import tariffs were pretty high and so were the licensing conditions pre-1990. At the state level, the local monopolies were active in ensuring that opening a new venture was not easy.
Now all this has changed and opening a new manufacturing unit is not all that problematic and the government plays favourites in competition very carefully due to apprehensions of leakages to the press and other agencies. even banks have now streamlined their loan disbursal mechanism and there is little corruption compared to the past in securing aloan- all thanks to the banking sector getting used to competition.
The middle class is the result of the unbirdled growth of competition and private companies and concerns which provide services and goods which have traditionally been the monopoly of government.
So middle class is just a fallout of these macro changes in the Indian economy- it is not the other way around.

Ballukhan # 30 . . . in this day and age, with internet as well as what appears to be a reasonably free market in Pakistan, I think it is not fair to blame the ever-present bogeyman of business monopolies and ``policies``. I think it is simply that there does not appear to be a resurgent 2nd/3rd generation middle class with risk taking abilities in Pakistan. (I am measuring 2nd/3rd generation from 1947 onwards). I mean, for those of you who know what I am talking about, where are the equivalents of Lajpat Nagar/Delhi? (Lajpat Nagar/Delhi was one of the many post-partition resettlement colonies, which today are amongst the richest parts of Delhi - two generations ago they were much like what I saw in Moghulpura/Sheikhpura-Lahore)

I am told, offline, that it is different in Karachi, which is more like a freeport than anything else, I would not know, I have not gone there in a long while.

Again, even there, my benchmarks would be the standard daily commodities I as a middle-class person consume . . . newspaper, soap, booze, motor vehicles, fuel, education, healthcare, electricity, water, public transport, food, kitchen stuff, communications phone/internet . . . you get the drift?

No amount of policies can prevent a middle class from churning out a cheap newspaper . . . the emergence of a strong vernacular media in India today, for example, had to do with the straight lifting and translating and printing of news from other sources a few decades ago . . . today each of these vernacular papers, from Urdu to all the languages on our currency note and more, are strong in their own right and they still cost the usual 1 or 2 rupees, full colour, 16-32 pages broadsheet easy.

Likewise, take the example of the lack of emergence of strong brands in small eating places in Pakistan is also not due to any ``policies``, right? I mean, I would love to take Rahat bakery / ice cream / chicken tandoori from Pindi into India, if I could. And I am sure South Indian non-veg brands like Coconut Grove would do well in Pakistan.

I think, and forgive me for chotti mooh badee baat, that it is the simple absence of a secure 2nd/3rd generation middle class in Pakistan that causes these monopolies to stay strong.

To this, I personally think that one reason for lack of middle class aspirations is that the Pakistani media does not really move around amongst the middle class in India to project that 250 million in India as a mirror to Pakistani society.

#29 by veeresh on April 21, 2004 8:40pm PT
I agree with this reading. The other fact is that the Pakistani business monopolies and oligopolies love to have dictators with whom they would like to play around with- this enables them to play with the entry conditions for a particular market segment.
So I would expect higher margins and oligopolies as a plain and simple reflection of the existence of dictatorial regimes in Pakistan which decide the Industrial and Commerce policies.

Newsprint prices in India have come down mainly due to large acreage of forestry specifically for social and economic purposes. As for rate of duty, there are plenty of other items at 5% or lower, down through nil. There is no subsidy, users are free to buy from any source they want, and negotiating skills are a fact of life.

Even before it went on OGL in 1995, it was available without much fuss.

I think some things in Pakistan are at higher prices simply because the ``levels of inefficiency`` in Pakistan are terribly high, probably 300% if alcohol, motor vehicles/aggregates, newspapers/magazines and other imported items are benchmarks. Your VARAN and Pakistan Amy HinoPak buses/trucks are out-and-out Ashok Leyland, but you pay twice the price because you seem to need to add a Japanese-Dubai-Pakistani tag. Your alcohol if legalised would not increase/reduce consumption but prices would come down and excise collections would go UP into government coffers. Why CEAT tyres cost 3 times what they cost a few miles away beats me, even though wagon loads move legally every day across borders.

