My Pakistan Diary: Lahore Aaya Main Othay Dil Chhod Aaya!

Vertex:

Excellent well articulated point. What is the fine line between treason and dissent? It is my opinion that a democracy should contain a wealth of variety in positions as long as they are within the constitutional consensus. An American citizen has the right to argue against American policy but not make a case against violent overthrow of that what constitutes the American consensus which includes territorial integrity.

Hence, as an Indian Muslim, you have as much right as I do of criticizing the Indian`s government`s policies in Kashmir including the hijacking of the demographic impulse there as well specifics such as the arrest of Sheikh Abdullah, the throttling of the MUF and so on. That is your right, same as mine. However, when you cross the line into advocating the partition of territory that the Indian constitution considers its own, then you go from dissent to treason. I hope I am able to reasonably illustrate my point.

Manto`s example is a good one, the difference being status quo versus attaining an objective. If I was a fellow Pakistani, I would find it reasonable if Manto advocates or opposes Jehadi policy in Kashmir. That would be his right. However, if he was to cite the rules governing the actual status quo of Kashmir and describe as illegitimate the annexation of Northern Areas and Gilgitstan I would reasonably call that treasonous.

Now, I admit that my reading of the threads was superficial. Hence in joining the more rabid elements of the board I was under the impression that you advocate Kashmiri independence. In my mind, that position would put you across the pale. I myself would accept Kashmiri independence (not support it) if a majority of my fellow Indians decide that we are better of without Kashmir. But the key is that it is the majority of the country rather then one specific region which would decide that. I believe that is consistent with the view United States took during the civil war as well.

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stuka,

``Now, you are not Indian and hence not obligated to accept the Indian position at all. But this guy is claiming to be Indian on this board at least. Hence his textual bhund pey laat by Indians is quite well deserved.``

I missed this....now you sound like a reasonable fellow. So I`m rather amazed at your deviation from as-a-matter-of-fact descriptions of human nature, to this blanket approval of the more rabid elements on this board.

The `Indian position` you talk about implies a non-existent homogeneity in Indian thought...it doesn`t exist. India was not meant to be a fascist state, but rather a democratic one. In such a state, diversity of opinions are solicited, not just tolerated...there is no one-party line that anyone has to subscribe to...even if it means saying ``good riddance`` to an `integral part` of a nation.

By your very logic, Manto should be die-hard in support of Jehadi Kashmiri militants and terrorists because that is/was his countries official policy. Or, he should be pro-dictator, because that`s what Pakistan currently has...he doesn`t, and I salute him for that. Like I said, interests vs. values. Strike the balance. This is a question of maturity, not nationality.

Guju,

``I repeat - My country - Right or Wrong. No justification required. Again , I repeat , you don`t agree with that ? What are you gonna do about it ?``

Heheheh - what am I going to do about it? Now you’re a schoolyard bully? Nothing...that’s what I’m going to do about it. So rest easy, take a chill pill...jeez..

``You think Indian muslims (who you claim to represent) are not okay with that ? What are they gonna do about it ? Do something , okay ...dont just say you dont like it ..do something..``

How can I? I thought nothing could be done, and nothing should be done-right or wrong...tow the line or shut-up. Wasn’t that your original point?

``Deep down , you cannot even fathom the depth of hatred I (and other Indians) have for those like you.``

Deep down, I couldn’t care less.

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manto,

``The truth question of identity is an imagined one and it is citizenship that matters...``

Well said...

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ankit,

``Also, you can deal with a political movement in a reasonable fashion. There have been numerous political movements in India after 47 and many of them have reached their goals through the democratic process.``

Now that is something to be proud of!

``But what do you do to a terrorist who beheads the wife and childen of a police officer? You might want to deal `` reasonably`` with him, but I dont.``

It is an old canard to white wash an entire political sentiment or movement by the actions of the most barbarous espousing the cause. By the same token, a proponent of Kashmiri separation may well take atrocities committed by Indian troops as proof-positive that the Indian government cannot possibly be trusted...and likewise may conclude that the only logical course of action is violence since they are not ``reasonable``.

