Declarations of Faith and The National Identity

#41 by ahmadzai & #45 by harish_hyd

Why do we always have to compete on who is worse? Both Pakistan and India have a history of gross human rights violations against minorities, which continues without any substantial signs of change. Thanks.

harish-hyd at # 45:

angggggh. Your answer is totally wrong. You get 0/100. You are out of the race. Those who killed Bengalis were not elected representatives of the people.

If ever I take a guess now, its on your IQ. I am sure it has not reached the +ive numbers yet.

Cheers.

:-)

Romair,

The debate about who is, and who is not a Muslim … reminds me of a joke ... about a blind man, in a dark room, trying to find a black cat, that isn’t there. There are several layers of ironies and counter-ironies at play here ...

This whole debate is an inconsequential one … except perhaps for folks like Urstruly, tahmed, and now, the honorable Isphahani Sahib.


Isphahani Sahib …

You keep rambling about Massih #1, 2, 3 … what’s the deal? Where are you getting this information??? I am tempted to guess you are severely misinformed. Maybe you should try to articulate simple thoughts in simple words.

Ahmadi viewpoint is that … Mirza Sahib is the Issa-ibne-Marriam and the Imam Mahdi of our age as foretold by prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and a prophet of God... Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) will always remain the noblest of all prophets ... Quran is the complete, final religion from Allah. Tell me again what`s bothering you ...

Your latest comment … that Muhammad was not persecuted … is a new one. I guess all the incidents of him being stoned in streets of Taif, ridiculed and harrassed in Mecca, held in siege with attempts to kill, being forced to flee, fighting invading armies from Mecca … is all media hype! Is it CNN … or Al-Jazera that came up with all these stories? I am lost …

The point remains ... if Ahmadis follow Quran ... pray to Allah ... calim to be Muslims ... no one can justifiably declare them otherwise...

[... getting into a debate with you will probably be a bad idea ... maybe I should start smoking whatever you are on ...]

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#41 by ahmadzai

[I think sociologists and political scientists should also start studying whether there is ANY country in the world other than India where innocent minorities have been killed.......]

Sure, there is a country that went one step further. It perpetrated a genocide, the likes of which has not been seen in a while, on its own countrymen belonging to the eastern wing just because it refused to accept the language that the western wing tried to impose on it. The soldiers from the western wing massacred hundreds of thousands of Bengalis, raped thousands of Bengali women and gleefully said they were only helping purify Bengali race as they were not Muslim enough. Wanna take a guess?

#43 by nazarhayatkhan on June 10, 2004 3:18am PT

``....Does that mean that God has lost the option of changing his mind for all times; and is unable to send yet another messenger?.....``

Strictly speaking this is another cogent argument against the omnipotency of the God,-


God is powerless before his own words!! His future actions are determined by his own words said in the past.

QED

But strange are his ways.........

1400 years ago, God told his messenger that he was the last Prophet.

Does that mean that God has lost the option of changing his mind for all times; and is unable to send yet another messenger?

We do not know what is in God`s mind. Maybe, it is better to leave the ways of the Cosmic to itself; and not give final judgements based on little knowledge.

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sparchus at # 39:

I think sociologists and political scientists should also start studying whether there is ANY country in the world other than India where innocent minorities have been killed under a pogrom by people who have been voted into power by the citizens, er I mean the communal violence and killings have been made by those elected to power and who are running scotch free.

umma is a b!tch with twenty dogs chasing her and she trying to hide here and there in panic...this b!tch keeps changing faces...

Arjun sb:

The point I was trying to make was that Catholic, Baptists, etc. etc, may have different interpretation of their respective sects vis-a-vis religion, but none of these sects defy the basic principle of Christianity which is the centrality of Christ as a divine entity/God/etc. etc.

I hope this helps!

I have never suggested that I support/condone or submit to any school of thought who issue fatwas declaring anyone kaffirs. Similarly, I do not endorse, support or condone any of the laws which are in place presently that encourage ppl to persecute ppl that are considered to be non-Muslims under the so called laws.

nikki,
could not have agreed more. i think sociologists should start studying whether there is ANY nation in the world where muslims if they are not in a majority are at peace with people of other communities.

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http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_31-10-2003_pg3_7

[The cruel fact behind this conversion is that ‘khatam-e-nabuwwat` gatherings in various parts of Pakistan constantly threaten the Qadianis with vigilante action while the National Assembly literally serves as the whistle-blower on low-level government employees who still happen to be Qadianis]

Daily Times, Pakistan
Friday, October 31, 2003

Convert Or Face Violence!
By Khaled Ahmed

While there is rampant sectarianism in evidence in Pakistan, there is also a subliminal pressure on the sects to convert to the mainstream. When members of other sects or religious communities convert under conditions of duress there is much jubilation among the orthodox, which is allowed to be expressed in the Urdu press. But are such conversions, whenever they happen, really genuine?

According to ‘Nawa-e-Waqt` (3 October 2003) religious leaders gathered in Chiniot- Chenabnagar for ‘khatam-e-nabuwwat` accused the government of being soft on Qadianis who were being employed in key posts (kaleedi) and even posted in the Auqaf Department. They said the Qadianis were busy conspiring against Islam and were freely violating laws enforced against them. The conference was addressed by Maulana Fazlur Rehman of JUI and Liaquat Baloch of Jama`at-e Islami in addition to dozens of other religious leaders. According to ‘Jang`, the Chenabnagar meeting warned the government that the Qadianis had become emboldened (hauslay barh gayay). They also said that behind the façade of the NGOs, the spread of Qadiani faith, Judaism and Christianity would not be tolerated and that a movement could be launched against the government on it.

There are severe disabilities imposed on the Qadianis. They were apostatised under a PPP majority in parliament and General Zia then compounded the deed by barring them from saying the ‘kalima` and calling a mosque a mosque. There is a whole annual tome of trumped up court cases against them, which shock the outside world. There are many irrational sides to the state of Pakistan of which the persecution of the Qadianis is one. The ‘khatam-e-nabuwwat` tradition in the country generally serves to rouse the common man and make him feel disgruntled against an erring state that ``gives protection to a community that is conspiring with the Jews``. The noise made about the so-called ‘kaleedi` jobs has gone on even after the virtual ouster of the Qadianis from important areas of state employment. The National Assembly in its October session (27 October 2003) went into the question of minority representation in the bureaucracy and was told that there were two Qadianis and nine Christians in the culture ministry in the federal government. There was also news in the press (daily ‘Insaf`) the same day that a dozen members of the Qadiani community in Punjab had converted to Islam amid much merrymaking on the part of the Sunni community. The cruel fact behind this conversion is that ‘khatam-e-nabuwwat` gatherings in various parts of Pakistan constantly threaten the Qadianis with vigilante action while the National Assembly literally serves as the whistle-blower on low-level government employees who still happen to be Qadianis. The message is: convert or face violence.