My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!

Anil # 158

Your knowledge of History is very shaky.

The site of Sisgunj Gurudwara is the place where the ninth Guru of Sikhs, Guru Tegh Bahadur was put to sword, on the orders of Aurangzeb, when he refused to convert to Islam. Five of his companions were tortured to death before his eyes, to force him to convert, but he refused and preferred martyrdom.

As an aside, he sacrificed his life in defense of the Kashmiri pundits who were being converted on a grand scale on the point of the sword.

After this event the Sikhs changed from a peaceful sect and turned to militancy, as a result, with a hundred years all the North India came under the rule of Ranjit Singh.

The sons to young sons Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth guru were buried alive in a brick wall on the orders of the Muslim governor of Sarhind.

The 1857 rebellion which we call the first war of independence, was in fact a rebellion by the Hindu and Muslim troops of the East India company, when they were forced to use ammunition, which had leather pouch, which had to be opened by teeth before use. The same troops had been used to fight the Sikh army just a decade before.

Small wonder the Sikh soldiers had no sympathy for these troops.

Noorie,

I am Theek Thaak... still looking for work, hardly on msn these days, but if i see u i hope we talk... often times u reply to certain ppl much better than i could and you say what i had been thinking, thus the need to cheerlead!!!

Anil

Lylepur was a predominantly Sikh city, my family came form Jullandhar and settled in Harcharnpura area of LYP - named after Harchan Singh who used to own all the land around LYP... when i was younger the sikh architecture and style was very visible all over LYP the gorgeous houses with intricate carvings etc... because the city has grown these are now only seen in the older parts of town, if u go to Kaisari Gate (i think) just outside you will see a fountain or something of the sort that still has Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi inscriptions on it... the Sikh influence is also very evident in the ancient city of Chiniot, in the older areas of the city the old houses still stand, when we were kids and used to visit my mamee ji`s family in chiniot we would always play hide and seek in mammee ji`s house as it was so big and every door led to another room, which lead to another room, as a child it seemed never ending, and the balconies are stunning as are the doorways... they just dont make them like that anymore...

there is an old Hindu mandir in Chiniot, it is still standing and many ppl go there to visit it as tourists, i never had time this time round but def intend on going... there used to be lots of temples in Lhaur, some were purposely brought down at the time of the Ayodhya dispute as a direct reaction to what had happened there... its such a shame as this is a major part of Lhaur`s heritage...

In LYP i also seen a Mandir, it is dis-used though the carvings etc on the temple wall are still there, and have not been disfigured or anything... the same is true for a temple on your way to Toba Tek Singh near Rajana i think, its just there, no one using it, no one abusing it, the lovely Goddess carvings on the outside are still there and look directly out at you, almost as if they are surprised to see you, i am sure there are many more Mandirs in Sindh that are actually in use and kept up, but i have never been there so i couldn`t say...

pmishra is right, the `jahils` have destroyed a lot of our Hindu and Buddhist heritage, esp in North and Afghanistan, i do regret this and feel angry as thats part of my heritage i will not get to see... Gandhara was the place of Buddhist learning, my cousins went there and say a lot of the Buddhist stupas still remain and are tourist attractions... it would be nice if Buddhist monks were able to go back and pray there, and if Hindus were allowed to come and worship and look after the salt range temples... that way at least these ancient sites will be preserved for future generations...

i hope many more ppl come from India and lodge complaints with Pak govt to ensure these place are looked after instead of neglected... or at least the Pak govt will have anb incentive to look after them as many more ppl will come to Pak esp to see these sites...

anil#158
[``No, Lahore is not unique, but it is the largest city in Pakistan to have gone through such transition. Lyalpur, Montgomery, Multan, Sargodha, Rawalpinidi, even Peshawar all had vibrant Hindu and Sikh communities.``

Were these hindu-sikh majority cities? ]

Lyalpur and Montogomery were, Peshawar wasn`t. I am no certain about the others.

[My read of Delhi`s history of that period has been that of cooperation against the British and Sikh forces who were supporting British. If there is an English translation of Galib`s writing of this period I am very interested, if you can point to me where I can find it. The partition time riots as I recall in Delhi were limited to Kingsway camp where the refugees from the west Punjab were arriving]

kaurasach has already provided some background. Panjab was not all united; Sutlej river was the dividing line; west of Sutlej was the area ruled by Ranjit Singh and east of it was the area ruled by sikh rulers like the Maharaja of Patiala who were loyal to the British even during the Ranjit Singh period. It is mostly these troops that took part with the British during the seiege of Delhi. And it seems that after the city was outrun, they often helped the locals; Ghalib mentions some specific instances of the sikhs intervening with the British on the behalf of the locals.
I did not suggest that Muslims were driven out by the Hindus; but the Muslims, especially the surviving nobility were asked to camp outside the city walls for several months after the rebellion and were allowed back later only after paying fines and obtaining permits. You can read such accounts in Ghalib`s letters. I have a copy of his works by K.C. Kanda but they may be available on the Net too.
The riots in Delhi were not limited to the Kingsway Camp area, I believe that the Camp area was practically uninhabited barracks before it was turned into a camp. The riots in Delhi took place in places like Karol Bagh and Pahar Ganj, areas where hindus and sikhs moved into the empty houses.

