My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!

Dost Mittar 117

Thankyou for your support and kind words.

I am going to ignore ballu from now on until he reforms his ways and ceases the personal attacks.

sadna,

``You are equating collecting bricks for a temple which couldnot be built in 10 years with jehad funds explicitly collected for killing Indians. I hope Indian Muslims are suitably grateful to Pakistanis for this work of faith. ``

a) Indian army is doing its fair share of killing of average kashmiris thank you, thanks to tax payer money. Worse than jehadis? Well, yeah...nationalism is the scourage of the past two centuries..and mother India seems to be wanting to make up for lost time.

b) How nice of you to show your hindutvist credentials...would you have us think that the mentality behind gujrat massacre and destruction of babri mosque not the same? It`s more than about shipping bricks...it`s giving credence to the whole agenda...

dost-mittar, veeresh
Did either of you perhaps `see` the Indus as in the river Indus? If you did, could you please write a little about it in any of your subsequent articles.. ?

C`mon guys, all this debate on which city is better is utterly puerile. At the risk of sounding hackneyed, I must say it sounds very much like the debate on whose mother is better! Of course, everyone likes his own city and some bias cannot be ruled out. However what impressed me the most was the kind of care Yasser and Aisha, NHK, semi, sobia et al took of Dost-Mittar and his family. The soul of Lahore resides in the heart of such people. Ask yourself this question- Would anyone in Delhi/Bombay, who you know only through a public site, take such good care of you or show such mehmaan-nawazi. Honestly, I very much doubt. That is why I consider Indian metros to be soulless concrete jungles! Dont jump on me if you`re from any of these cities, I am only stating the truth. I know some of you may say that people like Yasser/Aisha, semi, sobia etc dont represent the ``average`` Pakistani and you may be right. But let us take some time to express our gratitude to the aforementioned Pakistanis who greeted Dost Mittar with such warmth. These are the gems of Pakistan and though we may disagree with them over some ideological issues, the fact remains that they are very good humans...

#108 by Mantolives on April 26, 2004 10:23am PT

Admit that you lied to everyone on the board by ascribing falsities just in order to get even. And apologize for you meanness.

ally,

kiddaN? puttar, ai har vari saaday lafz paRh ke `cheerleading` karnay di ki lohR ai?! ;-) *hug*

rab rakkh!

anil,

i`m afraid i can`t answer any of your questions about the subsequent transformation, because i haven`t lived in lahore for most of my life. after partition, there was definitely a muslim majority. . .i gather that even if some had wanted to stay, the violence perpetrated upon non-muslims, especially sikhs and hindus was such that they had to leave.

in the nine years that i lived in lahore from when i was six until i was fifteen, i do not recall seeing a hindu temple or a structure similar to a temple, but then i hardly ever frequented the old city and i cannot speak to what is or is not there.

there are still quite a few non-muslims who live in lahore. there is a fairly considerable population of christians, with churches from the raj and new ones still in place. we attended the church on waris road and i do not recall how old that church is. there is also a parsi population, but i think feroz once commented on that it is dwindling, or perhaps i misunderstood. he can speak more to that. and someone else will have to tell you what happened as the city transformed. i`m not sure if you`re referring to the psyche, or the business of everyday life, which nevertheless involves the psyche.

don`t know if this answers your question, but i think this may be as far as i can go with this one : )

regards.
n~

104 go Noorie!

Punjabi Zulu

are u in London?

Hi Nooralain (#60):

Thanks for the information on signs of non-islamic heritage of Lahore. I know from the hisotrical reading that I have done that Lahore was a majority Hindu - Sikh city before partition, and I am curious to know about its transformation from non-islamic majority to islamic majority and what happened during this transformation and how sudden was the transformation.