Once again, I think your establishment is simply used to the idea of making large profits. And you call US banias/lalas? Bania/lala in India would go out of business in 72 hours if s/he did not compete, as would the MNCs.

The big difference between India and Pakistan is, IMHO, that in India a figure like 1 or 2 percentage points on monthly turnover is now considered a decent clear profit . . . anything higher, and somebody else with a smarter mind and lower overheads will step in. This has happened in the last 5-8 years.

I do not think it is a function of size of market, otherwise what would the rationale behind Switzerland, be?

veeresh #22 #25
Yes. Newsprint went on OGL in 1995 apparently.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2002/03/08/stories/2002030800620200.htm

Veeresh, as you say, the higher prices might be due to unrealised potential and inadequate mass marketing measures, because there appears to be a similar situation with Pakistani music. I have found it difficult to find information/access to good quality DVD/CDs if one sets out to buy some given Pakistani artistes/plays/movies.

And when Ms. Abida Parveen visited on concert tour recently, the TV ad which announced it didnot bother to carry any information about where she would be holding her concerts, nor could I find a website which did. Here was this renowned great singer who needs no advertisement and a simple few KEY lines of information to reach prob. thousands of willing listeners like me were missing.

#19 by veeresh on April 20, 2004 7:17am PT
Well Indian govt also provides subsidy for actual user imports- I believe the import duties on newsprint is only 5% for the actual user.
But , ofcourse that is not the full story, marketing does appear to be the real reason behind- further the volumes are high for the newspaper companies.

#19 by veeresh on April 20, 2004 7:17am PT

The logic for burning has been succinctly put as under:-

``they will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous.``

Hi Beena/Sadna and others . . . here is an early morning ballpark figure from sources which are always correct . . . newsprint, or any paper for that matter, imported from the same sources in Canada, seems to end up being billed at almost double the price in Pakistan than it does in India.

The trick apparently is to play around with the specifications to justify the higher prices that Pakistani customers seem to be willing to pay.

nazarhayatkhan...they mullah you see on the tv are not actually what they look like
if someone is coming on tv how come he can be a Aalim, he can not be... and if he is he has no right to say anything what he does not practice. these people are groomed by the ppl who are against the true Aalims...they r there to portray mullah so that ppl can say things abt mullah, you might have not heard real Aalim..if you then you will find the difference how solid their remarks are...the true Aalims are always against the cirruculum which is still taught us in schools... why?... because this literature makes us dumb, teaches us falsities of life and takes back truth and our ideology(human is created with ideology of Isalm)... the ppl you see on tv mostly are from the schools who makes us numb not bright. so how can you expect them to say something valuable on the topic they think the current curriculum is right, but let me say... its never been the right...we are taught the things which were somehow obsoleted or have been enhanced alot and not finding enouhg resources for research inschools even in universities we are not able to learn things right way...

there is a need to change the structure not just the curriculum


do you think amir liaquat husain of aalim online is an Aalim I am sorry for you then, you really know nothing

It has always been my contention that Pakistan being a country of 145 million soules, militarily strong and at the verge of an economic take-off, needs to be confident in how we deal with the world. Today`s Daily News reports:

Khalilzad’s ‘foolish utterances’ rejected

Pakistan to lodge strong protest with US

By Mariana Baabar

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has taken serious notice of the ``foolish and irresponsible utterances`` of US Ambassador in Kabul and decided to lodge a strong protest with the US government on the matter.

This is the second time in a few days that Islamabad will be protesting to Washington about statements emanating from senior American officials regarding their views on Pakistan.

Khalilzad has persistently blamed Islamabad for not doing enough to wipe out all al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters from its areas, which border Afghanistan. Paying no heed to the official US line, which says that Islamabad has played a significant role in the war against terrorism, the outspoken envoy has been consistently critical of Pakistan’s attempts.

