From Jinnah to Jamali

... ` We have to pay a collective debt of accountability for the past three hundred years`..kindly spare me from that...i have made enough sacrifices to the sense of duty...please speak for yourself alone.
cheers my friend!

jay #59 You write ``Now let take the fertlity decline. The relevant question is when was the last census carried out in pakistan. Is there any birth and death registers, and how reliable is it. ``

If you knew anything about demography, which obviously you dont, you would know that in measuring things like fertility declines, census are of limited use (being few and far between) and birth/death registers in third world countries are virtually useless. What demographers go by are things special surveys. And it is generally recognized that the fertility decline in Pakistan is now well underway (having started sometime in the mind 1990`s).

But ignorance never stopped you from passing your opinons. Why am I wasting time even responding to your post? Because fmk`s refusal to even consider anything specific that contradicts his foregone conclusions, you at least mentioned something specific I had said. This puts you in a cut above the author of this article. And that is not saying much. Given that you never allowed your ignorance to come in the way of your ideology. And given that your obsession with demonizing Pakistan has driven you mad.

pakistani discourse,

Post by bilal 52 and an earlier post by tahmed are the best of examples of pakistani mind set. Both claim that they ahve better understanding of the pak situation, for bilal, it is told by his brother who works for WB, and for tahmed, it is from one in high pak circles. We all have heard the same, one hell of a lot from romair, I talked to the ISI, i knew general blah blah.
This is the pak mind, the truth comes from the relatives, and the one whom they talked. There is no concept of objective reality, trying to sythesise from the very nature of the system.
Now let take the fertlity decline. The relevant question is when was the last census carried out in pakistan. Is there any birth and death registers, and how reliable is it.

Let us have a check. I checked the lahore death register, Sami Sarwar is not dead. Now I know another reason why honour killing is leagal in pakistan.

It is really a tragedy that the educated, the western educated like ahmedbila and tahmed will resort to the most unscientific approach, my brother tols me and it should be true. One can forgive romair, the marching with heavy boots are proven to shake the brains to a pulp.
How can one explain tahmed, well it is education, s for stupidity, to deviate from my usual pharase.

Alephnul 56 - ````Is there any reason to believe that the Pakistani establishment actually wants the country to make progress (in the sense of universal education, a mature and aware public, etc)? Might they be shooting for a different model instead? ````

You got a point.

Would I be excused an India comparative here, specifically towards parts of South and West India? We have a very strong and socially aware vernacular media in these parts of India, available to all, and it has nothing to do with advertisement revenue either. I think that is very important for ``mind bending``.

Now in Pakistan, I think, the media (English and vernacular) are married to the establishment, minor noises here and there aside. That is where it starts from.

Good luck . . .

HP:

Briliant, innovative thinking .... Karl Marx and Jamaat-e-Islami?????!!!! ... certainly hadnt heard this one before not accused of it. Take it easy, kid!

Farrukh M Khan

tahamad32:

The quality of language employed by a person may or may not depict objective reality but it certainly betrays a lot about the personal culture of the person speaking. So by calling me a JAHIL, sir, you have only exposed yourself for what you are. You won`t get a response from me from now onwards ...

Good day to you,

Farrukh M Khan

Ahmadbilal:

Yes we should be happy if something positive happens. But we must always, as responsible individuals and thinkers, be able to look beneath the apparent and analyse what is true. And as for me suggesting something to the government, I have never been in that big a position to SUGGEST any thing to them. Neither have I been a foreign educated consultant to whom they listen only during the period before the loan is approved ... once the money comes in the govt coffers, even their suggestion are made a part of the infinitely deep filing dump we call Islamabad.

For a good analysis of what is going on in Pakistan`s economy I would suggest two links:
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2004-daily/25-04-2004/oped/o6.htm
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2004-daily/02-05-2004/oped/o4.htm

Farrukh M Khan

HP #53

{{It took western civilization years of efforts and unabashed exploitation and colonization of poor little countries and people to get to where they are now.}}

OK

{{Pakistan does not have all those benefits. It has not colonized any country, it is not yet involved in any exploitation of other countries}}

Not true, IMO. East Pakistan was colonized for 24 years. More recently Afghanistan was taken over by proxy in the effort to colonize Central Asia, grab its mineral resources, and allow Pakistan’s elite to get rich without doing much work, just like the Saudi ruling family. Further, the way Baluchistan has been treated can best be described as internal colonization. Similar remarks can probably be made for Northern Areas and POK. Parasitism happens in many ways, internal as well as external. If the Pakistani ruling establishment has not been more successful at colonization, it is not for want of trying.