I know the worshipping patterns of Hindus and Sikhs who certainly have a lot of temples, gurudwaras and samadhis etc. etc. Therefore, absence of hindu temples or even structures in the city is intriguing social phenomena in my mind. It raises more inquiry in my mind. I know an old mosque (Qwaate-Islam) near Qutab Minar in New Delhi, has defaced statues from the previous temples on its foundation walls. The same goes about the mosque in Benaras, near Vishwanath Temple. May be complete absence of hindu temple structure probably speaks of muslim anger / fury at the time of partition, if it was sudden, or gradual desecration of these places of worship of older inhabitants over a longer period time would probably mean something else.

Another question, I have does it not come to probing minds of subsequent generations of Lahore inhabitants to question what happened in that city as it transformed from a non-islamic majority to a muslim majority, Lahore was unique in this respect? Such a transtion did not happen in anyother city on the sub continent, and I often wonder if any other city in the world saw such a transition in such a short period.

Thanks.
Anil

sridhar. .
you are welcome. afterall, some bias is better than no bias at all. : )

re:#103 by Romair
Dude,
Delhi is cosmopolitan. Does that word mean anything to u?
If quality is what u go by, Madras, Calcutta score much above La-whore! Get it dude!
What an idiot!
sridhar

re:#102 by tahmed32
tahmed sahib,
Old Delhi has its charms and history but really there is not much beyond that.
All the action is in New Delhi or Lutyen`s Delhi. One need to go to Connaught place and hang out there to get the feel of that place (as i used to do as a teenager!). One can also visit parliament house and see how unruly the MPs of the world`s largest democracy are! Rashtrapati Bhavan is also full of history and i believe, is open to public on certani days. Delhi is dotted with beautiful gardens. I had a relative near Lodhi garden. Ajmal Khan Park near Karolbagh is one place i used to hang out with other friends in the morning. There was a guy who taught us yoga for sometime and then disappeared! Also, the shopping center in Karolbagh (Ajmal Khan road?) was a big attraction. For us kids, it was kulfi, chat etc.

Most of the other sites are ``samadhis`` of this leader or that leader. As my aunt visiting Delhi from Madras once said: Delhi is full of samadhis.
I guess one gets to love the place one is brought up in. I am a third generation Delhite and i just can`t get Delhi out of my system even after more than 10 years in US.
Sridhar

re:#104 by nooralain
Thanks for your post. It does take away some bias i had earlier.
Sridhar

You know things are improving when....bureaucrats start competing based on service provided to the public.

``For every 10 visas issued by India to Pakistani nationals, Pakistan has issued 19 to Indians in the first quarter of this year that marked the high point in Indo-Pakistan relations. `` (Dawn).

Now they are competing on number of visas issued and waiting time involved.

Dear Romair (#103):

``Delhi may have a bigger cricket stadium than Lahore. But is the cricket stadium built on Mughlia architecture, like Ghaddafi Stadium? It may have more flights coming into its airport, but is the airport trying to copy JFK, or is it designed along its old Mughlia roots, like Lahore`s? Is the biggest university in Delhi and the biggest entertainment center built along Mughlia architecture like LUMS and Al-hamra in Lahore?

``Is Ghalib`s BalliMaran being looked after as well as Iqbal`s Haveli? Are young Delhiwallahs turning their Shakespeare`s Urdu poetry into rock songs, like Lahoris are doing to Iqbal`s verse s? Does the language of Delhi have its own accent? Does Delhi even have have a language of its own, anymore? Do the majority of people in Dehli even speak their own ancestoral langauges? ``

``Does Delhi have a soul, an identity? Or does it just have tall(er) buildings? Is Delhi holding onto its own historical identity, making it unique, ... ... why visit a replica in Delhi?``

You have touched a very interesting point regarding roots of Delhi. Delhi`s previous identities have been destroyed and rebuilt according to the times, at least ten times. Delhi existed even before it adopted by Moghuls`, then by the British, and subsequently by the Punjabis. My father`s side family settled from Kashmir in a place called Katra Neel, just opposite Ballimaran. Our ancestoral home was registered in Mughal courts, I recall my father telling me when I was a child. Delhi dialect was very distinct and very sweet. Both hindus and muslims spoke it. It disappeared completely among hindus after the Punjabis came in. I know my father side cousins who never moved out of Katra Neel spoke it just as muslims in Jama Masjid area spoke.