``We regret all these allegations and specially reject this ‘Pakistan should do more’ expression. Pakistan is doing more than anyone else and in fact the ambassador should do less by talking less. We will protest to the US government about the foolish and irresponsible utterances that he has made,`` said Masood Khan, spokesman at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,during a weekly press briefing.

The spokesman said that there was close understanding between the leadership of the US and Pakistan and certainly there were no question marks on these relations. ``We have very good relations with the US leadership and what is more important is that both nations attach importance to this vibrant relationship.``

He pointed out : ``The US ambassador to Kabul is new to his job and diplomacy but he is not expected to make statements violating such norms. He should choose his words carefully. I feel he is seeking attention and pushing the envelope.``

The spokesman advised the US ambassador to Afghanistan that if he had anything to convey to Islamabad he could do so easily through the American ambassador here, Nancy Powell who, the spokesman said, was a highly professional diplomat.

Pakistan refused to be apologetic about Madaris (religious institutions) inside Pakistan saying that it was an Islamic country where the Holy Quran would be taught. These institutions also provided food, shelter and rudimentary education. This is being changed to bring them into the mainstream education system. The spokesman was responding to a query whether Pakistan was changing its education syllabus on the behest of Washington.

He agreed that Pakistan’s education institutions also needed reform and also pointed out to the many institutions in the West, which taught the Bible. But the spokesman defended the fine educational institutions in Pakistan from where graduates have gone abroad. ``We are proud of our institutions and we are trying to update the curricula,`` he said.

Hi Sadna . . . newsprint is not subsidised in India for the past 14 years. It is on OGL (Open General Licence) for import, but domestic is as good and cheaper. I can let this board know in 48 hours what price a typical Canadian supplier achieves for selling the same stuff in India and in Pakistan.

The media, print or electronic, in India is not subsidised by the Government anymore. Please understand that? Have you seen a media more critical of its own Government than in India, lately?

It is another thing that most media houses in India are increasingly savvy business propositions. A typical small newspaper in a ``B`` town will probably use about 40% of technology capacity for their own work and the rest for other non-media work. Average age of machinery will be 18 months and automation as well as high-res colour will be seen in the smallest of vernacular newspapers/magazines. Such a media house will typically publish a lakh to 5 lakh copies from 6-10 centres like district headquarters, provide software or content for a tv channel, and also have an infotech subsidiary working for anybody else.

A newspaper like the Hindustan Times costs about 6-7 rupees to bring out, but sells for Rs 1.50 to Rs 2.00 . . . the rest is made up by advertisements and utilising the spare capacity for other work as well as content generation, research, database, the works.

On another tactic, I can get a month`s supply of Indian Express if I buy Rs 600/- worth of petrol from a particular oil company.

``the most progressive empires of that time: The Moghals, The Ottomans, The Safavids, and The Mamluks``

One thing which intrigues me is the struggles with colonialization in the middle-east. The 400 years of Ottoman rule, was that not percieved as colonial? The Mughal/Bahamain rule in India had its benefit that the rulers, though foreign, had pretty much settled down in the gangetic plains and deccan. They were not ruling from Ishpahan via colonial governors, but were ruling in collusion with local robber-baron feudal system. Even they had resistance from Sikhs and Marhattas, and there were plenty of local Independant Rajas even during the peak of the Mughal Empire. It seems that the call to jihad from egypt etc (e.g. zawahari) resonates as anti-colonial. But middle-east has been an ottoman colony for a very long time? How does that play?

veeresh
I suspect newsprint is subsidised in India.

Tatari could have burnt the libraries and books because he or she was having a bad hair day as far as I am concerned.

I want to know from Beena and others why newspapers cost between 10 and 15 rupees in Pakistan, versus 1 or 2 in India. Why do 64 page copybooks cost 25-35 rupees in Pakistan versus 3-4 rupees in India. Why do 72-96 page magazines cost 40-50 rupees in Pakistan versus 10-15 rupees in India.

