An Indian in Pakistan

Ahmadzai:

``Pakistan has democracy.

I suggest that you visit Arab, Chinese, North Korean, select Latin American websites and leave pro-democracy messages there. ``

Really? In which other unique democracy does a grade 22 officer lord it over the elected Prime Minister? If you are telling me you have democracy because I am Indian, I am cool with that. If you actually believe so, I feel sorry for you.

I had been suggesting for a long time that Indians do not make enough of an effort to get to know Pakistanis. This is why their opinions have tradiitonally been so extremely biased agaisnt Pakistan, i.e. they are too prone to their govts.` propoganda, and have none of their own experiences to counter it with. I have come to this conclusion after meeting so many Indians, and reading Indian news sources. This is also evident from comments of many Indians on this site.

I have always been suggesting that Pakistan would be well-advised to open up visas for Indians, even if Indians do not do the same. If you cannot bring a horse to the the water, take the water to the horse.

I think the recent cricket series has really been an eye-opener for Indians. It is so obvious to notice that. They have finally seen Pakistan in their living rooms, and it has turned out to be totally the opposite of what they have been told, all their lives. Once again, this is the argument I have been making for years on this site.

Full marks to the Indian cricket team. It handled the whole tour extremely well. Full marks to the Indians who made an effort to travel to Pakistan. They are pioneers of sorts, from an Indian point of view. And full marks to the Pakistan govt. and to the Pakistanis for treating them so well.

The key word, repeated by Indians has been, ``overwhelmed.`` This goes beyond being happy, enjoying one`s etc. The reason Indians were overwhelmed is not because Pakistanis treated them well. They were overwhelmed, because they had been tuned into a picture of Pakistan, that was totally opposite of what it actually happens to be. And they were thus never expecting the treatment they received. Many were probably initially fearful of the type of treatment they would get.

It is interesting to now see individuals like sadna, arjunm, gujjubania etc. running around for cover, as all their arguments have been turned on their heads.

Pakistan has democracy?
That`s news to me too. Guy lives in Pakistan. May be he knows a few more things then I do here.

vereesh #various: Congratulations to the Indians who took the time to visit Pakistan. All of you deserve a lot of credit. As you meet more and more of Pakistan, first hand, your views about Pakistanis are bound to change. As my views about Indians have changed, over the years, after meeting so many of them.

If you recall, we had discussed some of the points you have mentioned: specifically Pakistanis watching even anti-Pakistan Indian movies, as well as Pakistanis not being able to comprehend the concept of what an Indian Muslim is like.

A third point we discussed was that many Indians do not realize that most Pakistanis have never, or rarely ever, met a Hindu. Did you notice that?

dost-mittar #46: ``Believe it or not, I am not certain that this ``brotherly love`` will last for ever.``

I think you are missing the point. A point that I have been debating with you for some time - specifically in regards to issues like a few anti-Indian lines in textbooks not affecting anyone`s views in Pakistan. I hope you recall that I had specifically suggested that Indians` views on Pakistan would change completely if they just took the time to visit the place. And that individuals like Hoodbhoy were turning molehills into mountains by highlighting two sentences in a Pakistan Studies textbook.

What you have called, ``brotherly love`` is not that. It is just what Pakistanis are like. That is how they are. They were not putting on a show for anyone. It was natural and spontaneous. And it stretched from Karachi to Peshawar to Lahore. One cannot stage-manage something like that. And one cannot just turn it on and then turn it off, at the drop of a hat. Such things are either a part of the people`s character or they are not.

Not a single untowards incidence occured, across the length and breadth of Pakistan, with respect to India and Indians. That could not have been rehearsed in the few days, after Vajpayee`s trip.

The reason it feels like a special type of temporary, ``brotherly love`` to you, is because you were not expecting it. And because, you and others in India, have been tuned to not expect it. Those of us who reguarly mingle between Indians and Pakistanis on a daily basis, were predicting it, for a long time,to the point of encouraging the Pakistan govt. to drag Indians into Pakistan, if the Indians themselves, did not take the time to come.

If people sitting in a bus know all the Sunny Deol songs of anti-Pakistan movies, they could not have just learnt them just for this occassion. Doesn`t it indicated a certain amount of introspection and self-confidence; not to mention sense of humor? If the common guy on the street refuses to take money from the guests, it is not because he has all of a sudden fallen in love. It is because he is a normal decent friendly person. If you were to discuss some politically sensitive Indian-Pak issues with him, he would still give you the views, he thinks to be fair and correct, and has always held. He would not put on a show.

