From Jinnah to Jamali

Re: # 92

Oh, ho ho! The great Hamdani coming down from his padestal to borrow words from me?! Who could have thought we would live to see this day?

I am waiting when you will start weeping, kiddo?!


Farrukh

``You have laid yourself bare for everyone to see what an intellectual dwarf filled with a lot of hot air looks and behaves like.``

Perfect - if only you would know how well you`ve described your writings here.

Re: # 90

There is nothing to assume any more, my dear. You have laid yourself bare for everyone to see what an intellectual dwarf filled with a lot of hot air looks and behaves like.

Cheers,
Farrukh

Still assuming I see?

Re: # 88

Well, Sir. I am and I am sure any one else who might be reading this await your ``higher and deeper understanding`` of Raza`s work. Being associated with the man in his law business and on an occassional social basis is a lot different from spending day in and day out working with him for six years of one`s life.

Here is my phone number 0300-4604229. If you have an iota of courage or substance to what you are yapping about, give me a call and talk to me in person instead of hiding behind these stupid nick names.

Good day to you,
Farrukh Mehboob Khan

Dear Farrukh,

Very bad attempt at defending yourself my dear.

You article continues to be in the pits of intellectual ignorance- not to mention a superficial understanding of what Raza is saying.

I too have been associated with Raza Kazim and the usage of the word ``eccentricities`` was affectionate, and I am sure Mr Kazim understands that.

Yours sincerely

YLH

Dear Readers,

This is with refernce to Mr. Yasser Lateef Hamdani’s (Mantolives’) recent remarks about my article titled “From Jinnah to Jamali” on Chowk.com. I would start off with an apology to my readers for not having declared before that the above cited article was based on what I learnt and the notes I kept during my six years long association (1995-2001) with Mr. Raza Kazim. During this period, I worked as a research associate at the philosophy department of Sanjan Nagar Institute of Philosophy & Arts, an organization founded by Mr. Kazim in 1995, based in Lahore, Pakistan. Mr. Kazim, whom I consider my teacher in much more than mere political philosophy, is a highly respected name in the circles of non-conforming politics and philosophy of life in Pakistan but much calumniated by the opposite camp. However, it is my sincere submission that this act of omission was not with a malicious intent but only because I wanted the contents of the article be judged on their merit and not shot down in light of any prejudicial predisposition that Mr. Hamdani has termed as Mr. Kazim’s “eccentricities”.

Despite this, to call me an “idiot” and my work a “regurgitative copy” of Mr. Kazim’s ideas not only bespeaks of Mr. Hamdani’s basic ignorance of Mr. Kazim’s work (and the level of my association with it) but also betrays a small mind whose narrowness is compounded by pompousness that comes almost naturally to those few Pakistanis who get to spend some time at a foreign university. In Punjabi we have a proverb that quite aptly describes the state of Mr. Hamdani’s mind and his type – khoti thaney ton ho aaeei hai (the she-ass has been to the police station). Those who, like me, have read the intellectual humbug Mr. Hamdani spreads through his writings on Chowk.com, can well understand how appropriately this proverb applies to him.

Regards,
Farrukh M Khan

This idiot is only regurgitating the ideas and eccentricities of Raza Kazim, whose whole view he has shamelessly copied and reproduced here... without any credit.

Ref fmk #83

[I replied that India had done much better than us … no doubt about that … but they also have problems ... and I mentioned religion and caste problem as one of the major ones. ... And I thought that unlike the siege mentality of trigger happy patriots of Pakistan I would get more understanding responses from the other side of the Great Divide, but my impression was soon to fade away with comments made by mohar and harimau ... Their absolute negation of the existence of such a problem really astonished me.]

I think I gave you a pretty comprehensive reply on the IT industry but you had no response to that. All of a sudden, you are accusing me of denying the existence of the problems of caste.

The question is: what prevents people from different segments of society (be they Muslims or Dalits) from participating in the economic boom? Are there government policies in effect in India that deny opportunities to certain segments of society?

The answer has to be `No`.

Education, particularly professional education in Engineering, Medicine and Health Sciences, has been freed from the evil clutches of the government. Anybody with enough money can start a college and pretty much admit whomever they choose to, so long as they comply with government rules. So anybody can start an engineering college subject to approval by AICTE (All India Committee on Technical Education), automatically gain affiliation with a local university which is run by the state, and admit anybody under the management quota which is 50% of the total seats in that institution. If after a while the college demonstrates reasonable management practices and offers a broad variety of courses, it even becomes a ``deemed`` university running its own affairs. The only requirement for a medical college is that it must have a hospital up and running for several years before one can start a medical college.

One particular group of colleges run by the SRM group in Chennai (they run SEVERAL engineering colleges, a college for Dentistry, one for Nursing and another for Physical Therapy in addition to several Arts and Science colleges for a total of 13) took in Rs. 300 crores (no typo there, three hundred crores of rupees) last year. This is more than what several manufacturing companies earn in annual revenues. The SRM group is not owned by brahmins or kshatriyas.

Similarly, a Christian gentleman (well, knowing his antecedents I hesitate to use that word to describe this person but what the heck) runs 3 engineering colleges around Chennai, one deemed university and has now started a residential school for grades 6-12.

Minority institutions have gone all the way to the Supreme Court of India and have got a judgment declaring they can do pretty much what they want with the management quota seats... which means they sell them to the highest bidders.

Are there any Muslim institutions along these lines? I know of at least a couple, Crescent Engineering College and Mohammad Sathak College of Engineering both just outside my hometown Chennai. There are probably more in Tamil Nadu, my home state.

So what prevents the Wakf Boards in various states from starting professional colleges? Why are they farting around about Haj subsidies and who gets to go on Haj?

As for Dalits, they have reservations galore in all walks of life.

Why is it that not one Christian in India complains about discrimination in educational opportunities but the Muslims can`t say one good word about the system in India?

People need to get off their butts if they want to get ahead. Bemoaning one`s fate ain`t going to get one anywhere in life.

fmk
Commonwealth of india is a new term increasingly used by economists to describe india, even by some in the ``shining` government, that may not be there day after tomorrow.However,what you say is true, that there are vast areas of non or underdevelopment.But one has to start somewhere and the indians have opted for the ``trickle down effect``, indian style.And people in rural areas are waking up to the fact that they cannot expect handouts but have to actively participate in that nation`s development to reap their share of benefits.Slowly but surely they will.As far as Laloo, his wife didn`t commit a crime or hold public office prior where she can be judged, so why doesn`t she have the right to have the right to take her husband`s place, if, and that`s the key word...if, her party and the majority in bihar are ok with it .So be it.That`s real democracy for you.It`s the people in the villages who decide the fate of government in india not the elite , the industralists, the educated or the rich.And they must be pretty smart `cause India won`t be where it is without the full cooperation of all.Hey we might have an italian born PM whose only credential is that she married rajiv gandhi.And, i might add economic liberalization was started by the congress govt. of prime minister narasimha rao and executed by his finance minister dr.manmohan singh..

niranjan:

You have more or less endorsed my point of view ... you see my comments about India started when a Pakistani respondents to my article asked why hasn’t India followed the same path towards social, economic and cultural deterioration as Pakistan has, since we both share the same pre-colonial and colonial past. I replied that India had done much better than us … no doubt about that … but they also have problems ... and I mentioned religion and caste problem as one of the major ones. ... And I thought that unlike the siege mentality of trigger happy patriots of Pakistan I would get more understanding responses from the other side of the Great Divide, but my impression was soon to fade away with comments made by mohar and harimau ... Their absolute negation of the existence of such a problem really astonished me.

