Education and the Nazim

sattar -- you said the official rate was 8 per cent -- i said the OFFICIAL rate is now 45 per cent -- doesnt mean that i believe the govt -- just telling you that the `OFFICIAL` rate has changed -- whether you believe it or not is up to u

Omar,

I want to be careful in drawing the conclusion that Pak literacy rate changed from 8% to 45% in 15-20 years. Such a change would require nothing short of a miracle …

I am more inclined to conclude that disparate literacy rates (8% or 45%) reflect the disparate definitions of literacy ... and not an actual change in literacy rate over two decades. Of course, in addition to different definitions of literacy, quite possibly, the data itself is manipulated for various political reasons.

Jang 69 and Ballukhan 70 as well as sadna 72 . . . and in addition, we now make ``them`` eat meat and gravy in plastic buckets as high-priced baltee food. Revenge is not sweet, it is spicy.

By the way, in case any Pakistanis can wise me up to this - what do you do when overseas visitors ask for ``baltee food`` when they come to Pakistan? (This is a regular problem in India. There are no balteefood restaurants here.)

jang #69
When I first saw the large McGraw Hill building in NY city, I immediately felt a sense of ownership `merey paisey bhi lagey hain isko bananey mein` :). And all in paperbacks.

sattar, as you said yourself its a figure which is 15-20 years old -- it has changed since then

#69 by jang on May 10, 2004 4:06pm PT

I used to love all those paper backs imported as paper waste by the enterprising importers- they used to get the deal in dirt cheap rates and would sell it off to these guys who would sell them for 5 or 10 Rupees on the pavements (in 1980-s). They still do it now, but the prices are a little high around 40 to 80 Rs. But still- worth it. And the Indian re-printers were damn good- could just churn out the copies for all the paper backs for 50 Rs.
I can say without hesitation that lax enforcement of copyright and the intellectual property rights have been good for the Indian education industry- although it impoverished the foreign authors. I still consider the software piracy to be the main push factor for the Indian Software Industry- can you imagine a student who can barely pay 5000 for the Oracle course to work on the 9i at home if it were not for the pirated installer. All the best IT guys have sharpened their skills on the pirated versions of the Visual Studio. That`s a fact.
So there are good un-intended consequences of software piracy as well.

#66 by veeresh

i went to college in early 80`s and i can proudly say that study book cost were never a problem for even the poorest student. otherwise expensive engg. texts by american publishers used to be re-published cheaply by the dehli nai-sarak publishers and you could write to them adn they would print for your class (a small run of 25 books? no problem). these were under some kind of copywrite deal for poor countries, and were re-published by the likes of ``Galgotia Publisher``. so sometimes it was worth to make a trip to delhi chandani chowk on student-concession train, buy books for your classmates, eat parathe (or dinner at moti-mahal with a quarter of ``peter-scot``) all in the 20% discount from the nai-sarak guy.

As DM says, the binding does not last till you reach the last page for fiction paperbacks, but we did not observe this for text books, pehaps we did not open these often enough ;-)

I still have these and yellow as they are, they do hold-up.

Omar (#50):

The 8% literacy rate I heard in news in Pakistan … about 15-20 years ago. I cannot cite the source of this number … but it has remained in my memory nevertheless. About a year-or-so ago, I was reading an article in (… I think it was …) BusinessWeek … on some female dignitary appointed by the Bush administration for improving ties with Pakistan … purely PR stuff … perhaps with some impact on policy making etc. The news article quoted this lady as citing literacy rate of Pakistan as 8-or-so %.

I am not sure of the root-source of the 8% figure … but having heard it from two seemingly different sources … over a 15-year period … gave it credence in my view.

actually you didnt get it coolal -- i couldnt be bothered about this rating system here because its quite subjective and i think interactors here tend to take the cake when it comes to being subjective (which is fine, but not when it`s at the expense of being objective) -- actually coolal plz lose the self-righteous tone that you seem to have -- u think i came here on this board to get validation for what i write in print -- no, i came here to interact in my personal capacity -- besides, i am responding in kind to the attacks that many interactors launch on writers of pieces they disagree with -- instead of debating the content they launch their own motivated diatribe against the writer -- and oh my god my world will now come to an end now that you are ``readjusting`` the rating -- haha -- you`re just another example of how people try to judge someone by what they have written -- your remark ``i am frankly surprised that your capable of writing those pieces`` is opininiated and presumptuous, something that you accuse me of being -- i will not tell you again why i posted that -- mumbaikar in posts nos. 44 and 45 pasted articles which were about the ongoing controversy in pakistan regarding curriculum revision -- both posts, though on education, were thinly veiled attacks on pakistan by a probably paki-basher -- so i tried to paste an article which showed that india has its own problems too -- the story about some indian army officers faking attacks on imaginary targets merits reproduction on this website because it is full of paki-bashers - - and by the way if there were a similar story about the pakistani security forces, it would be posted by the likes of jay, pmishra2 and the other paki bashers immediately -- YOU, coolal ji, don`t get it do you --

and jay -- no i am not exactly a fan of the pakistan army myself -- all i am trying to point out is that india has lots of its own problems -- so before you tell pakistanis what problems their country has admit to a few of your own -- u would agree with that contention, i hope?

Dost Mittar 64 - sirji, agreed paperbacks in India part company with the binding, paper is not of the best quality, because obviously quality suffers when prices are low, both of content as well as product.

HOWEVER, the forgotten art of book binding goes strong, and if you were an Indian middle-class parent, you would still get the important ``soft cover/paperback`` school/college books ``bound`` after you bought them. Some book shops do this in bulk.

If you head for public libraries or lending libraries in non-swank parts of India, you will find, typically, paperbacks bound with the cover pasted on the cardboard outer.

Likewise, old magazines are arranged by date, and then bound by month/quarter/annual.

Good publishers in India will do small runs of 5000, if required, at almost the same costs as large runs. Think about that from the point of view of an economist, Sir. India is probably the only country left where this happens.

# 61

Yes, Omar I did. The point is did you? If you did, you would have realized that ALL of his articles were on ``Edication In Pakistan``. They were germane to the article being discussed here. Yes, they were harsh and probably posted with the intent of ``rubbing it in``, but all those articles were bang on target.