Had you visited Pakistan at any time - not just when the govts. are talking nice - I can make a bet you would have received the same hospitality. As I have been suggesting for the longest time, Pakistanis have moved on, regarding certain views of Indians. They are far more exposed to India, than Indians are to Pakistan. They passed through the current, ``introductory`` phase vis-a-vis India, that Indians are passing through vis-a-vis Pakistan, the day they watched their first Indian movie on a VCR twenty five years ago.

A whole generation of Pakistanis has grown up having a relatively good understanding of the good and bad of India. While its equivalent generation in India, has not been introduced to the good of Pakistan. Its introduction has only been to the bad of Pakistan. Perhaps this cricket series will not start an introduction to the good, also.

I will be going to India, this year. I will not be, ``overwhelmed`` by Indians. Nor will I consider their courtesy to be temporary brotherly love. Not because I don`t think they will will be courteous. But because I will be expecting it. Primarily because all the Indians I have met (hundreds) and I have been courteous to each other, even when Pakistan and India were on the brink of war.......

Perhaps next time you should wait till India and Pakistan are close to war, when you visit Pakistan. Ten bucks, you will get the same treatment.

Dost Mittar, yes Sir, Phantom of the Opera, rockmusic and leg show and close dancing et al . . . at the Islamabad Club from 17th through 25th of April . . . passes available at Nirala and hoardings all over all the ``Blue`` areas. As a point of interest, the Director included 5 young men who were trained ``Haafeez`` in the cast, and this we came to know after the play.

Romair, sirji, it is like this:- hukumats of both countries, and their frontline representatives, people like the Customs, Immigration, Soldiers, men in variety of uniforms snatching from poor people in trains etcetc . . . these will still take some time to change mindsets. Maybe they will not, for a variety of reasons.

The individual relationships need to go beyond the one on one.

I can talk what I want about to the person/s I meet in Pakistan, I argued Bangladesh versus Gujarat, Kashmir versus Kashmir, taking extreme India positions I do not take on chowk, and I was never once harangued. Yes, some people gave some wierd responses, other people told them to go to Malang.

I went to every mosque I passed, city and bus-station rest stop and small town, and prayed outside like a Hindu only to be invited in and asked to do the same (I recite the Gayatri Mantar with eyes closed, and hands folded, basically, and end with a series of ``Om``). Some places they asked me what I was praying, and I said that this is a salutation to Him, and also from me a request that I should be able to come back with my mother for a visit.

But if I try to have a street corner meeting with divergent views, I am dead meat in Pakistan. That may be one of the small differences between India and Pakistan?

I mean, we have had Indian security men working together with Pakistani security men, best of the best from both sides, hard core commandoes and motivated men, over the last few months, in connection with cricket security and other issues. I spoke with some of them too.

I am still trying to get a fix on a few things, so these are random memories as I recover from 125 hours, out of which I slept for about 15, and was on train/bus for about 65.

As for the sing-along with the Sunny Deol anti-Pak songs, be aware that I conducted a small q&a session on the outbound bus . . . the simple answer is that this is a movie/song against the bad hukumats . . . by implication current hukumats being good. I do not know of movies, but then I had not seen a Govinda movie till day before on the bus LRX-3636 from Pindi to Lahore (Skyways, carrying mark of Sugukawi Luxury Beach Resort, Hino imported 2 x 2 with video and automatic doors etcetc, speed limit adhered) . . . I do not know too much about movies, but I do not think any Indian movie will portray Pakistani PEOPLE as bad, evil, etcetc?

One more observation: your bad guys are increasingly the same as our bad guys.

Think about that.

And finally, anybody heading for the forthcoming return trip to India . . . I shall suggest that if you can take it physically then use the rough route by rail.

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Hindus in Pakistan - well I did ask many of the school bunking variety Pindi vicinity youngsters who were getting a free look at the match on the last day, and since I was with Chacha Green, in the seats next to the Pakistan gallery, I was absolutely safe, even the spooks didn`t come and sit near me.

I am sorry I am generalising. I am sorry I was scared to take a camera along. You understand, if I am saying this, how for many Indians a trip like this was under dire warnings? I met so many Indian single travellers, who were unable to bring friends along . . . because friends refused. And I saw a few single Indian women too, intrepid.

On to Pakistanis in Pakistan.

Many youngsters have never ever met a Hindu. Simple as that. They refused to believe I was one because of my beard and because our son is now six foot tall, and our surname is Malik. They thought I was joking. Next time I am going to go with a bode, ponytail, and wear defining Hindu marks.