As for Laloo Parsad`s banning from taking part in election ... he has really made a mockery of the whole situation by putting Rabarri Devi of all the people in his own place at the helm of affairs in Bihar... and its not just Bihar, more than seventy percent of India lives in villages out of which nearly 2/3 don’t have any accessibility other than Katcha Roads (non asphalt) , with little or no access to clean drinking water or regular electricity. Try telling the story of India`s wonderful economic progress to people living in these areas and you know very well what will be their response. ... Now having said this, there is no denying the upsurge in wealth generated by India (about distribution I have my doubts) during the past 15 years or so and that Pakistan should take a leaf out of this book to develop solutions to our own problems.

I never knew that India is known as a ``common wealth of nations`` which it ought to be. By my latest information it is called Bahrat in Hindi and the Republic of India in English.

Farrukh M Khan

fmk
let me clarify.Yes there are problems in indian society, but which one doesn`t.The main reason why India is being noticed for its achievements is `cause all Indians rich and poor, i might add have begun to work together for the development of the whole country.Caste ,ethnic and religious conflicts occur but the majority will not allow the few to usurp the common agenda and such conflicts will be quickly suppressed.Unlike in Pakistan where a few mullahs or the army by force of faith and rhetoric can hijack a nation for their own selfish goals.India is not one homogenous country.It is a commonwealth of smaller nations akin to the european union.Initially disparities will exist in a developmental phase.laloo yadav can strut like a peacock in Bihar and say and do atrocious things, but he is debarred from holding office in Bihar and he did comply with the law, didn`t he?.He cannot go outside Bihar and behave like he does there.No Way.And he would not have been able to stand for parliament if the Election Commission had debarred him from doing so.There is a certain line that even the most powerful cannot cross in India, where the common man can vote and unseat a powerful government and they will have to comply.Businessmen too have fair laws under which they operate.The consumer in India is king.Simply put.

As far as caste is concerned ,it has been around for a long time and therfore will take a long time to pass.Time and progression will change things.However, if a citizen wants to vote for someone just `cause he`s from the same caste then he has a right to do so.That`s real democracy for you.No point blaming the laloo`s and the rss etc. for that.The good comes with the bad.If the people of bihar want laloo and slow development , then they have elected to do so and they get the government they deserve.The rest of India might do differently.But, we`re all indians and committed to the preservation of the nation state ,which includes propping up non-productive states such as bihar, if the need arises.That`s why we are known as the commonwealth of india.Pakistan should try to take a leaf out of india`s book. Why not??

niranjan:

Thanks for the comment. But you will need to read the article more carefully to make a fair comment ... It is lot tougher to comprehend fully than you care to believe ... and no where in it have I tried malign India in any way. On the other hand, if we are to take a page out of India’s book, as you have put it, to get our house in order, then wont we be better off if we better understood India`s progress to where they are now? By avoiding to repeat their mistakes.

However, if you r mentioning my exchange with mohar and hirmau, as I said before I would stand corrected to whatever extent information has been provided to me which is on the contrary to what I knew before. But I still stand by my argument that India is still to do way with fissures in its social fabric on the basis of caste and religion.

Farrukh M Khan

Dear fmk,
I`m an Indian living in nyc and am interested an events in the subcontinent, like most of us from there.Btw, i`m from Chennai ,i don`t speak hindi(hate it,love India)and a north indian brother is as alien to me culturally as a pakistani.My question is this....why when you are discussing pakistan`s slow and long descent into the toliet bowl of nations , do ye have to bring India into the picture??.Why??.You see , the secret to India`s success is that we have started to worry about ourselves and not our neighbors.We are taking care of our own house and we`re doing a mighty good job of it , as the rest of the world thinks so.Hey, the TATA Indica, an indian designed/developed motorcar is now exported to the UK and badged as the ROVER metro.Such a thing twenty years ago would have been unthinkable.I`ve seen Mahindra motors Scorpio SUV`s in southern europe.I`ve been proud to be an Indian at that moment.Most of India is now working hard and the politicians have been served notice that they too have to clean up their act.And we have a fine President, dr.abdul kalam who i`m sure will not tolerate misbehaviour in excess by any politician.He`s a fellow indian Tamilian , like myself, doesn`t speak hindi, yet is the C-in-C of all India.That`s why India is shining, among many other fine such examples.Maybe it`s time pakistan took a page out of india`s book and starts learning.

Tahmed 32,
Since many have taken excpetion to the issue of collective debt and fmk has refused to reply to you, I have my own views.

COLLECTIVE DEBT.
Yes, we have to rid the collective debt. Barring Jinnah and some progressive leaders around him, all others were the product of opportunity and political flexibility. Eversince, the flavour of politics and governance in Pakistan has not changed.This is just one installemnt of the collective debt.

AS FOR TAHMED`S POINTS
I think you are over optimistic and assured about the true economic health. If the cell phone liecences will help bring in some 500million $, then this same establishment is guilty of thwarting investments over 12 billion $ in the past few years. It has something to do with the very investor unfriendly atmosphere in the country. The man who keeps the files and writes the comments on notings is more concerned with his advantages rather than the benefit of the country.
As regards the fantastic taxation regime and sales tax, please read my posts on the subject.
Even then if you have querries, please raise the issue once again. The boss of the bureau of statistics knows a hang about economy.

JAY
Sometimes I respect your comments for objectivity but you cannot resist making things an Indo Pak issue. Pakistan does not depend on OBL or his likes. There are more Pakistanis to work positively and progressively than the few, you want to make the show case for Pakistan.
Cheerios

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#73 by jay on May 7, 2004 6:11am PT

I appreciate your concern, but you are being critical just for the sake of it. Everyone has a right to cite anything through any source, and everyone has a right to be critical about the news, instead of getting into useless debates on where the news is coming from. And actually that`s where it all started when I was told that what I was saying was just government propaganda, and I felt compelled to cite the source. And yes, I feel privileged to be able to get information from a number of diverse sources (including you). By the way, you don’t seem too keen to accept the numbers either. I would like to quote your response about numbers in your post #61: “Thses are simply some numbers cooked up to satisfy the WB and IMF.” Thanks.

It is refreshing to see someone taking the responsibility to think earnestly and not for the sake of mere dinner/drawing room conversations. Way to go Farrukh Khan!

#70 by fmk on May 7, 2004 0:58am PT

Farrukh, one can`t live in isolation in the 21st century. Overseas Pakistanis can (and should) play a very important role for Pakistan. There is a difference between people who go abroad for education and/or job, and those who leave the country suffering from some kind of inferiority complex. I would like to see more and more Pakistanis excelling in leading universities and organizations all over the world. This is bound to bring plenty of good stuff back home: capital, fresh perspectives, new skill sets, better international image, and what not. Yes, it will be determined by our readiness to work for it, but that readiness wouldn’t be there if we start doubting the viability of Pakistan. Thanks.

Carpadium:

Sir, I am sorry for inadvertently hurting your feelings through the use of the word sensitivities without qualifying it with an explanation why it has been used. The word has been used in the specific context of society and its evolutionary context. Our friend, kakka, specifically said that he didn’t care much for the collective and societal ... he is more involved in paying his personal debts (whatever that means). .., and from where did you derive the notion of being `not desirous of prosperity`???? I think my friend, kakka, is very much interested in prosperity albeit at the personal level ... hence the reference probably to his personal debts as more important than the collective.

