My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!

Sadna#62:
“"So I am taking the liberty of saying that this reads a bit like a Friday Times society piece without the bold lettering on names :). The followup question is, did you feel you understood the city and environment as a whole, or do you think you experienced the world of the `Upper Ten Thousand`?``

...I suspect you know the answer. I was a voyeur in the city, a tourist with the added privilege of knowing a few friends. This is certainly not a piece of investigative journalism or even socio-economic analysis, although old habits die hard :).

Romir#64
I am staying out of this slugfest of Lahore-Amritsar slugfest for now (unless I change my mind, to quote a famous chowkie) but cant resist the temptation to comment on the following:

“A good example is Montreal and Toronto in Canada. Montreal is the relatively dying ex-giant of Canada. While Toronto is the rising new giant of Canada (and of the whole world for that matter).”

It is too soon to pronounce the death of Montreal. Sure, it is not the pre-eminent city that it used to be as the centre of economic gravity in Canada has moved westward (Halifax was once more important than Toronto!), and it went through a period of decline during the three decades of political uncertainty when the prosperous anglos left the city. But the city has been staging a remarkable come-back in recent years and is currently experiencing unprecedented boom, with the highest increase in real estate prices of any Canadian city in the last two years.
And Toronto isn’t exactly the ‘rising new giant’ of Canada. It is certainly the premier city in Canada and has been for as long as I have been here; the rising new stars are in the West – Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton.

#62
I agree with your post. Do you know that the most important excavation site at Taxila is called Jalian? You know, why? “Jalian” is a corruption of the local name, Ja-Walian, as the place was renowned for being the abode of sufi saints.

“There are probably very few, if any, roads in the world that have as much history on their sidewalks, as the fifty (?? or so) miles between the borders of Islamabad and the Attock bridge”

…why stop at Attock. The whole area upto Peshawar and beyond (remember Bamyan Buddhas?) is choc-a-bloc with the remains of the Gandhar civilization. The excavations have barely scratched the surface, I was told.

Malik99#51:
“Dost-mittar sahib - Perhaps in one of your next installments you will talk about the ``quality`` of women in Islamabad.”

We did not stay long enough in Islamabad to have any meaningful comment. I did interact with a group of young girls at my hotel (who, incidentally were talking to each other in (Urdu) but they turned out to be visiting from Lahore to attend some training seminar. The only other females we ‘met’ were at Faisal mosque. My wife was wearing a sari that day and three girls came running towards us in the vast compounds of that mosque to meet us. They asked if we were from India and were keen to know our reaction to their city.

Anil#39
“Are there any temples in or around Lahore? With the majority Hindu-Sikh population of Lahore before the partition are there surviving signs of non-islamic cultural and religious heritage?”

I did not ask for it when in Lahore, but I am not aware of any functional temples. Frankly, I do not think that there any Hindus or Sikhs left in Lahore, except for a few Sikhs who look after Gurdwara Dera Saheb, also known as Ranjit Singh Dee Marhi. The only Hindu temples that I saw in Panjab were at Ketas Raj; it’s a group of seven temples (sat-ghare) around a sacred kund (pond), the highest and the latest being a temple to Durga built by Hari Singh Nalwa, the famous general of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. This place was a famous pilgrimage site for the Hindus of West Panjab. These are now architectural ruins protected by the Architectural Deptt. of Pakistan. All the statues from the temples have been destroyed or missing. The govt. of Pakistan has consistently refused permission to the Hindu migrants from the area to come back and visit the site, which they not only routinely give to the Sikhs but even encourage. The day we visited the site, all temples had been whitewashed. We were told that a group of 300 yaatris were to visit the place the next day. However, I missed reading any report in the media about this event which would have been the first such visit after the Partition.

