An Indian in Pakistan

Deepak:

...hope the goodwill breeds genuine warmth and friendship...ok perhaps am asking for too much...will settle for tolerant warmth...

rgds,

t

I love this....

``Whenever the giant screen in the stadium shows a politician, the crowd gets into shouts of `LOTA LOTA` (symbolizing double sided and turncoat). ``

and to think certain Pakistanis don`t think their country is fit for democracy. A people that politically aware and sophisticated deserve nothing but democracy.

arjun and gujjubania. . .

thank you for reminding us again and again of the atrocities and senseless murders that a number of pakistanis have committed against YOUR people as well as OUR own. we of course will never be able to compare to your ``peace-loving`` folks now, will we? to your `who gives a rat`s ass about the 100 most influential people in time magazine`, to your incredible technological capabilities.

time magazine is not the god of influential people, it`s not the god of anything really.

and all pakistanis are not members of the focking jihad council. if anything, some of us, ourselves, would be targeted by such `men`.

but you don`t care about such subtleties. . .you just want to be bastards yourselves to prove how bastardly the pakistani qaum is. do that all you want, but you cannot deny the experience of the sapras in pakistan, you cannot possibly `rain on their parade` you cannot do that just as much as i cannot deny that what happened to saurav kalia and those with him, and the whole idea of war and murder is barbaric.

we know what high regard you hold us pakistanis in. allow for someone who isn`t utterly polluted and blinded by hatred as you are to share his experience. or is every indian who isn`t like you and chooses to see the good in `pakis` a soppy fool?

arjun, gujjubania and nooralain....

your friggin ignorance and hatred clouds the fact that this is article is about the average joe not the damn army or the politicians. i think its cheesy for you to bring up Lt.Kalia...which army hasnt gone through that...you think the million plus Indian army doesnt have rapists,child molestors,ISI spies,nose-pickers?dont give me that bs

the point is that the average schmuck like me gives a shit about his neighbour..its not some marketing ploy but infact genuine affection ...Why?

my banal answer : let`s be friends goddamit! :) (and my gf is indian).

Aakar`s and Deepak`s articles do confirm the fact that most Pakistanis are not jehadis. But does it say anything about the society in general?

I am sure Muslims visiting Modi`s Gujarat will have similar tales to tell about how friendly the Gujaratis were but to go from there to Gujarat being the epitome of tolerant society? Will that be well reserved?

I am glad the series went off well and kudos to Pakistanis for being such gracious hosts. But I really wish people would stop going overboard with their praises. On the other board Aakar has claimed that Pakistan is a pluralistic society. Why? Because the Pakistani team sported a Hindu and a Christian.

If we are to generalize based on few experiences then I am sure people who have been at the receiving end of the riots are equally justified in claiming that all Hindus and Muslims are monsters. Haven`t we seen enough of those?

The experiences from this trip shouldn`t be generalized. I am sure 95% of the Indians going to Pakistan will have pleasant experiences to relate. That does not make Pakistanis pluralistic and open minded. What counts in the end is how the society in general treats its minorities. Pakistan is an Islamic society. Not a pluralistic Islamic society (Aakar`s gem!) where the minorities do not have any rights.

Similarly India sporting a few Muslims in its team does not make it a pluralistic secular socieity. What matters is its constitution and how well the constitution is followed in spirit. In that respect, India comes out looking a lot better than Pakistan.

A few aira gaira incidents of bhai-chara are not enough. Let Pakistan drop Kashmir as its core issue and back off from sponsoring Jehad in Kashmir then one can go ahead and make all kinds of gooey statements. Till then let`s limit relating the experiences to what they are. Let`s not extrapolate from them.

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stuka # 18:

Pakistan has democracy.

I suggest that you visit Arab, Chinese, North Korean, select Latin American websites and leave pro-democracy messages there.

Deepak:

Good article, but its shortness left our desire for more unsatiated.

Imho, you must accept Amir Ansari`s invitation to visit Karachi but ask him for hosting you :-)

You have same invitation from my side for Mardan and Peshawar.

You will enjoy the ethnic diversity of Pakistan, but unlike India, Pakistan has one advantage - people from various provinces have intermingled more. You can easily pass as an Urdu speaking resident of Peshawar. All Pakistani ethnic groups have fair amount of representation in all other provinces.

#19

Go Noori

Deepak

Lhaur Lhaur eh!!!

I left before the kirkat started, but was there for a long time (in and out of the city) this time on my visit to Pakistan, Lhaur is an amazing city, city of my nankey parnankey as my nani keeps reminding me!

