Tauheed Ahmed May 6, 2004
#1 Posted by JiyaJale on May 6, 2004 1:24:02 pm
Right after the inception of Pak the religion was inserted in education system. Since then every leader has used this institution for his/her benefit. It is very unfortunate that this took place because Pak had bright prospects in 1947. It was the biggest muslim country, and had diversity that India and United States has. However, regrettably the novice leaders were in no position to understand sensitive differences among different groups in the two wings. Which appeared in a big way in 1971. At present i advice Pak to invest in education. India invests in education and, though it`s not in the best form it still is education. Ay form of education, in my opinion, i sbetter than mullah form of education. Since Pak is a small country it obviously does not have as big assets as United States or India to spend on educatio, however it could divert money from military budget for education. This, i think. is a critical phase in the survival of this most hospitable nation (people are so warm and welcoming), and the better job Pak does the better its future would be. Mullahs are friends of no one and as we have seen they could turn against anyone whoever refuses to live by their doctrine. Co-existance is not in their dictionary. If anyone has doubts please look in Pak backyard, Iran or read the book ``Reading Lolita in Tehran.`` Down with mullahs!!
#2 Posted by mumbaikar on May 6, 2004 1:24:02 pm
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#3 Posted by zamir1 on May 6, 2004 1:24:02 pm
Although the idea to give local councils more power is great and it will work in the long term, in the short term they need to solve the overlapping issues. Here is an interview with a local Nazim ( of N. Nazimabad )
http://www.pakistaneconomist.com/page/issue07/etc1.htm
http://www.pakistaneconomist.com/page/issue07/etc1.htm
#4 Posted by rozaiba on May 6, 2004 1:24:19 pm
This is not an article that it`s trying to be. It`s merely thoughts based on whimsical hopes. It should have been in your i-log entry or something like that. All this piece does is state the obvious- and this obvious was only relevant three years ago when people were first discussing the implementation of local governments and the hopes placed on them. Today, people know far more and this article doesn`t even try to add anything more.
``The central government can, of course play a major role in determining the outcome of these tensions.``
Unfortunately, the local governments, though potentially a great concept, will continue to be used and manipulated by the central government- ie faujiz- in the fight for power. Ideally provincial level governments should be gotten rid of and local governments be given financial as well as some legislative powers. But the presence of provincial government is necesary to create the multi-layered governance set-up vital for allowing the military to manipulate the country which ever way they want. Thus the intentional confusion created with holding non-party elections on one level, and allowing party-based elections on another and blurring the distinctions between who weilds what power with respect to bureaucracy and the local governments and provincial government as well. This blurring and confusion could easily have been avoided but instead was intentionally pursued. It has successfully crippled any process from taking shape.
Just like the 60`s, the current half-hearted bad-intentioned local government scheme has not fooled the majority. It has only fooled those few like the writer of this article.
``The central government can, of course play a major role in determining the outcome of these tensions.``
Unfortunately, the local governments, though potentially a great concept, will continue to be used and manipulated by the central government- ie faujiz- in the fight for power. Ideally provincial level governments should be gotten rid of and local governments be given financial as well as some legislative powers. But the presence of provincial government is necesary to create the multi-layered governance set-up vital for allowing the military to manipulate the country which ever way they want. Thus the intentional confusion created with holding non-party elections on one level, and allowing party-based elections on another and blurring the distinctions between who weilds what power with respect to bureaucracy and the local governments and provincial government as well. This blurring and confusion could easily have been avoided but instead was intentionally pursued. It has successfully crippled any process from taking shape.
Just like the 60`s, the current half-hearted bad-intentioned local government scheme has not fooled the majority. It has only fooled those few like the writer of this article.
#5 Posted by AnOrdinaryHindu on May 6, 2004 1:24:19 pm
We have been listening too much about the feudal nature of Pakistani society. Nice to learn about a serious effort to decentralize power.
