An Indian in Pakistan

#184 by jang
//...The key is to be on guard against the paki military establishment who is likely to play all kinds of games in their power struggles, using terrorism as one tool, while simultaneously using the bohomie in making progress locally vis-a-vis hindu-muslim communal conflicts...//

Exactly. Internal reconciliation between hindus and muslims must continue and any help from any quarters is welcome.

But indians need to be very careful regarding paki military establishment and its followers and hangers-on. Because - Jihad still continues and will continue for any foreseeable future. So it pays to guard against people (like tahmed) who are trying sweep the jihadi menace under carpet.

nooralain #185
imo, Pakistani apprehensions about RSS and Hindutva have nothing to do with it.

For instance, it will be interesting to see how the issue of inclusion/elimination of verses on armed jihad from textbooks is resolved. So far noone influential has taken a stand against such inclusion, since these verses are considered inseparable from religion.

Now on what basis would people who support verses on armed jihad being `preached` to children for religious reasons, then turn around and oppose `practice` of armed jihad by jihadi organisations?

On the basis that only the state can decide what is jihad, perhaps. Well, the various state organs, Army, Parliament, political parties are all unanimous in their opinion that fighting in Kashmir is jihad.

So that is also that.

MaheshG #181 Murder is murder. Regardless of the domicile of the murderer and regardless of the excuse given for the murder. And too many murders in the name of religion have been committed in India for any Indian to point fingers at Pakistan without having the other three fingers pointed to India.

Of course, that wont stop the hindutva parrots on chowk from pointing fingers day in and day out at Pakistan...and that is fine.

MaheshG #182 On your question regarding what Pakistan and India can do to make the peace process real, I think the answer was best given by the philospher Diogenes when asked by Alexander the Great what he could do for him. The answer was, ``Step aside, so you dont block the sun``.

Thus, the best thing the indian and pakistan governments can do is to step aside and let the sun shine in. The sun in this case being the imperitives of economics, culture and global trends.

This in fact is essentially what the two governments did when they ``stepped aside`` by letting the cricket matches proceed and by opening up the borders a bit to allow thousands of indian fans to come to Pakistan. I dont know if you have read ``Jihad and McWorld``, the best selling book on the subject, but that provides an interesting perspective to what is happening in the subcontinent. While much credit goes to current leadership in both countries, the ultimate factor is McWorld (i.e. global trends) as applied in the cultural and economic context of the subcontinent.

Does this make sense to you?

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i`m not addressing this to anyone in particular, because i`m not sure who to address it to. . .

i think we as pakistanis should address the issue of the jihadis. but as i said earlier, perhaps some of us are afraid to. i know i am. but i think that we cannot sweep the issue of the jihadis under the carpet because while they declare that they will get the indians out of kashmir, they will also get those of us in pakistan who are in struggle against their struggle. i know they would get me. i know they would get some of my friends. and i would prefer that they not `get` any of us: indians and pakistanis.

i am currently taking courses having to do with conflict resolution. and most, if not all of my papers are ultimately connected to pakistan and india, because the conflict between us has been part of most, or all of our lives. and it has affected us all in many ways, some more than others, some as mohar said directly and indirectly, and as invulnerable as we all try to sound, we are very vulnerable to attacks. and so i feel that jang is correct in saying that there is value in people to people interaction, and the value is in healing. . .

but one cannot ignore the fact that healing is not going to be readily felt or accepted as long as important issues are ignored, or if we keep throwing the ball back at each other with an attack or a justification for it. i have heard and read `jihadi` statements, and i have heard and read those who are part of the VHP and RSS. . .the one and only comparison that can be made between these groups which counts is that they both want to return to a past which is free of pluralism, a past which quite frankly none of them can recover except by killing. and we as intelligent indians and pakistanis are only too aware of this.

so yes, we need these person to person interactions. this bonhomie. we need to find things that perhaps we share in common, but we also need to keep those things we have in common in mind as we talk through the more complex and difficult issues. and here on chowk, a microcosm of the pak-india conflict occurs on almost a daily basis, and my question is what good does it do to fling labels of jihadist and hindutvist each other`s way, and avoid the real issues that we feel vulnerable about? looking at every single board, i see no good coming out of it whatsoever.

sadna, i did read the articles you sent me. . . .and i wanted to let you know that i understand. but definitely there is more involved than just understanding. but time permits me to only say this much right now. we`ve gone way off the topic of deepak`s visit, but i think that this does pertain to it as well.

#175 sadna a big ditto..(hate doing dittos because it addds nothing)

I would compare the indian stance to a typical Rahul Dravid inning. It will be a dogged unwavering stand against jihadis, nothing flashy, with a knowledge that it is for the long haul. Paki army jihadi campaign is like Sohaib`s drug-induced bursts, tactically brilliant in spots (kargill), will cause some damage, but in the end more injurious to its own team.