Farrukh M Khan

Previlaged Truth

ahmedbilal,

What I pointed out about you quoting the words of your brother is an entrenched notion in pakistan, of previlages, secret access to truth. What you are essentially claiming is that you are previlaged, you have a brother in WB, and as such you have access to truth which no one else in the world has got. It is the same idea that seeps out in romairs posts, and also that of YLH, tahmed and others.
It is this exclusivity to private truths that has prompted mushy to take over, it is the same that gives powers to the honour killers. There is no concept of a socially constructed concensus truth, it is always previlaged to a few, consult the book, ask the mullah, oir better still, look inside you.

If you have any inkling of the what I posted above, never again mention your brother, quote the numbers.

No, ahmadbilal, it will neither be the Indians nor us Pakistanis who will decide whether Pakistan is a viable state or not ... Nor will our wanting for it to be so will decide it; the fate of Pakistani societal/economic/cultural/institutional edifice will be determined by our readiness to pour blood and sweat into its foundations. Getting immigration visas to the Western world wont do it; it will be the Pakistanis who live in Pakistan by choice and for love of the people and motherland who will do it.
It will be the merciless process of history that will give us the certificate of being a failed or viable state. And going by our history so far, we don`t have much of a claim for viability.

Farrukh M Khan

I think it is time for us to rise above ourselves and for once look beyond our ``personal debts`` and work towards a future that all of us can be proud off...

I agree with the poor fellow, if I may say it on ` 62-kakka`s` behalf…difference of opinion should not be regarded as an excuse for you `66frk` to delete his name from the list of people not `sensitive among us` or not desirous of prosperity. Not agreeing to what you think or believe does not make any of us less `sensitive`. Refrain from implying as you so vehemently have advocated in your response to others on this forum. However, your zeal for collective prosperity is admirable. I am sure your contribution will keep the ball rolling…

Please people, don’t turn this forum into an India Pakistan war zone. Don’t we have enough of this hate venting elsewhere? I thought Chowk was meant to bring people from both sides together for a meaningful discussion and dialogue. No dialogue can take place if people remain entrenched in their basic ideas/prejudices and use their intellects only to garnish the recipe/dish that they got handed over to them unconsciously from their environments and experience of previous generations. No wonder people are calling Chowk a hate site.

Farrukh M Khan

#59 by jay on May 6, 2004 2:16am PT

I was giving reference of my brother in context of the World Bank loan. And I certainly have more reasons to give more authenticity to what I would hear from him coming out of a meeting regarding that loan, instead of a rumor floating in some random newspaper found through Google search. Anyway, should I understand from your post that picking on irrelevant stuff just for the sake of criticizing is the best example of Indian mindset?

tahmed dude....

So you started calling people jahil eh ?

On fertility rates, projections are made based on surveys - but, they are then confirmed
by a national census.
Jay does ask a valid question - when was the last national census in Pak carried out ?
if it was not - can you tell us why it was not done so ?

So, instead of evading the issue and calling people names - why dont you answer his
question. If you dont know, then say so and try to find out more about it.

#56 by AlephNull

1. “If the Pakistani ruling establishment has not been more successful at colonization, it is not for want of trying.”
2. “Is there any reason to believe that the Pakistani establishment actually wants the country to make progress”
3. “East Pakistan was colonized for 24 years”

Good Catch!
Number 3 first. Colonization of E. Pakistan would IMO, classify as exploitation of resources strictly keeping Pakistan’s junta in mind. E. Pak was not exactly colonized by Pakistan. It was part of the parcel, which was thrown at Pakistan. There are always going to be some provinces in any given country whose resources would be distributed to the other less endowed provinces. Since Pakistan had not from the very outset, showed the ability to create a system of sharing the resources, E. Pak appeared as a colonized area.
The core period of this exploitation was 1955 to 1965. That is when the main crop of E. Pakistan became important factor in keeping the economy going. After 1965 the cost to maintain E. Pakistan economically or politically became too much for the center. Around that time Center felt the need to rid of East Pak.
If you look at it carefully, the 1971 was designed to get rid of East Pak. If the Army wanted to keep it, there were methods available to prolong the whole saga. Though eventually east Pak would have gotten away anyway. Afghanistan is actually tied with 1 and 2 above.

The reason Afghanistan was never colonized before in the modern history is obvious. It had nothing to do with the bravery or treachery of the afghan. It had more to with the benefits of the colonization.

1 and 2. This leads to the core question: whether Pakistani rulers in the last fifty odd years were ever intellectually, politically or philosophically aware of what they were doing? I think you are giving them too much credit. The intellectual make up of the Pak society is some thing that I would like to write about for Chowk later. If they don’t publish it, I will post that somewhere. But the point to ponder is; whether there were any efforts in encouraging the intellectual dialog in Pakistan? From all counts there were none. In the absence of any such endeavor, besides the ordinary citizen, the rulers themselves suffered too. While the population suffered, the leadership itself becomes enamored in petty adventures and often a commentator looking in from the outside ends up believing that all those juvenile actions were linked and there was some conscious effort to get some results.


PS. I will read your post again this evening. I may have missed something but right now it would be hard to concentrate on that.

Kakka:

Sir, instead of jumping to hasty conclusions, if you had read carefully, my appeal was for `` Only the sensitive among us, who feel emotive repugnance towards our existing cultural pothole ... [as] a debt we owe to our future generations and the price that we have to pay for having deeper sensitivities and better understanding``. Those who want to pay their personal debts while wallowing in the misery of where we stand today, will never become a part of this process. They will ridicule the building of Noah`s Ark until the moment history opens the floodgates of destruction upon them. Like the two main characters of Satyajit Ray`s film `Shatranj ke khiladi` who looked for a secluded spot to continue with their unfinished game of chess while Lucknow was being overrun by the British army.

I salute you for the `sacrifices` that you have made `in the name of duty`

Cheers to you as well!

#61 by jay on May 6, 2004 8:06am PT

Your wishful thinking reflects nothing more than a general Indian attitude of denial regarding Pakistan`s existence. It is for us Pakistanis (not you) to determine whether we want Pakistan to be a viable state or not. We have made some correct and timely collective decisions in the past (rejection of Indian nationalism being one of them). And I would let time validate our viability too. Thanks.

Economy of pakistan,

Pakistan is a non viable state, the countries strategic assets, the bomb was sold by one man, a bunch of jihadis occupied pak border with india and the pak army did not know anything about it, pak army is negotiating with a bunch of tribes men to capture and hand over alquida...well you call this a nation, and a govt in charge to keep national accounts, they have more pressing things to do.

Any one who talks about pak economy, the national accounts should look at the following absurdities. There is something called curb rates in pakistan, in which the central bank sends in officials with wads of pak currency and buys up the $ from the road sides illegal dealers.
Then there is the burra marlets where smuggled items are sold. They do not try to curb this, the tax man go their and try to get some tax money based the number of shutters the shop has.
Thses are the economic principle practiced by pak govt, and you want them to have some accounting. Thses are simply some numbers cooked up to satisfy the WB and IMF. This is like the tahmeds talking about human rights in kashjmir, just want to be with the crowd, just wants to look fashionable.
Pakistan is no more a failed state, it is simply non viable. Now it exists because of alquida, the day osmam is gone, pakistan will vanish into the sea.