The non-islamic cultural heritage of Lahore can be seen in the names of some buildings and streets, such as Lakshmi Chowk, Lakshmi Mansion and Ganga Ram Hospital. The secularists have successfully resisted the attempts of the islamists to change these names. There is also a grand church in Lahore located in the heart of the city. There may be other non-islamic symbols and Lahoris perhaps can shed some light on them.

gujju bania 80 . . .

a) I think that you could consider moving out from behind the rather imperfect mask of internet anonymity before throwing stones on those of us who choose to be forthright and identifiable. You also need to get a simple lesson in how wars are not won by throwing sticks and stones from behind bushes, either, which is what your exchanges sound like.

b) I have heard your references to Lt. Kalia and others very often before. Your dedication in this is noted. I just want to ask you:- would you like to take the trouble to go to Lt. Kalia`s hometown to meet with his father? If you do, please email me, and I shall drive you there. And after that, I shall invite you to my cousin`s hometown in Nagaland too, since he was killed subsequently in Baramulla too. Be a patriot, help me put some real salve where it hurts.

c) In a similar means to try to find out real truths, some of us went to Pakistan. Not to ``take away the focus``, as you put it. What stopped you from buying a ticket and catching a bus/train?

As I have stated before on this board - those of us who have lost the most, personally, are the ones who try to find workable solutions. Obviously, you, gujju bania, have not come close to losing anything, and correct me if I am wrong, for which I would apologise in advance. Try me for size, find out how much I, my family and friends have lost in these exchanges? And continue to, shall too?

There is a certain naivette in your queries to Manto and other Pakistanis, in my opinion, which, if I was him, I could destroy with a few well directed responses.

What, Gujju Bania, are the REAL ISSUES, as you put it, in India, that Pakistan impacts? Let us see . . .

a) Terrorists over LOC. We the Indians place our own Army there to ``catch`` the terrorists, and then we, the Indians, tie our own Army`s hands behind their backs. The lithe Army captures, the fat politician releases. The Army then kills, the politicians then scream.

Let me ask you, Gujju Bania, will you ask your elected representative in India - what legal protection does our system in India give an Army Officer accused of destroying terrorists? Would you take the trouble of reading ANiruddha Bahals` Bunker 13?

b) Anti India terrorist camps - what or who has stopped the Indian Army from going in and destroying those anti-India terrorist camps in POK? If Indian Armed Forces personnel can go all the way to Peshawar and beyond on official duty for ``security reasons``, if the soldiers of the two armies are meeting in Pakistan in connection with safety of cricketers and film stars and politicians, then who is stopping some well-planned joint actions against terrorist camps which are currently also trying to destroy Pakistan?

c) Have we been able to arrest and convict terrorist leaders/criminals in India? Is it so difficult to ``take out`` a few criminals hiding in Pakistan? Who will we blame, then, for everything from railway accidents to stamp scams?

I go to Pakistan to learn, observe. I don`t shut my eyes to my own failings. Nor, I think, should you.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ownership

A sense of belonging can at times be quite an irrational human weekness.

Poor Pakistanis who sweat out for years in Middle East, when return, dump all their hard earned money in making some grand house in some small unknown village - multi-storey, marbles, gate - when there is not even road to that village.

A small servant boy, who lives in Lahore, when goes to his village, looks at a tree with tears in his eyes and says ``That was my father`s tree``.

My mother never stepped out of that stupid village even for that stupid city Sargodha, which I keep glamourizing. She liked when the village women came in the evening, sat on the floor around her and made her feel something. She would be a non-entity in Sargodha.

So no two places can be compared. Each has its own character & life. Ownership, patriotism or nationalism, when beyond a certain degree, become a human failing.

Dear YLH:

Don`t believe a word about Delhi being better than Lahore, until you have actually visited Delhi and understood why it truly is better than Lahore. As original Delhiwalas will say that Delhi was better even before Punjabis invaded it.