No doubt, terrorists must be hunted down...and no doubt foreign interference must be ended. However, there is domestic sentiment that is openly anti-India, and they must be addressed...not necessarily placated...but addressed...otherwise it would be like scratching an itch...temporary relief...long term problems.

It is getting very tiring now...I am merely advocating an alternative, and questioning the clumsy approach in the region taken thus far - with a heavy dose of sarcasm and scorn directed to the rabidly nationalist.
It saddens me greatly that India, no doubt the largest democracy on this planet, has failed to generate a least this handful of people who don`t appreciate the democratic spirit and the political processes and culture it cultivates...

``on the other hand i have observed that people of my generation are not hypocrites. they are ready to call a spade a spade.``

Problem is, you`re too busy crying out spade when we`re talking about picks and shovels. Call a spade a spade all you like, but if you ain`t even seen a spade before, you only look the fool.

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Stuka,


a very sensible post...

``Ultimately it is the people with guns that fight...``

And apparently people with internet access too...:-)

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Waisey, by and large the Indians seem to have polluted this thread with inane Bullshit. and if I hear about the Human development Index one more time I will puke. It is like 2 categories of choodas boasting to each other about their caste. :0)

Waisey, by and large the Indians seem to have polluted this thread with inane Bullshit. and if I hear about the Human development Index one more time I will puke. It is like 2 categories of choodas boasting to each other about their caste. :0)

Yasser:

``It really should be that you are a loyal Indian (or a loyal Pakistani) if you pay your taxes and abide by the law of your country... ``

Absolutely agree with you one hundred percent. Going by a spradic check of the posts, this guy is not being roasted for being a Muslim. He is being roasted for going against his country`s legal position on its integral part.

Now, you are not Indian and hence not obligated to accept the Indian position at all. But this guy is claiming to be Indian on this board at least. Hence his textual bhund pey laat by Indians is quite well deserved.

Vertex:

Republicans, Indian Nationalists, Jehadis, we are all the same people. That is a fundamental truth. However, just because we are the same people does not mean we are on the same side, right???

So, yes, replace Jehad with Unity and Integrity of India and you get the same mindset. The diference is that the gun points in opposite directions. So, you can choose to be an Indian first, or you can choose to be a Muslim first or if you are lucky enough to be in America you have the choice not to care. Its simple ain`t it?? Ultimately it is the people with guns that fight, it is people with views that support the fight and well, if you happen to have the wrong view at the wrong time and place you are screwed. right??

Kya karein, we are kattar on Kashmir. :0)

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#240


``Why should it go down well?..............This isn`t a matter of what Muslims should do...it`s what they would most probably do... ``

I want to ask why should it not ? I already know it wont, but it also matters what muslims should do. In the same way, I am amazed when people talk about article 370 in light of minority rights/secularism and all that stuff. 370 is about J&K, it is not about Muslims. It just happens to be the case that a part of J&K has muslim majority.

Also, you can deal with a political movement in a reasonable fashion. There have been numerous political movements in India after 47 and many of them have reached their goals through the democratic process. Some have not and the reason has been that those movements could not garner enough popular support. But what do you do to a terrorist who beheads the wife and childen of a police officer? You might want to deal `` reasonably`` with him, but I dont.

``*Sigh*... you (and your fellow nationalists) sound exactly like a Jehadi``

the sentiment is complemetary..

``As I`ve stated for the umpteenth time, I`d rather see any country break up then having a part of it forced to stay at gunpoint.``

I wont. I would try to make them see reason. Take the public with you and decide your future. The part of your future which is more intricately related with the future of the whole country shall be decided by the country as a whole.


``Indian Muslims will generally sympathize with Kashmiris if it is perceived (rightly or wrongly) as anti-Muslim violence. Further, it is well known that life isn`t a picknick up there...it`s sad, but true. People will not put `Indianness` ahead of another identity if they feel that tomorrow they may be treated just as harshly for being a Muslim``

it is not about being muslim. what is your opinion about ULFA which is mostly composed of hindus? what about some other organization in north-east which are christian dominated? what about the khalistan movement which was by sikhs? khalistan was dealt with by iron fist and we succeded. we did same with ulfa by operations in bhutan. and we are doing the same thing in kashmir.

it seems you are seeing it the way you want to see it, and that cannot be helped.