... ` We have to pay a collective debt of accountability for the past three hundred years`..kindly spare me from that...i have made enough sacrifices to the sense of duty...please speak for yourself alone.
cheers my friend!

... ` We have to pay a collective debt of accountability for the past three hundred years`..kindly spare me from that...i have made enough sacrifices to the sense of duty...please speak for yourself alone.
cheers my friend!

jay #59 You write ``Now let take the fertlity decline. The relevant question is when was the last census carried out in pakistan. Is there any birth and death registers, and how reliable is it. ``

If you knew anything about demography, which obviously you dont, you would know that in measuring things like fertility declines, census are of limited use (being few and far between) and birth/death registers in third world countries are virtually useless. What demographers go by are things special surveys. And it is generally recognized that the fertility decline in Pakistan is now well underway (having started sometime in the mind 1990`s).

But ignorance never stopped you from passing your opinons. Why am I wasting time even responding to your post? Because fmk`s refusal to even consider anything specific that contradicts his foregone conclusions, you at least mentioned something specific I had said. This puts you in a cut above the author of this article. And that is not saying much. Given that you never allowed your ignorance to come in the way of your ideology. And given that your obsession with demonizing Pakistan has driven you mad.

pakistani discourse,

Post by bilal 52 and an earlier post by tahmed are the best of examples of pakistani mind set. Both claim that they ahve better understanding of the pak situation, for bilal, it is told by his brother who works for WB, and for tahmed, it is from one in high pak circles. We all have heard the same, one hell of a lot from romair, I talked to the ISI, i knew general blah blah.
This is the pak mind, the truth comes from the relatives, and the one whom they talked. There is no concept of objective reality, trying to sythesise from the very nature of the system.
Now let take the fertlity decline. The relevant question is when was the last census carried out in pakistan. Is there any birth and death registers, and how reliable is it.

Let us have a check. I checked the lahore death register, Sami Sarwar is not dead. Now I know another reason why honour killing is leagal in pakistan.

It is really a tragedy that the educated, the western educated like ahmedbila and tahmed will resort to the most unscientific approach, my brother tols me and it should be true. One can forgive romair, the marching with heavy boots are proven to shake the brains to a pulp.
How can one explain tahmed, well it is education, s for stupidity, to deviate from my usual pharase.

Alephnul 56 - ````Is there any reason to believe that the Pakistani establishment actually wants the country to make progress (in the sense of universal education, a mature and aware public, etc)? Might they be shooting for a different model instead? ````

You got a point.

Would I be excused an India comparative here, specifically towards parts of South and West India? We have a very strong and socially aware vernacular media in these parts of India, available to all, and it has nothing to do with advertisement revenue either. I think that is very important for ``mind bending``.

Now in Pakistan, I think, the media (English and vernacular) are married to the establishment, minor noises here and there aside. That is where it starts from.

Good luck . . .

HP:

Briliant, innovative thinking .... Karl Marx and Jamaat-e-Islami?????!!!! ... certainly hadnt heard this one before not accused of it. Take it easy, kid!

Farrukh M Khan

tahamad32:

The quality of language employed by a person may or may not depict objective reality but it certainly betrays a lot about the personal culture of the person speaking. So by calling me a JAHIL, sir, you have only exposed yourself for what you are. You won`t get a response from me from now onwards ...

Good day to you,

Farrukh M Khan

Ahmadbilal:

Yes we should be happy if something positive happens. But we must always, as responsible individuals and thinkers, be able to look beneath the apparent and analyse what is true. And as for me suggesting something to the government, I have never been in that big a position to SUGGEST any thing to them. Neither have I been a foreign educated consultant to whom they listen only during the period before the loan is approved ... once the money comes in the govt coffers, even their suggestion are made a part of the infinitely deep filing dump we call Islamabad.

For a good analysis of what is going on in Pakistan`s economy I would suggest two links:
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2004-daily/25-04-2004/oped/o6.htm
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2004-daily/02-05-2004/oped/o4.htm

Farrukh M Khan

HP #53

{{It took western civilization years of efforts and unabashed exploitation and colonization of poor little countries and people to get to where they are now.}}

OK

{{Pakistan does not have all those benefits. It has not colonized any country, it is not yet involved in any exploitation of other countries}}

Not true, IMO. East Pakistan was colonized for 24 years. More recently Afghanistan was taken over by proxy in the effort to colonize Central Asia, grab its mineral resources, and allow Pakistan’s elite to get rich without doing much work, just like the Saudi ruling family. Further, the way Baluchistan has been treated can best be described as internal colonization. Similar remarks can probably be made for Northern Areas and POK. Parasitism happens in many ways, internal as well as external. If the Pakistani ruling establishment has not been more successful at colonization, it is not for want of trying.

{{and it will mostly have to rely on its own resources to make some progress.}}

Resources are of two major kinds – natural resources, and human resources. Either or both may be developed or exploited, to different degrees, depending on your economic or civilizational model.

{{When you make progress education becomes universal, people mature and all the things happen that author envisions them to happen.}}

Is there any reason to believe that the Pakistani establishment actually wants the country to make progress (in the sense of universal education, a mature and aware public, etc)? Might they be shooting for a different model instead?

“Leaders and leadership (quality and institution, both) do not develop in a vacuum…..having deeper sensitivities and better understanding.”

For the last three or four days, I was trying to figure out what the author has in mind. There are some strong words used in the article and apperently the author is totally disgusted with Pakistan and the People of Pakistan.

I read the last para as quoted above several times and initially I thought the writer was just breathing his own exhaust. I would have really appreciated it, if the author had explained: what timeframe he had in mind for things to happen as he would like them to happen. Like Cultural renaissance does not happen overnight. How long it would take to fill the Vacuum to develop the leadership?

I always thought societies go thru the moral and social decay and some recover from that and others don’t. Human history is full of stories of nations that just fell and could not recover. It took western civilization years of efforts and unabashed exploitation and colonization of poor little countries and people to get to where they are now. Pakistan does not have all those benefits. It has not colonized any country, it is not yet involved in any exploitation of other countries and it will mostly have to rely on its own resources to make some progress. When you make progress education becomes universal, people mature and all the things happen that author envisions them to happen. But it seems to me that the author wants every thing to happen before that poor country called Pakistan could even think about any economic progress. I think this is pontification and I am kind of thinking if we sprinkle this article with word “Islam” a wee bit then it will show writer’s true bent. Like “Islamic cultural renaissance” etc.

I also gather that Author apparently is not in some religious pontification mode but his sermon certainly smells like rightwing battle cry.

If the author is not in this religious mode than what is the deal with “collective debt of accountability for the past three hundred years of our history”. What is our collective debt? Pakistan does not have a collective debt. May be Muslims have a collective debt. And that leads me to believe one more time that the author is actually pontificating about the “Islamic cultural renaissance” and his dream of Pakistan is actually some Islamic cultural renaissance in the mold of Saudi Arabia and other champions of Orthodoxy. That terrorist OBL is probably the ideal he has in mind when he calls for Cultural renaissance.

The use of phrases like” existing rotten culture” or “repugnance towards our existing cultural pothole” or ``Acting as a regional goon of Western powers`` sound so much like Jamat Islami propaganda line that I am afraid; it actually is JI propaganda being fed to us again w/o using the word Islam repeatedly.

Please explain to us what is wrong with our culture that is not wrong with other least develop countries’ cultures. We have problems in our society but which society does not have problems? Why do we have to be ‘PURE’ before we can make progress?