How is what you posted relevant to what is being discussed here? Are you able to comprehend being an ``editorial assistant`` and all? By your yardstick, would it be ok if I posted articles relating to ``Sectarian strife in Pakistan``,``Feudalism in Pakistan``, ``Honor Killings in Pakistan``, ``Genocide in Bangladesh in 1971``....etc? I could of course add something pithy in the beginning like you do if it will make it palatable. Trust me, if I wanted to I can come up with hundreds of such articles....Do you think that it will add to this discussion?

I have to tell you, after interacting with you here, I believe I gave you a lot more credit than you deserve because I liked some of the stuff you wrote in DAWN. After watching your total lack of restraint, your arrogance and your abysmal immaturity, I am frankly surprised that you are capable of writing those pieces. I am afraid that I have to ``readjust`` your rating downward...

Ah, yes, feel free to have the ``last word`` in this exchange. I am finished with it...

veeresh:
Why do India produced paperbacks don`t last until you reach the last page?

veeresh #62 Rawalpindi and Islamabad have lots of bookstores too. Islamabad has some really well stocked book stores, and also good second hand book stores. Rawalpindi tends to have a lot of weekend ``pavement shops`` in second hand books. The quality of printing in Pakistan has improved a lot recently, but is not very good.

How about printing? Do you know of some good quality printers in India? My wife needs to get some computer graphic generated designs printed out in the form of greetings cards. There are some good quality printers in Pakistan who are a lot cheaper than the US, but they are still a bit expensive I am told by my wife. Perhaps we could check with one or two Indian printers as well so she can compare.

One more thing: do you know who are the most popular publishers of quality published english books in India?

Sorry to introduce some personal questions concerning printers and publishers into what should be a high-level Indo-Pak round table conference concerning nazims and schoolteachers. :-)

tahmed32 # 59 . . . sirji, book and magazine prices in India are ultra cheap, especially vernacular ones which sell in large numbers but don`t show up on the baba-baby log English media horizons.

Yes, the reading (and writing letters to Editor . . .) habit is very highly evolved in East India, so I presume is Bangladesh. Likewise quizzing.

I missed seeing pavement newspaper/magazine stalls in Pakistan. Yes, there are a few at Lahore RS, but the magazines are very expensive. The equation is like this:-

India Today is about 15% of the price of Economist in India.

The Pakistani English magazines were about half the price of the Economist. But the Urudu ones were as expensive.

I can make a business plan that a NIL advertisement revenue based monthly of the pagesize of Reader`s Digest with 64 pages will not cost me more than 5-6 Pakistani rupees to produce. I would do it from India, if I were allowed to, and still make a profit.

errrr, cool al -- did u read mumbaiker`s posts

---

if u had, u would know what im talking about

omar # 49,

T%hanks for reproducing that story from hindustantimes. Dont you think that the indian action is better than sending in the jihadis at kargill, torturing and killing the first indian patrol that was ambushed and sying that pak army had no control.
Or would you vote for the other great army achievement, telling that one man Khan sold the weapons to n korea and all others may be including taliban.

veeresh #47 i am not sure how book prices in pakistan compare with those in india, and certainly if trade opens up with india we may find more books available at cheaper prices. the poor in pakistan are well aware of the benefits of education, and there are plenty of booklovers in pakistan.

but the most touching sight i ever saw was in bangladesh where i had gone for work and wanted to see the living conditions of the poorest people there. the first house i entered was a one room mud thing, with one flimsy bed and dirt floor. the only other thing was a pile of books a foot high which he was studying. clearly that family (like a lot of other poor families in bangladesh as well as in other countries in the subcontinent) had its priorities right.

sadna #51 those are certainly some valuable lessons you list from the indian experience, and will no doubt be something that we should be mindful of in pakistan. while still too early to tell, in going over the list, it seems that the conditions for success are being met most closely in the panjab. even in case of the other provinces, i dont think there is any going back to the DC system that has been abolished.

yogiraj #52 i think it is to be expected that in a country the size of india (or pakistan, for that matter) there will be many different ``school models`` in existence. in pakistan too, running of schools for profit is big business. but then there are also large numbers of charity-based schools. the infamous madrassahs represented another group, although they are now trying to change the curriculum from purely religious to religious plus normal education as well. The one thing common is the vast demand for schooling. I know a fellow who has opened over 60 girls schools in the poorest and most conservative areas of pakistan - and his model calls for the community to provide the school building (often just one room made mostly frm mud) and the teachers are paid from charity.

tahmed32:
``I dont see how being able to write one`s name equals literacy. someday i hope we have a higher standard for education``

I think that this definition was inherited from the British period. You were literate if you didn`t have to use a thumb impression instead of ``bukulum khud`` signature. I know that this was also the definition used by India in her earlier censuses. Don`t know what the current definition there is.

kaurasach #43 introducing propaganda in textbooks is certainly criminal. and pointless. since you cant fool all of the people all of the time.

sattar #46 I dont see how being able to write one`s name equals literacy. someday i hope we have a higher standard for education - like being able to observe facts for oneself and reach logical conclusions.

mein tou kehta hoon sarey politicians....beaurucrats ooper ooper key .. mardou .. aur naye laker bithadoiu... ppl who care for ths country...
jabhi iss mulk ka kuch hoga..
werna yahi haal raheyga...
inshaAllah bohat jald revolutuon aaega.. and thats the only way keyiss mulk ka kuch ho sakey
werna yeh mulk tou Allah chala raha hai .. aur keun yeh bhi Allah hi jaanta hai ...
but yaroun sub dua karo...

Omar, what is the point of your post #49? How is it relevant to what is being discussed?

If your intention is to get into a pi$$ing contest by posting links that show India in a bad light, then rest assured you will face a deluge of articles that show Pakistan in a worse light. We have seen this happen in Chowk time and again.

What are you going to achieve by hijacking this thread?

``#42 by tahmed32``

Thanks for the link.

There are two models thru, though integrated, things work in Maharashtra.

The provincial Govt. foots 100% of the bill of what we call as ``municipal`` or otherwise schools. They need to proscribe the programs/rules of the state Govt. For any additionals, the town or (municipality) need to foot the bill.

