Complicity in Silence

tahmed32 # 80 - You wrote ``I dont need anyone`s recognition. I am my own man.``

I did not expect you to say anything different. However, putting these words into practice is where you need to focus. Playing with words and using twisted logic won`t get you out of your shackles.

When you bash ALL muslims for killing an american, but then turn around and promote an illegal war where thousands of innocent people are killed, you are nothing but a cog in the wheel of the right wing war machinery.

Unlike you, I do not have contempt for human life. Unlike you I do not give more importance to one life over another. Unlike you, I believe that a mother of 6 children killed in Iraq at a checkpoint is EQUALLY devastating for her children as the killing of a mother of 6 in WTC.

Urstruly # 77 - You are correct. However, I use the ``15,000`` figure, which is the MOST conservative of all figures, so as not to get into silly arguments with hate mongers on this board about the `number game`. These hate mongers treat even the most conservative figure of 15,000 in a casual manner. Yet, the unfortunate death of one american stops them in their tracks.

This is utter racism. Unfortunately, this racism is coming from ``browns`` for their fellow browns.

malik #78 you write ``My reading of western society tells me that it respects those who contribute new ideas to it, instead of slavishly follow what is given to them. It respects outcasts like Martin Luther King who stand up to injustce and take the beatings. It respects people like Che Guevara who show west their ugly face of colonialism. It respects people like Nelson Mandela who do not cower into delf doubt after being branded a ``terrorist``. They do not start questioning the ``goods`` and bads of aparthied system. They keep their fight. And in the end the same west who called them ``terrorist`` awards them with Noble Peace prize. Then suddenly to be seen with these men becomes a photo-op for western leaders.
You will NEVER earn west`s respect by being a slave, no matter how good a slave you are. ``

This is clear proof of what I had written - your entire existence is defined by seeking respect of the west. And you have the nerve to tell me that I am the slave?

This is what I had written in my earlier post:
``Here is a piece of advice that you may ignore or you may think about: One`s should base one`s opinions on certain basic principles, and not on the opinons of others.``

Do these sound like the words of a slave? You repeated the above and it still didnt sink into your head. I dont care what you or anyone else on chowk or the west or the east or the north or the south thinks of me. I dont need anyone`s recognition. I am my own man. I am free. You are the one who is the slave. As your para. above that I cut and paste proves.

tahmed32 # 75 - You wrote ``You quote from what some ``American`` (what are you? chopped liver?) wrote on NYT to make your case for ``ifs and buts``. Here is a piece of advice that you may ignore or you may think about: One`s should base one`s opinions on certain basic principles, and not on the opinons of others.``


I used the term american to make a point that it was not a european, or a canadian or an arab or a pakistani who made this statement.

As for your advice that I should not base my opinion on the opinion of other people, you will be served well if you act on your own advice. You are on record for arguing that some muslim women in france wear hijab because they have been ``gang raped`` into doing so by other muslims. When I clobbered you on this utter nonsense, you wrote that you based it on an article you had read ``somewhere``.

I can understand your parrotting the same refuted ``intellectual`` slavish arguments over and over again. You think that by doing so you will be accepted in the western society. Let me give you an advice now: My reading of western society tells me that it respects those who contribute new ideas to it, instead of slavishly follow what is given to them. It respects outcasts like Martin Luther King who stand up to injustce and take the beatings. It respects people like Che Guevara who show west their ugly face of colonialism. It respects people like Nelson Mandela who do not cower into delf doubt after being branded a ``terrorist``. They do not start questioning the ``goods`` and bads of aparthied system. They keep their fight. And in the end the same west who called them ``terrorist`` awards them with Noble Peace prize. Then suddenly to be seen with these men becomes a photo-op for western leaders.

You will NEVER earn west`s respect by being a slave, no matter how good a slave you are.

malik 99

Why do you keep quoting 15000 Iraqis as war casualties? According to one American organization, that based their findings only on a survey of Iraqi hospitals conducted about one month after the war was declared over, the Iraqi casualties that were reported to hospitals along with the corpses was about 18000. The number of Iraqi soldiers and civilians who fell martyr to the agression and were reduced to nothingness at front due to cluster bombs, nuclear tipped weapons and vaporized through MOABs fall well into 50-60000. Add to that the thousands that die every month due to continued Crusader`s agression. As a matter of fact Saddam nowhere nearly killed one tenth of this number of Iraqis during the 30 years of his rule that Americans have killed just in a year. Add to that the one million Iraqis who died becuase of crusader sponsored sanctions we come across a human tragedy that is only comparable to the holocaust of jews, half a century ago.

malik #74 You quote from what some ``American`` (what are you? chopped liver?) wrote on NYT to make your case for ``ifs and buts``. Here is a piece of advice that you may ignore or you may think about: One`s should base one`s opinions on certain basic principles, and not on the opinons of others.

Who cares what someone wrote on NYT or somewhere else. Are your views of right or wrong so flimsy that they change depending on whether you think the other person likes you or not?

One condemnation for one death, that too of an American doesnot a liberal Arab regime make. Arab regimes need to stop being being dictatorial, oppressive and intolerant of opposition within their countries.

tahmed32 # 68 - You wrote ``No ifs and buts and ``context`` or other excuses for murder, as malik sahib was making.``

Here is what an american is quoted as saying about Muslims in NY Times of today, May 13th, page A11:

``... Lets kill them all. Let’s wipe them off the face of the earth. This is war, even though a lot of people don’t realize it.``

hmmm...do you see my point? There are no ifs and buts and ``context`` or other excuses in his statement either. Exactly like you. And by the way, he does not seem to be making any exception for people like you either !