In what economic law it is written that a country has to be pure to make any progress. Sure nobody wants Status quo but there is no status quo in economy. It moves forward or backward. Status quo happens in positions but in politics that is only a perception; things always move. We don’t have status quo in Pakistani society, it is evolving then why this author talking about ``emotive repugnance ``?

#35 by fmk on May 4, 2004 2:07pm PT

Farrukh, I am not talking about the government propaganda. My source of information includes someone who (besides being my brother) is working closely with the British and Pakistani governments as well as the World Bank. He was in the US last month to have meetings with the World Bank for the loan I was referring to. That`s when we last talked about it and we did discuss the negative aspects too, like the quality of life factor you mentioned and unemployment etc. We are in a difficult position, and no one is denying that. But if something positive (however insignificant it might be) is happening, shouldn`t we be looking forward to build on it further? You mentioned that you have been working closely with the government. It would be interesting if you could write something about where the government is going wrong in terms of the economic policy, and what have you suggested to them to change that. Thanks.

Rozaiba, just for interest,
Even a small industry is hounded by over 22 inspectors from the central, provincial and the district government. They all extort money. A community water treatment plant like they are installing in Rawalpindi is awarded for about Rs.330,000/ including the cost of construction of a room. Rs.150,000/ go for the taxes and commissions. Rs100,000/ is the cost of masonary. The contracter makes a profit of 30,000/ What the user gets is junk, unsafe for human consumption.
Pakistan institute for standards and quality controls is yet another democles sword hanging over the industry. What they do is yet another tale.
Cheerios

fmk #49 i have listed some very specific aspects of the pakistan economy. Those dont seem to interest you since you have not discussed even one of them. Instead you condemn me for daring to point to examples that contradict what you say.

Congratulations. You have just demonstrated the mindset of a jahil.

Ijaz Gul:

Institutions are the only way out.

As for ENTREPRENEURS- they are indeed the real heartbeat of Pakistan. It is because of their spirit that the country has managed to progress despite all the hurdles created by the ruling elite with its destructive policies.

Traveling across the GT road, one can see this spirit brimming with energy, searching and creating alternative ways to succeed in life.

Nevertheless, any aspiring business person – particularly those of small unit industrial set-ups aspire to see STANDARDS placed and they all voice the hindrance caused by the lack of procedural standards. They don’t want to have to bribe at every level – from electric and utility companies to the tax man to get things done.

Once again, this shows Farrukh’s assessment that the government has not been able to create policies that encourage the immense informal sector to join the State in developing a business environment that encourages growth rather than encouraging the criminal elements to want use the growth as an invitation to extort more out of them. Of course no one wants to pay taxes – the massive fraud schemes associated with currency exchangers reveal how all types of businessmen indulge in tax evasion and avoidance. However such activity is again more a product of lack of channels of participation which can define business friendly policies than anything else.

If offered channels and institutions through which those of the informal sector can participate in, it could open the way for a challenger to emerge to break down the hold of the current elite.

Anyway, the studies and views of political economy are attention-grabbing. They may offer the best means for change. Look forward to reading and contributing to more from you and Farrukh.

Cheers!

tahmad32:

Sir, if you want to live in a fools’ paradise you are more than welcome to do that. But kindly do not insult my intelligence by throwing this kindergarten stuff at me. If being realistic about where we stand today sounds cynical to you, I feel sorry for you. ... Google I thought was a search engine according to my latest knowledge, i.e., rakes up what people upload on the WWW ... since when did it become a source of authentic data, per say? I have very closely seen how these foreign consultants (data chefs to be more close to your description) work and the secondary data that they rely on. So please do not throw at me what Professor Google tells you ... have the heart and courage to THINK about what you are saying.

Farrukh M Khan

Excellent analysis Farrukh

fmk #41 just saying figures are fudged and cooked is not enough. i pointed to some specific things that are generally accepted and easily verified from multiple sources using google.

To take one example: on the fertility rate drop, i was told of this recently by a man whose job it is to keep track of these things. and he is no fool, let me assure you, and knows as much about cooked figures as anyone and could probably teach all the section officers in pakistan new ways of cooking figures, including chinese, mexican, african, continental, depending on taste. But the fact remains, that you can cook a chicken any way you like - chicken jalfraezi or sweet and sour chicken - no one will confuse the final result with being beef steak.

If you still remain hopelessly cynical, then dont take my word for it. Go to google and search on something like ``Pakistan fertility`` and you will see lots of different sources corraborating this. Of course some section officer in islamabad may have fixed google too so all the articles are also cooked. :-)

The same goes for other things I pointed to. I dont make stuff up my friend.

And wait...while i am on the subject, did i mention tax reforms? looks like the ITO (income tax officer) is going to have trouble making his tenth house: self-assessments are being introduced. no longer does the tax filler have to go to the ITO to negotiate his tax return. as i understand, the first year tax returns (income plus tax) have gone up a significant amount (30 percent as I recall, although i could be wrong).

So, as said. All is not gloom and doom. Nor of course do I wish to sound that pakistan is on its way to becoming an Asian tiger. However, pakistan is no dead kitten either.

the Goofs Headquarter (GHQ) with a close collaboration of the feudals, new capitalists and civilian bureaucracy have been pretty successful in alienating a man on the street from the business of the state. And they have done a great job.

to reverse this effect, yet another effort is required with double strength - which, fankly, seems unlikely coming in near future.

my personal belief is that 1) ``genuine`` literacy, 2) people`s understanding and practice of the separation of religion from state and 3) organized pressure groups. all of these, particularly the last one, are very difficult to come by and personally, i dont see much of a silver lining to what the situation in 2004 is.

finally, Farrukh Khan, you are good, very good!

Rozaiba:

These points were a part of my earlier article at chowk called ``Faliure of Institutions in Pakistan?`` and were also mentioned in paraphrase as the last 4 lines of paragraph 6 of the article currently under discussion. But I think you are right I should have noted them down in as much distinction as I did here. Thanks for the support. I am currently working on a cultural analysis of Pakistan which will elaborate more upon what I presented in these two articles. I hope they will be of some use to concerned people like you.

Farrukh M Khan

tahmad32:

You mean I have got my statistics wrong, don’t you? Because I don’t find a theoretical or conceptual rebuttal in your response. Well if this is the case, to begin with I question the source of the figures being flaunted by the various ministries ... I know very well how they are “fudged and cooked” in air-conditioned offices, far from the reality of actual life on the streets.

Farrukh M Khan

Farrukh, i couldnt agree with you more. I have had the privalege to go through your earlier article as well..and going through this one i feel that your attempts at analysing things is quite impersonal...which is actually the way that it ought be. Let us all have the courage of accepting our follies and then try to move on.....Looking forward to what you have in your kitty, waiting to be fired away!!!

Rozaiba, It encourages me when you endorse my views on Civil Society and instrumentalism. In fact, this is the only way out.

There are many parallels between the Americain success story and South Asia. Both cultures got uprooted from their original moorings. South Asia was a colony while USA got colonalised.The diffence is that in USA, there was an entire transplantation of culture.In South Asia, as per Farruk`s thesis, the original elites were uprooted by the Nouvelle Indian civil service elites and the nouvelle fuedals.However, in both cases, political economy played its part in evolving a system.

This evolution in USA succeeded after the Civil War and particularly the crash of 30s.It was after this that the enterprising, black marketing and crime ridden civil society of USA galvanised under the state patronage into a highly disciplined, fiercely competetive, domestic, and growth oriented economy.