For example, all the state sponsored schools, provide 100% free education to girls. The boys have to pay (even though minimal) fee. Municipal school I went offered me (a boy) free education. Boys` fee bill was paid for by the near by ``town (?)`` thru property and other taxes and not by state govt.

Another ``scheme`` I benefitted was completely voluntary. No one used to ``sale`` books in my times. They were just passed on to next batch. I never used new books. They were always used by some one.

Majority of the capital exp. (Building etc) were footed thru charity in old times.

Education now, sadly, has become big money earning business (particulary higher education). The Lotas ``own`` educational institutions now a days. To their ``credit``, they are the ones who have paid for all the ``capital`` exp.

Yogiraj Patil

From the Indian experience, local governance systems donot work impeccably straight away, a lot of fine-tuning is required.

The key factors for success of local government appear to be :

1. The will and cooperation of the middle tier ie, the provincial/state govt. is a key factor, because a. the local government functions in the region of influence of state government, b. it is primarily subjects previously handled by the state govt. which are handed over to local governments.

2. The subjects handed over to local governments must be meaningful for devolution at local government level. Nonperforming local governments could become a block to progress esp. if the regional and national government give up accountability too hastily - there are trade-offs between accountability at a national, state and local level.

3. Adequate funding must be provided.

4. Mobilisation of local populace is important, otherwise it is business as usual, whether local government or local bureacrat.


Quoting from a Rajya Sabha debate, here is a sample of the complaints being made about the local government system in India :

A. `` We decentralised powers. But, decentralisation of corruption has taken place instead of decentralisation of powers. ``

B.``People who attend the first meeting of the Gram Sabha with a great enthusiasm, loose interest in the second or third meetings because of non-performance of any concrete work as the Panchayats had no powers and no money for development. Another problem is that members of Panchayat Samitis, Zila Parishads and Sarpanch strife against one another over development works.``

C. ``Before entrusting judicial powers with the Panchayats, they should be given training to make use of such powers so that people may get justice at the local level. ``

D. ``There are 29 subjects for Panchayats and 18 subjects for the Corporations, Municipalities which will be transferable by the State Governments. The State Governments have transferred so many subjects. The Union Government is having so many powers. Even the drinking water projects, rural development schemes, etc., are still vested with the Union Government. When the State Governments are transferring powers under the provisions of the Constitution which were enjoyed by the State Governments, why is the Union Government not transferring any power to the State Governments?

E. The three-tier institutional system is very difficult for a State like Kerala because it is a very small State. The intermediary Panchayat, that is, the block Panchayat is not essential. So, there is a unanimous opinion in our State that it may be made as an option. The Centrally sponsored schemes may be entrusted to the Panchayati-raj institutions.``

mumbaikar this is for you -- i hope you read it -- the paper which broke this story first was the Hindustan Times -- this particular story came in Dawn



Indian army admits faking Siachen encounters


By Jawed Naqvi

NEW DELHI, May 7: The Indian defence establishment was shaken to its roots on Friday over revelations by a newspaper that its officers on duty in the Siachen Glacier had routinely stage- managed encounters with imaginary Pakistani troops.

The idea was to paint the Indian officers with false glory that would fetch them coveted gallantry awards. The army promptly admitted to faking encounters with ``enemy personnel`` in Siachen last year and said administrative action has been ordered against a colonel and a major and disciplinary action taken against another major.

An army spokesman told reporters in New Delhi that a Court of Inquiry (COI) has named Major Surinder Singh for faking the killings and disciplinary action has been ordered against him.

Administrative action has been ordered against Colonel K. D. Singh and Major Rohit Lama for what the army described as ``administrative lapses``. The spokesman denied that Indian Army was claiming awards for ``imagined gallantry`` as reported in The Hindustan Times on Friday.

Analysts said the revelations had come at a crucial time in the Indian elections and could harm Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s bid for another term. The last leg of the four-phase polls is due on Monday.

Mr Vajpayee`s right-wing nationalist supporters are known to be partial to the army and object to public discussion of recent revelations of scandal-ridden financial deals involving the defence establishment.

Indian security forces have been blamed in the past for faking ``encounter deaths`` in Kashmir and elsewhere, partly due to the pressure of ``performing`` against anti-Indian militants.

Earlier, the Defence Ministry admitted in a press release on Friday that Major Singh had been blamed by the court for ``having faked the killings of enemy personnel``, but this version was changed later with an army spokesman confining himself to stating that this officer had been ``found culpable of having exaggerated and faking some events on the Glacier``.

The spokesman said the Commanding Officer and Major Lama were held ``guilty of committing acts of omission and commission of administrative nature and not operationally-related nor to Major Singh`s events.``

To questions whether the expose had sullied the image of the army, the spokesman sought to downplay the report. He said these the incidents were ``individual events`` and that stringent action would be taken against the guilty.

The Hindustan Times said that during hearings at the court of inquiry (COI), at which Major Singh also gave details about fake kills by units other than his own, the so-called ``enemy hits`` in Siachen came under severe scrutiny.

One issue was the distance from which the video recordings of the ``kills`` were made. It was pointed out that the videos had been tampered with, and that the ``enemy troops`` seen on tape had not been, contrary to standard practice, ``roped in``.

Questions were also raised on the effective ranges of precision weapons - some of the ``enemy kills`` appeared to have been made at 1,500 metres, by jawans not trained to use sniper rifles.

``Facing the COI, Major Singh`s commanding officer (CO) Col K. D. Singh vehemently denied all the charges of fake killings except those pertaining directly to Maj Singh,`` The Hindustan Times said.

Col Singh claimed that the only fake ``kills`` were those made by the Major himself on two occasions, and that the officer had been warned about them. He described Major Singh as having a diabolical frame of mind. He said that he (Col Singh) had instructed officers to give ``correct, timely and unexaggerated reports``. The veracity of videos of the ``kills`` was proved by the ``excitement and zeal`` in the background voices, he argued.

``It is amazing how the army failed to smell a rat about the abnormally high numbers of enemy `kills` in Siachen,`` The Times said, quoting sources. Nobody seems to have found it strange that except on a handful of occasions, there was no retaliatory fire from the ``enemy`` when the ``kill`` was made.