{{and it will mostly have to rely on its own resources to make some progress.}}

Resources are of two major kinds – natural resources, and human resources. Either or both may be developed or exploited, to different degrees, depending on your economic or civilizational model.

{{When you make progress education becomes universal, people mature and all the things happen that author envisions them to happen.}}

Is there any reason to believe that the Pakistani establishment actually wants the country to make progress (in the sense of universal education, a mature and aware public, etc)? Might they be shooting for a different model instead?

“Leaders and leadership (quality and institution, both) do not develop in a vacuum…..having deeper sensitivities and better understanding.”

For the last three or four days, I was trying to figure out what the author has in mind. There are some strong words used in the article and apperently the author is totally disgusted with Pakistan and the People of Pakistan.

I read the last para as quoted above several times and initially I thought the writer was just breathing his own exhaust. I would have really appreciated it, if the author had explained: what timeframe he had in mind for things to happen as he would like them to happen. Like Cultural renaissance does not happen overnight. How long it would take to fill the Vacuum to develop the leadership?

I always thought societies go thru the moral and social decay and some recover from that and others don’t. Human history is full of stories of nations that just fell and could not recover. It took western civilization years of efforts and unabashed exploitation and colonization of poor little countries and people to get to where they are now. Pakistan does not have all those benefits. It has not colonized any country, it is not yet involved in any exploitation of other countries and it will mostly have to rely on its own resources to make some progress. When you make progress education becomes universal, people mature and all the things happen that author envisions them to happen. But it seems to me that the author wants every thing to happen before that poor country called Pakistan could even think about any economic progress. I think this is pontification and I am kind of thinking if we sprinkle this article with word “Islam” a wee bit then it will show writer’s true bent. Like “Islamic cultural renaissance” etc.

I also gather that Author apparently is not in some religious pontification mode but his sermon certainly smells like rightwing battle cry.

If the author is not in this religious mode than what is the deal with “collective debt of accountability for the past three hundred years of our history”. What is our collective debt? Pakistan does not have a collective debt. May be Muslims have a collective debt. And that leads me to believe one more time that the author is actually pontificating about the “Islamic cultural renaissance” and his dream of Pakistan is actually some Islamic cultural renaissance in the mold of Saudi Arabia and other champions of Orthodoxy. That terrorist OBL is probably the ideal he has in mind when he calls for Cultural renaissance.

The use of phrases like” existing rotten culture” or “repugnance towards our existing cultural pothole” or ``Acting as a regional goon of Western powers`` sound so much like Jamat Islami propaganda line that I am afraid; it actually is JI propaganda being fed to us again w/o using the word Islam repeatedly.

Please explain to us what is wrong with our culture that is not wrong with other least develop countries’ cultures. We have problems in our society but which society does not have problems? Why do we have to be ‘PURE’ before we can make progress?

In what economic law it is written that a country has to be pure to make any progress. Sure nobody wants Status quo but there is no status quo in economy. It moves forward or backward. Status quo happens in positions but in politics that is only a perception; things always move. We don’t have status quo in Pakistani society, it is evolving then why this author talking about ``emotive repugnance ``?

#35 by fmk on May 4, 2004 2:07pm PT

Farrukh, I am not talking about the government propaganda. My source of information includes someone who (besides being my brother) is working closely with the British and Pakistani governments as well as the World Bank. He was in the US last month to have meetings with the World Bank for the loan I was referring to. That`s when we last talked about it and we did discuss the negative aspects too, like the quality of life factor you mentioned and unemployment etc. We are in a difficult position, and no one is denying that. But if something positive (however insignificant it might be) is happening, shouldn`t we be looking forward to build on it further? You mentioned that you have been working closely with the government. It would be interesting if you could write something about where the government is going wrong in terms of the economic policy, and what have you suggested to them to change that. Thanks.