It is indeed revealing that during the long years of nuclear related sanctions, Pakistan`s domestic economy held togather and despite low collection of taxes, there was a stable GDP. This was mainly due to the entreprenuership of the low middle class also called the unregulated sector. In fact as per an estimate the state tax machinary only absorbs a small percentage of the actual GDP. If that be the case then we are talking of an unregulated sector that accounts for over 6 trillion rupees. It is also this sector that pays the maximum Zakat, runs charities, provide maximum employment and lives in the Ghalli Mohhallas of Pakistan.They are small size manafactureres, traders, vendors, transporters and labourers. Why I write all this is to emphasise that the unregulated sector in Pakistan is highly competetive and enterprising, and that what ever they produce is consumed domestically and even smuggled. It is also this class that forms the backbone of our system and like the USA Model, play a role in development of the civil society. These small time tax evaders, thugs as some may call them and enterprising people are in the same genre as the USA model and must be allowed to develope.

WTO will be the make or break for this sector. Already cheap goods from China have diversified them. They will have to raise the standards of their goods or else loose out.

Let me start by saying that this has really been one of the most informative discussions on chowk for me. There is very little being regurgitated etc.

Farrukh you`d stated:

``What I am trying to get at is that the primary source of wealth generation for the ruling class of Pakistan has not been the workers but ...
• Using government’s influence to warp the competition in the entrepreneurial playing field.
• Successive governments’ non-reliance on the local production as the primary source of its revenues and prosperity / welfare of the people. They have been relying overwhelmingly on external sources such as foreign aid, expatriates’ remittances and stipend-like aid packages during the period of Cold War alliance with USA and its allies.
• Artificial inflation of the volume of wealth in the country due to the existence of a parallel Black Economy based on smuggling, corruption, and drug money. ``

THESE are points you should have noted in your article as they are highly relevant. Along the lines of what Ijaz Gul has stated, there is a lack of an institutional framework to get people to participate in society in a collective sense. Where policies are created to collectively help raise productivity and in which people at large take part in. In the absence of this participatory framework- economic as well as political, it is natural to expect entrepreneurs to find refuge in the informal sector where tax evasion and avoidance has become ‘institutionalized’ by the black market for ‘legal businesses’ and for those who want nothing to do with the system at all, smuggling provides great opportunities.

Finally, you aptly pointed out the correlation between the Pakistan economy and the relationship with USA. Here, correlation is causation. Being on good terms with the United States causes the macro-statistics to look upbeat and brings great joy to fauji lovers.

Here was a report given front page coverage by Daily Times but not anyone else. It’s about the possibility of America providing full market access to Pakistani products.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_24-4-2004_pg1_1

If true, this would indeed justify fauji-lovers appeal that the faujiz are all right. However I seriously doubt USA would ever allow this. For otherwise, correlation may no longer be the effective causation that it is. But fauji-lovers don’t like to think along these lines. They just dream about becoming the next Malaysia, Singapore and Korea without having ANY of the benefits, mechanisms and tools America provided them. Fauji-Lovers are expecting miracles to come marching down from heaven…left, right, left, right… (whops, I’m regurgitating now. Let me stop!)

fmk: I dont think you are quite right in your economics. Pakistani reserves have gone up from a pathetic low of $600 million they had once dipped into in the 1990`s to over $9 billion today. However, it is a simplifcation to say it is due to new debt. The fact is that Pakistan`s debt has been restructured in recent years in favor of lower cost debt and so the debt burden has in fact gone down. The rechannelling of funds from hundis to commercial banks after 9/11 has also helped. The illegal outflow of funds has also stopped due to tighter international screening of funds. There are also structural changes taking place in the economy to make it more open to competition - the two major contracts for cell phone operations in Pakistan have both been awarded to foreign firms (one to a norwegian firm, the other to a arab consortium).
other positive things are happening. the long awaited drop in fertility rate (where pakistan for some reason lagged behind india and bangladesh which both had this drop earlier) is well underway in pakistan now - from a historic 6 kids per female to under 4 children today. and the economy is beginning to move as well (expected to grow 6% this years, albeit largely due to good crops).

this is not to say things are all OK. the biggest problem is that fdi has still not picked up (two large investments by foreign firms in Pakistan were quashed after 9/11, e.g.).

but it is not all gloom and doom, imho.

#20 by harimau on May 4, 2004 6:19am PT
....... Alas, there was no Viagra in those days. And even that has not been tested in eunuchs. ...


Haramiau - Now I know why you are so frustrated.

Ref fmk #30

[But my question was about the number of higher caste people owning or reaping the fruits of Indian riches in proportion to the lower castes. And pray do tell me if any of the examples you quote are from places other than the large metropolises and their vicinity? Is the Indian economic boom reaching places like Bihar? Please give examples from North India, as they are more close to us culturally. A south Indian Muslim is as alien to me culturally as a Hindu Tamil. People in the south have always been more progressive and enterprising than us in the North.]

Any information any Indian can provide is going to be based on personal knowledge. There is no survey -- commissioned by NASSCOM or the HRD Ministry or some NGO -- that is going to break down the IT/Biotech enterpreneurs by caste.

WIPRO - Azim Premji, Muslim. The IT services company is an off-shoot of inherited business in vegetable oils, soap, etc.

Infosys - Narayanamoorthy. Self-starter with a couple of friends. Reported to be Brahmin.

HCL - Shiv Nadar and five associates. Through Google search, I identified one of them as Ajay Chowdhry. Another, the Vice Chairman of HCL America I believe, is an Agarwal or some such common North Indian name.

Satyam - Ramalinga Raju. I would say he is probably not a brahmin. I would like somebody else to provide background info on him.

TCS - Tata Consultancy Services. Owned by the Tata industrial group, run by Parsis. (Current MD is Ramadorai, a South Indian, but then the Tatas always looked for the best person regardless of ethnicity.)

There you have the top 5 IT powerhouses. Of these, TCS is based in Bombay, HCL was founded in New Delhi, Azim Premji moved the IT hub to Bangalore. So the authentically South Indian companies are Infosys and Satyam.

Take the hundreds of companies like Zensar (RPG group), Nihilent (LC Singh, founder), DSQ Software (Dinesh Dalmia, founder), Patni, Tata Infotech Limited, etc., and you will find ownership is scattered among the various castes and across various regions in India.

Add to that the list of IT companies spun off from in-house IS departments to cash in on the boom like ICICI Infotech, Mahindra-BT, LTITL (Larsen & Toubro Info Tech Limited), etc., and you now get corporate ownership as opposed to some start-up by an individual enterpreneur.

It is impossible to get to know the ownership of literally hundreds of companies in Bangalore, Chennai, Hyderabad, Pune, New Delhi, Bombay and Calcutta employing 100-500 software engineers but you can be sure they draw heavily from their regions and from across the caste lines.

Then take the 1-30 man shops offering services through the web to the international community. They are below anybody`s radar screen.

And then there are those individuals who offer their services through E-lance or RentACoder or some such service. These are stealth warriors who don`t register on the radar at all no matter how hard you try.

Add to that a couple of thousand Indian enterpreneurs in the US running anywhere from 20-100 software engineers each. They don`t care what your caste is.

Have I seen Sikhs as programmers? You bet! Are there many of them? Not that I am aware of but there is actually a software park in Chandigarh and they may all be there!