Said an Intelligence officer in Leh: ``In the last week of August when there was a genuine enemy kill, Pakistan kept firing at and shelling us for nearly 24 hours.`` 5/5 Gorkha Rifles has since moved on to elsewhere in Jammu and Kashmir. It has been replaced by a battalion of Jammu and Kashmir Rifles in the routine six-monthly turn-over of units on the Siachen Glacier.

Indian and Pakistani troops have been deployed since 1984 on the snowy wastes of the Siachen Glacier, north of the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir. It is one of the world`s most inhospitable places, where more soldiers die of cold and altitude sickness than through enemy action.

``Based on certain complaints that enemy killings have been fabricated by one unit in central glacier, a court of inquiry was ordered,`` the Defence Ministry said in a statement.

It said a major had been found guilty of ``having faked killings of some enemy personnel and destruction of enemy bunkers.`` The officer faces disciplinary action.

The Hindustan Times said that a third of the 50 killings of Pakistan soldiers attributed to Indian troops on the Siachen Glacier last year may turn out to be false. To make their claim realistic, Indian troops built an air defence bunker on their side of the glacier and destroyed it with rockets and mortars, claiming it was a Pakistani bunker, the newspaper said.

sattar dont know where you got your figures from -- the official literacy rate as claimed by the govt is 45 per cent , definitely unrealistically high, and the govt claims that it not anyone who can read and write his own name but someone who can writer, read and comprehend a short paragraph in his or her mother tongue -- i think it was changed to this in 1998

The books printed in India are five times cheaper than those printed in Pakistan. The high prices of books – along with lack of book-reading culture – put books beyond the reach of ordinary people. Despite the recent bonhomie, I don’t think that Pakistani government has allowed the imports of books/magazine from India. More expensive European and American publications with their off-putting prices are easily available though.

Perhaps the government should lift this ban (not to mention the ban on Indian TV channels and movies) for the good of its people.

tahmed32 - here is my favourite smoking versus reading theory - both support the paper industry no doubt but in addition the tobacco is good for you lobby kicks in too . . . so smoking is provided as a very cheap alternative to reading . . . and a smoke non-bidi costs 50 paise in Pakistan . . . I think there is a great case for expat Pakistanis to buy ``scrap/return/old edition/used`` books in bulk and just dump them in their home town/village . . . yes the pavement used book seller concept does very well and just needs encouragement, I used to love to watch bored cops on duty in Delhi and Bombay picking up books at random, and there was/is this thing called ``Rapidex English Speaking Course`` which was like a 300-400 page book in English + Hindi or English + vernacular . . . it works . . . so good luck . . . hope the Mullahs don`t destory the concept though . . .

I share Jay’s and Urstruly’s skepticism of this nazim business. It looks good on paper … but will eventually not yield much … is my guess. It`s only a matter of time when someone outsmarts this ``neat little scheme for local governance`` … and it will be business as usual.

Commenting on gujjubania’s post (#40) … as for Pakistan’s literacy rates … I have heard two very different numbers: one number pegs it around 27% … and the other … around 8%. The difference is due to varying definitions of literacy.

Pak government insists that anyone who can read one line of newspaper and sign his name, is literate. This yields the higher literacy rate of 27%. UNO standard however is more stringent … and results in literacy rate of about 8% (I still grapple with this low number ... ).

Comments?

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wajahat #32 agree that a lot of NGOs are fakes, and that is why it is important to donate money only if you know that it is being put to good use. Many Pakistani NGOs (like DIL) will link your donations to individual schools, and you can go and visit those schools. While dedication can go a long way, I dont think dedication alone works with public schools - the most dedicated administrators find themselves helpless when it turns out that the teachers who dont show up were appointed at the safarish of some provincial minister. We need a system that creates the right incentives. And it does appear that by making school administration accountable to locally elected officials there is a strong incentive created (see yogiraj`s post #36 where he relates his experience in India).

veeresh #34 those seem like great prices for books. I get an even better price in the US - free. from the library. :-) and now with google and the internet, great books are becoming like air and water - very valuable and totally free.
btw you can get good deals on the pavements in pakistani cities too. this is free enterprise at work, no cartels here. check it out next time you are in pakistan (which hopefully you will like to do).

dost mittar #35 the man behind the freeing up of PC import duties in Pakistan that you mention was the younger brother of a famous figure in Pakistan (Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar). He successfully argued for lifting these duties in the 1980`s, and it has been that way since as far as i know.

yogiraj #36 thanks for your personal account, and agree that the Nazims need to be empowered. On your question: delivery of education has been devolved from the provinces to the districts, while revenue collection remains a provincial matter. District governments have started collecting some revenue - tolls on local roads - but not much more. Property tax collection (and I would be glad to have this corrected) remains with the provincial governments, with about 80% given to districts and the rest retained for provincial oversight. Property tax rates are set by the provinces in consultation with the district. So, one can see some areas of tension between the two levels, and how provinces could tighten the purse strings on the district.

Here is a link to a district website http://www.gulshantownkarachi.gov.pk that I think is quite well designed (although still quite basic), and provides their budget online as well as other useful things for the citizen, like government forms. considering that citizens had to waste an entire day sometimes, in addition to begging and bribing clerks for these blank forms, it is nice to see them available for printing on the web.

kaurasach #37 I hope so too (that you have a pleasant visit to Pakistan). Try to go in good weather (october-march, and avoiding december/january if you are going to the colder parts).

ahmedzai #38 aakhir Jay sahib kay sath mehmaannawazi bhi lazmi hai. :-)

gujjubania #40 thanks for writing. india`s high literacy rate is indeed something to be admired.

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#38 by ahmadzai on May 7, 2004 11:43am PT

Please don`t break the good neighbor`s heart. At least you should appreciate the entertainment value in Jay`s comments. :) I don`t think he offends anyone here because no one takes him too seriously. I was amused when he tried to drag Nadeeem Farooq Paracha into a Pakistan-India debate and got a well-deserved treatment. Thanks.

Tauheed Saheb, himmat hay aap kee. Aap is jay the passive gay kee post parh laitay hain.

:-)

tahmed32,

Not joking. Used to walk four mile to and fro every day just to go to school every day.

Never thought it was fun when I walked. Hated it most of the times. Had fun once in a while. Now I know.