And, I am sorry to say this here, but even copies of holy books are cheaper in India. To one-fifth.

How will you encourage the habit of inqusitiveness in Pakistan if books are going to be so important and debate will be about burning of libraries in centuries gone past? Burnt is burnt, now print again, no?

#3 by ballukhan on April 18, 2004 9:34pm PT
I would love to have a clear and concise answer from our esteemed scholar huma mir regarding this question - WHY Tatari burned all the libraries and books???

huma at # 11:

Two points:

1. AL -Akami`s incident is not mentioned by both Justice Amir Ali and Maualana Nadvi`s account. However, Imam Ibn-e-Timya account does mention that factor, but then we all know that Imam Timya was drastically biased against Shiás.

2. Even if this account is factually correct, and I believe it may be, then NHK`s post does not seem to negate it. I infer that he is pointing out Hilakoos capture of Baghdad, because Muslims were busy with themselves.

But come to think of it, why I am patronising NHK? I was the poster who had lambasted him once on his anti-Pakistaniat and anti-Muslimness, call it whatever. NHK should be defending himself if he feels like that is the way to go.

My apologies for drifting away. I just wanted to put down historical facts and saw nothing wrong with NHK`s post.

agreeing with #13 huma_mir

this article and so many other articles keep forgetting that the reason we have just started to talk obsessively about educational reforms is very seasonal itself. it will all change once the political situation changes. Cowasjee in his article `Intolerance? bigotry? ignorance? ` on jan 25, 2004 talked briefly about how the curriculum has been getting `reformed` as it suited our governments interests. which i believe are inextricably tied to the Imperialistic endeavors of US. when it suited them we added all the elements of militancy and hatred to our curriculum and when it is no longer serving them we have now decided to take it out. i dont think we should have any kind of hatred in curriculum but when has it ever been about educating our masses? we are only talking about it now because our madressahs and schools do not US agenda anymore. as far as we are concerned we dont have an agenda. and the curriculum never served our needs.

btw Beena, i have read the transcript of Rice, and i do believe that she didnt just mention our minister and Pak. in a passing remark. it was an answer to a question posed by the interviewer as to how we can EDUCATE those muslims who hate us! and how can we export democracy and Civilize them.

its an age old mission of colonialism. the occident only recognizes its existence with the creation of an orient.ie. good/bad, civilized/barbaric.

also, they are the sponsors of the reform. with millions in aid to our education system. so we will be advertising their logo. thats how it works. when you take somone else`s money you do as you are told.

finally, according to cultural relativist perspective, education systems are embedded in cultures. they can only be Reformed in reference to their contexts. other countries or cultures cant make them perform better. so even if we leave out all the negativity regarding US`s agenda, US interference will only mess our education system the way British interference did.

Huma_Mir #11, # 13 - YOU STOLE MY THUNDER ! Bravo ! Very eloquent, concise and too the point. I might add that Tartars (or Tatars) are historically considered to be the branch who controlled crimean region and who eventually ruled Russia. Whereas Mongols are considered to be a branch which took over asia and middle east.

Excellent Job !!! Thanks !

Zain Malik

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ahmadzai # 10 - You have your facts somewhat right. However, NHK in his confused zeal to bash anything religious jumbles the FACTS of history. He stated that ``The Tataris managed to ransack Baghdad because the Muslims were too busy with their holy books and resolving their religious issues. ``

He conveniently forgot to mention a traitor who instigated and hastened the collapse of Baghdad. When Caliph Al-Muta`sim began preparing an army to stop the invasion, his minister Al-Alkami tricked him by convincing him to make friends with the invaders. Al-Alkami wrote secret letters to the Tatars promising them to halt any resistance against them provided that they appointed him as a Caliph and allowed him to establish his own Shia` state in Baghdad. When Al-Alkami misinformed Caliph Al-Muta`sim and made him think that a peace agreement had been reached with the Tartars, Al Muta`sim left with his minister, scholars, and leaders to Baghdad to meet the leader of the Tatars, who killed them all, and captured Baghdad. After that the Tatars killed Al-Alkami too because they knew that a person who betrays his country wouldn`t spare his enemy.