``It seems like fanatics like yourself seem to have a nexus here on chowk, but I have yet to meet one in person...how odd``

thanks for that. i think you are a fanatic.

on the other hand i have observed that people of my generation are not hypocrites. they are ready to call a spade a spade. if you get to meet some young people in their 20s in Indian metros, try and talk to them about these issues. you will get to know what I mean.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
Ayaz Amir is exposing his mullah education !
I thought this fellow was rational - he is as delusional as the rest of the land of the
pure.

Vertex ...

The hatred gujjubania has expressed for you, is expressed in many other forms as well every day on chowk... it is like the Goddess kali and it has many avtars. How dare you espouse another view of your existence, how dare you question the one form of Indian patriotism that has official sanction. This is your dilemma. Have you been baptized by the high priests of Indian patriotism and nationalism? How then can you be an Indian?

The truth question of identity is an imagined one and it is citizenship that matters... It really should be that you are a loyal Indian (or a loyal Pakistani) if you pay your taxes and abide by the law of your country... and not because of questions like are you Indian first or muslim first, or will you shoot a muslim if you go to war with Pakistan ... do you believe in religio-cultural solidarity, do you believe in the eternal goodness of the Hindu philosophy etc etc.


Jawaharlal Nehru had realized after a decade in power that there was no such thing as imposed nationalism. Declaiming in the Lok Sabha he said:

`Each person`s idea of nationalism is his own.... What is communalism? You may have described ... Muslim communalism as Muslim nationalism , and you would have been correct.`


Ofcourse you have to be someone of Nehru`s stature to admit something like that. The issue of identity had existed for many centuries... it certainly was not what our Indian friends describe as `TNT` that resulted in the creation of two nation states, it was simply a constitutional deadlock i.e. resulting from the non-acceptance of the Cabinet mission plan. Yet so warped is the sense of reality of some of these folks, that because of the separation of Pakistan from the rest of the subcontinent, fine Indians like yourself are tried and sentenced as unpatriotic for being proud cultural muslims.





arjunm

Published in 1983 , Rushdie in this book predicted that if the western powers support the Afghan Jehad and radicalize Pakistan in the process it will have disastrous consequences. The thriving madrassah industry is merely one form of it. However there is the other side to Pakistan as well which is fighting against the madrassah industry ...

Arjun Bhai, you need to be clear ... you have on number of occasions praised me, and posted my letters/articles on chowk. Many times you have said `more power to you`... do you really want me and people like me to succeed... or do you want in a nationalist frenzy the mullahs to succeed so that you can point to them and ask the rest of the world to bomb Pakistan?

There is a big difference between the two positions.

-YLH

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_1-5-2004_pg3_4

Shaukat Qadir(ex-ISI, who was mentioned by Younus Sheikh in connection with his blasphemy trial):

``...It is wrong to aver that Pakistan had any ‘Kashmir’ or ‘Afghan’ policies. Policies are formulated to achieve an objective, a purpose. Neither of the two had an end or purpose in sight; they were open-ended. They had become an end unto themselves...``

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re:#240 by vertex
I am surprised at your response. YOu seem to suggest that there should be a political solution to this Kashmir problem. Agreed. What do u suggest India do with the terrorists who are killing innocent civilians? Did u read the newsreports of innocent people killed during the election?
While political process should go hand in hand (which is already happening; that is why there is an election), terrorists should be eliminated like vermin. Terrorists do not know how to compromise. If u do not believe me, just look at the way LTTE has missed so many chances of political settlement. Violence has become a way of life for these terrorists and they just do not seem to settle for anything less. It is: them or us. If u do not believe this, u do not know anything about terrorism and its brutal face.
If Indian muslims outside the valley were ever to start sympathising with the terrorists in the valley, that would be a sad day for Indian secularism. So far, this has not happened. Best thing that Indian politicans can do is to strengthen Indian secularism outside the valley while finishing off the vermins inside the valley.
Sridhar