That was ``norm`` in a wadi (sub-dehat in Maharashtra) . No. Not walking, but going to school. One had to. I remember (now) my mom getting up 2 hours earlier so that I could carry some food. Whatever she could afford.

Just a question. Will the locals get authority to collect taxes so that they control and run the schools? Mine was. It was called a municipal school. All the people in the near by semi-town used to pay property taxes so that the Municipality (my spelling) could run the school. There was no fee.

Locals should be empowered with ``authority``. Exclusively in whatever area agreed. No interference. That would really work.

Hope that is what is happening in Pakistan. Empower your Nazims. Trust me. They are fathers and mothers. They will do simply best for their children, just like my mom did.

Yogiraj Patil

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veeresh:
One of the things that the Musharraf govt. has encouraged is the free import of used personal computers; consequently there is cheap and easy availability of PCs there. I know, I used an Internet Cafe in Islamabad, and all the PCs were old, some with East European keyboards.

tahmed32 #31 - amongst the many untold stories of resurgence in parts of India have been the easy availability of ``clone/grey`` assembled computers, cheap software/OS . . . and dumping/import by the container load of second hand books into the country as ``paper scrap`` for the pulp industry . . . actually a lot of the scrap paper was this vast variety of books of all sorts . . . as a result as recently as the mid-80s, good 1000/- rupee coffee table books were 50/- on the pavement each and Kurt Vonnegut Jr. was going at 3-5 rupees a paperback . . .

methinks there is great scope for something like this in Pakistan . . . but then, I didn`t know that all the bookshops in I`Bad were part of the same family/cartel.

Oh well.

veeresh #16: This bookreading habit is indeed something to be valued. As bilal points out, in Pakistan we too have a tradition of second hand bookshops (many of which open for business only on weekends, presumably this being a second source of income) and you will find booksellers on streetcorners. I myself spent many sunday mornings in rawalpindi going through the second hand bookshops.

#30

60% of these NGOs are positive organisations, yet 40% are basic fads run by celebrity or rich wives which tends to get abandoned, this obviously is a rash figure. The point therefore is that the structure has to come from within the govt, not handed over to some NGO. You put some dedicated and honest people incharge of the publiuc school system, allocate the right funds and resources and you will see a turn around in years. This is where the buck stops, this is where the priorities clash. Unfortunately this is also the case for most everything....

urstruly #18 it would have been nice to have a national debate, but it is still vastly more democratic than the system of DCs it replaced.

kaurasuch #19 your pakistani friends seem to be real losers. hope you meet better individuals from pakistan some day. better yet, visit pakistan someday and maybe you will be pleasantly surprised.

jang #27 i think it is generally accepted that local governments should be accountable to the population they serve. Not to their civil service superiors sitting in provincial or national capitals. And the evidence of this is present in one country after another all over the world. I hope you dont seriously challenge this assumption. There are of course important issues of checks and balance between different layers of government that remain to be fully resolved in Pakistan, imho. As for the name ``nazim``, it may sound strange to people in India not used to the term, but it simply means adminstrator in urdu and as such is readily understood by all. The term patwari that you suggest is already taken (by the man in charge of land titles), and munshi refers to an accountant as I understand. Never heard of sarpanch before - what does it mean?

Wajahat #20 It was interesting reading about what you heard from the Nazims in Sindh. The provincial government seem dead-set to create difficulties for the Nazims. This is the same as in NWFP, where the maulvis in the provincial government tried to put the Nazims in a subordinate role and thus kill the devolution of power to local governments. It is ironic that Nazims in NWFP then threatened resignations and general musharaff had to intervene in this conflict between two levels of elected officials! A similar confrontation seems to be emerging in Sind. The one and very significant bright spot appears to be the panjab where, as I understand, the two levels of government are cooperating because there are no serious party differences.

This struggle of the Nazims against provincial politicians is clearly a major battle that is now underway on the path to democracy. And no doubt the army is another major hurdle, as you say.

Under the circumstances, it is probably best to seek success of the local governments in a few key areas where they have a chance of contributing something positive. And I think what is really important at this stage is areas of service delivery - education, health, local transport infrastructure. Public school staff for example, have never felt accountable to the local people (often being appointed at the behest of some provincial politican in Lahore or someplace). Another option of course is to simply hand over public schools where there is no teaching being done to the NGOs (which has also been done in a few cases, I understand).

His Excellency #15 You raise some key issues on the subject.

You write ``1) When you say that local self-governments have improved public schools in their locality, are you referring to urban localities or rural localities? ``

I assume it is both rural and urban areas, and as I understand the evidence is still anecdotal (as I mention in the article). So I cant answer this question. Your next question I think helps provide an answer...

You write ``2) In many remote areas of NWFP, the local maulvis and maliks (landlords) do not want public schools because they will weaken their hold on the people. The Nazims also rely on the support of these maliks for getting elected. Has the local self-government system addressed this potential clash of interests? ``

Very good point. That is why I think (as I mention in my post to wajahat) why it is important to have the NGO schools (from initiatives like DIL and SOS) continue to operate: they can then take up the slack in districts where local governments also fail to deliver services (as is bound to happen in some cases).


``3) The provincial elections are held on party-basis, but local bodies elections are not. As a result, the party that wins a heavy mandate is unable to implement its agenda because the Nazims may resist their political agenda. Doesn`t the local government system encroach upon the mandate of the elected provincial government? ``

The mandates of the three levels of government are constitutionally defined and as such any concerns of encroachment would be a matter for the courts to decide in a mature democracy. In practice, I think the central government will play a key role in the years ahead in drawing the lines between the Nazims and the provincial politicians. And of course, even the constitutional arrangements are not written in stone. For example (to take a seemingly extreme case), one could even envisage Pakistan having only two levels of government: federal and local. (this model works in Thailand with its 30 or 40 ``provinces`` quite well, eg.).

``4) If we want to strengthen the Nazims, shouldn`t we make Police and district administration subservient to the Nazim (instead of Provincial government)? ``

An important question. There is clearly room for greater accountability of the police to the population they serve (or supposedly serve) in Pakistan. But, as I wrote to wajahat, we may have to satisfy ourselves for now by watching the local governments demonstrate success in a few key areas of service delivery. Then, hopefully, a few years down the road they would be in a strong position to demand more control over the police.

