My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!

Ballukhan:
``You have no idea about culture or literature - you cannot tell a $hit of difference between Khayal and Dhrupad music- not to talk about various art forms and sub-cultures of Indian sub-continent.``
Neither can I though I visit classical concerts almost every month and have already reserved ticket to Irshad Khan`s concert this coming Sunday. Is this a new test for participating on chowk?
I have crossed swords with YLH before on TNT and Jinnah and, although I am tired of the subject, I might do so again, given YLH`s way of dragging one into a debate. And while I do not fully agree with his views, I have no doubts whatsoever about his secular credentials or his ability to articulate them whether or not he can distinguish between Khayal and Dhrupad.

tahmed32
``And i understand the gurdwaras hand out excellent daal to anyone who swings by - any light shed on this matter would be appreciated).``

The daal served at the Golden Temple is a very plain affair and you dont have to go to Amritsar for that, the gurudwara at Dera Saheb facing the Lahore Qila provides similar fare.
But if your purpose is taste, I would suggest that you visit your nearest Gurudwara in Washington area on any Sunday, especially when the langar is sponsored by some bigwig of Washington. North American gurudwaras have turned the original idea of the community soup kitchen into veritable feasts. But those in India are sticking to the original concept; moreover the standards of hygene used in washing dishes will, in all probability, not meet your standards.

Romair:

...you miss the thrust...and mix up `attachment` and `loyalty`...this is not about getting you wrong or whether you like TO or not! :)

...imho, there is no greater test for `loyalty` to a city one resides in...any city...and volunteer time and money for its enhancement and amelioration...

rgds,

t

temporal #112: Toronto is far too immigrant-based now to have the same loyalties that a city like Montreal would have. 52% of the population is immigrant, in Toronto. This is not to say that immigrants aren`t loyal to Toronto. However, their loyalties will always be divided amongst their homeland and the city they are in. And their main reason of moving to the city is generally economic, i.e. they just ended up there. I (and you) could have probably easily eded up in Calgary or Vancouver, or London or New York.

Don`t get me wrong, I really like Toronto. I have seen most big cities in USA and a few in Europe. Nothing compares to Toronto. I would never move to Montreal or Vancouver or New York or even San Jose (or Lahore). But if I have ten units of loyalty, five of them belong to cities in Pakistan. While most of the people in Montreal (not counting French-speaking Arab immigrants) will have all ten units devoted to their city.

There is a difference between liking a city and having a generational loyalty to it........

mahesh G2

thank you for the correction. my spelling abilities have deteriorated with age. : )

Romair #61:

…this caught my attention:… Torontonians really don`t have too much of a loyalty to their city. They (like me) are there for the facilities and the comfortable lifestyles…

…since i do not read all your khutbas please forgive me in advance if you have retracted or corrected the above misleading quote either earlier or later;)

…as a torontonian i am considering lodging a protest directly with the visiting dalai lama!

…not only old time torontonians but even recent immigrants from all over the world in general and india-pakistan in particular take pride in this city they call home and have actively volunteered their time and services to raise funds for:

art gallery of ontario
united way appeal
royal ontario museum
hospital for sick children
the cancer society
children’s aid society

...and numerous other agencies and organisations to mention…and am intentionally not mentioning ethnic or parochial affairs...

rgds,

t

Ballu Khan 99,

I suppose calling me `uncouth`, `unsophisticated`, `uneducated` ... really sealed the argument in your favor... I bow down to your brilliance oh Great Maharaj.

I will not return the compliments though. Let the world witness your brilliant arguments.


-YLH

An example of Ballu Khan`s brilliant intellectual arguments:

Post 99

He writes:

You are uncouth and un-civilized to get into a reasonable intellectual discussion. You are not properly educated which I can very well see from your grasp of various issues on various other issues and topics on Chowk. You have no idea about culture or literature - you cannot tell a $hit of difference between Khayal and Dhrupad music- not to talk about various art forms and sub-cultures of Indian sub-continent. You are pi$$ing all over the board just because I have pulverized your reading of the frking TNT as a stupid minority movement

ijaz gul #101 you are quite right. Even the name panjabi is neither ethnic, nor religious, nor even linguistic: after all, it simply translates into ``Inhabitant of the land of the five waters``. Anyone who decides to lives in the panjab therefore by definition becomes a Panjabi. It is amusing as well as instructive that musharaff (from an urdu speaking family), speaks english with a panjabi accent (picked up no doubt unconsciously after many years spent in the company of panjabi army officers). Over the past couple of decades, many pathan families have resettled in rawalpindi and islamabad, and many UP families have resettled from karachi in lahore and islamabad. In 1971, I saw bengladeshis freely celebrating their liberation from us ;-) in rawalpindi without anyone bothering them (some people griped a bit about these people celebrating while we mourned the break up, but that is all).