#6 Posted by malik99 on May 6, 2004 3:26:20 pm
This is unbelievably simplistic view of an an unbelievably enormous mess in what is termed as ``local governments`` of Pakistan. The merits of Nazim-ism aside, who really concocted this new form of democracy? When was there a national debate on the principles and guidelines that would determine the responsibilities of Nazim? The man who is the Army Chief, the President, and has several other posts to his name, and who single handedly came up with these ideas with no national debate allowed, is lecturing the nation on power sharing. What a freakin` joke !
Lets stop painting this pig in pink color - pig being the ``democracy`` the Field Marshal has blessed us with - by highlighting any positive news and overlooking the major existential issues the country faces.
Lets talk about how we can bring true democracy at the federal level. Once we have that, the local democracies will take roots without much fanfare.
Lets stop painting this pig in pink color - pig being the ``democracy`` the Field Marshal has blessed us with - by highlighting any positive news and overlooking the major existential issues the country faces.
Lets talk about how we can bring true democracy at the federal level. Once we have that, the local democracies will take roots without much fanfare.
#7 Posted by kaurasach on May 6, 2004 3:26:20 pm
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#8 Posted by PunjabiZulu on May 6, 2004 3:26:20 pm
I bet you a hundred pounds that by post number 20 Jay has made an appearence on this thread that starts with the lines:
another pathetic article by the mullah tahmed trying to deny the TNT and K for Kaffir blah blah blah
;-)
#9 Posted by Ahmadzai on May 6, 2004 3:26:20 pm
Salam to every body. I have joined the forum for a short duration taking some time off from a family reunion.
Like Tauheed has pointed out, the success of local bodies will be more pronounced in regions where the two tiers come from the same political parties. Any present imbalances between the two tiers will be sorted out by local bodies elections of next year. As I have said many times before, the success of any program can only be measured by the results.
The results this far have shown that the current Musharraf/Jamali Government is on course for providing economic prosperity to the country.
The Government of Punjab has launched an educational incentivization program for girls that will surely be followed in Sindh and non MMA domination areas of the NWFP. On other fronts, the Government is addressing short-term, medium term and long-term issues. It is trying to boost construction for providing more jobs to people (short-term), is trying desparately to make Pakistan a member of various regional organizations (short-term/medium-term), is looking to develop water resources (medium-term), is looking into energy resources that will be needed by a developed Pakistan say 25 years from now (long-term), etc.
Like Tauheed has pointed out, the success of local bodies will be more pronounced in regions where the two tiers come from the same political parties. Any present imbalances between the two tiers will be sorted out by local bodies elections of next year. As I have said many times before, the success of any program can only be measured by the results.
The results this far have shown that the current Musharraf/Jamali Government is on course for providing economic prosperity to the country.
The Government of Punjab has launched an educational incentivization program for girls that will surely be followed in Sindh and non MMA domination areas of the NWFP. On other fronts, the Government is addressing short-term, medium term and long-term issues. It is trying to boost construction for providing more jobs to people (short-term), is trying desparately to make Pakistan a member of various regional organizations (short-term/medium-term), is looking to develop water resources (medium-term), is looking into energy resources that will be needed by a developed Pakistan say 25 years from now (long-term), etc.
#10 Posted by dost_mittar on May 6, 2004 5:20:56 pm
tahmed32:
What`s the state of democracy at the sub-district level? Is there a level of elected govt. at the village/tehsil level, such as panchayats? Are they given any resources?
What`s the state of democracy at the sub-district level? Is there a level of elected govt. at the village/tehsil level, such as panchayats? Are they given any resources?
#11 Posted by AhmadBilal on May 6, 2004 6:28:54 pm
The idea of local governments was good in theory, but I don`t really agree with the implementation part. The government has created a mess where no one is sure of responsibilities and rights anymore. Personally, I think our provinces are too large, and they should be split into smaller (and more autonomous) administrative units. Under current system, lack of good communication infrastructure makes it very hard for common people in rural areas to get their problems solved in efficient and timely manner. Also, controversial issues like Islamic laws etc. should be left to the units of the federation under framework of a broader constitution which must ensure basic human rights.
