My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!

dost-mittarji:

Do not waste these observations in ilogs...they are certainly not the best forum. As I said, many would like the smaller articles at intervals...I like things to flow at one go, so there is no gap. You say you have three more to go...I would like a longish one where one can sit with a glass of khus sherbet and imbibe what is being said. Appreciate that you did not take my comments amiss. (Btw, I was told that I made those comments only because Mumbai was not mentioned!)

PS: What`s with the `ji`? Only because I have been talking about civility all over the place?! Suddenly, I have also got the title of `Madam`...

sadna,

`Are you seriously telling me 140 million Muslims who are citizens of India support Pakistani-sponsored jihad against India and Indians? Apart from your parents, what is the basis of your assertion? `

No, nor do my parents. Paki `Jihad` has been exposed as a farce, and cheap thuggery. Despite this, of the two countries, I would dare think that many Indian Muslims think Pakistan`s `official` line (no matter how insincere) is the most sensible: let the Kashmiri`s have their way - whatever it is. India won`t have it...and yes, hindutva and nationalism have everything to do with this stubbornness...

`I donot have to. I was only responding to your own comment that Pakistani-funded jihadis are fighting against the scourge of Indian nationalism and Hindutva, implying that Indian Muslims interests lie with Pakistanis waging a jihad against the Indian nation. `

*Sigh*...

a) Never made the comment that jihadis are fighting scourge of anything...just saying Indian right wing and hawkish policies not any better. Indian `hindu` nationalism and Hindutva IS a scourge all by itself - regardless of what the Jihadis think or do about it. These are for Indian Muslims (and therefore India itself) a far worse threat than cave-men Jihadis who seem to like getting their heads shot off as they try to make their way across the LoC.

b) I was merely parroting you...questioning me for speaking `on behalf` of a people is one thing..then you go on and speak `on behalf` of others...

``btw, this is exactly what organizations like Vishwa Hindu Parishad say to justify their hatred and suspicion of Indian Muslims for posing a permanent threat to India. Are you stating here that the VHP is right? ``

a) Who the hell cares what the VHP thinks?

b) No, obviously the VHP is not ``right`` - although even entertaining the notion of an independent Kashmir may seem like proof of treason to these jerks.

c) The VHP refuse to look at the Muslims of India as an integral part of the country...despite being grown from the soil, and ethnically from India, they still regard Muslims as some sort of `outsider` or foreigner. Muslims a threat? To whom? Themselves? No, to India of course...India being a `Hindu` entity, and Muslims being some other alien group scattered across the land with no kinds of valid claims or recognized affinities to it. That`s how these idiots think.

By the very act of mentioning them you are giving this view some credibility...do YOU think the VHP is right?

Farzanaji:
Thanks for your honest advice. Perhaps the best thing would have been to use ilogs if I had the tool (laptop, Internet) accessible. I was planning to write three more articles, these are all Pak-specific but odd comment here or there comparing the two countries is bound to creep in, like the comparison of Lahore and Delhi. But as you said, this is the kind of comment which causes everyone`s attention.

Madani saheb#173
Glad to hear from you. We miss you over here.
Sorry to hear that you are feeling down. Please take tahmed`s advice.
I know that you were leading a very busy life before retiring. I wonder if an abrupt change in lifestyle is causing you to be depressed. Are you following your plans of starting a business? I know you liked to read, are you keeping up with that hobby?
...and try to stay in touch!

jang #191 ``So i suspect you have been reading some revisionist history. ``

More like trying to reach my own conclusions using known facts, rather than buying someone else`s conclusions - be it conventional wisdom or revisionist history.

These are the facts as I understand them (and I dont claim to be an expert on the mutiny and will be glad to have the facts corrected for commission/omission):

a. The mutiny was triggered by perceived religious slights: Muslim soldiers being appalled to learn that that thingy they pulled off the kartoos with their teeth was some kind of pig skin. Ha! Ha! No struggle for Liberte a la the French Revolution here.

b. Mismanagement by the East India Company: Subsequent actions of the british government indirectly point to this being a factor. Thus, the crown took away the charter of the East India Company whose reason for existence after all was money making, and replaced it with crown rule with indians becoming Her Majesty`s Most Loyal Subjects. So, there were no doubt some stirrings of nationalism that those clever Victorians seemed to have sensed, but which certainly were not voiced at the time by the Indians.

Given the above, it seems quite clear that by helping crush the mutiny, the sikhs ensured the continuation of british rule. And british rule (by giving rise to the indian middle class and the INC) was almost certainly far better for the future of India than any alternative. The local rajahs and kings (mughals, marahattas, whoever and who cares) would have kept the subcontinents backward and in their grips for as long as possible.

That is how I reach my conclusions.

ijaz gul:

i refuse to answer that question on the basis that it may incriminate me!

