A Sign of Things To Come?

#74 by dost-mittar on May 2, 2004 8:32pm PT

Why don`t you put these questions in front of the Kashmiri people, and let them give the answers through their decision in a plebiscite? It seems that India is very nervous about doing this because that decision is pretty obvious.

tahmed2 sahib -- first, im not really a reporter in dawn but i suppose it doesn`t really matter what i am -- about your complaint with our headline of may 2 -- well, the story was by either AFP or Reuter and it clearly quoted a spokesperson of the Macedonian police saying that the incident was done to get approval from the US, in the latter`s so-called war against terror -- in fact the headline was perfectly honest and accurate because it attributed the remark to a macedonian govt representative -- however, if you have any complaints you may wish to pursue them though in this case they seem quite unfounded --
veeresh sahib -- if memory serves me right, dawn moved from delhi way back in 1947 -- as for the relationship between the haroons and the jains ``being what it is`` -- well i am not sure what you mean by that -- if you mean they are really pally then i doubt that very much -- it seems you cant resist the temptation to make personal remarks veeresh sahib -- actually i dont see why i have to tell you where all i walked about in delhi but i suppose to satisfy the inrtrusive likes of you, yes i went to chandni chowk and connaught place and all over south delhi, all over old delhi, in and out of the many side streets of janpath and many many other decidedly downmarket parts -- but seriously, PLEASE stop judging others on your own (so far) uninformed assumptions or whether you had the brilliant idea to walk about in sargodha (which is fine but what is worse is to assume that someone who lives in pakistan, whom you have never met and know only through this site wouldn`t) -- you say ``from what you gather`` dawn`s machines are 14 years old -- well i suppose your `gatherers` are quite ill-informed because it was around 3 years ago, or less, that they installed a new printing plant in karachi and had the one in karachi sent to islamabad -- that might be 14 years old perhaps but the main print run is done in karachi -- i dont know who is your friend inthe `old dawn` offices in Daryaganj but as i said earlier Dawn moved from Delhi at the time of partition -- your remark `Tangible Benefits due to power of an uhhhhm qualitative nature that accrue to newspaper managements tend to get ploughed back into the media in India` -- again a sweeping generalization and mistatement if ever there was one -- reporters everywhere will try and get favours, not just in pakistan or india but anywhere -- there are bad eggs in all professions -- and if you think the jains or shekhar gupta don`t have friends in very high places and wield considerable influence then you`re probably being a bit unrealistice -- last time i was in india -- in 2002 -- i found that most journalists in senior positions were making considerably less than their counterparts in english newspapers in pakistan -- and this after accounting for the difference in cost of living -- and, veeresh sahib, your statement that the media in Pakistan is as pro-establishement as the one in India was during Mrs Gandhi`s emergency needs to be modified -- actually it is probably the urdu media and it is as pro-establishment as the Indian media is NOW -- and the English media isn`t actually half as pro-establishment in Pakistan -- i suppose you haven`t really read some of its editorials or columnists -- please don`t tell me that you don`t believe this, i wouldn`t expect you to, esp. after your post # 54 which is factually incorrect and where you seem to sound like a spokesman for the Indian Ministry of External Affairs -- i went on a journalist visa to india less than 2 years ago and was explicitly told (it was non-reporting though) not to go beyond delhi and also that Pakistanis were restricted to three cities, the number used to be eight before the attack on the Indian paraliment

NHK #75: ``why not first give rights to our smaller provinces - Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP.``

I am all for this. However, the current discussion was not on small provinces and their rights. All of this should happen simultaneously.

I have regularly been stating, on this site, that it is time that Punjab was split into three provinces. Pakistan is, after the USSR breakdown, I believe, the only country left in the world, where the population of one province is greater than the combined population of the rest of the provinces combined. This is a recipe for disaster. This is one of the primary reasons I actually opposed your comments on promoting Punjabi as a language of instruction.

``And why not give full rights to our minorities and women.``

This is another valid point, and one which I support fully. In fact, one of the reasons I support much of what the current govt. has done is because, unlike previous govts., they have done a lot for minority and women`s rights. Specifically representation in Assemblies. Pakistan`s minorities and women and more enfranchised now, than they have ever been before in the history of the country. They are even more enfranchised than male majorities.

More needs to be done, but this govt. is on the right track.