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jay #22 #23 #19 Thank you for your views.

When you write ``I am the Alexamder Flemming for pakistan, I am the incentor of BSP``, it is difficult to take your views seriously. You are entitled to the hatreds that lead you to make such statements, and by equating yourself with Fleming and by implying that your ``paki bashing`` amounts to anything you merely demonstrate the illusions you live in. Rest assured that the future of Pakistan and the Pakistani people is not dependent upon your goodwill. And for the record, I would also correct your assertion that I support honor killings. I do not.

tauheed sab

good to see discussion on this topic. however, are you serious that this is a panacea for developmental progress? please explain how so in theory and practice, with supporting arguements of how the entrenched political interests pariticipating.

and what the hell is a Nazim? is this some qoranic concept? or from the hadith? whats wrong with sarpanch, patwari, munshi or some other name people can indentify with? do people actually understand something by Nazim? Is this a commonly used term from Ottoman beurocracy? First caliphate?

kaurasuch # 24

Do you still see your imaginery freinds, or did you get some help???

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#17 by AhmadBilal o May 7, 2004 0.58am PT

Most of old book shops in Islamabad are run by the members of one big extended family. They started from the Round Market in Melody (latter moving to a shop next right under Melody Cinema) many years back and have since spread branches everywhere, Super, Jinnah Super, Ayub Market etc. They work as a cartel to monopolise the market and inflate the prices. Sometime you will find that an old book will be just 5-10 percent cheaper than a new one.

The story of new book shops in Islamabad is also not much different. Bookfair, Mr Book and many other shops are controlled by another family. Thus the price-fixing.

Every Sunday many stalls prop up in front of closed shops in ‘Pindi Saddar are also a good source of cheaper old books.

tauheed,

You have scoured the debri of a nation left behind by the mushy and his jihadic mob of kargill and found a gem, whcih is turning to ash in front of you in the sunlight of reality. Pakistans problem is not education, it is the type of education and all your attempts to find glimmer of hope in the shambles of a nation can only delay the eventual progress after a few thousand daisy cutters.

The foundation of a nation is the constitution, that sets out the institutions and the processes that take a nation forward. Mushy has trashed the consitution and he has put in place some arrangements to secure his future. Take it from me, no one man has changed a constitution for the good of its people. The nazim and all that crap you are talking about will deliver only more of the same crap, simply because there is no supporting institutional arrangements. Where will the nazim get the revenue, who will provide nation wide support and above all who will gie the curriculum that the schools are supposed to follow.
In the jihadic inferno fuelled by the madrassas, no ordinary school can survivr, only the elite ones in clifton hills will be shielded.

Pakistan has to rebuilt on a new foundation, and the only help that the pakistanis on chowk can provide is to demolish the xisting. Star with TNT and a few photos in govt buildinmgs.

HIS MASTERS VOICE

What breeds corruption



Whenever the question of corruption and bribery among government employees is posed to President Musharraf (most recently at an anti-corruption conference in Karachi), he answers that civil servants are low paid and are therefore forced to take bribes.

This unfortunately gives implicit moral sanction to a crime that is eating into our society like termite.

Moreover, when a government servant becomes addicted to taking bribes, there is no end to his greed. He doesn`t stop at the gratification of his basic needs but continues to amass wealth till the end. It is no wonder that now one of the richest sectors of our society is constituted by government employees who have stashed away millions locally and abroad.

KARAM ILAHI

Muzaffargarh

/////////////
tHE ABOVE IS FROM DAWN OF TODAY. Mushy a well educated man who rose to the top in military, the premier institution in pakistan, has explained away curruption as due to something for which there is no antidote. The solution is not better enforcement of the rules, education or changing of culture. Mushy has declared that it needs more money, implying that others in pakistan are better paid, the jobless and the farm labourers.

When tahmed maintained that honour killings are a tribal custom, when YLH argued that jihad is due to illitaracy, they were following their masters, mushy, attribute to something for which thare is no tangible remedy.

Pakistans problem is education, when mushy, tahmed and YLH the educated are providing diagnosis of the above type, I wish for the closure of all schools in pakistan, all educational facitilities, if the above are the findings of the educated.

legetimacy for pakibashing,

The last words of every pak apologist is that we are having problems, we are aware of it, and please leave us alone.
That would be a valid arguement for most countries, not for pakistan, when the jihadists are invading afghanistan, when hijackers are heros in pakistan, when pak immigrants are arretsde for terrorism in australia, when the chehnians leadres are collecting funds in pakistan.

Pakistan has to be solved by the world at lage, the people of pakistan have forefeited their rights to self government. At present it is run by the yanks from the 6 airbases, from the 700 milliuon dangling in front of them. Pkaistan has to be managed by all who seek a peaceful coexistance, by all those who reject jihad, and every one can contribute, some by bashing. Pakistan needs a cocktail of cures, daisy cutters, soft loans, technical support, targetted killings and broad spectrum pakibashing. BSP, broad spectrum pakibashing is similar to antbiotics, it can hit several germs at the same time. I am the Alexamder Flemming for pakistan, I am the incentor of BSP.

Tahmed

I appreciate your article which tries to put a positive spin on the Nazim and there abilities. I was in Pakistan recently and met up a few of my fathers freinds in various parts of Sindh who happen to be nazims, who spoke of absolute decrepit working conditions and the freeze on funds. I beleived in the idea of divesting power but increasingly the Nazims are starting to appear as plush showgirls sitting on the windows without much work or incentives. The other negative spin of is the hijacking of the Nazim structures by the political parties, the like of Jamiat and MQM have turned this into a sort of a battle ground specially dealing with the lucrative city of karachi. The govt and most of karachi MPs are MQM but the previous nazims were mostly from the Mullah Brigade as MQM did not participate in the Nazim Elections last time. This time they have and won the majority of the Nazim seats, will this reenforce and bring back the evil of MQM Bhatta eating gangs, remains to be seen. However this has certainly brought back the nightmare of early 90s as both MQM and Jamiat are killing key local Nazim candidates or their cronies. This is certainly worrying.