Did NHK forget to mention this because in Al-Akami he sees himself and people like himself? I have said this before, and I repeat again, we muslims have been damaged more by the slaves in our midst than any superpower of anytime.

And let me remind NHK that tatars and mongols converted to ISLAM ! They not only converted to Islam but were directly responsible for 4 of the most progressive empires of that time: The Moghals, The Ottomans, The Safavids, and The Mamluks. This is another inconvenient fact that NHK either does not know or does not wish to state here.

The article was good....the topic Beena picked was even better. Information regarding ``commitee members`` was new for me. God help you all Pakistanis if your curriculum is to be reviewed by such people. The more I read about your educational system and the kind of people running it the more depressing it gets. If the moderate think tanks in your country don`t stand up against the spreading disease (maulvis and maulanas) nothing is going to change in this screwed up country.

humairshah # 1
``there is no text book better than Quran.......try to evolve science using Quran......these books will create another generation who will be GHULAM of angraiz, thats what they want``

Are you one of those committee members??? You moron! Yeah next time my 5 year old asks me about dinosaurs i`ll tell him to read quran because humairshah the great thought so.

LONG LIVE MUSHARRAF AND LONG LIVE USA!

Beena Sarwar - In the presence of CRISIS level issues in Pakistan, your obsession with zeroing-in ONLY on the religiuos aspect of texts is baffling to say the least.

After all, it is not because of the ``religious` shades in our textbooks that 75% of our population is illiterate; that our university graduates drive cabs in New York; that our `urdu medium` students work in cycle workshops; that we have fewer PhDs than Egypt, Israel and Iran (three other countries with MORE `religious` shades in their textbooks).

It is hightime that we Pakistanis stop flapping our tails at the slightest whims of foreign countries. Perhaps Dignity 101 should be a course added to ALL children`s curriculum.

Zain Malik, Ballu Khan and nazarhayatkhan:

History books written by well reputed historians like Justice Amir Ali (A concise history of the Saracens), state that at the time Hilakoo`s forces had encircled Baghdad for final assault, Shia and Sunni Muslims were involved in religious debates as to who is right. These debates almost always resulted in violence. There was so much of sectarian violence that the Caliph instructed that all the citizens of Baghdad be disarmed. Needless to mention, Hilakoo`s forces entered the city unresisted and killed Muslim men and women at will.

The above accounts are also supported by Maulana Ahmad Hassan Nadvi (?) in his historical narration of the Fitna-e-Tataar.

Zain: The Tatari fitna may have started a century ago and subsequently may have led to an entirely different background, but NHK is right. He is referring to one sensitive matter concerning Muslims at the time of invasion of Baghdad by Hilakoo`s army.

Beena,

Is it the same on all these privately run schools? i mean is there curriculum filled with all this stuff as well?

There seems to be so many diff kinds of schools in Pak offering diff kinds of qualifications, O Levels, A levels, and Pak qualifications, among others. Are these schools due to cr*ppy govt standards or have risen due to elite ppl wanting something better, or both?

Homo_Absurdus

You are right, Pak Govt English books are rubbish, i sat down one day with my cuz in Faisalabad and corrected half her English books, she was surprised at the mistakes and so was i... is there no regulatory body that checks for correct English?

NHK # 4 - You wrote ``The Tataris managed to ransack Baghdad because the Muslims were too busy with their holy books and resolving their religious issues. ``

NHK - you should stick to commenting on topics you ACTUALLY know about. It is the illiterate `educated` people like you who need to be reformed before you go about `reforming` the rest of the population. This is the most stupidest, dumbest, baseless, and corrupt explanation of the sacking of Baghdad I have ever heard. Instead of wasting your time oozing out these absurdities, why don`t you spend some time surfing internet and finding about the history of mongols. tartars, baghdad ect. It will give you a proper context of history before you make a fool of yourself.