``We are not ruled by our representatives but our employees - the faugis.``

We have never been ruled by our representatives. We have been ruled either by the fauj or by the feudal. I have issues with being ruled by either. You do not seem to have issues with being ruled by the feudal. This will take a long time to solve. In the meanwhile, the best we can hope for is a govt. that provides economic growth. Once that happens, everything else will fall into place.

``And why should a sane Kashmiri opt to join small troubled state with its own big problems;``

I don`t know. You will ask them. For many people in South Asia, Pakistan is still a compartivie utopia. This includes Biharis, Bangladeshis, Afghanis and Kashmiris.

I can give you my opinion, for whatever its worth. I am wherever I am in life, because of Pakistan. It maybe a small troubled state with big problems. Or it may not be. But it has given me everything and more. If my grandfather`s family had not moved from Srinigar to Muzzafarabad, where would I be today? I have looked hard to find Muslim Kashmiris from India, in my profession, but have been unable to locate any. Yet I have had the opportunity to rise to the top ranks of the military, had I wanted to. To join the civil service, had I wanted to. To get an education that has made me competitive at the highest level of international competition in North America.

This is my motivation for Kashmir joining Pakistan, and that is the direction my family would vote. This does not mean, that every Kashmiri would or should vote in this direction.

Not to comment on your personal life, but I think Pakistan has given you a hell of a lot also. Probably more than it has given most, including me. Most people, who join Sargodha college are from a middle class background. I assume you were also. As was my family, at that point. Now you are wealthy man, with access to the best facilities in the world (as am I). You have seen the whole world, all because of the Pakistan govt., and the jobs it has provided you. You have flying qualifications that are valued anywhere in the world, due to training given by the Pakistan govt. According to your own admission, your educational qualification is quite limited. Where would you be without Pakistan?

``At the end of the day, it is Kashmiris who should be happy regardless of whether with India or Pakistan.``

This is the million dollar point. The day everyone agrees to this, is the day all problems will be solved. This is the something the Indians must accept. Once they accept this, then we can wait the next fifteen years, or even more, to solve the problem. If people do not agree to this, then we are in a long struggle for peace, much like the French and the Germans........And that one took a thousand years or so to solve.......

Romair#66
This is the first reference that google popped up when I inserted the words `hindu human rights violation kashmir`: www.hindu.com/2004/04/07/stories/2004040704070300.htm. It`s a news item from The Hindu.

Romair # 67

(nazarhayatkhan #51: Your points are valid. And I generally agree with them)

That much of agreement is good enough for me.

Just a parting point. Before we talk about the Kashmiri`s rights, why not first give rights to our smaller provinces - Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP. And why not give full rights to our minorities and women. And most of all, why not get our own rights first. We are not ruled by our representatives but our employees - the faugis.

And why should a sane Kashmiri opt to join small troubled state with its own big problems; and not a huge stable democratic liberal state with a promising future.

At the end of the day, it is Kashmiris who should be happy regardless of whether with India or Pakistan.

Romair#66:
If the separatist movement (which is a proper word, not `freedom`) is not based on religion, could you please answer the following question:
-why do the people wanting separation only muslims?
-why did the movement ethnically cleansed kafirs from the valley?
-why are people coming from outside in religiously trained madrassas to support the movement in the name of jihad?
-what economic gains can they expect from leaving kashmir? ...and please dont give me the example of Indians fighting the British again as I have already answered that before.
-have the kashmiris in POK better protected their language and culture than on this side of the LOC? And once again, you might say they don`t care, but as a secular humanist, I do.
-will they get more religious freedom in Pakistan/independent Kashmir than in India, considering what happened to the extinct species, also known as Hindus/Sikhs in POK?
-will they get more provincial autonomy than in India?
-any other tangible benefits of separation?