Regards.
ANIL

#70 by Mantolives on April 25, 2004 8:16pm PT


I fail to understand what myths have been shattered- it is trite to say that the Punjabees from both the side make one stock, live life to the fullest, eat rich food, are extrovert and share the same punjabi abuses.
What I am looking at is a perceptive analyses by Dost-mitter on the artificial cultural differences (which is tragic) that has been forced on the common Punjabee stock after the partition and which was justified on the basis of ``irreconciable`` differences between the Punjabi muslims and non-muslims.
I know Dost-mittar has gone through the painful historical moments personally- so I expect him to do his bit to undo the historiography of TNT hate mongers who forced partition on the common punjabee stock on the basis of some artificially imposed ``irreconciable`` differences within the punjabiat culture.

Wakeup call

Militants in Europe Openly Call for Jihad and the Rule of Islam

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/international/europe/26EURO.html?hp

``a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II, have turned against their families` new home. ``

Dost-mittar jee,
Welcome back. Have been enjoying Pakistan yatra by you, Veeresh and Akaar Patel. These have been intresting reads with their human-angle , but the interacts are far more fascinating and a lot of make-believe information being manufactured by some of the interactors who innocently remark that they have not seen this city or that city but their conviction and firmness is laudatory. Veeresh has been playing with Yasser, which is not on, as Yasser has not seen either Delhi or Amritsar, but i commend Yasser for his efforts to prop up Lahore`s case.

Having had the previlege of visiting Delhi, Amritsar and Lahore from very close quarters and on many a times, I would definitely rank Delhi ahead of Lahore, even though the overall impact of the two cities is the most common in the sub-continent . But Delhi is far more cosmopolitan and boasts of greater historical monuments, educational institutions, industries, commercial activities, gastronomic experiences of a varied cuisine of a vast country. Lutyen`s New Delhi futher adds to the charm of Delhi, which is far superior to Model Town, Gulberg or the newer developments towards Thokar Niaz Beg and beyond.
Lahore is definitely superior to Amritsar in all categories, infact it`s a mismatch. The only Indian city matching Lahore with similarly rich culture, proud people, educational institutes, historical monuments and gastronomy is no other city than the capital of Avadh...Lucknow.
Both these cities are populated with the mojority of one ethnicity, Punjabis in Lahore and UP-ites in Lucknow with a fair sprinkiling of other ethnicities.The cosmopolitan ambience of Delhi, Bombay or Karachi is missing in these two fine cities, infact, to an outsider like me they are large villages compared with Bombay and Karachi and Delhi also retains it`s rustic charms just outside the cantonment area.;)

Coming to the brickbats and barbs from some of the Indian interactors about the lack of reporting on the Jehad Fund Collection and your silence thereof construed as being anti-Indian, I would like to clarify the point for your indian readers. The Jehad Funds are collected in the mosque on a Friday, and Dost-mittar being an aethist does not yet offer his namaz inspite of my strenous efforts, hence, he never witnessed any of these activities, but it is a fact and no one can deny it. I will not defend this action nor condemn it, just like the donation of millions of brick by ordinary Hindus in India and abroad to the VHP for Kaar Seva in Ayodhya after the demolition of Babri Masjid-Ram Janam Bhumi is a work of faith, I have no right to condemn or deny.

Dost Mittar...


Ballu Khan`s post is simply a cry for help... myth shattering is often quite painful.

re: Pak`s citites
Islamabad is a showpiece. That is all. In contrast, New Delhi is truly a multi cultural multiethnic city. I am proud to have been a part of that city many years ago. Most of my friends were Punjabees with a broad outlook. I doubt Lahories have seen so many different cultures in their own city. Delhi, even though having a Punjabi majority, is not a Punjabi city. Lahore, i guess, is a typical Punjabi city.
It just broadens one`s outlook to come across different cultures and learn something from each other. A similar thing happened when i came to New York for the first time. I came across immigrants from all over the world. It was the first time i met a Pakistani in my life and we found out we had a lot in common. I can relate better to a Muhajir but find the Punjabees from Pakistan proud and arrogant. I must however hasten to add that i am talking from my brief interactions with a small sample of population of Lahorites i came across in New York. For that matter, i found even Punjabees in Delhi very arrogant at times. What is their source of arrogance, i have very little idea. Perhaps the chowkies can educate me.
Sridhar

ylh,

.......... veeresh is just goading you ..........there is only one other city in the world that can beat lahore in spirit - new york city ...........a couple of times a year i go to new york just to feel alive - lahore is the same ............... i have never met a guy from delhi who felt as passionately about his city as a lahori or a newyorker ......... lucky you - i know that there are millions of people in pakistan, including me, who wish they were from lahore..........