: )

you`ve mentioned something about messenger before. yahoo, msn or both?

tahmed

``And thank your stars that the sikhs sided with the brits. Ever stop to think what would have happened if the brits had lost and the mughals had come back? ``

ahmed,

Mughals were down-and-out beggars by then. If at all, you would more likely be ruled by the Marathas like Scindias of Gwalior, Holkars of Indore, Gaikwads of Baroda, Tope/Laxmibai of Zansi, and Peshwa Brahmins of Pune. And if you understand the indian freedom movement, contribution from Pune (spiritual capital of marathas) is huge..gokhale, tilak, agarkar, gandhi (he hung-out there plenty) and many other then terrorists. So i dont know how you day that descendants of these mutineers were not part of the freedom struggle.

So i suspect you have been reading some revisionist history.

Nooralain,
I do know Dr. Benjamin and his wife of the United Christian Hospital . He was a surgeon par excellance. He operated my mother way back in 1977. I think he too studied at Nishtar in Multan, Hummm........?
Have I got there?

Gujju Bania . . . you have your views, I have mine. Let me assure you neither are stupid or naive.

1) Please do feel free to submit an article to chowk with your views. It would lead to a good quality debate, I think. Geo-politics is something all of us have our views on.

2) You continue to evade the Lt. Kalia issue. As I`ve said before, I offer to drive you to their home.

3) On the 1948/62/65/71 and Kargil as well as other IS scenarios, believe me, I know my onions.

4) Finally, please try to understand the power of ``assimilation by democracy`` when you refer to Pakistan Today.

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Gujju Bania . . . I am just the singer, not the song, get that into your head. There is something to observe, there is something to be learnt, and there are resolutions to be attempted. Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. You seem to have reached the Decide/Act stage directly, and then take no action other than battle on keyboard?

a) For a moment let us assume that Pakistan and Pakistanis are the ultimate enemies responsible for all the ills of India and Indian. In such a case, considering our track record as India/Indians of not being able to fix that for 57 years, don`t you think we Indians need to get to know what makes the Pakistanis tick before we make any assumptions?

b) On the Lt. Kalia or any other dead soldier in India, as a middle class Indian, I would suggest you go out and help just any one family. Help need not mean money, just take the trouble to know their address, go and meet them. Start from there.

Are you getting to what I mean? I have no problem with your views, you are entitled to them. Just do not keep taking the name of a dead soldier to me, there are a few in my family and I DO NOT like the way you use these names.

vertex #184
``I am speaking for at least some element of the Indian Muslim population. No need to check with anyone...I`m not `officially` representing anybody...at the very least I am speaking for my parents (both of whom are/were Inidan citizens) who share my views.``

Are you seriously telling me 140 million Muslims who are citizens of India support Pakistani-sponsored jihad against India and Indians? Apart from your parents, what is the basis of your assertion?

``Are you speaking for Pakistani citizens? I hope you checked with them first....``

I donot have to. I was only responding to your own comment that Pakistani-funded jihadis are fighting against the scourge of Indian nationalism and Hindutva, implying that Indian Muslims interests lie with Pakistanis waging a jihad against the Indian nation.

btw, this is exactly what organisations like Vishwa Hindu Parishad say to justify their hatred and suspicion of Indian Muslims for posing a permanent threat to India. Are you stating here that the VHP is right?

sadna,

`If you are speaking for Indian citizens, did you check with them first?`

Well. yes. I am speaking for at least some element of the Indian Muslim population. No need to check with anyone...I`m not `officially` representing anybody...at the very least I am speaking for my parents (both of whom are/were Inidan citizens) who share my views.

`By Indian Muslims being suitably grateful, I meant those Muslims who are Indian citizens, for whose sake Pakistanis claim to be fighting the scourge of Indian nationalism and Hindutva.`

Are you speaking for Pakistani citizens? I hope you checked with them first....

The importance of lt kalia,

Many pakistanis have said that it was a mistake, many more are refusing to accept that at kargill pakistan invaded india. But the torture and killing of kalia is significant. This is the first indo pak military encounter since zia, since the pak army has been jihadises. Even the motto of pak army is that it is the army of god, most of the pak army recruits are madrassa products. The treatment of kalia shows that now the pak army comprise not of professionals, who doi a job to make a living howver diststeful it might be, but comprise of jihadius who relish the killings, who take the killing of kafirs as a devine task and relish every aspect of it. It is the same joy, a reliving of the joy they experienced as children when their parents killed animals in the backyards. From animal killing to the jihadic killing of kafirs, the motto of pak army is realised. That is the significance, and to bring that to the world, is tribute to kalia, and to that extend gujju has done his bit. What have you done, veeresh to limit the jihadic killings in kashmir, for that matter all thyrough the world.

Travelling to pakistan and the glowing reports to pacify the lost familial longings to murder kalia again. Well, tyhere is a role for everything, there is a purpose for every human being, and may you are doing yours, killing one twice.

#179 by gujjubania on April 28, 2004 1:22am PT

You raised the issue of jehadi fund collection on the jumma namaz.
Why not start a Lt . Kalia fund - I would gladly contribute my next salary for it. It would be a good way to battle these Paki jehadi rascals who would, like OBL , WARN all the muslims to avoid Indian civilian and military installations before planting their bombs in the crowded civilian markets.