I hope you guys make it over for Basant, its a really amazing atmosphere, i hope more Indians come to Pakistan to see what it is really like... we`re not that bad after all!

Temporal

Of course Pakistani ppl are not anjaan, we know what our politicians are like and not afraid to say it.

take care

Deepak,

I am glad you had a good trip to Pakistan. But one does not have to be a Bal Thackeray-type to see that this is a very slim foundation for building a relationship between the two countries. Until there is genuine institutional and on-going progress, things cannot really move forward.

What might these be? And what are the barriers? BOTH the pakistani military and politicians have historically used Kashmir as a ``defining characteristic`` of the state. Without a change in this, how can any progress take place? At the same time, the BJP has a large organized extremist fringe: Togadia, Bajrang dal etc. Why will these people agree to friendship?? It will make them irrelevant !!

The hindu sacred writings are based fundamentally on quarrels WITHIN a single extended family. Both the Mahabharata and Ramayan take this as a starting point. What do you learn from that? Do you really feel that ``we are the same`` means very much? Were not the Pandavas and Kauravas the ``same``? Yet they ended by murdering each other to the point of extinction.

oh no....I should have seen this coming....more of the pubjabi-hand-holding
candle waving , we-are-the-world-singing...nincompoops.

Let me wake you up....
See the statements that Musharraf has made over the past few days.
See the laws that are in existence in the land of the pure
See the textbooks that are used to teach in the land of the pure
See the values that great citizens of the land of the pure subscribe to..
Find out about how many intrusions have been happening
Find out how much of the bakri`s that are sacrificed get donated to the jihadis
Find out about who donates money to the madrasas that teaches hatred
against the kafirs ....
Find out about the class of officiers in the ``pure`` army and read about their
concepts of war
Learn to read Urdu and read the Pakistani urdu press....

Sucheta Potnis should be shipped to the land of the pure so that she can
go there and make it shine.

arjun,

your problem is that YOUR moral courage has been where the sun doesn`t shine the whole entire time. go on. . go on. . .you just sound like a frightened pygmy, no wait, that is insulting to pygmies. you sound very very frightened, as well you should be. i know i am. but i`m not going to be talking about police sponsored muslim brutality against christians for years and years to come. i`m going to go beyond this. and i suggest you do the same as well.

isn`t it interesting that you keep talking about groupthink, groupthink, groupthink as if it was a baaaad thing, and you`re not too far from it yourself.

and have i told you lately that i love you?

ahmadzai,
you are truly deluding yourself. pakistan does not have democracy and will not have democracy until the army is in control, and the establishment supporting the army collapses . .and the army is in control. but please, feel free to continue with your delusions. aren`t they what keeps our pak sar zameen, shaad baad?

Deepak...

You are welcome...

Be sure to let us Chowkies know when you come next time... Lahoris like myself would love to arrange a dinner for Indian guests :)



Nooralain,

You are quite correct... all the British names of cities, towns, and roads were changed. South Asian Names were kept whether they were Hindu, muslim or Sikh as a matter of state policy

So while there may no longer be any Montgommery or LyallPur, but there are places like Lakshmi Chowk, Dharampura, Sir Diyal Singh College, Sir Ganga Ram hospital, Sargodha, Vehari and all the names that are of Hindu or South Asian Origin.

Hope that helps.

nooralain at # 29:

Elections were held in Pakistan, Pakistanis voted, although PPP polled 25% votes, the parties (PML Q, NDA, MQM, PPP Sherpao, etc.) polling most votes (35%) and winning most seats are supporting President Musharraf.

If you claim Pakistan has no democracy, you will have to bring out an evidence that proves each and every thing that I listed above to the contrary.

ahmadzai,
an election does not a democracy make. if you think that `free` elections are the only thing that a democracy should be based upon, then you are in for a rude awakening. and one or two elements of democracy does not equal to pakistan has a democracy. i have no need to bring out evidence or prove any such thing to you. and just because i refuse to do that, does not make you right. pakistan is perhaps on the brink of democracy yes. . .but no, that will not come to pass as long as the military-mullah nexus is strong. if you believe that pakistan has democracy, i apologize for calling you deluded. you must have your own definition of democracy.

yasser,
thank you for responding to my query. it helps a lot. and it tells me that i have not completely forgotten things. i remember seeing the new name for davis road i think the last time i was there, and looking at ammi and saying `what?`
thank you again. : )