Hello Romair 72:-

a) For a moment, please assume that you are a potential tourist to India with a clear citizenship from any country in the world, except Pakistan. Please take a careful look at the visa application form for India. It does not ask you your religion. It does not ask you for the port of entry. It does not ask you for the means of entry. It does have questions about criminal records. It simply allows you into India, as a tourist, which includes all of Jammu & Kashmir. It does make a few clear distinctions for those who wish to work, those who wish to evangelise anything and by further assumed exclusion, those who wish to specifically do harm like environmental degradation or anything like paedophilia, which can not be fitted into the description of ``tourism``.

b) The entry and freedom of movement of Pakistanis or people of Pakistani origin into India has a few additional restrictions, which are bilateral between India & Pakistan. Even then, these requirements are easier at the India end. Please ask your Government for a fix on the number of Pakistani ``tourists`` who overstay in India versus Indian ``tourists`` who overstay in Pakistan, if that is a yardstick.

c) The entry and freedom of accredited journalists into India and Pakistan is also on a bilateral basis. This is taken to extreme lengths sometimes, like the banning by Pakistan, of CNN`s American correspondent in Asia, Satinder Bindra.

c) There are specific issues behind in India about commercial photography in context with Archeological Survey, monuments, endangered species and defence. For example, in certain old temples, usage of flash is simply not permitted.

Now let us talk about tourists in Jammu & Kashmir.

There are, on date, 7 civil scheduled flights a day from Delhi to Srinagar, and 4 into Leh. There are, in addition, non-scheduled charters. Nobody has stopped the Pakistani media in Delhi from going to Palam Airport in Delhi and taking a look at tourists going and coming. This includes a vast variety of intrepid and brave ``foreigners`` too. I can not understand where William Baker is coming from, though I do know that conversion is a touchy subject. And I am glad to note that Pakistan is now accepting what Al Gore says as gospel, he has had a lot to say is all I shall say!!

Romair 68:- You would be, I think, more than surprised at my knowledge first-hand of matters in Jammu & Kashmir . . . as well as POK. The international, as well as the leftist, rightist and every other badge, media is/are already there in Kashmir. The human rights organisations are also there. There is, ofcourse, the issue of reciprocal matters . . . if, for example, a British based Humans Right Organisation is unwilling to let others into Ireland, then what does it expect in return? If some sort of ``watchdog`` organisation has Enron, Arthur Anderson, Worldcom/MCI and Parmalat as its supporters, what does it expect in return?

On POK, Romair, I would strongly suggest you tell me a simple fact - how easy is it for a Pakistani from Karachi to go walkabout? In India, on the other hand, most anybody can go walkabout in Jammu & Kashmir.

And that includes women, people of all religions, communities . . . the works.

I am now peeling off from this debate. The points are the same. Thank you, and I wish you would have asked the good Professor how many Israeli tourists seem to visit Jammu & Kashmir regularly. They make the single largest group there, incidentally, and I know, because I help friends set up road (bike, car and cycle) tours for them. Matter of fact, my own personal car is used and has stickers for expeditions into J&K by Israeli tourists. It also carries ``Press`` stickers on it, and I have lost track of the number of times it has gone into J&K, loaded to the roof with cameras and equipment.

vereesh #54: ``The Indian Government does not restrict tourists from any country from visiting Jammu and Kashmir......The Indian Government does not restrict journalists or diplomats from going to any part of the country.``

This is incorrect.

I would like to request you to not portray false pictures of situations. Friendships can never be built on falsities. They can only be built on truth. You need to accept the real situation in Kashmir. Not necessarily solve it yet. But accept it. And then we can move on from there.

Perhaps you are genuinely unaware of the real situation, since the Indian media provides a one-sided view of the situation (as does the Pakistani media, to some extent). I will provide you with excerpts from books, off and on, to give you a correct picture. Hopefully that should convince you. The authors are not from Pakistan, since I don`t follow Pakistani sources on this issue:

1. Aisha Sarwari (assuming it is the same one as the one on this site) - Mantolive`s better half (in more ways than one, dare I say - has (had?) a show called Versa where she interviewed people. She did a very good interview with a gentleman named William Baker on Kashmir. The URL is http://versa.paknews.com/archives.php?page=2.

Mr. Baker is a former college Professor in the fields of Biblical History and Apologetics. His educational background includes: Cincinnati Bible Seminary, Ozark Bible College, Near East Institute of Archaeology, Jerusalem Israel.