CONTEXT is important. We are shocked at the killings of an american. But we are also shocked by the killings of 15,000 Iraqis. We need to see his killing in the CONTEXT of an illegal invasion which has brought death and destruction to thousands of peaceful people all over the world. Even the americans are waking up to it. Yet, the ``holier than pope`` people like you are still clinging to your lies.

tahmed32 # 68 - You wrote ``No ifs and buts and ``context`` or other excuses for murder, as malik sahib was making.``

Here is what an american is quoted as saying about Muslims in NY Times of today, May 13th, page A11:

``... Lets kill them all. Let’s wipe them off the face of the earth. This is war, even though a lot of people don’t realize it.``

hmmm...do you see my point? There are no ifs and buts and ``context`` or other excuses in his statement either. Exactly like you. And by the way, he does not seem to be making any exception for people like you either !

CONTEXT is important. We are shocked at the killings of an american. But we are also shocked by the killings of 15,000 Iraqis. We need to see his killing in the CONTEXT of an illegal invasion which has brought death and destruction to thousands of peaceful people all over the world. Even the americans are waking up to it. Yet, the ``holier than pope`` people like you are still clinging to your lies.

new rules of engagement,

The so called whole world is outraged with the pictures. But what is forgotten is that the world is entering a new war, a war on terror, a war between the soldiers of god, translated literally as lasker e toiba and soldiers of mortals. There is no more an identifable enemy, it is hidden and supported cladestinely by the so called soldiers of nortals. Take the case of pakistan, taliban fighters, the soldiers of god are fighting mere mortals in afghanistan. Pak soldiers are allowing them to settle in pakistan, while a political leader is sent out of the country.

The new war is charectarised by proxy war, it is essentially like all wars, fight between two ideologies, islamic and democracy. The islamic countries are the supporters of this proxy war, it is in their shadows that the laskers flourish. This new war needs new rules of engagement. Iraq war is the first major one of this new war. It needes guantanamo bay, may be some refinements to other containment systems. The pictures are the early indications of this evolution.

This is a new war, it will go on for a long time. A good example is kashmir. The romairs talk about freedom for kashmiris. The amnesty talks about ill treatment in kashmir. But the fact is that there is no organisation that talks of freedom for kashmir. The infiltrators are lasker e toiba, jaish mohammed, hizbul mujahideen, all are soldiers of god. They are essentiallt fighting to create an islamic system in kashmir, like in pakistan complete with hoodood and honour killings. No organisation nake kashmir freedom fighters will get no support from muslims. Kashmir is a frontier of this new war. We need new rules of engagement and new sensibilities.

Even the arab governments themselves are beginnging moving beyond some chowk posters here:

This is what the saudis had to say about this heinous murder of Nick Berg: ``The Al-Zarqawi group is a criminal, deviant and un-Islamic group, allied with bin Laden and the criminals of Al Qaeda who are killing even Muslims and Arabs for no reason. Accordingly, it is not out of character for them to commit acts that violate the teachings of Islam, a noble religion that deplores such acts.``

No ifs and buts and ``context`` or other excuses for murder, as malik sahib was making. This proves that many chowk pakistanis are among the most backward of muslims. They are clueless about the peaceful teachings of Islam, the religion that these terrorists claim to represent.

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Diablo: You are wrong in generalizing about muslims. All of us are not the two-faced types you refer to - see my posts below for example. I fully agree that it is hypocritical on the part of many muslims who flock to the west and then bad mouth it for no reason.

I find it fascinating that many Indians who come to chowk come seething with hatred and a need to put down muslims. The handful of irrational muslims who of their kind tend to focus their bile at the west instead and seem to treat hindus as a joke. What the hell is going on here!! ;-)

``It would have been such an apt argument in the medieval times and would have justified so many wars. The Romans whilst invading nations across the known world, use to send home stories of the chivalry and brave acts of their representative armies. The stories established the legionnaires as honourable men who did brave things and brought civilisation to those half human savages. ``

That privilege is reserved for the Caliphs, Qasims, Ghaznis, Taimurs, Abdalis of course(sarcasm). The point being, your description fits all wars, not just those selected by you. It also fits the description of Saddam`s wars, btw.

The US shouldnot have gone to Iraq. The attitude of a number of American civilians and soldiers towards Iraqis as people who can be bullied is sick, as are the photos. For all his empty rhetoric, George Bush after declaring the war over a long time ago, has never addressed the Iraqi people directly(or he has done it only once). He and others obviously consider Iraqis to be people on the other side, enemies who are at war with the US. Hey, if you hadn`t invaded their homeland, they wouldnot need to be at war with you, did the US adminstration think of that?

Given that, I will not judge the US against one standard and Arab regimes against another standard. Why should there be double standards? That sort of hypocrisy needs to end. When this issue of `Muslim` and `Arab` anger is raised, does anyone ask, when Saddam Hussain did much worse for 30 years, where was this `Muslim` and `Arab` rage for 30 years?

What is troubling about these incidents is that they make it harder to get Iraq to a stage where it can govern itself, and GW and co`s cowboy attitudes with respect to the whole enterprise is to blame.