There were a couple of interesting ideas proposed by some NGO`s for improving conditions of government schools. One of them was creation of boards comprising parents of students to oversee affairs of such schools, because they have the greatest interest in quality of education their kids are getting. Another one was to bring uniformity in syllabi across public and private schools. I am not sure how seriously those ideas are being considered by the ministry of education. From what I have seen, Higher Education Commission has been somewhat active to improve conditions of universities. But probably that discussion is beyond the scope of this comment.
There were a couple of interesting ideas proposed by some NGO`s for improving conditions of government schools. One of them was creation of boards comprising parents of students to oversee affairs of such schools, because they have the greatest interest in quality of education their kids are getting. Another one was to bring uniformity in syllabi across public and private schools. I am not sure how seriously those ideas are being considered by the ministry of education. From what I have seen, Higher Education Commission has been somewhat active to improve conditions of universities. But probably that discussion is beyond the scope of this comment.
#12 Posted by tahmed32 on May 6, 2004 7:04:35 pm
Zamir1 #1 Thanks for the link. This squeezing of district governments by the Sindh provincial government is clearly emerging as a problem, and is evident in that interview as well.
#13 Posted by tahmed32 on May 6, 2004 9:21:18 pm
ahmedzai #6 Thanks for taking time off from your family reunion to write. You make an important point when you say that replacement of civil servants with elected officials is part of other structural changes taking place in Pakistan. And taken together, these changes can bring about sweeping changes in the country. These changes include improvement of relations with india with all the accompanying economic and cultural benefits; the laying down of a modern transport infrastructure (a part of which, the motorway, dost mittar commented on in his article below) with Gwadar hopefully serving as a major port for landlocked states; the empowerment of the poor through expansion of the microcredit schemes; the restructuring of external debt to reduce the debt burden; the list goes on. While there will no doubt be setbacks, I think the force of all these changes will prove irreversible over time.
On the economic front, I think a lot of credit goes to the economic team musharaff put together, who are basically dedicated people who gave up successful careers in international agencies to take on their current jobs, and from all indications they have taken the long-run view of things.
PanjabiZulu #7 Just when I was beginning to feel good about things in Pakistan, you HAD to mention my good friend Jay. But far be it from me to speak ill of him behind his back.
;-)
kaurasuch #8 I think, sir, that you are perhaps being a tiny bit too cynical of human nature. :-)
malik #9 It would certainly have been better if we had a democratic government replace the DC with elected officials. The fact is that none of the democratic governments did this. So, I think we should give credit where credit is due.
dost mittar #10 That is a good question. To the best of my knowledge, while panchayats have been useful in resolving minor disputes, they have not wielded real power. Real power has been with government officials: the patwari (who had control over the all important land titles which he could get away with fudging) and the police. With the DC gone, the head of the dragon has been chopped (and this is only a mild exaggeration), but the police and the patware remain strong as ever. I suspect the patwari will lose power once land records are properly computerized (as some states in India have done successfully, as I understand). But computerization of land records represents a major task - the technical aspects are simple, but the political hurdles are enormous.
AhmedBilal #11 There is no doubt that a change of such proportions will bring about confusion. Indeed, the provincial-district tensions that I mention in the article are a perfect example of what you say. The provinces are indeed too large. One viable alternative in my view is to simply get rid of this ``middle management`` layer of provinces since their is no real logic to them. The central government takes care of managing foreign relations, defense, monetary policy, regulatory framework, and the local government take care of law and order, health and education service delivery. Many of the things the provincial government does could probably be better done by local governments - and they would be more responsive to the people.
On the economic front, I think a lot of credit goes to the economic team musharaff put together, who are basically dedicated people who gave up successful careers in international agencies to take on their current jobs, and from all indications they have taken the long-run view of things.
PanjabiZulu #7 Just when I was beginning to feel good about things in Pakistan, you HAD to mention my good friend Jay. But far be it from me to speak ill of him behind his back.