Have I seen Malayalees in IT? Not as many, particularly when you consider their high education and enterpreneuship. But they seem attracted by the easy money in the Gulf countries and you don`t find many in IT.

UP and Bihari bhaiyyas? Sure. Bengali babus? Certainly. Ghatis and Gujaratis? You bet!

If you complain that an adivasi out of Orissa or Jharkhand does not have the opportunity to participate in the boom, I will have to agree. But that is not due to any special impediment placed in his path by the government. If they lack role models or the money, not much can be done.

By the way, last year 12,000 (that is no mistake, twelve thousand) seats were unfilled in Tamil Nadu`s engineering colleges. This year the numbers are likely to be around the same.

So there are plenty of educational opportunities.

You got to move your butt out Assam, Nagaland, Rajasthan or Orissa and find out where the educational opportunities are. I ran into a Sikkimese girl in one of the Southern Regional Engineering Colleges. She is an Army officer`s daughter so I suppose she has a wider view of India.

In India, equal opportunities are offered. Equal results are NOT guaranteed.

fmk

Seems like you are confused with several different issues here. You asked for examples of minority owned companies. And we listed some. Then you say these are in metros and vicinity. Of course they are - where else could they be? Nobody builds his companies in a village.

Lack of development in Bihar is because of severe lack of governance - which is abysmal - even in Indian standards. Caste, religion are secondary issues there. In fact the state has best records in communal harmony under Laloo and the so called backward castes are in full power there. If caste/religion were the issue - then bihar would have been the best performing state.

You are a good guy - but you are falling into this age-old ``brahmin-bania-conspiracy`` trap. Such rants are so out-of-date and so counter-productive. Brahmin-banias are NOT ``restricting`` anybody from the ``fruits``. ( full disclosure - I am NOT a brahmin/bania - I belong to a so called backward caste) There is no conspiracy here. Unless you get that out of your head - you can`t make any rational analysis.

India`s current problems do NOT spring from caste-communal equations - these problems do NOT originate from the alleged upper-caste ``exploitation``. It`s rooted on lack of development - singular lack of focus on economic growth and infrastructure development. The good news is voters have realized this. That`s why development is the main issue in this election. Caste-communal stuff has taken a back seat, as they should be.

Ahmadbilal;

I wish I could share your optimism ... Let me however assure you that I am not pessimistic either. The only thing which is preventing me from leaving this country is the hope that some day my people are going to wake up from their historical slumber and I want to be right there with them as an ordinary worker trying to help the cause in whatever way possible.

As for the figures you quote, I have worked very close to the government ... I know full well how these figures are created and how the present increase in the Current Account of balance of payments is being touted as the strengthening of Pakistan`s economy through higher levels of foreign exchange reserves in the country. Whereas in reality it is only an increase in public debt -- internal if not external.

Pakistan is refusing World Bank loans due to the moratoriums provided by its debtors on debt payments. Once this period passes and the Bill Collector Cometh, the situation will change drastically.

Farrukh M Khan

Farrukh # 30

You have made many friends with those words.

And please don`t call yourselves Kauravas. Aren`t we the numerically superior ones? ;-)

Ahmadbilal;

I wish I could share your optimism ... Let me however assure you that I am not pessimistic either. The only thing which is preventing me from leaving this country is the hope that some day my people are going to wake up from their historical slumber and I want to be right there with them as an ordinary worker trying to help the cause in whatever way possible.

As for the figures you quote, I have worked very close to the government ... I know full well how these figures are created and how the present increase in the Current Account of balance of payments is being touted as the strengthening of Pakistan`s economy through higher levels of foreign exchange reserves in the country. Whereas in reality it is only an increase in public debt -- internal if not external. This increase in the amount of cash in the economy has only led to greater speculation in real estate and the swelling of the Stock Market investment volume to $20 billion. The real measure of a country`s wealth, however, are not these figures but the good and services produced by it and poverty reduction leading to a rise in the living standards of people. In spite of the fact that the Ministry of finance claims that the per capita income has increased to $492, poverty by all estimates has increased substantially during the same period in which per capita income rose to $492.

Pakistan is refusing World Bank loans due to the moratoriums provided by its debtors on debt payments. Once this period passes and the Bill Collector Cometh, the situation will change drastically.

Farrukh M Khan

#24 by fmk on May 4, 2004 6:19am PT

As Mashahid Hussain had put it, USA is using Pakistan for a one-night stand, and we think this is nikah. :)

But there is some good news in economic side of the story. IMF is in process of leaving Pakistan, and their offices are being closed too. And a month back, government of Pakistan refused a loan offer from World Bank because it wasn`t on Pakistan`s terms. Right now, Pakistan is doing fairly well in terms of financial reserves (although that has yet to translate to economic condition of common people), and has paid back 13% of its debt already.

There is also some good work going on in the education sector. For example, in terms of higher education, Microsoft is getting very interested in Pakistan for collaboration with universities (something which has already started). We Pakistanis working at Microsoft, Pakistan Higher Education Commission and Microsoft University Relations Group are all very involved in it, and there is plenty of potential in this collaboration.

Your insight into the historical development which led to where we stand today was very thorough. And yes, Pakistan faces major problems today. But these problems should drive us to face these challenges, instead of making us pessimistic. People like us have brought change before, and we can certainly do that. Thanks.

#28 by mohar11 on May 4, 2004 9:37am PT
#26 by harimau on May 4, 2004 7:58am PT

mohar11 & harimau;

My friends, lets not get into this I love Pakistan, I hate India and the Bania slogan mongering ... I am certainly not one of those Pakistanis who think or feel like that. I am as much a son of the soil as any other Indian. My ancestors did not come from Central Asia or Iran; I come from a thoroughly Indian stock. If some one in my lineage changed his religion to Islam and that became the reason for my grandfather to be expelled from his village in Gurdaspur, in 1947, it does not mean that my roots are not in the same soil as yours. By the way my grandfather and his family was saved from the rioters by an Hindu friend of his named Jagdad, to whom he remained grateful throughout his life. And so am I. Following in the footsteps of my grandfather I still go to the canal that flows through the centre of Lahore because once the water that flowed in it came from my grandfather`s village.

Now coming to the points that you have made in your messages, as I said I will stand corrected as my information will be changed by some one who is more in touch with the happenings on the other side of the border.

But my question was about the number of higher caste people owning or reaping the fruits of Indian riches in proportion to the lower castes. And pray do tell me if any of the examples you quote are from places other than the large metropolises and their vicinity? Is the Indian economic boom reaching places like Bihar? Please give examples from North India, as they are more close to us culturally. A south Indian Muslim is as alien to me culturally as a Hindu Tamil. People in the south have always been more progressive and enterprising than us in the North.

By saying this I do not mean to somehow equate India`s problems with Pakistan`s. All I mean to say is that we both are a product of the same process up to 1947, generally speaking. India certainly has done much much better than what we have with our country. But to claim that you do not have any problems related to caste, creed or religion when it comes to accessing material wealth, would be utter nonsense. And to call us eunuchs won’t help much either. At present we might be the Kauravas and you the Pandavs, but we are cousins alright. ;-)

Farrukh M Khan

Ijaz-gul:

Thank you very much for the appreciative remarks about my article. However, let me confess that I cannot possibly offer any ready-made solutions to a problem that has been compounding for last several hundred years. As I wrote in my response to rozaiba, the point of my article was to know the path that has led us to where we are today, so that we can get our bearings right and then look for solutions. Otherwise we will only keep barking up the wrong tree and continue to miss the real issues and keep scratching the surface with reports written by Harvard or Yale educated poverty experts.