Zain Malik

It`s a good and timely article by Beena Sarwar. I am serving as a lecturer in Englsih at one of Islamabad`s Model colleges where we teach classes from 6 to 12. One issue that`s being left out is that last year Federal Board introduced Punjab Text Book Board`s books for class 9 and this year for class 10. Previously we had interactive books on English Published by some private publisher. The books from Punjab Text Book Board are cheap and rubbish. Their bad quality is simply mind-boggling. It seems as if somebody has translated articles from Urdu or something. The whole book can be easily finished within one month. Model Colleges have Oxford Guided English for Pakistan Series from Class 6 to 8. Now our studnets in class 9 and 10 who have studied much more difficult Oxford Series books in their junior classes laugh at the books and teachers. We Englsih tecahers feel ashamed at these books. May God save us from curriculum wing.

Ideologies are enemies of truth. Any curriculum based on ideology is only a pack of lies.

good observations of insecurities nazarhayatkhan.

a friend had asked for a book recommendation. i was telling him about naguib mahfouz- known as the greatest arabic novel writer and nobel prize winner, and began to state a bit of the author`s history and that his throat was slit by fundos. when asked why, i told him the author had written a book `children of gebalawi` in which after going through fictional tales of adam, moses, jesus and mohammed, the author concluded with a final fictional tale depicting `science` as the new religion and indirectly revealed the `murder of god`. the friend was immediately turned off and refused to read anything by the author. i know, my mistake. anyhow, i could find most all Mahfouz books in Pakistan except `children of gebalawi`.

Some objections by Mullas on the curriculum:

Why on one page there is talk about Prophet; and on the next page the story about `Daboo`- the dog?

Why Hazrat Aisha is called first lady?

Why there is a love story in Class 8 book?

Why Condaliza Rice spoke to Pakistani education Minister Zubaida Jalal on Education Curricula?

Why Pakistan ideology? and Islamic Ideology? is not there in books of every subject?

What is the use of giving the history of Mohenjo Daro. It should be only Islamic history?

The TV Panel Discussions have three types of panalists:

The Liberals on the TV discussions sound meek, apologetic and do not call a spade a spade except some like Hamida Khuro.

The confused semi-liberals like the Muslim Leaguers give wishy washy excuses as if trying hard not to sound unislamic.

The bearded Mullas or the Hijabans on the Panel keep confidently thrusting out their illogical arguements. While they denounce the BJP for doing this in India, they confidently keep pleading to do the same here.

Overall, the end affect on the audience is benign, I think, - and audience gets up with the impression that the Mullas are taking it a bit too far and they could at times be quite stupid.

``....When Tatari conquered Iraq they burned all the libraries and books ..does anyone think WHY?? ............``

Could you please enlighten us with the answer to this WHY?

humairshah # 1

(We need well educated people with the know of our Ideology)

There is no consensus as to our Ideology - MMA`s & PPP`s points of views differ.

(When Tatari conquered Iraq they burned all the libraries and books ..does anyone think WHY??)

The Tataris managed to ransack Baghdad because the Muslims were too busy with their holy books and resolving their religious issues.

trhis is all rubbish
there is no text book better than Quran, and we should learn and understand what It is saying to us, and try to evolve science using Quran, our ancestors did, why cant we,
All the great muslim scholars and scientist of Islam were scholars of Quran too, they did invent and evolve science, no body called them mullah,
Till now mullaism is being taught to us thats why we know there is some specie as mullah, but Quran does not tell us that, Quran is to read by every person, not jut by mullahs,
We need well educated people with the know of our Ideology to write textbooks for us, else these books will create another generation who will be GHULAM of angraiz, thats what they want.
When Tatari conquered Iraq they burned all the libraries and books ..does anyone think WHY??