Many youngsters think that all Hindus live life like in B-Grade Bollywood movies. Anything I said would not change their mind on that. I just do not know how to fix this. Sighs.

Many youngsters could not understand why Irfan Pathan and the other Muslim players from the Indian team were not ``theirs``. For them, the truly human and popular Indian player was Balaji, but they could not believe he did not speak Hindi/Urdu. I had to organise a chat in Tamil between an Indian spectator and Balaji at one stage, and the full enclosure went silent at that stage.

A great weapon I had was the Indian currency note - look carefully, it has 17 languages on it, two of which are Kashmiri and Urdu. I exchanged almost a full wad of Indian 10 rupee notes in the course of 3 days on this one point.

Look, it is not our fault as Indians if all we get from Pakistan is unbelievable PTV and the usual BBC/CNN patronising kind of stuff. In addition to the scenes of violence. It is not our fault as Indians if Pakistani movies don`t interest us, they hardly seem to interest Pakistanis. Waiting for individual trips will not work, because vast numbers of people will get stuck in the sentimental trip back home or the mutual gush gush.

One of the things needed is simple middle class tourism, in my opinion. A conducted tour, Lahore-Islamabad one way by motorway, thence to Murree, Taxila, Hassan Abdal, etcetc . . .back to Lahore, maybe even visit some of the battlegrounds between Lahore and Amritsar, 4 days border to border, and two free sessions to walk about in Islamabad and Lahore.

And let us clean up our acts at the visa counters and railway stations/trains, please?

veeresh,

thank you for sharing your views and insights. they have been rather lucid considering your exhaustion. now please get some rest and as much sleep as you can. : )

Right now I am into truth of observation courtesy adrelin, in between handling similar queries from friends and family here. So the views are at par with what I am telling my people here.

Simultaneously I am catching up with work.

Rest is a few hours away, after which I analyse my notes and then put forth views.

Lucid is because that`s me, and few hours before the trip, I decided I was going to keep the sentimental journey back for some future date, this one was going to be pure observations, as well as getting, provoking, reactions from people not only into cricket.

I have a soft t-shirt I wear to sleep in, from Pondicherry, yoga kind of stuff, says loudly in front ``are you saying Om``, and a variety of Hindu symobls. I also have one saffron coloured t-shirt with a Hindu slogan on it, given to me by a Pakistani friend a long time ago. I wore both.

One big time reckoning - morning breakfast at the Islamabad Regency was omlette and paratha, nothing spectacular. The parathas were exactly the way we make them at home, the way my mother makes them. (I am not allowed to eat them anymore).

Rest and sleep? The phone is ringing, and I am simply talking.

Veeresh, Dost-Mitter, Romair

This change in the Pakistani society has come only in the last 10-15 years. It would be a good subject for some one to research.

I clearly remember that in the 60s, 70s & 80s, India was perceived as an enemy by the general middle class.

I think this change has come because the people in general got disenchanted with the Islamization slogan. Also the people got disenchanted with the military. It was the combination of these two who had kept alive the bogie of India & Hindus.

There is a general feeling now that the Mullas & the Military had been playing on the India-Enemy theme for their own interests.

Some other factors also combined - like poor image of the country, home grown religious militants, lack of progress and jobs, intolerance in society (even between different Islamic sects) - and a very visible progress & stability in India. For an average thinking man, it was inevitable to compare the two. And he surmised that a blind enmity with India was not getting him or the country anywhere.

In some odd way, the possession of Bomb also helped. It took away that negative psychological element of ``Fear`` - and the power of the Indian might as an adversary. His thinking became more rational and less emotional.

I could be wrong in my analysis.

Frankly, after just 3-5 days in Pakistan, I don`t know if we should even try to compare India and Pakistan. It is not just the difference in size/scale, but it is the simple fact that the first thing that needs to be emphasised is that, fine, we are two distinctly separate countries.

On this point, I think the hukumats think so already. The people, and thus the media, need to be educated on this.

Once that is done, we can think of trying to live in peaceful coexistence. Sure, we can share common history up to a point, even if our analysis of that history differs.

Leave alone India/Pakistan, the differences are palpable even between the Amritsar to border and Lahore to border stretches. People, buildings, agriculture methods, soldiers, everything is different.

Now let us get along?

Veeresh # 76

Living like normal neighbours will be a great step & quite good enough. Like the rest of the world.