vertex #160.``
``however from what I hear, they do have a serious collection problem.``

Yes, but the taxes which ARE collected, a good fraction of those taxes spent on the Pakistani Army. These jihadi collections are over and above that.

``We `Indian` (or those of indian descent) Muslims are suitably grateful to GE and Microsoft for talking sense into Indian leadership when they were all gung-ho and ready to start nuke war with Pakistan over some small-time terrorist attacks. ``

If you are speaking for Indian citizens, did you check with them first? By Indian Muslims being suitably grateful, I meant those Muslims who are Indian citizens, for whose sake Pakistanis claim to be fighting the scourge of Indian nationalism and Hindutva.

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Noor. I knew Padri Qadir Baksh. Short and stout, his son was married to a colonel`s daughter. The Hymnes they sang in Urdu were the Psalms of David. The Protestant, Anglican and the Presbyterian Churches in Pakistan are in turmoil. It has something to do with the political economy of being community leaders and office holders. This elite amongst the churches is as corrupt as the worst politicians in the country.

Yea your cousin must have been way too small.

sadna,

`Oh, don`t Pakistanis pay taxes, too?`

Wouldn`t know...am not Pakistani...however from what I hear, they do have a serious collection problem...but point was Indians no better, not that Pakis were better.

`This is dost-mittar`s board so I will only add I hope Indian Muslims and the world are suitably grateful to Pakistan for fighting the scourge of Indian nationalism and Hindutva. `

We `Indian` (or those of indian descent) Muslims are suitably grateful to GE and Microsoft for talking sense into Indian leadership when they were all gung-ho and ready to start nuke war with Pakistan over some small-time terrorist attacks.

Aspects of Indian nationalism are a scourage. It goes beyond a confidence found, which may well be the layperson`s nationalism. However, the nationalism espoused by the right wing parties (the bricks...remember the bricks!) supported and nutured by the Indian government goes well beyond being benign...the nationalism that would rather see Kashmiris drop dead than to have the status of J&K discussed is most definitely a scourage.

Dost Mitter (#155):

``No, Lahore is not unique, but it is the largest city in Pakistan to have gone through such transition. Lyalpur, Montgomery, Multan, Sargodha, Rawalpinidi, even Peshawar all had vibrant Hindu and Sikh communities.``

Were these hindu-sikh majority cities?

``and yes, your own Dilli made a transition from a largely muslim to a largely hindu city at the time of 1857 rebellion. For a while, hardly any muslims were to be seen inside the gates of Dilli``

I have the history of Hindu-Muslim relationship. In fact, when I was small, my Dadi used to tell us the story about her Nana`s participation in 1857 uprising. Delhi was segregated. North side of Chandni Chowk was hindu, while South side was muslim. This to some extent has still remained the case. This included the periphery of Delhi Gate, Turkman Gate, Ajmeri Gate to Lal Kuan to Fatehpuri Masjid areas. Whereas Lahori Gate, Mori Gate, Kashmiri Gate to Yamuna River are largely hindu. My read of Delhi`s history of that period has been that of cooperation against the British and Sikh forces who were supporting British. If there is an English translation of Galib`s writing of this period I am very interested, if you can point to me where I can find it. The partition time riots as I recall in Delhi were limited to Kingsway camp where the refugees from the west Punjab were arriving.

Interestingly, Moti Masjid, from where Katle-Aam farmans were issued - the killers, the Kotwali - the protectors, and Sishganj Gurudwara - where famous sons of a sikh guru were buried alive - the sacrificed, stand with common walls joining each other. That was Delhi and is Delhi, but cannot say about the future.

The purpose of my questions is to understand transformation, and not indictment of any religion.

Anil

tahmed32 (#154):

I agree with you that regional centers which are economically viable will start forming. Just imagine, it will be very easy for overseas punjabis to use Lahore Aiport and be driven over to Amritsar to Jullundhar in less time than it takes them now when they arrive at Delhi Airport. The revenue to the airport, buses and trains will be sufficient to create new wealth there. The cross border trade would bring the riches to the area villages rather than to the smugglers who sit in Dubai and direct smuggling.