His book called, ``Kashmir: Happy Valley, Valley of Death.``

``I had to actually secretly enter the country, since it is sealed....Indian govt. will allow no one, no one, in and out of there, without someone who is going to parrot....a pro-Indian perspective...I was able to get in there and live for 15 days....coming close to being arrested, losing my own life, and beaten to death. I documented with a camera, video and still shots hundreds of photographs`` (William Baker)

The book has a review from Vice President Al Gore. Following is what Al Gore stated, ``The US....urges the govt. of India to re-open up Kashmir to media, human rights organizations, international Red Cross and other relief groups.....`` (Al Gore)

I hope you will take the time to listen to the interview. I would like to discuss it with you. I am not going to provide all the excerpts here from his book - they are too graphic.

If yo are still not convinced, and are bent upon stating, ``the Indian Government does not restrict journalists or diplomats from going to any part of the country,`` I will be more than happy to provide you with excerpts from a list of other international authors, who will validate what I have been saying.

And I will be looking forward to debating the interview, once you hear it.

re:#53 by veeresh
A good post.
I also read the same travalogues u wrote in outlookindia. Only, latter is more pleasing to the eye and is an easy read (contents being the same).
Our friend Romair knows all that u say in your post but he suffers from a ``super-ego`` cultivated during his stint in the Paki Army, where everyone is taught 1 muslim = 10 hindus and Kashmir belongs to Pak.

``I ask you:- what`s wrong with that? Indians try to move women up in Kashmir, Indians try to move the economy up in Kashmir, Indians try to improve communications in Kashmir, tourism is up and away this year. And you point at figures pertaining to deaths in Kashmir, many of which are because of people trained in camps in Pakistan do not like Kashmir coming up on its won strength?``
The only thing wrong from POV of Romair is that these Indians are (in his opinion) Indoos, and he, as a trained Marshall, ain`t liking it one bit.
Sridhar

re: Romair`s post (whatever)

``Human rights organizations and international media is allowed openly in Israel, and actually follows Israeli bulldozers as they raze houses. It is allowed in Iraq to see what Americans are doing. And even George Bush starts shaking in his pants, if he is shown a few photos of US soldiers torturing Iraqis.``

Israel brooks no nonsense when it comes to dealing with the terrorist vermins. Has Romair been reading lately how Hamas leaders are being assasinated? And, Sharon gets to sip beer with Bush when he visits Washington DC as an endorsement of his policies!

Who cares what human right activists write or think? They don`t make defense policies. They may create a big noise but that is about it.
India does not allow international human rights in Kashmir because it thinks the step impinges on its interests. As simple as that. NO one denies that, while army is defending its turf, some innocent civilians get killed. Allowing human rights activists from outside India would only make things worse and give unnecessary ammunition in the hands of foreign powers to browbeat India. How many human rights activists covered the Iraq war? And, are the human right activists making any impact on the Israelis? See my point?

Besides, as a genuine democrazy that is right now conducting the most massive electoral exercise the world has ever seen and doing it efficiently, India sees no reason to allow foreigners anywhere near its jurisdiction. This kind of thinking is common among Pakis who cannot even have a census organized (leave aside regular elections) for many decades and who seem to need some foreign stamp on everything for authenticity!

India thinks it has mechanisms in place to deal with internal problems, including human rights problems. So, it has its own version of human rights organisation which makes a lot of noise in Kashmir as it did following Gujarat riots. We are now witnessing some salutary effects of that in the Bilkis Bano case in Gujarat. May be, they will make an impact in Kashmir too, who knows?
Sridhar

re:#45 by optimum
Welcome to Chowk.
You start with a bang! A great post.
(That led me to conclue that one of the major contributor is the very idea of creation of a state/nation/country on the grounds of religion, be it Islam or Judaism. Since the very idea of such a state negates and contradicts the fundamentals of the concept of nationality and thus inevitably reflects on the general attitude of the society and its members who are made to adopt a ``forced identity``.)
You have hit upon a concept that most Pakis are not aware of. It would interest u to know that for this very reason, even Gandhiji was opposed to creation of Israel as well as Pakistan.
What have u to say to a Kerala muslim who has lived all his life in Kerala, spoken Malayalam all his life, shared a common culture with his hindu and christian neighbours? That he does not belong there because he is a muslim and so, should move to Pakistan which was created for muslims!
Creating a nationstate on the basis of religion uproots people who are rooted to their cultural mileau for centuries. This is what happened to a lot of Indians and Pakis after partition.
Please read this heart rending article from a Paki professor (now in Stockholm, Sweden):
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=333203
The above article tells the tale of uprooted cultures, destroyed lives and aspiratons all because of religion misused towards nefarious political ends.
Sridhar

vereesh #53: ``Get a life, Romair. Take a look at the numbers on Pakistani Kashmiris visiting India, and not returning back, if that is a benchmark.``

Vereesh, I must say it is amazing that you, an Indian non-Kashmiri, are giving me, a lecture on what Pakistani Kashmiris are doing. How often have you been to any city in Pakistan`s part of Kashmir, may I ask you? A large portion of my family lives there, and has lived there since 47. Perhaps I know a bit more about the people there than you do.