..........i am trying to convince mrs hamidm to take a trip to data ganj baksh instead of wasting our time and money on a trip to mecca!........... oye, jinay l`hor nai waikahey, au jamaia i nai !............ of course there are people who think that a bus-stop like jehlum is a major center of culture and civilization ............

Am I the only one getting nauseated with this pointless debate on which is a better city? Home is where the heart is. For some it is Lahore, for some it is Patna.

Besides, its the people you know and socialize with that makes a huge difference in the likability of a city. I have known people who come to Islamabad and say that its one of the most boring cities. However, since i have a big circle of friends in Islamabad and know the inner social circles, its much more vibrant city for me than Karachi where i don;t know anyone.

Dost Mittar,

A belated Ji aayaN nuN. I was in Lahore that day you guys had the get together but had to spend it with family in Lakshmi Chowk due to basant. I would really liked to have met you, chal koina Rabb karey kissey hor vailey saDDi mulaqat hovey gi.

I really love Lhaur cause Punjabi is the only lingo you really need there, none of this jaw aching Hindi/Urdu, even at the airport and govt offices etc. Most my family there are very educated and well to do sort of ppl, fluent in Urdu/English however i have never spoken to any of them in anything other than Punjabi, in other cities of Pak especially my cousins in ISB they tend to speak Urdu when they get a bit of education almost as if Punjabi is beneath them, but in Lhaur even intellectuals, arty farty folks and them types speak in Punjabi.

I would really hope that one day the major sign posts are written in Gurmukhi as well, it will help many Indian Punjabis as well as give Lhaur a more cosmo-Punjabi feel. To me Lhaur is similar to Barcelona in that, just as BCN is the capital of Cataluna with a strong Catalan culture, feel and identity, artisans, writers etc so Lhaur is the capital of Punjab with a strong Punjabi culture, feel and id. Suppose KHI would be like Madrid with most ethnicities living there, and like Madrilenos from what i have seen Karachiites do have strong sense of loyalty to KHI.

I think it is unfair to compare Lhaur and Delhi, Delhi is the capital of India (and has been for a long long time) it has got all the boring Islamabad types there as well as the normal ppl, and it will obviously have a lot more foreign ppl and diplomats there. Tho i would love to go to Delhi to see where India is ruled from, see the lovely parliament buildings (Lok/Rajha Sabah - are there any guided tours?) as compared to the boring white blocks in ISB. Delhi seems so nice and clean from news reports and the politicians seem to always be coming out of lovely historic buildings to deliver boring speeches and answer questions from journalists. Vajpayee is always dressed in traditional Indian clothes and speaks pure Hindi which is music to the ears compared to Mushy and his half Urdu/English in western clothes - alienating most of the population straight away.

I digress. Back to Punjab, although my nankey are die hard Lhauris having lived there for three coming now four generations, my dadkey are from Llylepur (Faisalabad) this is deep inside Punjab, and the rural is a lot more noticeable in the urban settings. The population is more than ISB/Rawalpindi, but still the mentality can be very rural, even tho LYP is a relatively old city. It is in cities like this where you can see how the majority of Punjabi ppl live, and you are never too far away from village and country life. I hope next time you come you go around to these places to get a better feel of the province of Punjab, as opposed to its powerhouse, Lhaur.

Rabb karey key tussi Ravi dey es paar moR moR ayoN, tey ik din assi vi Ravi dey aus paar javaN gey!