Ani

HP#153
You are right. The rest house is located within the Moen jo Daro complex. By the time our flight from Karachi reached Moen Jo Daro and we completed all formalties of checking into the Rest House, it was getting to be late. The next day, after we visited the site and the museum, we had to right away take a taxi to Rohri (across from Sukkur) from where we were catching a train to Faislabad as the taxi driver wanted to be back before dark when that area becomes unsafe for travel even for the locals. So, even though we were told that the river was only a couple of miles from there, we could not go there.

We did pass through Larkana on our way to Sukkur-Rohri. No, I am not planning to write a full article on Moen Jo Daro but will refer to it in the Interacts, whenever the opportunity arises.

anil#152
``Transition in Lahore in my view is very unique, I am not aware of any other city that has gone through such a transition. I also wonder if Hindus or other religious group made a transition from being minority to a majority things would have been any different.``

No, Lahore is not unique, but it is the largest city in Pakistan to have gone through such transition. Lyalpur, Montgomery, Multan, Sargodha, Rawalpinidi, even Peshawar all had vibrant Hindu and Sikh communities.
During the partition, cities like Amritsar, Jullundhur and Ludhiana were also purged of their muslims although, as far as I am aware, they never had a majority of muslims in them.
-and yes, your own Dilli made a transition from a largely muslim to a largely hindu city at the time of 1857 rebellion. For a while, hardly any muslims were to be seen inside the gates of Dilli, Mirza Ghalib gives poignant description of those days in some of his letters. But the hindu religion expects its adherents to accord the same respect to others` places of worship as to their own; there being no ban on `shirk` in the religion -indeed, where they are allowed, as in dargahs and mazaars, you will find more hindus than muslims.

#143 by dost-mittar

”I crossed the Sindh river twice, once while crossing from Panjab to NWFP and another time while passing through Sukkur in Sindh. Couldn`t even get a good look from the road from where I was sitting.”

That’s a surprise! I guess you said somewhere you did go to Moen Jo Daro and stayed at the rest house there. If I am right about the location of the rest house, I think you were about a mile or so away from the Sindhu River.

What I recall, at times in summer you can see the river from Daro.

I think you still have to write about Moen jo Daro, we will discuss that when you get that.

I hope you were able to visit Larkana too.

anil #152 There may have been studies done about the socio-economic impact of partition on Lahore, but I am not aware of any (but then...its been years since I saw the inside of the Panjab University or the Government College Lahore Economics Department library where presumably they would such studies).

As for going ``back to the future``, with sikhs and hindus once again becoming part of the local scene, I think it is a question of time before political tensions are relaxed enough for that to happen. Regardless of how well or poorly the peace process goes over the next one or two years, I think for the longer run there seems no question that we will see an emergence of ``regional centers`` that cross national boundries between Pakistan and India. The driving force for this is economic forces, not politics.

Dost Mitter (#82) & Tahmed (#32):

My probing mind is trying to understand the transition in Lahore from non-islamic majority to islamic majority from a social and economic view point. It is very little to do with religion and its fury, I subscribe very little to it. I wonder if after 56 years, people are ready to talk and understand without emotions. Transition in Lahore in my view is very unique, I am not aware of any other city that has gone through such a transition. I also wonder if Hindus or other religious group made a transition from being minority to a majority things would have been any different. Jerusalem remained a mulsim majority city, even after Israelis moved in there.

Tahmed sahib, I agree with your observation, that city of Lahore should recognize its old heritage and population mix. This gesture would be such a wonderful, and timely. Don`t you think?

Anil

ijaz gul,

my cousin i believe graduated from St. Anthony`s in 1977 or 78, i cannot remember the exact year. you probably would not have known him. : )

yes, it is the methodist church. the services were in urdu/punjabi. i recall never being quite into the services at the time though the songs were lovely. have you ever been there, or would you have attended a service say around the time that padri qadir baksh was there?

the world is shrinking, and getting smaller every day. not too long ago, where i live now, i went into a desi dukaan and in striking up a conversation with the dukaandaars, i learned that they knew of my family, and the woman went to kinnaird college with my aunt. it was just a little too close for comfort. . .in a sense.

but that`s what happens in as small a community as the christian community is (or was back in the day) in lahore, or anywhere, there are plenty of connections to be made.

This is from another board, but relevant to what Manto has been spreading lies about me on every other board he is visiting.

``Spreading lies about someone and inciting others with those lies is definitely hate-mongering. And that is what YLH was doing when he was reproducing my retort to him in part while omitting the context (and he deliberately omitted my complain on his lies which I had reproduced verbatim) IN BOLD. Let every body understand that this is exactly what the mullahs did to Dr.M. Younus Shaikh when they could not tolerate his show of dissent publically - they resorted to spreading lies publically in order to to incite hatered towards him.In doing so he has amply demonstrated to everyone here about his intellectual dishonesty!
Need I say more? ``