Even Urdu has found a new home in the Panjab, and panjabi poets and writers from lahore (Manto, Ahmed Nadeem Qasmi, Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Iqbal) have contributed much to keeping Urdu alive in the 20th century.

Interestingly, panjabi culture is being adopted by other communities as well. A couple of weeks back, there was a big bhhangra show in Washington DC, where the WP reported on the show and discussed its origins in rural panjab but is now picking up in the west (due largely to the south asian expats) and how even Brittany Spears now has a song that is meant to go with the bhhangra. (this last may be a sign of the decline and fall of panjabi culture, even as our friends in karachi maintain that the term is an oxymoron).

Banjaara #75
``The Jehad Funds are collected in the mosque on a Friday, and Dost-mittar being an aethist does not yet offer his namaz inspite of my strenous efforts, hence, he never witnessed any of these activities, but it is a fact and no one can deny it. I will not defend this action nor condemn it, just like the donation of millions of brick by ordinary Hindus in India and abroad to the VHP for Kaar Seva in Ayodhya after the demolition of Babri Masjid-Ram Janam Bhumi is a work of faith, I have no right to condemn or deny. ``

You are equating collecting bricks for a temple which couldnot be built in 10 years with jehad funds explicitly collected for killing Indians. I hope Indian Muslims are suitably grateful to Pakistanis for this work of faith.

Nooralain #104,

Hi, it`s Telugu not Telegu.

AmmaraBatool#96
``Whereas dehli never arranged such events which allows the people of multi culture to mingle up like here in lahore on festives like ``Basant``.``
They do, actually! The Basant celebrations in Delhi were spread over a whole week. I attended one function on January 25. It was, in fact, held at Ghalib`s tomb, adjacent to the shrine of the sufi saint Nizaamuddin. A number of artists sang songs of sufis from Khusro to Meera to Bulle Shah and performed various dances. But no large-scale kite flying or partying.
Delhiites -nobody seems to use the old term Dehlvi- celebrate religious festivals as an excuse to have fun more than anything else, whether it is Holi, Diwali or Dussera. And now christian events like X-Mas, New Year`s Eve and St. Valentine`s Day are also celebrated with gusto. As for Muslims, the most talked-about parties in Delhi are the Iftaar parties held during Ramzaan, and the guests and hosts at most of them are non-muslims. If you are not invited to one of these, you are a nobody!

Romair:
I agree with everything you say about Toronto (and since someone has mentioned London, have you thought of throwing the big TO`s hat in the arena?). I only wanted to correct your use of ``the rising giant`` to describe it; it rose long ago. But Vancouver has certain geographic, climatic and scenic advantages over Toronto - so watch out in the long run!

#95

it is a mistake, i would suggest, to look at the whole (or even the majority) of pakistani punjabis as being more feudal. and being from a family that comes from a mix of landowners and `tenants`, i can tell you that not all of pakistani punjabis have that smug superiority. as many as you think have that ethnocentric bias, and that feudalistic attitude, there are just as many who don`t have that.

and i have to question this thing about linguistic concerns. i see quite a few people from the southern part of india, who either prefer not to speak in hindi, or refuse to speak it at all, and i am often surrounded by those who prefer to speak telegu for example in a group knowing that i don`t understand. but then again i am always in the midst of friends who speak a language i don`t understand. now there are those who may disagree with me, but the concept of nationhood was not necessarily embraced by ALL those over what you would call our `narrow` linguistic concerns, in the sense that some of us had no option but to choose urdu over our regional languages. and yes, perhaps this has created more of a division. . .and those from sindh can speak to that.

but as pakistani punjabis, some of us have also had to explore our roots, and reacquaint ourselves with our language, because it was not a part of our lives. punjabi was spoken around me by my elders, but not to me. and it is interesting how this varies within the extended family. some of my relatives, the generation that has passed on, has travelled throughout india, lived in various parts, and we never had that chest-thumping pride of being punjabi. it was one of our identifiers.

and of course lahore isn`t inhabited by punjabis alone. that`s rather narrow. feroz is not a punjabi, there are pathans in lahore, there are various ethnicities and nationalities who somehow manage to co-exist in spite of biases and prejudices. lahore is much more than what has been expressed here. it is lahore. it is not delhi. it has its immense beauty, and it has its immense problems. and what big city doesn`t?