The problem is that the Nazim system is a good Musharreffic brain wave but one that has been left to rot and not effectively controlled. Today in the metropolitan cities you are only regarded something and have the political might if you wear a Brown Wardi, this is the antidote to the Nazim system, if you want the local political and civil setup to suceed power has to be given to those Nazims and administrators. Unfortunately more and more of our boys in Brown seem to giving up their defence related reponsibilities and taking up the challenge to and i quote `` sort out the civies``. Offcourse the fringe benefits of this sorting out are evident in large houses and flashy cars that seem to have the ID Army number plates driven around Karachi and other metropolitan cities.

The system is bound to fail and be abolished as soon as the despot loses power, for two simple reasons;

1. There was no national debate while instilling these institutions as Malik points out below.

2. The institution has failed to make connection with the people. The change of faces and the name of their designations have not changed the chracter of the institution that new system has replaced. It is still being used to implement the policies from top down whereas in democratic system the policies implemeted by these institutions are bottom up. People are still disenfranchised - how can it happen then?

#16 by veeresh on May 6, 2004 11:21pm PT

Speaking of used books, the old book shops in Jinnah Super Market, Islamabad are pretty nice. I once found a book (some volume of Talism-e-Hosh-Ruba) there which was published more than a century ago. It was written in poetic old Urdu. And some reader had even put comments in it (with pen and ink, which often faded towards the end of the comment) about what he would have liked the author to do with the plot. :) When reading it in long winter nights, I often wondered about the people who would have owned and read it before me. Every old book tells a story of its own.

Thank you Tauheed, for this view of Pakistan which I simply did not get.

On the subject of education, without belabouring the issue of expensive newspapers and magazines any further, what sort of growth do you see for libraries and bookshops in non-urban Pakistan? I mean, is there enough of a hunger for the written word to justify business models of small ``lending libraries`` from typical small 50-100 square foot shops?

Let me elaborate on this - I do not know how many Indians also know the value of a 1-day old newspaper in backward parts of India, how eagerly it is sought when a train rolls in. Or how many of the big publishers/bookshops/magazine stalls in India sprang from kabadi/second hand dealer outlets. I myself, as recently as the late `60s, and we were middle-class with enough reading material at home, recall walking from Defence Colony to Lajpat Nagar/National Park to read Indian magazines at the Lajpat Bhavan Library and also at the pile of old foreign magazines stockpiled outside the kabaddi shop in Guru Nanak Market/LPN-4, next door. And I was not alone, there was a generation who grew up doing that, with the shopkeeper not really bothered as long as we maintained decorum and stacked his magazines back.

Even today, with pavement dwellers and those living in slums nearby trying to spin out of their downward spirals, the habit of gathering in public places to study before exams or to read shared as well as slightly old magazines goes strong in India. And that is when weeklies cost 5 through 15 rupees and newspapers cost 2 rupees.

What happens to yesterday`s newspapers, last week`s magazines and ``returns``, and do you see, people, what I am getting at?

re: Tauheed

Here are some questions that flashed through my mind when reading your article:

1) When you say that local self-governments have improved public schools in their locality, are you referring to urban localities or rural localities?

2) In many remote areas of NWFP, the local maulvis and maliks (landlords) do not want public schools because they will weaken their hold on the people. The Nazims also rely on the support of these maliks for getting elected. Has the local self-government system addressed this potential clash of interests?

3) The provincial elections are held on party-basis, but local bodies elections are not. As a result, the party that wins a heavy mandate is unable to implement its agenda because the Nazims may resist their political agenda. Doesn`t the local government system encroach upon the mandate of the elected provincial government?

4) If we want to strengthen the Nazims, shouldn`t we make Police and district administration subservient to the Nazim (instead of Provincial government)?

mumbaiker #2 Thanks for the link.

jiyajayale #3 Couldnt agree more. That is why it is so important that district governments be given a larger share of the public sector funds - since, as I mention in the article, although it is still too early to tell, it does appear that schools sponsored by local governments actually seem to work. And moreover, it has also been demonstrated by private schools in Pakistan that when people have a choice they would rather have their children given marketable skills rather than fed islamist ideology. And your advice on investing in education is on the mark. Military expenditures are at best a necessary evil, while every penny spent on educating a child is a blessing for all concerned.

AnOrdinaryHindu #4 Thanks, glad you liked the article. If it succeeds, this introduction of democracy at the grass roots level would certainly be a major stop forward.

rozaiba #5 The fact that there are so many forces in the way of this initiative, makes the subject MORE not less important I think. And to be fair - this initiative was taken by the military government. Elected governments in past years were simply unwilling or unable to tackle the powerful CSP class. But you are right, the same military tinkering may kill this initiative. Although at this time it seems it is the provincial governments that are putting hurdles in the way of the local governments.

ahmedzai #6 Thanks for taking time off from your family reunion to write. You make an important point when you say that replacement of civil servants with elected officials is part of other structural changes taking place in Pakistan. And taken together, these changes can bring about sweeping changes in the country. These changes include improvement of relations with india with all the accompanying economic and cultural benefits; the laying down of a modern transport infrastructure (a part of which, the motorway, dost mittar commented on in his article below) with Gwadar hopefully serving as a major port for landlocked states; the empowerment of the poor through expansion of the microcredit schemes; the restructuring of external debt to reduce the debt burden; the list goes on. While there will no doubt be setbacks, I think the force of all these changes will prove irreversible over time.

On the economic front, I think a lot of credit goes to the economic team musharaff put together, who are basically dedicated people who gave up successful careers in international agencies to take on their current jobs, and from all indications they have taken the long-run view of things.

PanjabiZulu #7 Just when I was beginning to feel good about things in Pakistan, you HAD to mention my good friend Jay. But far be it from me to speak ill of him behind his back.
;-)

kaurasuch #8 I think, sir, that you are perhaps being a tiny bit too cynical of human nature. :-)

malik #9 It would certainly have been better if we had a democratic government replace the DC with elected officials. The fact is that none of the democratic governments did this. So, I think we should give credit where credit is due.

dost mittar #10 That is a good question. To the best of my knowledge, while panchayats have been useful in resolving minor disputes, they have not wielded real power. Real power has been with government officials: the patwari (who had control over the all important land titles which he could get away with fudging) and the police. With the DC gone, the head of the dragon has been chopped (and this is only a mild exaggeration), but the police and the patware remain strong as ever. I suspect the patwari will lose power once land records are properly computerized (as some states in India have done successfully, as I understand). But computerization of land records represents a major task - the technical aspects are simple, but the political hurdles are enormous.