While I agree with sadhana that jihadi stuff is ilkely to continue (esp along the LOC), I do find value in people-people interaction and media-hyped bohomie. The value is in healing of internal hindu-muslim fissures..at least politicians will be less inclined to fish in troubled waters. For example, last bomb attacks in Mumbai were understood by public as works of (international) ummah jihadis with help of some disgruntled local muslims, but there was no mob resplonsiblity assigned to bhindi-bazar. The key is to be on guard against the paki military establishment who is likely to play all kinds of games in their power struggles, using terrorism as one tool, while simultaneously using the bohomie in making progress locally vis-a-vis hindu-muslim communal conflicts. There may be some small benefits with better trade with pakistan etc, but that value is small.

rsridhar #170 There has indeed been too much of the repetitive ``glass is half empty`` stuff going on on chowk (and worse - stupid insults and ridicule). However, there has also always been a strain of the ``glass is half full`` aspect, and currently we have three articles (veeresh, dost mittar and this one by deepak) on their recent visits to Pakistan, and all three focussing not just on the warm reception received but also other interesting things observed as only a traveller can observe. Clearly the ``confidence building measures`` envisaged by the two governments have proved unexpectedly successful - perhaps too successful for comfort on the part of hardliners on both sides who see decades of demonization of the other country is in danger of being torn to shreds within a matter of days or weeks as people get a chance to visit.

Even more important than the fact the shredding of images created through decades of propaganda are I think the economic factors. I think we will hear more and more of that in the months and years ahead once the immediate euphoria at realizing that the neighbors are not the Munster Family dissipates, and is replaced by less newsworthy but more lasting economic bonds. (I am told the economic links are already well underway, and far ahead of where the official government position is. With pakistani and indian firms collaborating via third parties in dubai.)

So, it would be interesting to see how the tone on chowk changes to reflect real-world changes taking place politically, economically and culturally.

Mohar #178,

Agree with you wholeheartedly.

Tahmed #143,

The above seems to be obviously true, but it is oversimplified. The bonhommie is real. The political tensions are also real, and the ``peace process`` may well run into trouble in the months ahead. Also real is a third aspect that you forget: economics. Both countries stand to lose a lot from continued political tensions (and lets not argue about who loses more) and both countries stand to gain a lot from reduced political tensions (and again, it would be futile to argue who gains more).

That is all I have to add to what you say.

That is definitely true. Both stand to lose economically if the peace process falls through. I would like to know, in your opinion, what steps India and Pakistan should take to make this peace process real.

Tahmed,

How are murders committed in India in the name of Hinduism affecting Pakistan? It`s not as if India is sending Hindu Jehadis into Pakistan to kill Muslims, no?

HP
//....are you using soap regularly now? ...//

soap (simple object access protocol) ? Sure - I use it all the time. I mean who doesn`t, these days? :)))

noor
//..which is exactly how i feel. . .let us not run away from these facts...//

I am glad. But unfortunately - most pakis in this board squeal around like wounded pigs as soon as somebody says ``but what about jihad``?

Paki masses may be friendly, hospitable, don`t charge for cab and all that ... but for ``ordinary`` folks like us who have taken the brunt of jihadi forces, directly and indirectly, it will take more than that to be convinced.

As long as jihadis are actively collecting money to the order of millions of rupees ... killings are going on in kashmir and elsewhere .... Mushy is ranting about core issue ... ordinary folks( not so large-hearted ) like us would NOT feel entirely comfortable.

In fact - when pakis like tahmed jump up and down and then run away from issue of jihad - it makes us wonder. For years, pakis denied that they are executing a open jihad against Indians. But finally the truth came out - that fact was established. And now - the same folks are trying to sweep the fact under the carpet. The new excuse is - let`s just talk about friendship and good things. Don`t bother us about jihad.

That`s not going to work.

tahmed
//...is he really from the same country as some of these jerks we have been putting up with?..//

Of course he is. See - that`s how democratic societies work. Diefferent opinions, different perceptions all jostling together - which is necessary to keep balance in any society.

You being bred in a Paki Military stable - your strait-jacketed mind wouldn`t understand that.

tahmed
//...Senior Camp Follower (SCF), ...You screw up once, and I will say.... You are fir-r-r-r-edd!! ...//

Well, sure - if that`s what keeps you going during these difficult times.

But it`s a matter of perceptions. I see myself as your big-daddy ..... whipping your a%% every once in a while to keep you in line. I admit - it`s a tough job. But somebody has to do it :)

sadna,
everything you have said reminds me of the question veeresh asked nazar hayat khan on his article board, the question as to whether Kashmir is an more of an albatross around the neck of Pakistan rather than India. i think the answer is one that quite a few may be afraid to give. quite a few pakistanis, that is.

nooralain #167
You are welcome. I agree with all of mohar11`s #163, but donot see any way that the jihadis will stop coming over.

IMO, the whole proxy war arrangement is too neat and too low cost for the Pakistani establishment to end it - firstly, such jihadi collections donot cost the Pakistani upper classes, the government or the Army a paisa- infact funds collected this way come mostly from people too poor to pay taxes. So the Army doesnot have to spare anything from their defense budget.

Fighting Indians in the jihad doesnot cost anything in Pakistani Army manpower either, as jihadis are civilians willingly going to their deaths, to some extent from the class too poor to demand different answers to these so-called burning issues.

As is clear from posters` reactions on chowk(and media), other classes in Pakistan aren`t so hot about demanding different answers either, apparently being under the impression that jihadis are keeping Pakistanis safe by killing RSS/Shiv Sena/BJP workers in India(RSS/Thackeray/BJP are always brought up by Pakistanis when jihad is mentioned).

I also donot see likelihood of India making ANY concessions to Pakistani jihadis. I also donot see Pakistani Army and Pakistani jihadis letting Kashmiri fighters chart their own course in J&K. So that is that.