and this is as honest as this punjabi pakistani on chowk can get. . .

vereesh #69: ``Hi Romair . . . thank you for the Attock write-up . . . interesting and helpful.``

You are welcome. I always enjoy telling this story. Strangely, the only ones who seem interested in it, are Indians. No one from Pakistan seems bothered about it. I guess, ``ghar ki murghi daal barabar.``

``Now, to get to your points:-``

I have about as many roots in Lahore as I have in Delhi. So I have no loyalties to either. I am just calling it, as I see it. Considering that Delhi is ranked in-between Islamabad and Karachi in rankings (based on a lot of research by Asiaweek), one would assume it is in the same league as Lahore. Since Islamabad and Karachi are in the same league.

I think you may be concentrating on quantity, in place of quality. A city is decided by quality and not quantity. And by culture and identity, rather than size and facilities. Zurich and Vancouver are regularly ranked the two best cities in the world. They are not even close to the largest cities in their region, much less the world. They are a fraction of the size of Delhi (or even Lahore), in population. But spend a month in Vancouver, and you will forget London, New York, San Francisco and LA. At least I did.

Toronto could become a bubbling efficient metropolis of 20 million, but it will never have the beauty of a Vancouver, nor the culture and identity of a Montreal. Ashwariy Rai could make just one flop movie, and Shilpa Shetty could make 20 hit movies, in a year, but people will still line up to meet Ashwariya Rai, before Shilpa Shetty. Sachin Tendulkar could score four runs and get out, and Aakash Chopra could score hundreds, but people will still want to meet Sachin Tendulkar, before Aakash Chopra.

So you need to look at quality, and not quantity, when comparing cities. Is Delhi qualitatively better than Lahore. Could you provide a comparison for Delhi, along the points I mentioned. Is it the center for any religion, language, entertainment, architecture, etc.

Delhi may have a bigger cricket stadium than Lahore. But is the cricket stadium built on Mughlia architecture, like Ghaddafi Stadium? It may have more flights coming into its airport, but is the airport trying to copy JFK, or is it designed along its old Mughlia roots, like Lahore`s? Is the biggest university in Delhi and the biggest entertainment center built along Mughlia architecture like LUMS and Al-hamra in Lahore? Is Ghalib`s BalliMaran being looked after as well as Iqbal`s Haveli? Are young Delhiwallahs turning their Shakespeare`s Urdu poetry into rock songs, like Lahoris are doing to Iqbal`s verse s? Does the language of Delhi have its own accent? Does Delhi even have have a language of its own, anymore? Do the majority of people in Dehli even speak their own ancestoral langauges?

Does Delhi have a soul, an identity? Or does it just have tall(er) buildings? Is Delhi holding onto its own historical identity, making it unique, or is it trying to become a cheaper version of Toronto? If it is trying to become Toronto, it may end up being an efficient city, with Metros. But will it have its own identity? After all, if I wanted to visit Toronto, I would just go there. Why visit a replica in Delhi?

There are a lot of Torontos in the world. But is there any other place like Lahore, or Montreal, in the world?

P.S. Toronto has the most girls in Canada, but Vancouver has the prettiest girls in North America, according to Playboy magazine. Are the girls of Delhi as good looking as the girls of Lahore? Every Indian, from Rekha to Balaji, seems to vote in favor of Lahore on this one.....

Comparisons are in general meaningless. When in Lahore, enjoy Lahore. In Delhi, check out lal qila (but avoid that cab driver I took who wasted my precious few hours in delhi by taking me to a tourist shop when I had told me to go to lal qila). In Amritsar, visit the golden temple (i understand they let us muslaa`s in. And hopefully out as well. And i understand the gurdwaras hand out excellent daal to anyone who swings by - any light shed on this matter would be appreciated).

In rajasthan, go to their many palaces (they`ll let you and your beloved sleep in the maharaja`s bedroom. if you are willing to cough up the maharaja`s price). See the saddhus at khhumb mela. from jullunder, take the train to delhi - option to travel in coach where uniformed bearers bring you outstanding food. visit the new (now a few years old) airport at calcutta, and if you get lucky you get to see indian democracy in action as the mobs take their ``deliviered via air mail`` politician out of the lounge with placards and slogans.

So, STOP comparing cities. When in Lahore, enjoy Lahore and enjoy the great people of Lahore. btw Lahoris cant drive though. although they have started learning fast the past few years when they started putting cops with white motorbikes on the intersections. Suddenly they lost their color blindness and no longer confuse red with green.