AhmedBilal #11 There is no doubt that a change of such proportions will bring about confusion. Indeed, the provincial-district tensions that I mention in the article are a perfect example of what you say. The provinces are indeed too large. One viable alternative in my view is to simply get rid of this ``middle management`` layer of provinces since their is no real logic to them. The central government takes care of managing foreign relations, defense, monetary policy, regulatory framework, and the local government take care of law and order, health and education service delivery. Many of the things the provincial government does could probably be better done by local governments - and they would be more responsive to the people.

Zamir1 #1 Thanks for the link. This squeezing of district governments by the Sindh provincial government is clearly emerging as a problem, and is evident in that interview as well.

The idea of local governments was good in theory, but I don`t really agree with the implementation part. The government has created a mess where no one is sure of responsibilities and rights anymore. Personally, I think our provinces are too large, and they should be split into smaller (and more autonomous) administrative units. Under current system, lack of good communication infrastructure makes it very hard for common people in rural areas to get their problems solved in efficient and timely manner. Also, controversial issues like Islamic laws etc. should be left to the units of the federation under framework of a broader constitution which must ensure basic human rights.

There were a couple of interesting ideas proposed by some NGO`s for improving conditions of government schools. One of them was creation of boards comprising parents of students to oversee affairs of such schools, because they have the greatest interest in quality of education their kids are getting. Another one was to bring uniformity in syllabi across public and private schools. I am not sure how seriously those ideas are being considered by the ministry of education. From what I have seen, Higher Education Commission has been somewhat active to improve conditions of universities. But probably that discussion is beyond the scope of this comment.

tahmed32:
What`s the state of democracy at the sub-district level? Is there a level of elected govt. at the village/tehsil level, such as panchayats? Are they given any resources?

Salam to every body. I have joined the forum for a short duration taking some time off from a family reunion.

Like Tauheed has pointed out, the success of local bodies will be more pronounced in regions where the two tiers come from the same political parties. Any present imbalances between the two tiers will be sorted out by local bodies elections of next year. As I have said many times before, the success of any program can only be measured by the results.

The results this far have shown that the current Musharraf/Jamali Government is on course for providing economic prosperity to the country.

The Government of Punjab has launched an educational incentivization program for girls that will surely be followed in Sindh and non MMA domination areas of the NWFP. On other fronts, the Government is addressing short-term, medium term and long-term issues. It is trying to boost construction for providing more jobs to people (short-term), is trying desparately to make Pakistan a member of various regional organizations (short-term/medium-term), is looking to develop water resources (medium-term), is looking into energy resources that will be needed by a developed Pakistan say 25 years from now (long-term), etc.

I bet you a hundred pounds that by post number 20 Jay has made an appearence on this thread that starts with the lines:

another pathetic article by the mullah tahmed trying to deny the TNT and K for Kaffir blah blah blah

;-)

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This is unbelievably simplistic view of an an unbelievably enormous mess in what is termed as ``local governments`` of Pakistan. The merits of Nazim-ism aside, who really concocted this new form of democracy? When was there a national debate on the principles and guidelines that would determine the responsibilities of Nazim? The man who is the Army Chief, the President, and has several other posts to his name, and who single handedly came up with these ideas with no national debate allowed, is lecturing the nation on power sharing. What a freakin` joke !

Lets stop painting this pig in pink color - pig being the ``democracy`` the Field Marshal has blessed us with - by highlighting any positive news and overlooking the major existential issues the country faces.

Lets talk about how we can bring true democracy at the federal level. Once we have that, the local democracies will take roots without much fanfare.

We have been listening too much about the feudal nature of Pakistani society. Nice to learn about a serious effort to decentralize power.

This is not an article that it`s trying to be. It`s merely thoughts based on whimsical hopes. It should have been in your i-log entry or something like that. All this piece does is state the obvious- and this obvious was only relevant three years ago when people were first discussing the implementation of local governments and the hopes placed on them. Today, people know far more and this article doesn`t even try to add anything more.

``The central government can, of course play a major role in determining the outcome of these tensions.``

Unfortunately, the local governments, though potentially a great concept, will continue to be used and manipulated by the central government- ie faujiz- in the fight for power. Ideally provincial level governments should be gotten rid of and local governments be given financial as well as some legislative powers. But the presence of provincial government is necesary to create the multi-layered governance set-up vital for allowing the military to manipulate the country which ever way they want. Thus the intentional confusion created with holding non-party elections on one level, and allowing party-based elections on another and blurring the distinctions between who weilds what power with respect to bureaucracy and the local governments and provincial government as well. This blurring and confusion could easily have been avoided but instead was intentionally pursued. It has successfully crippled any process from taking shape.

Just like the 60`s, the current half-hearted bad-intentioned local government scheme has not fooled the majority. It has only fooled those few like the writer of this article.

Although the idea to give local councils more power is great and it will work in the long term, in the short term they need to solve the overlapping issues. Here is an interview with a local Nazim ( of N. Nazimabad )

http://www.pakistaneconomist.com/page/issue07/etc1.htm

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Right after the inception of Pak the religion was inserted in education system. Since then every leader has used this institution for his/her benefit. It is very unfortunate that this took place because Pak had bright prospects in 1947. It was the biggest muslim country, and had diversity that India and United States has. However, regrettably the novice leaders were in no position to understand sensitive differences among different groups in the two wings. Which appeared in a big way in 1971. At present i advice Pak to invest in education. India invests in education and, though it`s not in the best form it still is education. Ay form of education, in my opinion, i sbetter than mullah form of education. Since Pak is a small country it obviously does not have as big assets as United States or India to spend on educatio, however it could divert money from military budget for education. This, i think. is a critical phase in the survival of this most hospitable nation (people are so warm and welcoming), and the better job Pak does the better its future would be. Mullahs are friends of no one and as we have seen they could turn against anyone whoever refuses to live by their doctrine. Co-existance is not in their dictionary. If anyone has doubts please look in Pak backyard, Iran or read the book ``Reading Lolita in Tehran.`` Down with mullahs!!