It was for this reason that in the conclusion to my article I made an appeal to the sensitive and better understanding among us to come together and pay a collective debt that we owe to our future generations.

Farrukh M Khan

Farrukh, I grade this an excellent article despite the fact that it has no suggestions.
Though Rozaiba did mention Rennaisance and Nazar seconded him, I would ask How?

As I said in some other post, Pakistan still lacks the approximate of a Nation and the biggest stumbling bloc to it is the absence of any role for the Civil Society. We need instrumentalism which can only come if we have a progressive civil society.Right now there is no place for it as it challenges the status quo.

To quote you
``if Pakistan “had invested all the official development assistance from 1960 to 1998 at a real rate of 6%, it would have a stock of assets equal to $239 billion in 1998, many times the current external debt”.
Yes as per one study 56% debt was spent of feasibility studies.

#23 by fmk
//...I am not an expert of Indian social studies ...//

Yeah - I can see that.

How many blacks and hispanics do you see US Hi-tec industry? Not many. That doesn`t mean there is any ``restriction`` in place to keep them out from the ``fruit``. The industries are merit-based, more or less. There is no conspiracy here. You don`t need another Martin Luther King to come along to help blacks get into hi-tec industry.

Likewise - in Indian context - you don`t see too many people from states of Orissa or Assam working in this high-flying Indian IT industry - majority are from southern states. Does that mean there is a conspiracy against these linguistic groups - oriyas and assamese? Of course not!

Like some chinese leader said - ``everybody in china is going to get rich - it`s just that some will get rich earlier than others``. So obviously some communities india are behind in the race - that`s inevitable in a complex society and country. It would require sustained and agressive economic growth over a period of time to pull everybody out of the hole.

Mahatma did a great job breaking down the social barrier - that was the most important thing .... and every indian is so grateful to the great guy. From now on - It doesn`t need a Mahatma - all it needs economic growth, roads, power, ports, banks, connectivity, better laws, much better governance, hard work ... and no bullsh!t.

++++

//....how many of the owners are from the Brahmin, Kshatriya and Kayest castes and how many are from the minority religions and scheduled castes.....//

Wipro - the biggest indian IT company is owned by a muslim. So is Cipla - a large pharma company. Reliance Industries owner is NOT a brahmin. Tata Industries are owned by parsis(I think). I don`t know if there are any company owned by a scheduled cast person. Does anybody here know if there is a company owned by a person from a ``lower`` caste? If not today - it will happen tomorrow.

Ref fmk #23

[All you need to do is to survey the big Indian companies that it boasts about and find out how many of the owners are from the Brahmin, Kshatriya and Kayest castes and how many are from the minority religions and scheduled castes.]

It has been said in the Press that Narayanamurthy who founded Infosys is a brahmin. So this probably is anecdotal evidence that supports your theory.

Shiv Nadar, co-founder of Hindustan Computers Limited (HCL), comes from the community of Nadars - considered one of the lowest castes in Tamil Nadu whose primary occupation in the past was agriculture (if one owned land) and tapping toddy from palmyra palm trees.

Shiv Nadar had the advantage of an engineering education and it has been reported that his father also was an engineer by profession.

It merely proves that if one is willing to get an education and then doesn`t look for a job with the Electricity Department or some such government entity (like his father did), the career choices are wide open regardless of caste.

[It took a MAHATAMA like Gandhi to break the age-old ruling alliance between the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas and to bring Kayests into the equation ...]

When you had said something about ``restricting the fruits of development to acceptable castes and religions``, I thought you had gone off the deep end and meant the usual brahmin-bania complex. Thanks for clarifying that it is a different deep end you have gone off to find the brahmin-kshatriya complex.

By the way, a Muslim I know is working as a software engineer in Chennai. With a degree in engineering and with about 7 years experience, he is probably making Rs. 30,000 a month. His father, a merchant, probably makes that much money in a single hour`s transaction involving a couple of truckloads of rice. Is the son enjoying the advantages of the the IT revolution in India (thus meeting with your approval) or is the father the smarter one for staying with the age-old tradition of being a trader?

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Rozaiba:

Thank you for assuming that I am more intelligent than you will ever be ... but I think you are not doing any worse.

Now then ... well I am not at all suggesting as Comrade Barber that the source of all production is labour ... other factors are also equally important. Labour theory of value was a flawed doctrine on which Marx built his case for revolution. And only because of his senstivities with the highly oppressed labour class of the 19th century, which was only natural come through because this factor is comprised of alive, flesh and blood of human beings.

What I am trying to get at is that the primary source of wealth generation for the ruling class of Pakistan has not been the workers but ...
• Using government’s influence to warp the competition in the entrepreneurial playing field.
• Successive governments’ non-reliance on the local production as the primary source of its revenues and prosperity / welfare of the people. They have been relying overwhelmingly on external sources such as foreign aid, expatriates’ remittances and stipend-like aid packages during the period of Cold War alliance with USA and its allies.
• Artificial inflation of the volume of wealth in the country due to the existence of a parallel Black Economy based on smuggling, corruption, and drug money.

The link will be established when these factors will become secondary at least ... if not done away with. This is my two pence worth of thoughts about this matter ...

Farrukh M Khan

Optimum:
India shines through only because we are dull ... in comparison to many others ... they have a chequered record too ... Now how have they turned out to be better than us is because of many reasons ... one of them being a cultural variation within the larger scenario of the whole of India ... North India, out of which the present day Pakistan was carved, did not have even the semblance of leadership culture that India had. We are the Badmaash Party of the subcontinent and our history bears witness to this ... Moreover, the Indians aligned themselves with the Russians rather than the Americans and were not used as a Cold War pawn as much as we were ... they maintained the prudent policies of building national industry than importing etc ... we went the other way because Americans gave hard cash not some technology transfer for which we had to work to install and produce ... As I said before, don’t judge India by its metropolises but keep in mind Lalu Parsad`s Bihar too ...

Farrukh M Khan

Mohar:

All you need to do is to survey the big Indian companies that it boasts about and find out how many of the owners are from the Brahmin, Kshatriya and Kayest castes and how many are from the minority religions and scheduled castes. It took a MAHATAMA like Gandhi to break the age-old ruling alliance between the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas and to bring Kayests into the equation ... India will need another MAHATAMA to break the existing nexus of power brokerage ... having said this I am not an expert of Indian social studies so I will stand corrected if there is an alternative study ...

Farrukh M Khan

AhmadBilal:

I am sorry i misunderstood you the first time ... but I will disagree that we are safe from the daisy cutter / foreign soldiers scenario ... at present we are HIGH on the opium doze given to us by IMF-WORLD BANK-America for pushing their policies once again ... keep in mind what happened once they dumped us in 1990 after the Cold War ended ... surely being a sensitive individual you cannot wish that this war will continue forever :)

No we will not continue to exist as we have been up to now ... just take a look at the world map that has changed so much in the last 15 years to know that we will not

Farrukh M Khan

Ref AhmadBilal #7

[Yes, if some enlightened and progressive leader of Pakistan movement....]

``Enlightened and progressive leader of Pakistan movement`` is an oxymoron.

[....had Nehru`s vision of having an intimate affair with Mountbatten`s wife......]

Alas, there was no Viagra in those days. And even that has not been tested in eunuchs.