;-)
kaurasuch #8 I think, sir, that you are perhaps being a tiny bit too cynical of human nature. :-)
malik #9 It would certainly have been better if we had a democratic government replace the DC with elected officials. The fact is that none of the democratic governments did this. So, I think we should give credit where credit is due.
dost mittar #10 That is a good question. To the best of my knowledge, while panchayats have been useful in resolving minor disputes, they have not wielded real power. Real power has been with government officials: the patwari (who had control over the all important land titles which he could get away with fudging) and the police. With the DC gone, the head of the dragon has been chopped (and this is only a mild exaggeration), but the police and the patware remain strong as ever. I suspect the patwari will lose power once land records are properly computerized (as some states in India have done successfully, as I understand). But computerization of land records represents a major task - the technical aspects are simple, but the political hurdles are enormous.
AhmedBilal #11 There is no doubt that a change of such proportions will bring about confusion. Indeed, the provincial-district tensions that I mention in the article are a perfect example of what you say. The provinces are indeed too large. One viable alternative in my view is to simply get rid of this ``middle management`` layer of provinces since their is no real logic to them. The central government takes care of managing foreign relations, defense, monetary policy, regulatory framework, and the local government take care of law and order, health and education service delivery. Many of the things the provincial government does could probably be better done by local governments - and they would be more responsive to the people.
#14 Posted by tahmed32 on May 6, 2004 9:21:18 pm
mumbaiker #2 Thanks for the link.
jiyajayale #3 Couldnt agree more. That is why it is so important that district governments be given a larger share of the public sector funds - since, as I mention in the article, although it is still too early to tell, it does appear that schools sponsored by local governments actually seem to work. And moreover, it has also been demonstrated by private schools in Pakistan that when people have a choice they would rather have their children given marketable skills rather than fed islamist ideology. And your advice on investing in education is on the mark. Military expenditures are at best a necessary evil, while every penny spent on educating a child is a blessing for all concerned.
AnOrdinaryHindu #4 Thanks, glad you liked the article. If it succeeds, this introduction of democracy at the grass roots level would certainly be a major stop forward.
rozaiba #5 The fact that there are so many forces in the way of this initiative, makes the subject MORE not less important I think. And to be fair - this initiative was taken by the military government. Elected governments in past years were simply unwilling or unable to tackle the powerful CSP class. But you are right, the same military tinkering may kill this initiative. Although at this time it seems it is the provincial governments that are putting hurdles in the way of the local governments.
jiyajayale #3 Couldnt agree more. That is why it is so important that district governments be given a larger share of the public sector funds - since, as I mention in the article, although it is still too early to tell, it does appear that schools sponsored by local governments actually seem to work. And moreover, it has also been demonstrated by private schools in Pakistan that when people have a choice they would rather have their children given marketable skills rather than fed islamist ideology. And your advice on investing in education is on the mark. Military expenditures are at best a necessary evil, while every penny spent on educating a child is a blessing for all concerned.
AnOrdinaryHindu #4 Thanks, glad you liked the article. If it succeeds, this introduction of democracy at the grass roots level would certainly be a major stop forward.
rozaiba #5 The fact that there are so many forces in the way of this initiative, makes the subject MORE not less important I think. And to be fair - this initiative was taken by the military government. Elected governments in past years were simply unwilling or unable to tackle the powerful CSP class. But you are right, the same military tinkering may kill this initiative. Although at this time it seems it is the provincial governments that are putting hurdles in the way of the local governments.
#15 Posted by HisExcellency on May 6, 2004 11:05:51 pm
re: Tauheed
Here are some questions that flashed through my mind when reading your article:
1) When you say that local self-governments have improved public schools in their locality, are you referring to urban localities or rural localities?
2) In many remote areas of NWFP, the local maulvis and maliks (landlords) do not want public schools because they will weaken their hold on the people. The Nazims also rely on the support of these maliks for getting elected. Has the local self-government system addressed this potential clash of interests?