Romair#69
``What you have called, ``brotherly love`` is not that.``
When I mentioned ``brotherly love`` I meant it for both Pakistanis and Indians and not just Pakistanis. I am afraid that all this is going to disappear when political realities set in and the ``K`` word is uttered again. And this is perhaps going to come from the likes of you (whom I have always taken to be a proxy for Musharraf on chowk:-)) who will bring Kashmir into every discussion. At the height of the honeymoon, Musharraf spoke to a conclave of the most influential Indians via videolink on March 12(?). The audience asked about more cultural links, Musharraf answered Kashmir first; they asked for more visas, he answered Kashmir first; they asked for more economic links, he answered Kashmir first; they asked freer flow of news and views, he answered Kashmir first; they asked more people to people contact, he answered Kashmir first; they asked...you get the picture. It was clear to everyone that he was threatening that if things on Kashmir do not proceed to his liking, he will pull the plug on this honeymoon and unleash the jihadis in Kashmir again.

In saying what Musharraf did to Indians, he was echoing the sentiments of the Pakistani establishment, if not the ordinary Pakistani. Basically, Pakistan is not willing to put the Kashmir on the back-burner, except for the duration of the Indian elections. This is really unfortunate for Pakistan and Pakistanis. While I am all in favour of a just and fair settlement of the Kashmir issue, I also think that the Indo-Pakistan amity should not be held hostage to a solution of the Kashmir issue. This is especially true for the prosperity of Pakistan and Pakistanis. India can afford to have Pakistan as its enemy and still prosper; Pakistan, on ther hand, cannot afford to carry the albatros of jihadis and Kashmir around its neck for ever.

While I witnessed a lot of love, affection and generosity personally - much more than I deserved - there was hardly an evening when one did did not see a panel discussion on TV in which one or more participants did not give exaggerated and outrageous accounts of Indian atrocities on muslims in Kashmir and elsewhere. They all emphasised what INDIA HAS TO DO to keep the peace initiative going (as if their discussion was being followed by the Indians) and very little about what Pakistan has to do for the same, the point being that Pakistan has already done more than its share. If the media is to play its role in the two countries, they must start saying nice things about the other. The Indian media are saying all the nice things about Pakistanis these days - in fact have gone ga-ga over it, but I dont see a similar rush of nice articles about India or Hindus in the Pakistani media. Here, the contrast between how the Indian media has covered Pakistani treatment of Indians and how the Pakistani media covered the overwhelming love and affection for Baby Noor and others is quite glaring.

I never thought that Pakistanis were ogres even before I went to Pakistan. I wouldn`t say that there has been no change in my perceptions after travelling all over Pakistan for two weeks-that would be saying that I am too old to learn!- (and hopefully you will read more about that visit in the coming days), but you wont see any substantive changes in my views.

veeresh:

look forward to your write up:)

ask your cable provider to grab geo or ary from the satellites...;)

t

Veeresh#76
Couldn`t agree more!
``Many youngsters have never ever met a Hindu.``
This is generally true of Panjab but may not be true of Sindhis outside Pakistan. In fact, I did see a hindu woman in the first class waiting room of the Rohri railway station (Rohri is the main railway junction) across the Sindh river from Sukkur city in the interior of Sindh. She did not show any sign of insecurity. I certainly could not have have identified the accompanyin male as Hindu as he was wearing the same `qaumi libaas` (shalwar kameez) as every other Pakistani. I also met a couple of Sindhi Hindus at the Gurudwara Dera Saheb in Lahore. They too were dressed in qaumi libaas.
Interestingly, almost everyone we met in Lahore knew a Hindu family, but it was the same Hindu family - a certain family of Sargodha. This gentleman is quite famous in Sargodha as well. Since his house is very close to the house where my wife was born, we visited his house. Unfortunately, nobody was at home except an old, slightly demented woman. We were told that most of the family has now left for the States.
On our return to Delhi, we mentioned about this family to my mother-in-law, who is from Sargodha. Surprisingly, she not only knew about the family but was also distantly related to it. The story, according to her, was that the family had very large landholdings (they still do) and he chose to convert to Islam rather than go to India. Obviously, they either did not convert or it was a temporary conversion of convenience.

NHK#75
``This change in the Pakistani society has come only in the last 10-15 years. It would be a good subject for some one to research.``
Yes. I think that the change has been more pronounced in the last 3-4 years and has particularly affected Pakistan`s civil society, i.e., English reading people. I think that in addition to the factors you listed, the isolation of Pakistan in the world, including the islamic world, may also have something to do with it.