Rozaiba, just for interest,
Even a small industry is hounded by over 22 inspectors from the central, provincial and the district government. They all extort money. A community water treatment plant like they are installing in Rawalpindi is awarded for about Rs.330,000/ including the cost of construction of a room. Rs.150,000/ go for the taxes and commissions. Rs100,000/ is the cost of masonary. The contracter makes a profit of 30,000/ What the user gets is junk, unsafe for human consumption.
Pakistan institute for standards and quality controls is yet another democles sword hanging over the industry. What they do is yet another tale.
Cheerios

fmk #49 i have listed some very specific aspects of the pakistan economy. Those dont seem to interest you since you have not discussed even one of them. Instead you condemn me for daring to point to examples that contradict what you say.

Congratulations. You have just demonstrated the mindset of a jahil.

Ijaz Gul:

Institutions are the only way out.

As for ENTREPRENEURS- they are indeed the real heartbeat of Pakistan. It is because of their spirit that the country has managed to progress despite all the hurdles created by the ruling elite with its destructive policies.

Traveling across the GT road, one can see this spirit brimming with energy, searching and creating alternative ways to succeed in life.

Nevertheless, any aspiring business person – particularly those of small unit industrial set-ups aspire to see STANDARDS placed and they all voice the hindrance caused by the lack of procedural standards. They don’t want to have to bribe at every level – from electric and utility companies to the tax man to get things done.

Once again, this shows Farrukh’s assessment that the government has not been able to create policies that encourage the immense informal sector to join the State in developing a business environment that encourages growth rather than encouraging the criminal elements to want use the growth as an invitation to extort more out of them. Of course no one wants to pay taxes – the massive fraud schemes associated with currency exchangers reveal how all types of businessmen indulge in tax evasion and avoidance. However such activity is again more a product of lack of channels of participation which can define business friendly policies than anything else.

If offered channels and institutions through which those of the informal sector can participate in, it could open the way for a challenger to emerge to break down the hold of the current elite.

Anyway, the studies and views of political economy are attention-grabbing. They may offer the best means for change. Look forward to reading and contributing to more from you and Farrukh.

Cheers!

tahmad32:

Sir, if you want to live in a fools’ paradise you are more than welcome to do that. But kindly do not insult my intelligence by throwing this kindergarten stuff at me. If being realistic about where we stand today sounds cynical to you, I feel sorry for you. ... Google I thought was a search engine according to my latest knowledge, i.e., rakes up what people upload on the WWW ... since when did it become a source of authentic data, per say? I have very closely seen how these foreign consultants (data chefs to be more close to your description) work and the secondary data that they rely on. So please do not throw at me what Professor Google tells you ... have the heart and courage to THINK about what you are saying.

Farrukh M Khan

Excellent analysis Farrukh

fmk #41 just saying figures are fudged and cooked is not enough. i pointed to some specific things that are generally accepted and easily verified from multiple sources using google.

To take one example: on the fertility rate drop, i was told of this recently by a man whose job it is to keep track of these things. and he is no fool, let me assure you, and knows as much about cooked figures as anyone and could probably teach all the section officers in pakistan new ways of cooking figures, including chinese, mexican, african, continental, depending on taste. But the fact remains, that you can cook a chicken any way you like - chicken jalfraezi or sweet and sour chicken - no one will confuse the final result with being beef steak.

If you still remain hopelessly cynical, then dont take my word for it. Go to google and search on something like ``Pakistan fertility`` and you will see lots of different sources corraborating this. Of course some section officer in islamabad may have fixed google too so all the articles are also cooked. :-)

The same goes for other things I pointed to. I dont make stuff up my friend.

And wait...while i am on the subject, did i mention tax reforms? looks like the ITO (income tax officer) is going to have trouble making his tenth house: self-assessments are being introduced. no longer does the tax filler have to go to the ITO to negotiate his tax return. as i understand, the first year tax returns (income plus tax) have gone up a significant amount (30 percent as I recall, although i could be wrong).

So, as said. All is not gloom and doom. Nor of course do I wish to sound that pakistan is on its way to becoming an Asian tiger. However, pakistan is no dead kitten either.