3) The provincial elections are held on party-basis, but local bodies elections are not. As a result, the party that wins a heavy mandate is unable to implement its agenda because the Nazims may resist their political agenda. Doesn`t the local government system encroach upon the mandate of the elected provincial government?
4) If we want to strengthen the Nazims, shouldn`t we make Police and district administration subservient to the Nazim (instead of Provincial government)?
Here are some questions that flashed through my mind when reading your article:
1) When you say that local self-governments have improved public schools in their locality, are you referring to urban localities or rural localities?
2) In many remote areas of NWFP, the local maulvis and maliks (landlords) do not want public schools because they will weaken their hold on the people. The Nazims also rely on the support of these maliks for getting elected. Has the local self-government system addressed this potential clash of interests?
3) The provincial elections are held on party-basis, but local bodies elections are not. As a result, the party that wins a heavy mandate is unable to implement its agenda because the Nazims may resist their political agenda. Doesn`t the local government system encroach upon the mandate of the elected provincial government?
4) If we want to strengthen the Nazims, shouldn`t we make Police and district administration subservient to the Nazim (instead of Provincial government)?
#16 Posted by veeresh on May 6, 2004 11:21:37 pm
Thank you Tauheed, for this view of Pakistan which I simply did not get.
On the subject of education, without belabouring the issue of expensive newspapers and magazines any further, what sort of growth do you see for libraries and bookshops in non-urban Pakistan? I mean, is there enough of a hunger for the written word to justify business models of small ``lending libraries`` from typical small 50-100 square foot shops?
Let me elaborate on this - I do not know how many Indians also know the value of a 1-day old newspaper in backward parts of India, how eagerly it is sought when a train rolls in. Or how many of the big publishers/bookshops/magazine stalls in India sprang from kabadi/second hand dealer outlets. I myself, as recently as the late `60s, and we were middle-class with enough reading material at home, recall walking from Defence Colony to Lajpat Nagar/National Park to read Indian magazines at the Lajpat Bhavan Library and also at the pile of old foreign magazines stockpiled outside the kabaddi shop in Guru Nanak Market/LPN-4, next door. And I was not alone, there was a generation who grew up doing that, with the shopkeeper not really bothered as long as we maintained decorum and stacked his magazines back.
Even today, with pavement dwellers and those living in slums nearby trying to spin out of their downward spirals, the habit of gathering in public places to study before exams or to read shared as well as slightly old magazines goes strong in India. And that is when weeklies cost 5 through 15 rupees and newspapers cost 2 rupees.
What happens to yesterday`s newspapers, last week`s magazines and ``returns``, and do you see, people, what I am getting at?
On the subject of education, without belabouring the issue of expensive newspapers and magazines any further, what sort of growth do you see for libraries and bookshops in non-urban Pakistan? I mean, is there enough of a hunger for the written word to justify business models of small ``lending libraries`` from typical small 50-100 square foot shops?
Let me elaborate on this - I do not know how many Indians also know the value of a 1-day old newspaper in backward parts of India, how eagerly it is sought when a train rolls in. Or how many of the big publishers/bookshops/magazine stalls in India sprang from kabadi/second hand dealer outlets. I myself, as recently as the late `60s, and we were middle-class with enough reading material at home, recall walking from Defence Colony to Lajpat Nagar/National Park to read Indian magazines at the Lajpat Bhavan Library and also at the pile of old foreign magazines stockpiled outside the kabaddi shop in Guru Nanak Market/LPN-4, next door. And I was not alone, there was a generation who grew up doing that, with the shopkeeper not really bothered as long as we maintained decorum and stacked his magazines back.
Even today, with pavement dwellers and those living in slums nearby trying to spin out of their downward spirals, the habit of gathering in public places to study before exams or to read shared as well as slightly old magazines goes strong in India. And that is when weeklies cost 5 through 15 rupees and newspapers cost 2 rupees.
What happens to yesterday`s newspapers, last week`s magazines and ``returns``, and do you see, people, what I am getting at?
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