If you genuinely want peace between India and Pakistan (which I think you do), you cannot and should not be afraid of the truth coming out to the forefront. Don`t be afraid of it. Embrace it. I am not afraid of being proven wrong. Why are you so afraid?

All I am suggesting is that let the internaitonal human rights organizations into Kashmir. And let the international media into Kashmir. That is it. As a journalist yourself, I assume you would support that. After that, we can both let them show us what is going on.

I am not expecting you to agree with whatever I say. I am willing to admit I may be wrong, even if I have done a lot of research on this topic. All I am asking for is to allow others to validate your comments. Once they have been validated, I will have no argument left.

nazarhayatkhan #51: Your points are valid. And I generally agree with them.

But do keep in mind, that solutions to problems have to be based on practicalities, within boundaries and frameworks, which can legitimately lead to results. They cannot be based solely on touchy-feely, not-asking-for-taxi-fare friendliness, for too long. If this is all they are based on, then, they will come crashing down, when the real issues need to be handled.

If you get a chance to study the history of EU, you will find that much of its creation was based on linking economies so that the two historic warring powers of Europe - Germany and France - stopped fighting.

Germany and France have lost more people, historically, in single battles, than Pakistan and India have lost in all of their wars combined. Our violence pales in comparison to theirs. Do read the Battle of Verdun, if you get the chance. In an area of less than 10 square kilometers of Verdun, during WW1, Germany and France suffered an estimated 700,000 casualities, in a battle of only ten months. This is just one battle, of one of the many wars, these two countries have fought.

Alsace-Lorraine can be considered the Kashmir of Germany and France. Both countries have fought countless wars over it, with the areas changing hands, back and forth, over a period of centuries.

Yet today Germany and France maybe the two friendliest and most integrated countries in the world. I assume one could bike through the Alsace and Lorriane, without knowing where France stops and Germany starts.

This has been done, not only by integrating economies, but by genuinely dealing with each others` concerns, and by one never trying to dominate the other. EU has thus achieved its success, and even if it leads to no economic growth, its affect on European peace is enough to justify it.

This is why I have always been the biggest advocate of opening visas and trade with India. My comments are well-documented on this site, on this issue. Pakistan had do do that part. Which it has now done, to a great degree. Now I am advocating that India should accept the real situation in Kashmir. It doesn`t have to solve it, now. But it should at least acknowledge it, i.e. not try to paint it as a terrorist movement, but as a legitimate freedom struggle.

It is extremely dangerous to start peace process, without acceptance or recognition of problems. This does not mean that one should find a solution immediately, but one does have to define the problem one is trying to solve, and agree on an abstract framework of a solutions that will be acceptable to both parties. Then it can take fifteen years to get to an exact solution. No problem.

Following is what I fear will happen, if Indians are unwilling to admit that there is a freedom struggle in kashmir and not a terrorist movement:

Pakistan and India will start trading, and integrating their economies. Everything will be hunky-dory, for a while. Then we will get to the only issue that is a problem from Pakistan`s side, i.e. Kashmir. India will refuse to budge. It will insist that Pakistanis just forget about it, since they are (or should be, according to India) tired of it.

What happens then?

If Pakistanis just forget about it, well and good. If not for Kashmiris, at least in the short term, for Indians and Pakistanis. What if the Pakistani awam, as a group, says it cannot just forget about it? i.e. it wants it solved, and not just shoved under the carpet.

You need to keep in mind that the average Pakistani`s views on Kashmir, rightly or wrongly, are far different from yours. They are unwilling to just forget it. Maybe they should, but I doubt they will. They have moved on, and don`t want to go to war over it. But this is different from not wanting a solution for it. This includes both religious and secular groups (and humanists, like myself, who don`t see it as a nationalistic or religious or secular issue, but as a human rights issue). While 85% of Pakistanis are tired of fighting over it, and want a peaceful solution, a similar percentage also consider it the main problem with India. They will, thus, rightly or wrongly, not accept the status quo.