The Punjabi phase of Delhi started to change in early 80s when the Biharis and eastern U.P.`ites, and later Bangladeshis started coming in Delhi instead of going to their previous center of Calcutta. This happened because after marxists came to power in Bangla there was a general decline in the economy there. This gave Delhi`s Punjabi entreprenuers a chance to grow industries around Delhi and create new wealth. Thus Delhi became a new cultural and economic growth pole. Punjabi`s entreprenuerial econimic engine drove it. My father used to complain, like other old Delhiwalas of Chandni Chowk, about the Punjabi domination. This is quite similar to the complain the Veeresh has voiced about Biharis, etc. in Delhi.

This kind of attraction in Delhi makes it very unique. It has adopted to new times quite well, I do not know about Lahore or other Pakistani cities. Delhi`s adoptability is its vitality. Very unique a class in itself in India for sure. Bombay is a center of old economy. It could not bring new economy, the old economy of finance, entertainment, textile and old engineering goods have remained the growth drivers. You may already know, that Delhi is the biggest BPO center than Bangalore. Its IT industry in Gurgaon boasts more entreprenurial starts than bangalore, and showcase for you to worth visit. This adaptability this phenomenal. Its electronic market in old Delhi is much bigger than anywhere than entire South Asia. This home grown center, you would be amazed, when you go around and see, is entirely driven by Punjabi entreprenuership. Small produce produce and sell as many as 20,000 to 50,000 tape decks a month. Even Taiwan pales when you see what these home grown guys have done. You can draw a timeline of Delhi on a 10 year basis for last 100 years and you will see distinct growth and changing faces.

Airport and LUMS / IITs are symbols. Certainly more dynamic than Taj Mahal, but still symbolic. The engine is what is important. Few years ago, my friend Kanwal Rekhi visted Lahore and Islamabad and told me that military domination is so complete that Punjabi entreprenuership which is so visible in Delhi and other North Indian cities is stifled and bottled in Lahore. One of these days I would visit the route my ancestors had taken from Kashmir to Delhi there route passed through Rawalpindi, Lahore, Patiala and finally Delhi. Lahori entreprenuers who moved to Delhi after partition were responsible for its growth from 50s to 80`s. I would not be surprised if they had stayed back there Lahore would have been a greater center than it is today. Lahore`s loss, in this case, turned out to be Delhi`s gain.

Delhi`s soul is its adaptability. Khushwant Singh in a book on Delhi, compared it to a whore. Whore is certainly adoptable to new client. New and old delhiwalas have inspired revolution in India. Shah Rukh Khan is just one to mention. Shiv Nadar in IT is a proud delhiwala from South is part of its adaptibility. Adopt or die is the paradigm that drives delhiwalas. New generation of delhiwalas - from biharis, bengalis, haryanavis will be part of this whore that according to Khushwant Singh his Delhi is.

Go visit and see the reasons for Delhi`s vitality. It is entreprenuership, be it in wholesale, be in electronic, be it in IT, be it in BPO, be it in fashion - Ritu Beri and many others are from Delhi, or be it in politics. The only decadent part is centeral governments bureaucrats. The charge de affairs of the U.S. embassy when visiting my plant in NOIDA export zone told me that if I want to just host a party the U.S. ambassador`s house is available to Indo Americans, they will send out invitations and we foot the bill. The interesting remark he made was you will see the all the husslers of Delhi, talkers of Delhi, politicians of Delhi and bureaucrats of Delhi will show up and enjoy. I asked him what will I get in return, his remark rings my ears still, that one more fire in Delhi with fuel paid for by you. Delhi has been burnt down many times and built again many times. Has Lahore been?
I do not know.

Anil

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