If at that crucial moment, India demands the status quo, everything will come crashing down like a deck of cards. After that, it will be ten times more difficult to get any sort of peace proces going. Because people will be convinced that nothing is going to work.

So, what I am suggesting is that negotiations should not be held hostage to Kashmir, from both sides. Not just from Pakistan`s side. Pakistan should be patient and work on other things. India should define a framework and admit that is will budge on its status-quo stance of Kashmir. At the very least, it should accept it as a freedom struggle and not a terrorist movment. After that, there are a million ways to solve it, over the coming years, in a patient manner.

So, don`t insist on cracking the nut, right now. I agree with you on that. But at least, ensure that both parties are talking about the same nut. And will not surprise each other, five years from now, by pulling out different nuts from their pockets......

dost-mittar #49: ``I am sure that Pakistan will not let it do so. In any case, it would be in India`s interests to resolve the issue and get it over with.``

This is what everyone is placing their bets on. Lets hope what you say is correct. My faith is in people like yourself, from the Indian side. Though you have disappointed me in your comments, painting Kashmir as something other than a freedom struggle. Comments of a secularists, and not a humanist. Quite unfortunate. That leaves Shankar as the sole Indian, who is willing to to admit it as such.

``You will find tons of references if you enter kashmir, human rights and indian newspapers.``

Please point me to some. Other than Arundhati Roy, and an odd human rights organizations, I have been able to find nothing. Specifically nothing in the mainstream media. Perhaps I don`t know where to look.

veeresh. .

if i may interject. . .

it isn`t easy saying what you just did and remaining credible, but it is possible. i don`t know how, but it just is.

thank you for saying it nevertheless. . .reading some of your posts scattered throughout, i`ve had the urge to give you a big hug. would your wife mind?!

regards,
n~

dostmittar 63 . . . on the Kirpals, I could write the definitive book. Let me know when you are in Delhi next?

AhmedBilal 60:- . . . sirji, I am not being holier than thou. I do agree visa terms between our countries are terrible, but IMHO those are only for crossing borders. Once in the ``opposite`` country, what prevents you and me from going walkabout?

My own visa and conditions therein, were/was quite strict, it said ``Islamabad/Rawalpindi only and no cantonment areas`` and I signed a whole lot of stuff, and I had my teenaged son along so that was a risk too . . . and then I just did the sub-Continental truths which is take my chances and in addition I wrote about it . . . .and you know what, a few hours ago I got a phone call from ``somebody`` at the Pak High Commision here in context with what I wrote and they said what do you want on your next Pak visa and I said I want sovereign guarantees to be able to go iwalkabout n Pakistan wherever a camel and/or a bus can take me and they said ``well that`s OK if you do it but we can`t give a visa which says that``. So that is that? I met enough Urdu journos from Multan who had a visa for Delhi only, and they went walkabout all over India. Why don`t you that too?

On Kashmir and POK . . . give me a break? Please visit Jammu & Kashmir before talking? What has stopped any intrepid Pakistani journalist from taking a chance? Oh yes, they can hang around Lodhi Garden and Khan Market and come on tv and give us page-3 kind of reportage. Even I could have hung around Blue Area and Abparaa and Marriot, right? What is a search in life about if there is no risk?

On Gujarat, have you seen what the Indian Supreme Court and High Courts are doing? In any case, what locus standii do Pakistanis have to talk about Muslims in Gujarat when there is such abject denial about Muslims in Bangladesh and elsewhere? Let us get real?

Anyways, as Godot says rightly, in 62, its not funny, it is very sad. I could not agree with him and others more.

Appreciate where I am coming from. My country and flag is India, my loyalties are India, and I shall gladly wear a uniform again if it comes to that. But Pakistan is the land of my forefathers, and what I see happening there is not good either. There is a media with newspapers at 15/-, sorry about belabouring a point. There is a conflict here, where I would like to say that while I remain Indian, an injustice in Pakistan does not honour my soul either. And so if we take a scale, a weighing scale, then the way it tips in Pakistan is terrible.

How do I, as an Indian, say that to you, as a Pakistani, and still remain credible? You tell me.